The Paladins lack of an AOE Emnity attack.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

More STR increases the power of Flash too, as well as Circle of Scorn, and you'll be doing more damage and finishing pulls faster this way. EVERY good tank, whether Warrior, Dark Knight, or Paladin, should have two sets of trinkets (Assuming they aren't using melded crafted trinkets) to switch in and out of for heavy damage and heavy health.

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Just wondering, has anyone actually parsed their dps in AOE trash pulls (note, not single target boss fights, but AOE situations) with STR accessories and VIT accessories and proven that there's a significant dps increase? With only CoS, a 250 potency skill that we use probably only once in a pull, I find it hard to believe that our dps would change much with full STR accessories.

After flash->CoS->flash OGCD weaving Has anyone tried multi-doting with Goring blade? Obviously flash doesnt interupt combos so could act as a filler and you gain mana back as you refresh dots on new targets, perhaps it would make skill speed worth while taking up for quicker dot set up. Just an idea~

I think PLD is fine as is. If I were to make any changes to AE enmity, I would just give flash or CoS (but not both) +1 to their enmity modifiers. Just to give less geared players a bit of a fighting chance against well geared dps.

turning an existing paladin ability into an aoe would just lower their dps, are aoes really so good that you'd want to be weaker in exchange? lol

I think it should be stance based on Circle of Scorn

Shield Oath- Each tick adds enmity plus dmg

Sword Oath- The Potency of the DoT overall is increased .....there problem solved

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

After flash->CoS->flash OGCD weaving Has anyone tried multi-doting with Goring blade? Obviously flash doesnt interupt combos so could act as a filler and you gain mana back as you refresh dots on new targets, perhaps it would make skill speed worth while taking up for quicker dot set up. Just an idea~

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That's exactly what I do, save Swipes for any mob that DPS are singling out. Sometimes I'll have to Halone if the DPS are sloppy and not watching their agro.

#2 Reason why I am not fond of Paladin. Not very effective at AoE Threat, or just threat at all. Remember all the patch buffs Paladins got compared to the warrior? I don't care who made what work before the patches, none of it was decent. Otherwise they wouldn't have been buffed in the first place.

(#1 Reason is over relying on over minute long CDs and RNG passives to save them, so Thank you HW for adding Shelltron cause PLDs NEED it)

Their AoE damage is down right inept, meaning that things will take longer, no matter how you go about it. The problem rears its ugly head in cases where a large number of enemies is unavoidable. That number by the way is larger than 4. It's even worse when your stuck with Monks.

I'm disappointed that they don't even have a circle slash or simple cleave of all things. :C
Their biggest thing to enmity is annoyingly flash the light of their shining armor at you, ANNOYINGLY!

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

After flash->CoS->flash OGCD weaving Has anyone tried multi-doting with Goring blade? Obviously flash doesnt interupt combos so could act as a filler and you gain mana back as you refresh dots on new targets, perhaps it would make skill speed worth while taking up for quicker dot set up. Just an idea~

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Before CoS got patched with an increased enmity effect that it already had, it wasn't really gaining or maintaining much agro. With the Gore Blade combo you'll be applying the DoT to every new enemy every 7.5 secs after the first. By which time you've likely lost control of your primary target and/or wasted some time, especially considering how effective CoS was in the past without the enmity upgrade and that the entire Gore Blade combo also does not have an increased enmity.

I wouldn't try it.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Before CoS got patched with an increased enmity effect that it already had, it wasn't really gaining or maintaining much agro. With the Gore Blade combo you'll be applying the DoT to every new enemy every 7.5 secs after the first. By which time you've likely lost control of your primary target and/or wasted some time, especially considering how effective CoS was in the past without the enmity upgrade and that the entire Gore Blade combo also does not have an increased enmity.

I wouldn't try it.

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Actually it works great.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Before CoS got patched with an increased enmity effect that it already had, it wasn't really gaining or maintaining much agro. With the Gore Blade combo you'll be applying the DoT to every new enemy every 7.5 secs after the first. By which time you've likely lost control of your primary target and/or wasted some time, especially considering how effective CoS was in the past without the enmity upgrade and that the entire Gore Blade combo also does not have an increased enmity.

I wouldn't try it.

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Sounds like someone doesn't know how to play PLD. xD

I multi-Goring in dungeons all the time and only lose aggro if I get lazy and don't Flash or spend Shield Swipe cooldowns inbetween applications.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Having Divine Veil's Barrier serve as an enmity booster fits within the meta of PLD (protection, support, > Damage).

This could also provide a great niche QoL to PLD MTs. Healers could freely HoT them before pulls, as the HoT aggro generation is overwritten by the PLD-provided Barrier.

It also adds use and utility to DV in situations where it's not always needed. Like trash mob encounters in dungeons. A Divine Veil for party-protection isn't always necessary - but PLD has incentive to still use it, if just for extra enmity.

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I really like this idea (read his initial post for the full description). not only does it fit the PLD playstyle and theme, but it also serves as a mechanism for dealing with a singular challenging DPS who consistently hits the wrong mob/all of them, etc. either an emnity buff for the PLD, or an enmity reduction for the one targeted. Both would work.

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Originally Posted by Temjiu

I really like this idea (read his initial post for the full description). not only does it fit the PLD playstyle and theme, but it also serves as a mechanism for dealing with a singular challenging DPS who consistently hits the wrong mob/all of them, etc. either an emnity buff for the PLD, or an enmity reduction for the one targeted. Both would work.

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Or se could just be cool and give PLD a STR/Vit based Holy or Holyish attack. Don't really need it, but still.

But before they do that I hope they give us blocks during casting times. QoL change and probably even more so in raids where mobs hit like a mother truck. But still would like it. ;3

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

I multi-Goring in dungeons all the time and only lose aggro if I get lazy and don't Flash or spend Shield Swipe cooldowns inbetween applications.

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In my case, dps ignoring markings and go ham on what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Sounds like someone doesn't know how to play PLD. xD

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I know how to play the job. Unlike some, I don't take it for granted just because I can make it work.

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

I multi-Goring in dungeons all the time and only lose aggro if I get lazy and don't Flash or spend Shield Swipe cooldowns inbetween applications.

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So you're teetering on the edge of being control and if you miss a flash then something is on the loose? That's not great at all.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

So you're teetering on the edge of being control and if you miss a flash then something is on the loose? That's not great at all.

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That's actually great, since I don't need to be anything except on the edge of enmity in order to do my primary function (absorbing damage over the rest of my time), which allows me to focus on my secondary function (dealing damage).

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Originally Posted by Hypie

To soothe you. No sane Warrior or DRK would take Flash as Cross.

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Lol, you even tank? Please, please, please tell me you don't.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Sounds like someone doesn't know how to play PLD. xD

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I'm not even convinced he's played with a pld, let alone as one.

There is no such thing as "being ineffective with threat". Threat is binary. You either have it, or you don't. So long as your pld is not 30 ilvls below the dps, they shouldn't be struggling to hold threat on single or multiple targets, so long as they are playing correctly. They may not be getting as big of threat leads as a war does, but threat gaps are irrelevant so long as you have it and can keep it while doing what you would normally do as a tank. Which pld do.

As for AE dmg, no one will dispute pld's has the lowest of the tanks, but that's a fair tradeoff for being the best overall MT in the game. And while their AE dmg isn't the best, it's not like they aren't doing anything at all. CoS is still pretty decent dmg, and their single target dmg is still there.

This topic makes me sick. Pld is in such a stupid good place right now yet pld divas ALWAYS want more and won't be happy till they're the ultimate solution to everything.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

This topic makes me sick. Pld is in such a stupid good place right now yet pld divas ALWAYS want more and won't be happy till they're the ultimate solution to everything.

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Nothing wrong with wanting more for your job, granted I don't always agree with the direction some jobs go, I am super pleased with the return of some of PLDs 1.0 abilities and the new DPS/Off-tank options that we've been severely lacking.

Paladin Is fine right now. They have less AE damage? Who cares? Besides spreading goring blade Is great damage since one goring is 540 potency.

What people tend to forget Is that ofc war do more ae damage but they also forget to mention that paladin has way more mitigation especially on large pull. Thus allowing paladin to take bigger pulls So it Is a trade off.

BE my guest and pull double le triple pack with Warrior using cyclone (So no IB) and wish luck to your healer which usually makes it impossible to dps while a paladin could make it possible

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Originally Posted by Sandamar

BE my guest and pull double le triple pack with Warrior using cyclone (So no IB) and wish luck to your healer which usually makes it impossible to dps while a paladin could make it possible

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Unchained + IR + Berserk + Vengeance + Bloodbath + OP spam = zzz what is damage

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

This topic makes me sick. Pld is in such a stupid good place right now yet pld divas ALWAYS want more and won't be happy till they're the ultimate solution to everything.

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I don't see what's so bad that paladins want to have AT LEAST ONE aoe enmity skill that doesn't have a long cooldown. Have you ever tried to get aggro from a WAR who's spamming Overpower by flashing? I did and it's just impossible.
Enmity is also generated by your DPS, you know, and Flash is not even an attack which makes it very hard sometimes to hold aggro by just flashing with overgeared DPS in your party while with Overpower most of the time it's not a problem at all.
And now there are dark knights with another spammable enmity aoe. Feels kind of unfair, especially considering that both WAR and DRK can use Flash as cross skill.

On the paper Yeah in fact everything will BE off before Monster are dead. And you are off for 2-3 minutes Woot
Have you even tried? I have both pld and war i181 and i would rather do big pull anyday with paladin. Especially with a random healer.

Warrior just gets raped atm with i180 if you go for 8+ Monster that´s the truth nothing to argue on that and your healer can forget dpsing

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Originally Posted by Lumivyory

Have you ever tried to get aggro from a WAR who's spamming Overpower by flashing? I did and it's just impossible.

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Why would you ever try that?

Flash generates 600 enmity. Overpower is 120 potency x5 = 600 enmity. A PLD's Flash is more than enough to hold any amount of mobs in any dungeon, if you're losing aggro then that's your fault (or your gear's). The difference is that Overpower is affected by stuff like Berserk so it'll generate a little more enmity, but hey, if PLDs are going to claim they're far better at MT it's only fair WAR does something else better.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

This topic makes me sick. Pld is in such a stupid good place right now yet pld divas ALWAYS want more and won't be happy till they're the ultimate solution to everything.

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Won't be satisfied until I get everything everyone else has and more. :sarcasm:

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Originally Posted by Launched

Why would you ever try that?

Flash generates 600 enmity. Overpower is 120 potency x5 = 600 enmity. A PLD's Flash is more than enough to hold any amount of mobs in any dungeon, if you're losing aggro then that's your fault (or your gear's). The difference is that Overpower is affected by stuff like Berserk so it'll generate a little more enmity, but hey, if PLDs are going to claim they're far better at MT it's only fair WAR does something else better.

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It was an experiment because in raids it just seemed to be really hard to take aggro from WAR as PLD without Provoke.
So with a WAR who had a bit higher gear than mine I just couldn't take aggro from him.
I don't mean to say that Flash is bad but sometimes it just feels like it's not enough. Plus aoe would really help with leveling, especially right now when all people do in fates is "aoe, aoe, aoe".

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Originally Posted by Lumivyory

especially right now when all people do in fates is "aoe, aoe, aoe".

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Uh....Fates are mostly hate based, you don't need to hold the mobs attention though.

2nd, Flash is probably the best thing for them since in congested servers you can use it without a target present, giving you a lead over people who have to wait for the server to load up the mobs. This also places the mob on your hate list (where the little red circles and ect show up at), you can then manually target and single target out bosses before the mob even shows up on your screen. :D

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Originally Posted by Seku

Uh....Fates are mostly hate based, you don't need to hold the mobs attention though.

2nd, Flash is probably the best thing for them since in congested servers you can use it without a target present, giving you a lead over people who have to wait for the server to load up the mobs. This also places the mob on your hate list (where the little red circles and ect show up at), you can then manually target and single target out bosses before the mob even shows up on your screen. :D

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So far neither flashing or poking them one by one gave me more than silver tho.
But hey, all I said was just personal experience and maybe I'm just really unlucky :)

Please :( Don't take flash from us! We needs it as a Dark Knight!! Not enough Unleash to go around!!! No NO I WONT STAND FOR IT! SOMEONE DO SOMETHING!!

/Panic
/Heavy Breathing
/Faint









Heh...Flash, on a Drk...That's a good one :3

My personal opinion after playing all three tank roles is that as PLD has the highest mitigation of the tanks and comparable single target DPS, so they shouldn't also get AOE damage on top of it. People already automatically assume MT roles for PLD in a lot of situations, I think they're fine where they are.

If AOE enmity is truly an issue at 60 for PLD (I can't speak with experience at 60 because I leveled DRK to max first), then adjust the enmity that Flash puts out even further than their original adjustment and tie it to the Enhanced Flash trait. That way WAR and DRK doesn't get it (not that DRK uses Flash) and PLD doesn't get damage AOEs making them the best tank for all situations (which they shouldn't be).

Never had any AOE enmity issues with pally honestly. Saying you can't take hate from a warrior without provoke is kind of a moot point considering the entire point of provoke is to take hate from other players and you have to arbitrarily ignore using it to make the point.

No issues at 60 with aoe enmity as a paladin. The exception of course is dps that want to blow everything away before I have it gathered or if I forget to check to see if a regen is on me before I pull.

Do you guys ever think you are being trolled? Said poster has a level 1 archer and..... a level 1 archer.

They didn't scale flash with level from 50-60 btw. Equip a 50 weapon as a level 60 paladin, bring a level 50 tank to the training dummy with the same ilvl weapon, both of you flash. The level 60 will be 1 autoattack ahead. Literally one autoattack (from a level 50) ahead.

Equipping a hive sword (i190) vs a dreadwyrm sword (i135) only puts me about 30% ahead of the level 50 paladin. He steals hate after the second flash. Furthermore, unlike WAR/DRK, our AOE enmity generation does not scale off of STR or cooldowns.

Putting in a bug report. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...35#post3125335

(Edit: I'm aware that Paladins are not intended to scale off of STR or cooldowns. I'm simply making a point that we have nothing to contest the massive stat inflation from level 50-60).

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Originally Posted by ArcticFang

Equipping a hive sword (i190) vs a dreadwyrm sword (i135) only puts me about 30% ahead of the level 50 paladin. He steals hate after the second flash. Furthermore, unlike WAR/DRK, our AOE enmity generation does not scale off of STR or cooldowns.

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This has to be incorrect. By upgrading from i145 to i180 weapon my threat issues vaporized. I was having to constantly RoH both enemies during split dps but now with the new i180 sword I actually am able to RA in between and keep GB up.

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Originally Posted by ArcticFang

They didn't scale flash with level from 50-60 btw. Equip a 50 weapon as a level 60 paladin, bring a level 50 tank to the training dummy with the same ilvl weapon, both of you flash. The level 60 will be 1 autoattack ahead. Literally one autoattack (from a level 50) ahead.

Equipping a hive sword (i190) vs a dreadwyrm sword (i135) only puts me about 30% ahead of the level 50 paladin. He steals hate after the second flash. Furthermore, unlike WAR/DRK, our AOE enmity generation does not scale off of STR or cooldowns.

Putting in a bug report. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...35#post3125335

(Edit: I'm aware that Paladins are not intended to scale off of STR or cooldowns. I'm simply making a point that we have nothing to contest the massive stat inflation from level 50-60).

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flash does scale off of str tho

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

There is no such thing as "being ineffective with threat". Threat is binary. You either have it, or you don't. So long as your pld is not 30 ilvls below the dps, they shouldn't be struggling to hold threat on single or multiple targets, so long as they are playing correctly. They may not be getting as big of threat leads as a war does, but threat gaps are irrelevant so long as you have it and can keep it while doing what you would normally do as a tank. Which pld do.

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I read through the entire thread, but this is definitely something I can agree with that a feel a fair amount of tanks don't quite understand.

You won't spend your entire fight doing your emnity combo -- You're missing out on damage you could be doing if you're a full bar ahead of the next guy and still going.

As DRK, I sometimes have issues with holding aggro on mobs if DPS are attacking a different mob than the one I'm on. To fix that, half the time I start a fight and I look for whichever mob is going down the fastest and focus on that, letting DPS dictate which one they want to kill first -- If they're not going to listen to me anyway, I might as well just go with the flow.

I think some dps don't care they just balls to the wall threat and expect the tank to out threat them from the get go. Not all tanks can buff up and all that like the war...sometimes I think I got to go old skool and start marking mobs.

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Originally Posted by Niurok

I think some dps don't care they just balls to the wall threat and expect the tank to out threat them from the get go. Not all tanks can buff up and all that like the war...sometimes I think I got to go old skool and start marking mobs.

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Tried that. Sometimes they follow, sometimes they don't.

DPS will attack whatever DPS wants to attack, mark or no mark, LOL