memorial service for MCH

Just finished my 10 RavEX runs. I parsed around 630 when I went all out only behind our monk that was at 690. I don't think MCH is that bad... def not bad enough to be insta-kicked from parties.
Sure gauss barrel needs work and the RNG could be changed for a better play experience nevertheless it still is a capable class.

EDIT: For mistake.

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Originally Posted by LeonarRimon

Just finished my 10 RavEX runs. I parsed around 630 when I went all out only behind our monk that was at 660. I don't think MCH is that bad... def not bad to be insta-kicked from parties.
Sure gauss barrel needs work and the RNG could be changed for a better play experience nevertheless it still is a capable class.

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I think I know why they have the RNG in there. Because split shot on its own hits HARD for a spammable opener to a combo. For example, ninja has spinning edge, which is 150 potency. We have split shot, which is 140 *1.2 = 169 or 192 with ammunition. Add in GB and it becomes about 202 potency or 230 with ammo. That's pretty damn good, especially when you add in your turret 94 potency. The RNG averages it.

If they gave us our auto-attacks back on GB, and maybe lowered the cooldown on reload a bit, I think the job would be more than fine.

The problem is that the current endgame fights don't really need the support that Machinists (and Bards!) can offer. So they're a little underappreciated at the moment.

But when it comes to raiding, there will no doubt be a requirement for TP/MP regen once more. And both MCH and BRD can forgo their turret stances and assume the roles of 'mechanic handlers' while still putting in decent DPS.

For machinists specifically, there may be mechanics/adds where heavy/bind/knockback/silence/stun are useful in dealing with. They also have the means to reduce enemy attack power by 5%, which could be a help when it comes to surviving tank busters or raid wide attacks at the lowest possible gear levels.

So, I think you should stick it out a bit longer and see what utility you can bring to the actual raids!

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Originally Posted by AxelDH

The problem is that the current endgame fights don't really need the support that Machinists (and Bards!) can offer. So they're a little underappreciated at the moment.

Snip...

So, I think you should stick it out a bit longer and see what utility you can bring to the actual raids!

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I absolutely agree. For BisEX and RavEx Mp regen were def needed and TP regen is always good.

We have no idea how alexandar mechanics will be, but if we look on past experience from coils silence and bind were key cds for T7/T9 and some others.

Lol, main reason why I choose machinist was for the rend mind and dismantle, I remember how key monk's debuff was for us when progressing through T13. (Which we really had a hard time with when we initially had no monk)

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Originally Posted by LeonarRimon

Just finished my 10 RavEX runs. I parsed around 630 when I went all out only behind our monk that was at 690. I don't think MCH is that bad... def not bad enough to be insta-kicked from parties.
Sure gauss barrel needs work and the RNG could be changed for a better play experience nevertheless it still is a capable class.

EDIT: For mistake.

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Our MNK is usually at 800+, so maybe it isn't a good idea to gauge your discrepancy versus the one you play with.

In Ravena MCH would still be behind by 200+, only way to compete is if you can get a DRG to lend you 10%.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

but but, you are not even play MCH yourself (or unlock it, when I check). Everything sound good in skill description & paper, but you gotta try it yourself

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I dont need to have it unlocked to be able to see what its able to do in the hands of a good player, and can just look to my FC mates for that- and yes they pull very very good numbers for being a SUPPORT DPS (although, you have to work hard for them)

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

I dont need to have it unlocked to be able to see what its able to do in the hands of a good player, and can just look to my FC mates for that- and yes they pull very very good numbers for being a SUPPORT DPS (although, you have to work hard for them)

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so basicly, everything you said is from other exp and not your own. When you say good number, I would like to have proof as well

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Originally Posted by ChalupaBatman

Our MNK is usually at 800+, so maybe it isn't a good idea to gauge your discrepancy versus the one you play with.

In Ravena MCH would still be behind by 200+, only way to compete is if you can get a DRG to lend you 10%.

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Aw thanks for pointing that out. I usually give that specific monk (he switched main to monk) high praise but I guess he was slacking lol.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

so basicly, everything you said is from other exp and not your own. When you say good number, I would like to have proof as well

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Are you still waiting for that proof? Because I am.

Full GB dummy parses are pretty moot at this point, considering the ones posted are typically ~50 DPS higher than their actual average. Plus, you won't be able to run full GB in primals, let alone raids.

That being said 700+ in both Bismark/Rav is very attainable and that is by no means terrible DPS in those primals.

Probably not with 1-1-1-1. . .

I've played with a few MCHs.. didn't see anything wrong. But on the other hand, DPS is supposed to work together anyway.

Yeah I think I'm hanging up my gun for the time being. It kind of loses its luster once you realize it takes you that much longer to kill anything.

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Back in ARR's beta they talked about the fact that combos as known by melee don't really fit a ranged class like archer/BRD, which is why they went with procs. I originally figured that for the sake of making the jobs different gameplay-wise, they'd design MCH with weaker attacks that are instant and heavier attacks with cast times, and perhaps interactions between shots (basically the idea behind Wildfire but expanded). Hence why I'm of the belief Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet shouldn't exist, yet they do because this is the gimmick through which you see changes in gameplay (I'm guessing to match up to the new systems added for MNK, DRG and SMN, though those systems added to gameplay rather than take away).

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I hope they revisit that logic.

RELOAD and QUICK RELOAD *don't* actually add a whole lot to gameplay. Unlike MUDRAs where you can improvise and adjust depending on the fight. All a MACHINIST can do is sit on RELOAD and wait for other COOLDOWNs to align.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

A pretty good post back at the bottom of page 3

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Thanks for your rebuttal! It is good rebuttal. I like this post.

I do agree too- I pull semi-decent numbers on the class myself, and while it takes a lot of effort, and I don't have bard experience to fall back on, the reason I stopped playing it isn't because I'm personally doing underwhelming damage; I put it aside because I don't want to drag other people I'm partying with down due to it's underwhelming damage, the community stigma against MCH as a whole, the fact that most bard skills are flat-out better like their TP/MP regens or Misery's End versus Heartbreak, the total lack of word on their situation from SE... and that last kick in the musket balls the hotfix gave us finished it.

I'm fine dragging myself down. But I don't want to ruin other people's play time because the class I enjoy is ill-balanced and dead weight. Sure, it's not as doom and gloom as some people are saying, but it's really the most depressing because there's no sign it will get any better.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Still playing it. Still gonna raid with it.

R.I.P. MCH pretenders.

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I feel bad for your party then.

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Originally Posted by RedHare

I hope they revisit that logic.

RELOAD and QUICK RELOAD *don't* actually add a whole lot to gameplay. Unlike MUDRAs where you can improvise and adjust depending on the fight. All a MACHINIST can do is sit on RELOAD and wait for other COOLDOWNs to align.

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I personally don't sit on reload... Hypercharge has a two minute cooldown, so I'll use a reload mid-way through. It makes it less boring than sitting here waiting for a full minute for things to align (or more if you're waiting on raging strikes). I'm not someone who's going to make the group wait 50 seconds before every pull so things line up perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I personally don't sit on reload... Hypercharge has a two minute cooldown, so I'll use a reload mid-way through. It makes it less boring than sitting here waiting for a full minute for things to align (or more if you're waiting on raging strikes). I'm not someone who's going to make the group wait 50 seconds before every pull so things line up perfectly.

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Same here. I only meant that that is about all a MACHINIST can do if they want to change things up. GAUSS dancing is incredibly detrimental.

Even if the damage was amazing, it'd still say it's a very uninspired design compared to what they've done with DRAGOON, NINJA, MONK, and ... *sigh* WARRIOR. I'm hoping they take it back to the drawing board. Do something more interesting with AMMO, maybe.

I remember reading this on different sites:

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"Machinists on the other hand employ the use of guns and turrets to barrage the enemy from afar, similar to Bards. A lot of their most powerful abilities require ammunition to be pre-loaded, with some costing ever increasing amounts. And with only two ways of gaining ammunition - a quick reload cooldown for one, and a longer reload ability that gives you the max of five - players will have to spend it wisely during combat. It adds a nice element of resource management that rewards intelligent thinking, which is refreshingly different from the dull ranged DPS technique of standing in one place and spamming abilities.

Their guns can also be upgraded with different barrels, trading increased firepower for increased resource costs. Their turret drones come in two flavours: a ranged gatling gun, and an AoE lightning spammer. Interestingly, they can both trade their offensive capabilities, to be turned into TP and MP generators that can affect allies in a large AoE."

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What we got is quite a bit different. No powerful abilities locked behind ammo, no real resource management, and only actual barrel that doesn't cost more resources, just roots you in place for no real gain. Makes me wonder what happened between then and now that gave us an RNG slot machine.

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Originally Posted by shanvhere

I feel bad for your party then.

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I don't. But thanks for the concern.

Anyways, asking a friend to help me determine whether the rotation idea I had yesterday was viable (the proc stacking, 2-1-3-2-3 one, with ammo this time, no Gauss), I parsed a 632.16 over 2 min 7 sec (Apparently in the first 20 seconds I peaked at 800). This was roughly within a Hypercharged Rook cycle, and somewhat forgetting Hot Shot/Lead Shot a little. As I was told, that's not terrible, nor amazing (for a lv 60 anyways.) I'm still not fully accustomed to it yet, and naturally I too ran into some RNG dead zones, but I'm pretty well satisfied with that. I expected worse, but largely due to not knowing much about parsing/being parsed.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

What we got is quite a bit different. No powerful abilities locked behind ammo, no real resource management, and only actual barrel that doesn't cost more resources, just roots you in place for no real gain. Makes me wonder what happened between then and now that gave us an RNG slot machine.

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Ugh, ammo as far as I can tell is poorly-implemented. It can't even be called a resource since it's basically a stacking buff and nothing more.

I'll admit, it's kind of hard to implement ammo as a resource.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Ugh, ammo as far as I can tell is poorly-implemented. It can't even be called a resource since it's basically a stacking buff and nothing more.

I'll admit, it's kind of hard to implement ammo as a resource.

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I mentioned NIN's MUNDRAs RE: that. People doubted they could do anything new with MELEE DPS before it debuted. I guess you don't get Lightning in a bottle twice.

Since NINJAs cast NINJITSU by performing MUNDRAs, I had hoped RELOADs would have had a similar *unique* mechanic like that. I know this is pretty out in left field. But the class plays exactly how they marketed it wouldn't. "Just spamming abilities.." That's exactly what you do. Except you watch for COOLDOWNS. Every class has that.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Ugh, ammo as far as I can tell is poorly-implemented. It can't even be called a resource since it's basically a stacking buff and nothing more.

I'll admit, it's kind of hard to implement ammo as a resource.

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It wouldn't be that hard, I think. Let's say you remove the RNG on our 1,2,3 combo and ammo is no longer used for these. Instead, you lower the potency and cooldown of Gauss Round and make it cost 1 ammo. Ricochet costs 3, but has a longer cooldown than Gauss. Then you add in another ability that costs 2 ammo, perhaps wth a cooldown somewhere in between the Gauss Round and Ricochet. You'd use your stack of ammo to use those abilities and would have to manage it so you can use Ricochet every time it's off cooldown, but rely on Gauss round or the other ability when it's not, managing your Reload and Quick Reload to give you optimum damage potential, possibly even hold rounds in the chamber while you wait for stronger abilities to come off cooldown. Perhaps they can even combo with each other or they provide a buff or debuff you need to keep up. For example, you could extend Hot Shot's duration to one minute and make it cost 2 ammo. Then take Dismantle/Rend Mind and put them into one ability (call it Double Tap or something) and make it cost ammo. Then during the fight you'll be in situations where you may have to choose-- keep up your damage buff? Save the tank with the damage reduction? Or just hit them with a Ricochet? That's resource management right there.

Obviously, my example would need a lot of tweaking to actually get right, but it's better than what we have right now, which is basically a band-aid to fix the RNG and give our main combo a minor boost and it's closer to what we were previewed than what we have now.

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Originally Posted by RedHare

I mentioned NIN's MUNDRAs RE: that. People doubted they could do anything new with MELEE DPS before it debuted. I guess you don't get Lightning in a bottle twice.

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For what its worth, Mudras are sort of an extension of the concept of combo points.

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I had hoped RELOADs would have had a similar *unique* mechanic like that. I know this is pretty out in left field.

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Well, depends on what you want from the class. If you want resource management, then make ammo slowly regen with a cap on ammo you can have in stock, have abilities either modify the rate at which ammo replenishes or work the way Reload currently does. Have one or two weak attacks that consume no ammo and the bulk of your abilities consume ammo in some way. This way your gameplay would involve pacing yourself in combat, thinking ahead in terms of when you'll have enough ammo for an ability, with Reload being a "get out of jail free" card in the even you find yourself starved for ammo and need to hit hard at that very moment. Of course, balancing DPS between this AND your turrets would be difficult.

Alternatively, you could keep the system similar to what MCH has now, but allow ammo to be selectively used. This would require changing ammo into something that alters the properties of your shots, while also reducing the number of shots that can work in conjunction with ammo (get rid of the 20 potency thing, too).

I can do about 720-740 dps on a dummy right now(at um 3 or 4 minutes), and do about 450 in bismark ex, according to some friends who have parsed me. I have the un-upgraded i170 law gun, law body/pants/belt, and 2 law accessories. I agree that this job does not feel like it has some skill involved to resource management, it's just bard 2.0 on steroids in the fact that we must simply have perfect timing on aligning CD's and use them extremely wisely. Reload and Quick reload are just another CD, they have no additional skill or difficulty to them than any other CD. We basically got a job that is almost nothing like what was described to us. What gives, Yoshi-P?

Ammo is really disappointing, it sounded like almost all skills had an added effect with it but all it is is a proc on the first two and a waste on everything else.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

For what its worth, Mudras are sort of an extension of the concept of combo points.

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Sure. Underneath every building is brick. The classes in XIV, esp. NINJA, do have their own unique meta though. As a subscription based game, that's the value-add (imho). Real variety in the classes, not just different coats of paint.

*Except* for ranged PHYS RANGED DPS. Which is why I think they ought to go back to the drawing board.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I did discover that our 1-2-3 is NOT a linear combo, as I'm sure many already knew. If you're willing to sacrifice the damage that could be done, you can easily use Slug Shot and proc Clean, go BACK and use Split, proc Slug, use your proc-Clean, use your proc-Slug, and still potentially get ANOTHER proc Clean Shot. Without Ammo. In a nutshell: 2 (proc 3), 1 (proc 2), 3, 2 (possibly proc 3 again), 3. And you could possibly do that infinitely.

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This post is really good, never thought to change my rotation always just followed the 1-2-3 pattern waiting for procs. DPSing this way i gained about 200 dps, a huge increase to what i was doing, and im in full 180 gear and after doing countless Bismark EX runs and failing because of lack of dps, i felt like giving up. now im gonna try this new style and see if it helps down the darn whale.

While I can understand stacking procs, I don't see how going 2-1-3 would give a dps increase, especially 200 like you claim. Taking into account increased action damage, split shot is equal to 168 potency. Slug shot, without a proc, is equal to only 120, but 216 when it procs. Clean shot is equal to 240. If you use Slug Shot without a proc followed by a procced Clean Shot, that's 360 potency. If you use Split Shot followed by priced Slug Shot, that's 384 potency. Any way you look at it, you lose damage. The best way to stack would be Sply Shot (proc Slug Shot)> Slug Shot (proc Clean Shot)> Split Shot (proc Slug Shot again).

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Originally Posted by Osakachan

This post is really good, never thought to change my rotation always just followed the 1-2-3 pattern waiting for procs. DPSing this way i gained about 200 dps, a huge increase to what i was doing, and im in full 180 gear and after doing countless Bismark EX runs and failing because of lack of dps, i felt like giving up. now im gonna try this new style and see if it helps down the darn whale.

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I dont know if this is serious or sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

I dont know if this is serious or sarcasm

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Probably sarcasm. I tried it and I lost some dps. It could be possible I'm just insanely unlucky, cause I also have to do atleast 8 dungeon runs of one dungeon before I see a brd/mch drop.

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Originally Posted by NoahArks

Probably sarcasm. I tried it and I lost some dps. It could be possible I'm just insanely unlucky, cause I also have to do atleast 8 dungeon runs of one dungeon before I see a brd/mch drop.

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lets take a quick look:

2-3
100 + 200 = 300 potency

1-2
140+180 = 320 potency with a chance to pop another 200

according to post the one I quote early, it will be:

2-1-3-2-3
100-140-180-200-200 = 820 potency

now imagine you have to press 2 10 time to trigger 3: 100 x10 = 1k potency, it is a 400 potency loss compare to 140 x 10

while if we follow 1-2-3 pattern

1-2-1-3-2-3

140+180+140+200+180+200 = 1040 potency

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

One minor correction-- you can't do two 3s in a row. The second one would only be 100 potency. It would have to be 2-1-3-2-3 to get 820.

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FIXED ! thank you

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

snip

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One minor correction-- you can't do two 3s in a row. The second one would only be 100 potency. It would have to be 2-1-3-2-3 to get 820.

Yoshida talking about MCH in JE interview (in french):

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Naoki Yoshida : (rire) Nous avons entendu que beaucoup de joueurs pensent que le DPS du machiniste est plutôt bas, cependant nous l'avons fait tester par l'équipe de développement et le job de machiniste peut faire de très gros dégâts. Je suis certain que beaucoup de joueurs utilisent ce logiciel pour mesurer leur DPS, mais il est possible que le logiciel ne soit pas à jour ou que la rotation des skills utilisée par l'équipe de développement et les joueurs soit différente. Nous essayons donc à l'heure actuelle de découvrir d'où vient le problème et si problème ou bug il y a réellement, bien entendu nous le corrigerons. Mais nous n'en sommes pas encore à ce stade, nous essayons juste de rechercher et analyser pourquoi cela arrive.

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the meaning of this:

- Dev team knows that player fells MCH DPS is too low, but the dev team made enough test and said MCH can do big damages.
- Its possible that players parser are unable to parse MCH DPS correctly and thats why there is a difference.
- Dev team is actually doing some test to see where this difference comes from and will patch if they find a bug explaining the DPS gap btw players parser and dev parsers.

Nothing good really and i guess MCH can prepare themselve to be exluded from Alexander during a long time.

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Originally Posted by Alkel

Yoshida talking about MCH in JE interview (in french):



the meaning of this:

- Dev team knows that player fells MCH DPS is too low, but the dev team made enough test and said MCH can do big damages.
- Its possible that players parser are unable to parse MCH DPS correctly and thats why there is a difference.
- Dev team is actually doing some test to see where this difference comes from and will patch if they find a bug explaining the DPS gap btw players parser and dev parsers.

Nothing good really and i guess MCH can prepare themselve to be exluded from Alexander during a long time.

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Oh Dear God... I remember him saying to 2.0 WAR players "you don't play it the right way" before applying those so needed buffs.

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Originally Posted by popotaro

Oh Dear God... I remember him saying to 2.0 WAR players "you don't play it the right way" before applying those so needed buffs.

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Seems history is repeating itself. Not good at all.

Well, on paper, MCH doesn't look that bad A Ninja's basic combo of Spinning Edge (150), Gust Slash (200), and Aeolian Edge (320) has a total potency of 670. For MCH we have Split Shot (168), Slug Shot (216), and Clean Shot (240) plus three turret attacks of 94 damage would give us a total potency of 906. If you're using ammo, that increases to 966 potency total, which is massive and the reason why they added proc chance. The proc chance should keep us about even with other jobs for basic combo damage. We also have a really strong DoT in Lead Shot.

So the question is, what is wrong with the rest of the class that it causes low damage? Is it the mediocre 5% damage increase from Hot Shot? Are the parsers really wrong? Is there a bug? It's hard to really play this class "wrong" as outside of the buff phase, there isn't much to it other than using the combo, refreshing buffs, and using OGCD abilities like Head Graze, Gauss Round, Ricochet and both reloads when they're up.

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Originally Posted by popotaro

Oh Dear God... I remember him saying to 2.0 WAR players "you don't play it the right way" before applying those so needed buffs.

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As someone who mained WAR and did Coil at ARR launch with an interest in playing MCH,

;_;

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

1-2-1-3-2-3

140+180+140+200+180+200 = 1040 potency

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I was just starting to experiment with this in Shiva Ex yesterday! This is great news! :D

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Still playing it. Still gonna raid with it.

R.I.P. MCH pretenders.

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THIS.

I'm not giving up on a class I enjoy.