BRD/MCH look here

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Here is how they're looking at it you want damage near the other dps suck it up and get into WM They're dead set on making use WM and GB and that won't change anytime soon.

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except...you wont have anywhere near the damage any other class has...even if your total dps jumped 10%(which it wont cause potency nerfs and you wont be in WM 100% of the time because of movement) you'd still be lagging behind other classes by 250'ish or more dps... All this change accomplished was forcing more WM/GB down the throats of brds/mchs that never wanted these stances in the first place. I'd happily give up WM for another support song that buffed the party and let me go back to 2.x bard play style rather than be a bad/lazy rip off of blm's play style.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

Check the fixed bugs section.

An issue wherein the effect of the bard action “The Warden's Paean” would not activate under certain conditions.

This could mean that WP blocks effects that aren't esunable now.

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I highly doubt that. Its more likely to let us ignore some more stuns and some poisons. What I want for that ability is to let me warden boss mechanic abilites that are certain death enfeeblements. To make it feel as real warden and not as some enchated folk medicine wich may or may not work, based on the placebo effect your brain is currently under.

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

We BRD's don't care about catching up to the DPS levels of other classes! BRD is a support class! If a BRD does not know that, there are serious problems! I have as much fun trying to max out my dps in raids with no regards to other DPS classes, cos we are bloody support. I like singing Foes and Ballad to support my team, even if it means I lose my own DPS. That's what a BRD is suppose to be.

Sure there may be people before who once complained that BRD's have low DPS comparatively, then I say they are playing the wrong class. If I want to stand on one side and cast skills, I'll go and play BLM! But I want to play BRD, not a hybrid Red Bard...

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I hear you man, but its hard for me to just drop BRD entirely since I love the class so I'll probably just force myself to get used to this new style just in case they leave them them as is.

People have to keep in mind that the 10% increase on WM negates the potency loss somewhat. Sidewinder becomes a 95 potency loss, sure. Empyreal Arrow is only 2 potency though because 240 * 1.2 = 288 whereas 220 * 1.3 = 286. So that's not even worth mentioning. Considering all other skills are buffed by 10%, I think this'll be a nice improvement, plus the obvious stancedancing benefits.

Same for MCH, really - Gauss Round loses 6 potency. Ricochet will be a little more noticeable though.

Anyone being "250ish or more dps" behind other jobs just weren't doing it right, even before this patch.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

If the job was intended to be that way from the start, I would probably agree. The fact is that from 2.0 up until 3.0 that's not how the job was intended to play, MCH you could make the argument, BRD is a different story.

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Finally someone with logical sense, players like Lunar are a plague here. For any longterm BRD's, these changes are *meteoractuallylandedinff7whichkilledeveryone* bad.

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

Finally someone with logical sense, players like Lunar are a plague here. For any longterm BRD's, these changes are *meteoractuallylandedinff7whichkilledeveryone* bad.

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simple fix is to not use it and eat the damage loss

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

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There is no support class. It is a dps class. You are playing the wrong class if you want to support. I suggest you play a healer. Bards are for the most part a dps class, that has a supportish song, at a heavy cost of damage. Just because they have songs does not mean they are support, as other classes give +crit and amazing buffs that I can argue are just as powerful and needed as bard songs. This support class stuff has to end. Even the devs said it, but people still don't understand. When will it die?

With that being said, caster bard blows.

Well bard and machinist are now officially dead to me, guess I'm going back to my old summoner.

And before anyone jumps to conclusions, no its not because of the damage or the movement, its because i chose to play bard because i liked support and ranged classes and i hate cast timers, especially for a job that was initially designed without cast times. If I'm being forced to play a bow mage i might as well play something that was designed as a caster in the first place.

Would have much preferred them to go with an ability similar to 1.0s dragoons power surge or the 2nd boss from sastasha hard, something like where after standing still and performing so many weapon-skills, you got an attack buff that disappears as soon as you move and maybe gave you a debuff for 15 seconds after moving before you could start getting stacks again.

I already do that, I haven't used it in any occasion since I first tried it out at lvl50. I don't mind the damage loss, but that's NOT the issue.

This is going to create 2 factions in the core BRD system. The NON-Minuet and Minuet stance factions. This might lead to something similar to console wars where each side tries to flame each other down. I'm not saying this WILL happen, but if there are others like me; then there is a fair chance that it will. I don't want to see something like this happen to my beloved BRD...

WTH?.....are 1$!$!$ kidding me SE?

new BRD and MCH rotation

both will have casting times and MCH needs a proc for the 2nd


https://boardgametime.files.wordpres...table_flip.jpg


༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ BUFF BRD / MCH OR RIOT ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Yay! I'm really excited about the changes to gauss barrel.

I feel like this is going to be a good overall increase to MCH damage even with the potency hit

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Originally Posted by Lyaha

I don't see how the extra 10% is gonna make up for heavily nerfing the new abilities, it's bad enough our play style gets changed, now we get even more punished in movement heavy fights.

So much for positive changes.

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It's not only 10% but the skill casting times have been greatly reduced by alot, allowing maximizing dps.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

There is no support class. It is a dps class. You are playing the wrong class if you want to support. I suggest you play a healer. Bards are for the most part a dps class, that has a supportish song, at a heavy cost of damage. Just because they have songs does not mean they are support, as other classes give +crit and amazing buffs that I can argue are just as powerful and needed as bard songs. This support class stuff has to end. Even the devs said it, but people still don't understand. When will it die?

With that being said, caster bard blows.

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Maybe if you mained BRD as a long-term raid class, played since launch... then maybe I'll hold your opinions viable. Unfortunately, it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by gzuscry

I highly doubt that. Its more likely to let us ignore some more stuns and some poisons. What I want for that ability is to let me warden boss mechanic abilites that are certain death enfeeblements. To make it feel as real warden and not as some enchated folk medicine wich may or may not work, based on the placebo effect your brain is currently under.

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I could legitimately see it stopping the application of a vulnerability debuff.

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

I already do that, I haven't used it in any occasion since I first tried it out at lvl50. I don't mind the damage loss, but that's NOT the issue.

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I don't think it will be that bad. The problem is not the people who are playing the brd, but what the community thinks we offer them in groups. How often have you needed to use your support songs in group play? We will see how badly it will be needed in the new raid, but so far the mp is crazy high, and healers not been needing songs.

Point is that what we bring to groups is dps, and if we still can't do that well after the changes. We are going have a long drawn out wait.

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

Maybe if you mained BRD as a long-term raid class, played since launch... then maybe I'll hold your opinions viable. Unfortunately, it doesn't.

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I was a bard main from 2.0 until ninja was released the play style you love so much got us nerfed hard and this is SE way of giving some of that back to us but at the cost of movement and is also one of the reasons the limit break system got changed

Personally, I find the idea of nerfing any BRD/MCH skill at this point completely laughable with the numbers they are pulling right now. That said, I guess we can only hope the changes result in at least SOME net gain for the classes involved.

Welp, time to throw my bow into a river

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

Maybe if you mained BRD as a long-term raid class, played since launch... then maybe I'll hold your opinions viable. Unfortunately, it doesn't.

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Well good thing I don't need to hold yours also right? Because what the devs feel the class is, and how they design it means more than you living in your own world and label a class what it is not.

Get over it. You have nothing to back your statement of bards being a support class. You have no grounds to stand on. Time for you to understand that you are a dps class, and should care about what dps you do.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

I was a bard main from 2.0 until ninja was released the play style you love so much got us nerfed hard and this is SE way of giving some of that back to us but at the cost of movement

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Um... sorry I actually cannot catch what you are trying to say...

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but are you saying that NIN got nerfed because of BRD and this is how they are returning the favor? Nerf=Core change?

Maybe it's because I played blm but I'm not understanding the problem people had with having WM on and moving in fights. The cast time isn't even that long....hell fire 1 is longer than WM.

Though in fairness blm taught me how to clipcast like it's nothing so I only noticed a dps increase in WM and a loss without it.

I'm glad they buffed it though and made it stance :0

Please don't attack me ;-;

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

Um... sorry I actually cannot catch what you are trying to say...

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but are you saying that NIN got nerfed because of BRD and this is how they are returning the favor? Nerf=Core change?

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No what I'm saying is the reason they made it to where stacking classes made the limit gauge go slower is partly becasue of bard

Here is how the groups looked like in 2.0
BRD/BRD/BLM or SMN/Melee for dps and that's only for the limit break if Bard would of had the limit they have now wouldn't be surpised if it would of been all bards as the dps comp
double paladin tank
then healers.

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Originally Posted by Noira

Maybe it's because I played blm but I'm not understanding the problem people had with having WM on and moving in fights. The cast time isn't even that long....hell fire 1 is longer than WM.

Though in fairness blm taught me how to clipcast like it's nothing so I only noticed a dps increase in WM and a loss without it.

I'm glad they buffed it though and made it stance :0

Please don't attack me ;-;

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The reason I don't like it is because it changes the play style. I enjoyed bard because of the power of movement, and tossing out songs when need be. Even if it lowers my dps.

Now, I am a caster, who loses movement, and still toss out songs that lower my dps. I figure the trade off for songs was lower damage, but still the play style is around.


So a fun play style got changed for what? I don't understand what we gained from it.

Bard abilities were never nerfed, cross class buffs IR and B4B were nerfed for any class/job using them that were not main jobs.

On Bard before tonight, the only thing that made Wanderer's Minuet worthwhile was Iron Jaws, learned at L56. The 20% buff & Empyrial Arrow basically counteracted the loss of auto-attacks. Of course, you needed to be using Iron Jaws efficiently and keeping it going. Every time the DoTs fell off, or you had to move, things slipped back towards 2.0-mode.

The loss of 100 potency on Sidewinder is moot, because it's on a 60s recast. The loss of 20 potency on Empyrial Arrow is even less of a loss. The additional 10% buff is the big changer and is what will entrench the use of Wanderer's Minuet in endgame content.

As someone who really liked having the downtime-preventing mobility in exchange for lower dps, it's not the change I was looking for. Unless something ticks for me quite strongly soon, I'm dropping it.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I don't think it will be that bad. The problem is not the people who are playing the brd, but what the community thinks we offer them in groups. How often have you needed to use your support songs in group play? We will see how badly it will be needed in the new raid, but so far the mp is crazy high, and healers not been needing songs.

Point is that what we bring to groups is dps, and if we still can't do that well after the changes. We are going have a long drawn out wait.

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From what I understand, the healers are going to run out of MP just as much as in 2.X, or even faster since Piety is nerfed (according to what I've heard). We haven't gotten into raids yet, and that's where it will really be needed...

Also, unless you have 2 ninjas in you static, you will need TP regen. It's not like we last longer now... in fact, unless you're using TP regen on MNK(losing attack), all melee jobs runs out at the same time or faster than 2.X.

Some players have recently proven that at least MCH can do more DPS than what the majority of players say. Some of the numbers from Ravana EX is pretty good.

MCH and BRD are utility DPS jobs, and you don't really go into raids without one. You don't need the utility that other DPS jobs brings, it just helps you, but in most cases, you need a MCH/BRD... That's the difference, and that's why they have lower DPS.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Well good thing I don't need to hold yours also right? Because what the devs feel the class is, and how they design it means more than you living in your own world and label a class what it is not.

Get over it. You have nothing to back your statement of bards being a support class. You have no grounds to stand on. Time for you to understand that you are a dps class, and should care about what dps you do.

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You do know that BRD's used to top dps charts at launch and the DEVS were just like nope.avi, BRD's are a support class, NERF.avi;

Oh wait you don't.

Edit;
You should really stop talking if you know what's good for you.

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Originally Posted by Noira

Maybe it's because I played blm but I'm not understanding the problem people had with having WM on and moving in fights. The cast time isn't even that long....hell fire 1 is longer than WM.

Though in fairness blm taught me how to clipcast like it's nothing so I only noticed a dps increase in WM and a loss without it.

I'm glad they buffed it though and made it stance :0

Please don't attack me ;-;

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Having to stand still to use abilities in the same fashion as blm is not the problem most people have, its the fact that a lot of people picked the job for its playstyle. A playstyle in which most of its abilities were instant cast. To suddenly have this turned around to be completely opposite is what many people take issue with.

Imagine playing a dragoon for 2 years and then suddenly having cast timers added to all your abilities. I could almost guarantee that most people would also have an issue with that.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

That's true, but if you look at the changes he seems to have addressed what he posted about (except tWP).

1. The clunkiness of WM/GB [Made them insta-cast with a CD instead of channeled]
2. There was no clear advantage to be in WM/GB did comparable damage outside of stance [Doesn't look like they actually increased our damage they juggled the numbers around a bit so it's a punishment to not be in the stance]

It's possible that the changes will add to DPS, but at least from what it looks like, that wasn't their intention. Looks like it is basically nerfing the numbers on abilities but buffing the stance slightly to get us where we were before but needing to utilize the stance to do so (unlike prior where you could get close to stance numbers outside of the stance).

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

In addition to making adjustments so that the effect of this ability is fitting right after you learn it, we will be making it easier to switch into and out of Wanderer's Minuet and eliminating the current aspects that make it difficult to use. At the same time we will be paying close attention to the balance of each skill so the damage output at level 60 does not largely increase.

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I think its pretty clear he wanted DMG to go up a little bit. It seems they wanted us to use GB/WM more. If they didn't nerf our damage a bit, with the 30% damage (which is a permanent b4b added to it) our damage would creep onto casters DPS, and we do not want or need that. Class balance!

Bards are not meant to be support class. Up until Machinists, they're the only ranged melee, with mostly support for casters with Mage Ballad. I never found Army's Peon to be as useful for melee vs. Mage Ballad for healers.

When I got the new abilities (WM, EA, SW), I was happy that they looked like they're somewhat catching up to in DPS. Granted, Bards won't be cannons like BLM or do as much/fast DPS as melee. But now I think Square just pretty much kicked the class to the curb with this stupid nerf. The biggest being the 2 dots and Sidewinder. No matter what the 10% increase does, the nerf to the dots (if I calculate it from the original numbers) is 30%; that 10% increase from WM isn't going to compensate that loss. And Sidewinder with at 28.6% DPS loss; also keep in mind the CD for Sidewinder is 1 minute. It's not a skill with a 30-45 second CD.

I don't know what SE is doing but this nerf is just STUPID and they're starting to remind me of Blizzard...this is just BS.

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

You do know that BRD's used to top dps charts at launch and the DEVS were just like nope.avi, BRD's are a support class, NERF.avi;

Oh wait you don't.

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I don't think launch is a good time to really gauge what the jobs were capable of to be fair. I'd need to see math stating that melee DPS and casters were unable to put out the same numbers, not that players hadn't figured out how yet.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

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We shall see. I am hoping that is the case, as I like that element of the game also. I just wish they would not have made the two classes mirrors of each other, and change the play style of brd. Since my wife plays a healer and wants to do some raids. I will see how the mana goes, and work on things with her.

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Originally Posted by Sephknite

I never found Army's Peon to be as useful for melee vs. Mage Ballad for healers.

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If you are playing more Ballad than Paeon then something seems wrong.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

I don't think launch is a good time to really gauge what the jobs were capable of to be fair. I'd need to see math stating that melee DPS and casters were unable to put out the same numbers, not that players hadn't figured out how yet.

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It's the same thing here, launch of Heavensward. Other classes got 'add-ons' to their gameplay, BRD's got a new Job, I call it the Red Bard (all bad puns aside), this wasn't what most people were expecting ever since news of the expansion were first announced and that was back in 2013.

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

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Who do you think you are? I should stop talking if I know what is good? You have made no points at all. Even this point you are trying to make is the dumbest thing ever. Class changes always happen, and balance always happen. Just because you got nerfed on dps does not mean you still not a dps class. Where the heck did this support theory even come from? Just because of powerful support songs? So what? How about all the support that other dps classes give also? That people can argue they add just as much as our songs. Yet, they don't think of themselves as support. Until a dev comes out and says. This is a support class, nothing you say matters on the subject. You are a dps class not support.

Wait, are you people still complaining after we get a flat out 10% increase in damage? Guys, seriously?

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Originally Posted by Torunya

Wait, are you people still complaining after we get a flat out 10% increase in damage? Guys, seriously?

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I think most people just don't like being a caster bard. Myself also, but I am accepting it..since I feel like with the changes the devs are at least trying to meet us half way. Even though I don't like it. We shall see how it plays out.

To Wavaryen -

I have decided to block you and I can no longer see your posts. I may have said too much on my side, I can accept that but without apologies. I hope you do the same to keep this conversation as light as possible.

Have a good day.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I think most people just don't like being a caster bard. Myself also, but I am accepting it..since I feel like with the changes the devs are at least trying to meet us half way. Even though I don't like it. We shall see how it plays out.

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Apparently. I personally love the hell out of Machinist, but I seem to be in the minority.

Thats fine, and I doubt you will see this..but I hate that people can't agree or disagree without feelings getting hurt, or needing to ignore someone because of it. I felt no hard feelings toward your two cents. I just wanted facts about your claim,since you been here at the start as you so said.Telling me I should stop if I know what is good, and the points you made told me nothing, and the fact just because I am a new bard you devalue my personal views on the matter was kinda uncalled for. I derailed this thread enough, and sorry op.