Buff Bards or Riot

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Armies aside, many individual archers were significantly more mobile than you might think. There are historical records of archers who wielded arrows in their bow hand so they could fire them more quickly, as well as many with quivers set to the side to make them easier, and faster to draw. There are also countless tales of archers who could loose 3 arrows in mere seconds.Actually, those exist. There have been plenty of people complaining about the rubbish BLM skills, because let's face it most of the BLM unique skills suck up to 50. That you haven't seen these threads says you simply haven't been looking or have seen it and are ignoring it to suit your arguments.

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you show me anywhere on the first 5 pages of the general discussion section of a BLM complaint thread of these older useless skills. (considering these thread "should be" in their respective class threads not the general discussion but I digress.)

As for historical records, please show me these records where archers are jumping up and down, side to side spinning 360 degrees non stop firing arrows ALL hitting their target. Mind you, there is no stopping during this time until the fight is over.

Protip: you can't.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

yet 95% of people complainin about how bard is destroyed now are complaining about not being able to attack like used to while moving lolz

just to use an example some1 in the FC im in ranted and whined for good hour yesterday about how bard is utterly destroyed n not worth playing cause cant attack while moving .. wanna know the funny side of it?? his/her bard was level 51 so how would he/she know??

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To be fair, you can't just drastically change a playstyle and expect the masses to be ok with it. If people wanted to have cast times and be rooted in place they would have leveled a BLM. WM to me just seems like nothing more than a way to homogenize the class in the poorest way possible.

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Originally Posted by KyteStones

Here's the problem with these threads..you people (bards) are always jumping around running around shooting your arrows and never sitting still. This annoys me. You'd never see an archer do that (fantasy game or not). I think this is a good thing having your asses planted to the ground in order to fire your arrows efficiently instead of jumping around like you're all on PCP. If you don't like the move, don't use it.

You think I use all of my BLM spells? Like I cast freeze ever anymore. Oh wait, Lethargy? Useful on the slime in Syracus Tower and that's only to delay the slime long enough to kill. Apocostacsis? Yeah... MAYBE used once. It doesn't do that much for me to worry about.

I have plenty of moves that are useless and that I don't use. So where are my massive complaint threads about removing these useless skills and replacing them with more useful ones? Oh wait...there are none! Why? Because we learn to adapt to the class and make it better with out those useless moves.

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As a Bard who has cleared all Coils and EX Primals in ARR, let me ask you one thing:

Do you even play Bard?

Because statements like the one you made would only come from someone who has never played the class and doesn't know how its core gameplay works.

So you say "good" Bards stay still like BLMs? Wrong.

Two words:

Repelling Shot.

If you truly knew how to play Bards, then you wouldn't need any explanations.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

As a Bard who has cleared all Coils and EX Primals in ARR, let me ask you one thing:

Do you even play Bard?

Because statements like the one you made would only come from someone who has never played the class and doesn't know how its core gameplay works.

So you say "good" Bards stay still like BLMs? Wrong.

Two words:

Repelling Shot.

If you truly knew how to play Bards, then you wouldn't need any explanations.

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Why don't you look up my character data on the Lodestone. I have played every class to 50 minus the Dark knight and the Machinist. Here's where you didn't read my post correctly.

My complaint was the nonsense of jumping around constantly and moving aroudn when it is really not needed. Not to mention while doing this I have see many times people taking unnecessary hits with lame excuses because they can't sit still. Why do you need to be jumping around all the time? Why do you need to be moving during every fight? I main as a caster and I move far less than a Bard. I'm a caster I know, but seemly i take less damage than a bard because I'm not running around blaming my camera turning me around into an AOE because I feel the need to run around and jump because "i can".

So yes I have played bard, and yes I have played the 60 bard, my wife's bard. I see no issue with the move at all other than its buff. Needs to be 10 to 15% for it to be worthwhile, but overall none of the new bard changes are class breaking where the entire class has gone down the crapper.

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Originally Posted by KyteStones

you show me anywhere on the first 5 pages of the general discussion section of a BLM complaint thread of these older useless skills. (considering these thread "should be" in their respective class threads not the general discussion but I digress.)

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Why does it have to be recent to count? You think people will be complaining about WM in 2 years time? Considering those skills haven't been changed in a very long time, no one is going to ressurect a zombie thread to discuss it. The fact is, it HAS been brought up and people DID complain about it. Apocatastasis was updated as a result of these complaints. It now reduces the damage taken by magic rather than a flat elemental boost.

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Originally Posted by KyteStones

As for historical records, please show me these records where archers are jumping up and down, side to side spinning 360 degrees non stop firing arrows ALL hitting their target. Mind you, there is no stopping during this time until the fight is over.

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Obviously, creative license is used here. If you wanted everything to be historically accurate, your Black Mage would be equipped with herbs and twigs and White Mage would be a triage nurse. How fun would that be?

So instead of just arguing for the sake of arguing, bringing up points which have no relevance to the topic at hand, give some good reasons why Bard needs to be rooted considering their damage is still nowhere close to a Black Mage's output and are now suffering the same casting restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

So instead of just arguing for the sake of arguing, bringing up points which have no relevance to the topic at hand, give some good reasons why Bard needs to be rooted considering their damage is still nowhere close to a Black Mage's output and are now suffering the same casting restrictions.

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I have yet to meet a bard that can out DPS my BLM, even pre-nerfs when the class was said to be "the highest DPS output class". Instead of throwing temper tantrums at a move that was added you people need to add alternative ideas. Somewhere in the creating of this class, there was testers who verified "hey this works and damn look at that damage. Looks good to me. Ship it out" So it's not like they do this and s ay "well to hell with it, we added new moves so good enough" Ask for alternative fixes instead of screaming "IT BROKEN FIX NAO PLOX OR IT DED"

Here's an alternative right now! "Each 15 seconds you're standing still with it active, increase the damage rate 2% while adding a 3% critical chance every 3 shots"?

Give solutions. You people will never get this class "fixed" by making rant threads. They see these, laugh at all of you, and ignore them.

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Originally Posted by KyteStones

Why don't you look up my character data on the Lodestone. I have played every class to 50 minus the Dark knight and the Machinist. Here's where you didn't read my post correctly.

My complaint was the nonsense of jumping around constantly and moving aroudn when it is really not needed. Not to mention while doing this I have see many times people taking unnecessary hits with lame excuses because they can't sit still. Why do you need to be jumping around all the time? Why do you need to be moving during every fight? I main as a caster and I move far less than a Bard. I'm a caster I know, but seemly i take less damage than a bard because I'm not running around blaming my camera turning me around into an AOE because I feel the need to run around and jump because "i can".

So yes I have played bard, and yes I have played the 60 bard, my wife's bard. I see no issue with the move at all other than its buff. Needs to be 10 to 15% for it to be worthwhile, but overall none of the new bard changes are class breaking where the entire class has gone down the crapper.

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If you truly knew how to play Bards, you wouldn't need to ask why movement and mobility is an INTERGRAL part of our gameplay, and why taking that away from us is pretty much like a kick in the face.

But since you don't seem to know, I guess I can explain. Just shows that having tried out/leveled the class doesn't automatically mean you know how to play it, unlike someone who has dedicated themselves on maining the class:


Bards need mobility for the following things:

1.) Weaving in Repelling Shot during openers or combos. Since the skill is only usable in melee range, we often need to move around to chase after bosses or to position ourselves so that we don't fall off cliffs or land in AoE attacks after the skill is used. After the skill repels us far away, we would also often need to move again to readjust our positions to anticipate incoming attacks, mechanics, etc.

2.) Handling mechanics. Due to our mobility, we are often relied on to handle some mechanics during raids. Hence, it's not uncommon to see Bards attacking while moving since we all want to maintain our DPS even while handling certain boss mechanics.

3.) Maintaing our DPS even while under fire. While most other classes would need to stop attacking to dodge, Bards can continue firing even during movement. Skilled Bards can even anticipate moves and start moving BEFORE the AoE attacks or telegraphs appear and safely evade the attack long before the attack even comes. Hence, it's also not uncommon to see skilled Bards moving a lot during battle for the reason above.

As you can see, MOBILITY AND UTILITY (songs) are the key components and mechanics of Bards, NOT raw DPS. Hell, I and other skilled Bards at my FC move a lot during battle, and we rarely get hit by attacks, so what's your point?


And you say that Bards should have their core gameplay taken away just because you were paired up with some random Bards who suck at dodging?

Well, perhaps BLM should be changed so that their spells only work at melee range because I've seen a ton of BLMs who kept dying at bosses since they just stood still far away from the boss, and hence couldn't dodge those wide-cone AoEs in time. Sure you still have cast times, and now your range is short, but as long as your spell damage is buffed by 10%, it should be fine, right? Right? :)

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Originally Posted by KyteStones

I have yet to meet a bard that can out DPS my BLM, even pre-nerfs when the class was said to be "the highest DPS output class".
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Give solutions. You people will never get this class "fixed" by making rant threads. They see these, laugh at all of you, and ignore them.

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So, first you prove my point by saying what I said back to me, then you flat out ignore previous posts in this thread which have done exactly that -- offer suggestions.

The main argument here is that the damage BONUS simply doesn't cover it. It needs to be significantly higher than it is to counter the loss of mobility and auto-attacks. Even a bonus of 30% would go a long way to counteracting the balancing issues, which was already suggested had you been paying attention.

So yes, these threads tend to be a bit of a rant but a rant with good reason. None of the other classes have had such a drastic change in their gameplay post-50, so it's only expected that people are going to be a little disgruntled. Especially given the damage doesn't even cover the costs.

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Originally Posted by KyteStones

Here's the problem with these threads..you people (bards) are always jumping around running around shooting your arrows and never sitting still. This annoys me. You'd never see an archer do that (fantasy game or not). I think this is a good thing having your asses planted to the ground in order to fire your arrows efficiently instead of jumping around like you're all on PCP. If you don't like the move, don't use it.

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This guy has absolutely NO knowledge of the BRD playstyle, I'll go as far as to assume that he asked his wife to level his BRD for him or something. Any further reply to him would only decrease your IQ points so save your IQ points while you still can, ignore this troll and lets move on with the topic at hand.

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Originally Posted by KyteStones

I'm a caster I know

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Sorry you lost all credibility when you said you've only ever used apoc once. Doesn't sound like you know BLM that well, yet here you are commenting on BRD

I checked the JP forums, and it seems they too see a real issue with WM. Could be mistranslation, but I saw more threads about that than I did pretty much any other job. It's a shame they haven't picked up on the issue of MCH. Still, I feel MCH and BRDs are in the same boat. As a former BRD now MCH, I feel your pain. I hope both of our jobs get the attention they deserve. Usually devs listen to the JP community, so imo, it's looking good for WM.

I'm only (almost) lv55 on Bard and been playing around with WM - and not really enjoying how it feels.
I wouldn't mind it so much if it truly was an option for us to have the song up or not - but locking behind skills behind it means we are expected to have it up - as switching it on and off results in even more loss in dps as every song is 3 secs no matter what you do >.>

In my FC - our best bard who's played the class since day one and was proud of being able to keep up his dps numbers in end game content is now switching his main class as he just doesn't see that Bard is offering as much as it used it. And machinist is in the same boat - which isn't too much of a surprise since they've tried to make the two classes able to be swapped out for one another etc - just resulting in two 'support' dps slots that really are just seen as taking up a slot instead of offering any real type of support or help towards fights.

I am not there yet but I am seeing way too much concern about this in both the NA and JP forums for me to dismiss it as "WE DON'T LIKE CHANGE" whining. I am going to switch to NIN and level that up until this gets resolved one way or another.

Sorry to go off-topic, but on the subject of there being complaints about it on the Japanese forum as well-- Is there a similar case for the Dark Knight? I wonder if they find there are issues with it over there as well.

1) Wait for SE to roll out its first patches, they'll likely slingshot buff BRD/MCH into OP-territory and backlash nerf the others.

2) Anyone who expected BRD to be equal to BLM or something in terms of damage can just switch classes now. This is never going to happen, because the moment it does, BRD is going to be broken again.

3) Anyone who complains about not moving can...well, play another class too. It's really stupid to ask for competitive damage in one hand, and expect to still be able to derp in circles and sing resource songs on the other.

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

Sorry you lost all credibility when you said you've only ever used apoc once. Doesn't sound like you know BLM that well, yet here you are commenting on BRD

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Quoted for truth....

On topic in general there is a lot of discussion about many of the jobs not being balanced since the expansion. Personally I think adjustments will come but at the same time we all also need to take the time to learn and adjust to the new ways the jobs all play with the abilities and whatnot. A year and a half of playing a job the same way and all of a sudden we get 5 new abilities and in some cases some pretty drastic changes to rotations and play styles. It's going to take time for the player base to adjust.

That said I do think some changes / adjustments are coming to several classes and are needed, specifically to bard, black mage, machinist and dark knight.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

2) Anyone who expected BRD to be equal to BLM or something in terms of damage can just switch classes now. This is never going to happen, because the moment it does, BRD is going to be broken again.

3) Anyone who complains about not moving can...well, play another class too. It's really stupid to ask for competitive damage in one hand, and expect to still be able to derp in circles and sing resource songs on the other.

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These things do not go together. You can't expect players to be happy with a job which functionally plays identical to Black Mage but at significantly lower damage. So, we either maintain our mobility and do lessened damage (old skool) or they significantly reduce the gap between the two.

For someone who has both jobs, why would I choose to bring my Bard when my BLM also fills a ranged DPS slot and hits harder? This isn't even a songs argument, since songs reduce our damage further than it already is when they're played anyway.

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Originally Posted by Mirakell

In my FC - our best bard who's played the class since day one and was proud of being able to keep up his dps numbers in end game content is now switching his main class as he just doesn't see that Bard is offering as much as it used it.

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I'm in the same boat. I've switched to being a Scholar/Summoner main because at least they get to maintain their mobility to a degree and they do decent enough damage to justify the cast times they have.

Minuet sucks. I want my movement back! if i wanted to stay still with cast times, i would have picked a caster class.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

These things do not go together. You can't expect players to be happy with a job which functionally plays identical to Black Mage but at significantly lower damage. So, we either maintain our mobility and do lessened damage (old skool) or they significantly reduce the gap between the two.

For someone who has both jobs, why would I choose to bring my Bard when my BLM also fills a ranged DPS slot and hits harder? This isn't even a songs argument, since songs reduce our damage further than it already is when they're played anyway.

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Yes I can expect that, because even before 3.0, if you played BRD, you are expected by default to do less damage than the other DPS roles because you're playing a support hybrid. Whether you're in Minuet or not, this is still the case. Whether or not our damage is currently where it should be is a different argument. And, you would bring bard because of what bard brings to the table, which is something BLM doesn't. Again, whether or not BRD's current damage is sufficient is another discussion. But this has always been the case.


There are really only 2 outcomes to this issue.

1) Square buffs Minuet to make it comparable to other DPS classes, while ignoring the offstance 2.0 gameplay for Heavensward content

2) Square just buffs the Archer skills in general, in turn buffing them both, giving bards a somewhat higher DPS ceiling but still not comparable to other DPS.

Keep in mind that if you're a good bard in endgame content you're likely going to be singing anyway, which is always going to lead to a lower DPS. They should do more DPS than they currently do, but unless they invalidate the 2.0 playstyle, it is highly unlikely Bard will ever be competitive with it, singing or not.

If I wanted to play a caster I would play a caster. You took the flavor and fun out of a class tossed it out the window.

Also did not one of the devs said they wanted brds with this song to do damage onpar with blm or something? They sure did not hit the mark on that one. If you are going to take away the fun of the class, you better at least give us amazing dps with it.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

As a former BRD now MCH, I feel your pain. I hope both of our jobs get the attention they deserve. Usually devs listen to the JP community, so imo, it's looking good for WM.

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It's a shame that they made MCH, essentially, a carbon copy of BRD.

I don't think anyone is asking to move freely while maintaining BLM level dps. The way I would want bard dps to work is, in short, reduce it while singing support and buff it while not moving. Here's an example:

Lets compare the damage of bard and another job, for example BLM (can be any other one as well).
A) Highest possible dps: 95% of BLM damage. Bard does competitive numbers against a BLM when he is singing WM but not support songs.
B) Mediocre dps: ~80% of BLM damage. Relatively same damage as during ARR. Never top but not bad either. Bard does these numbers when singing support songs and WM at the same time, or when singing neither.
C) Low dps: 50%-60% of BLM damage. This is the situation we have currently, with or without WM and whilst not even singing support songs. I would be happier if bards only reached these numbers when singing support songs while not singing WM.

In ARR bards would do either B or C damage depending on if they were singing. But now they seem to be around C levels of damage and even drop below when they sing support songs. I don't think it would be too much to ask for bards to do close to a BLM if they choose to not move nor support. All SE would need to do is buff the damage bonus of WM, let us use all the new abilities without WM and increase the dps penalty in support songs. That way a party of all bards is not overpowered, and people could also choose to play more like a sniper with cast times and no support. Most bards would probably utilize both kinds of songs and average around B levels.

^ Yeah

Square is just going to have to bite the bullet, and decide to phase out the old 2.0 playstyle.

The other DPS classes all got some serious deeps increases, while all of bards skills from 51-57 have been geared soley towards dps, which is completely opposite of its 2.0 job skills. But the skills seem to be trying to not completely invalidate off-stance while at the same time being DPS increases, and it just isn't working too well when other classes are getting 100% straight DPS boosts with every added skill.

They need to either buff minuet or lower the implied reliance on it and buff them both. It takes nearly until Lv56 for Wanderer's Minuet to compensate for loss of AA's in the old style of gameplay. That alone is why their DPS is faltering behind. The other classes are taking strides forward, while BRD is just dancing around itself.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, they should just buff the weapon damage. Not by a whole lot, but yeah..
Like honestly, look at this:
http://puu.sh/iHlO5/4d7597ab2c.jpg


:v.

everyone always complain about WM. cant you guys just use the tried and true level 50 rotation?
if WM actually decrease your dps, then dont use it.
yeah sure you dont get to use the fancy new skills but hey, drg got 2 skills that are basically the same thing and MNK new skills only work when theres nothing to punch

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

everyone always complain about WM. cant you guys just use the tried and true level 50 rotation?
if WM actually decrease your dps, then dont use it.
yeah sure you dont get to use the fancy new skills but hey, drg got 2 skills that are basically the same thing and MNK new skills only work when theres nothing to punch

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So people should not be upset that they took a class design that made it fun for many people, and tossed it away? Also, this game like it or not forces us to group with each other. Seeing others go, *sigh* another brd or mch. when you first join makes one feel really good.

So brd lost what made them fun, and are weaker to show for it. Your logic makes no sense.

I basically only use WM in a situation where I have a ton of adds to mow down. The 20% buff applies across all mobs there, and makes up for the lack of auto attacks since those only hit the main target anyway.

I would like a few things to improve WM without losing the changes SE added:
- Wanderer's Minuet should be instant activation like every other class's stance change
- Iron Jaws should be instant cast, with a 10 second recast, not on the global cooldown

Those two small tweaks would allow a bard faced with 3+ enemies to pop WM, pop DoTs, pop buffs, do a Sidewinder, Empyreal Arrow, then Iron Jaws and then roll into AOE spam heaven.

I also find myself fantasizing over an ability that'd transfer the DoTs from one enemy in a group over to the next one, like Bane, so I could then pop Iron Jaws on it without having to waste two GCD spells reapplying the DoTs, but that's wishful thinking.

Everytime I use WM I kill stuff extremely slow and I cant move around. I actually spent an hour on a training dummy comparing the two and I felt I hit far more bloodletters thereby increasing my dmg and also the added auto attacks plus crits on my skills appears to be far more dmg output that with WM on.
Mind you I'm only level 55 on Bard at the moment, but it doesnt sound like it changes much at 60. I actually stopped playing bard at 53 because I was so ticked by the changes so I leveled DRG instead. Now that my DRG is 60, I went back to retry bard again. I'm really not happy with WM, truthfully, they didn't need to make us casters. They could have made WM something like Blood of the Dragon for example, and that you needed to do certain actions to extend its effects over time and thereby let you use Empyreal arrow, etc.
Just a thought but Bard does need a major overhaul now in my opinion. I for one, will not be using WM, and if folks aren't happy with me for that, then I guess they can kick me =/

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

The main argument here is that the damage BONUS simply doesn't cover it. It needs to be significantly higher than it is to counter the loss of mobility and auto-attacks. Even a bonus of 30% would go a long way to counteracting the balancing issues, which was already suggested had you been paying attention.

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What if WM was changed to not stop auto-attacks?

WM is better undertuned then overtuned. Let's people play the style they prefer. I don't know if there's general dps problems, but if there are you can fix those elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by RazeLandale

WM is better undertuned then overtuned. Let's people play the style they prefer. I don't know if there's general dps problems, but if there are you can fix those elsewhere.

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I dont understand your logic. How is it fair all the other classes get shiny new abilities, but if Bards want to use their new abilities, they have to sacrifice DPS to do it....
Because lets face it, everything Ive seen has pointed to a DPS loss with WM on.

It's just the misconception that people think Bards should be on par with Melees.

While I understand how people feel about that, they shouldn't with their utility. Sure, you might have a damage penalty inflicted upon you while using Mage's Ballad or Army's Paeon, but you could reduce that by using WM and if you know you can stay there for a bit.


In all honesty, it's a slight DPS boost if used correctly. I'm saying you can weave it with your buffs. Wouldn't make sense to stay in WM while there are no buffs/they're on CD.
Auto's were nerfed a bit, and the barrage change really hurt somewhat. You could almost say AA's are almost useless to Bards now.


EDIT: To the person above me, ( I can't quote for some reason )
It's a DPS loss if you keep using it all the time.
It's a DPS loss if you're constantly moving on accident.
It's NOT a DPS loss if you know when/where to use it (IE: Raging Strikes | Hawk's Eye | Blood for Blood | Barrage is up).
Trust me, I've been playing bard since Closed Beta Phase 2. :-;.

You're not forced to use it. (besides, sidewinder is pretty stupid OP if you ask me.)

Not to be rude, but this shows the good/bad Bards in this patch.

( ' - ' /

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Originally Posted by UltimateAoe2

Not to be rude, but this shows the good/bad Bards in this patch.

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Not to be rude, but that statement is rude....
And the length of time you have played bard matters not to me.
Ive been playing since 1.0 alpha but I will not claim to be the greatest bard out there because of that.

At any rate, I have only been using WM on training dummies for testing purposes since my attempts at using it in parties has effectively lessened my DPS. However the tooltip for WM lead me (and likely others) to believe that it boosts bard damage overall when it in fact does not. (Wanderer's Minuet: Increases damage dealt by 20% while ceasing auto-attack and adding cast time to all archer and bard weaponskills.) Also, WM is the only way we can access these new abilities, I think it highly cumbersome to have to stop everytime one of my new abilities is available for use, and cast WM just so I can use it... Not to mention it affect Iron Jaws. So that means Iron Jaws would then become useless if we dont have WM cast to use it.

So, yes, it has become a DPS loss when I am actually using WM (regardless of movement ie. Training dummy), which for all intents and purposes based on the tooltips for the other actions, Wanderer's Minuet appears to have been intended to "set it and forget it", meaning leaving it on constantly.

I don't play bard but it honestly seems like a simple case of use it or don't. No one is forcing anyone to play WM and lose the ability to move and auto attack. It's an option to be considered when you know the coast is clear.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

I don't play bard but it honestly seems like a simple case of use it or don't. No one is forcing anyone to play WM and lose the ability to move and auto attack. It's an option to be considered when you know the coast is clear.

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Assuming that "when the coast is clear", using it actually results in a DPS boost worth the effort of using it all. I think that's exactly what's being disputed here.

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Originally Posted by FaileExperiment

Assuming that "when the coast is clear", using it actually results in a DPS boost worth the effort of using it all. I think that's exactly what's being disputed here.

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This is exactly what's being disputed here. Even in the best case scenario, WM is not effective. Even if I never had to move, it's not boosting the damage that I already do without it on.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

I don't play bard but it honestly seems like a simple case of use it or don't. No one is forcing anyone to play WM and lose the ability to move and auto attack. It's an option to be considered when you know the coast is clear.

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Cool I'll not use it (as I don't use it now) and not get access to any of the new abilities like Iron Jaws and Empyreal Arrow? Sweet expansion.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

snip

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You are testing the abilities of a class before the level cap? I hope not. That would be silly.

So we don't use WM thus not getting any new abilities - to speak of. So bard got nothing. It seems like they want to phase out the bard job because they sure don't make it an attractive job to play