Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

Honest Question...

Is the last 2 abilities for DRG even with it endgame? As in... the level 58 skill just makes the 56 skill needlessly an annoyance in rotations and the 60 skill is an awkward crowd damage skill that reduces my blood of dragon time...

I am very tempted to skip the skills just to keep my skill chains simple and just pop doom spike where I'd use Gier-tab..

While Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust is a little wierd, the 60 ability (can't spell) I've found is pretty good to weave into your attacks since its oGCD, so if your keeping your Blood of the Dragoon up well you can afford to lose the ten seconds. Around the time its back up you should be close to/already be back at 30 sec limit again (barring too much dodging of course.)

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Originally Posted by PyroElf

Honest Question...

Is the last 2 abilities for DRG even with it endgame? As in... the level 58 skill just makes the 56 skill needlessly an annoyance in rotations and the 60 skill is an awkward crowd damage skill that reduces my blood of dragon time...

I am very tempted to skip the skills just to keep my skill chains simple and just pop doom spike where I'd use Gier-tab..

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By only reading bout dragoon on forums, in certain types of fights with alot of breaks in the fight which makes it impossible to maintain BotD while using the lvl 60 ability I'd say not getting the last 2 skills wouldn't affect you at all, but then in some fights where you could be using that 200 potency attack on the boss (oGCD I believe) would be better to have it. So it's kinda 2 sided. You cold technically be viable without the last 2 skills if you ask me, but I don't have experience on lvl 60 drg

Basically, what I hear you saying, is that the 50/50 chance to proc Wheeling Thrust or Fang and Claw is an incredibly contrived and unimaginative way to complexify DRG for the sake of complexity. Typically complexity provides some sort of benefit, or else simplification is preferable. Thing is, there is no benefit here.

And I'd agree. Though there is one benefit: we git gud. We are acquiring a skill set that is demanded of no other class. Perhaps down the road this will give us an edge.

Pst uhhh hate to be a dick but dragoons are top of the DPS pile right now and uhh... Bard/Machinist would love to have a word with you cause well you see 3/5 or 4/5 of the new skills ARE USELESS. Plus look at the machinist ohh hello mister paladin tank dealing = dps to me even though I'm performing to the maximum I can achieve. T_T (PS I got to look forward to 5/7 ((thats including lvl 50) abilities that are useless or pointless to use. Thats a punishment.

Edit: Sorry for being a bit harsh.. just really down about machinist and getting it to 60 then finding out its pretty useless...

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Originally Posted by PyroElf

Honest Question...

Is the last 2 abilities for DRG even with it endgame? As in... the level 58 skill just makes the 56 skill needlessly an annoyance in rotations and the 60 skill is an awkward crowd damage skill that reduces my blood of dragon time...

I am very tempted to skip the skills just to keep my skill chains simple and just pop doom spike where I'd use Gier-tab..

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Geirskogul is an additional 14PPS. It is not an annoyance. It's our 2nd strongest oCD now. Our strongest being Jump. Anyone not using Geirskogul in Endgame "because it's an annoyance and hard to use" is missing out on A LOT of DPS and I would consider them a bad Dragoon. As harsh as it is, it's true. There's no excuse not to use Geirskogul in the same way not to use Jump "because animation lock aoe lol".

As for Wheeling Thrust. It's just added complexity for the job for no reason. It's not hard to use, it's actually very easy. Just, it brings nothing new to the table. Again, no excuse not to use it.

That random Wheeling/F&C is not so difficult to deal with. You actually get to know which one of those 2 skills comes after right in the moment when you use CT or FT, and you have time to position correctly.

Gonna have to put this out here since it's become a "who survived a worse injury in the war" type of thread between Mnk and Drgs. This is NOT the issue!.

The issue at hand is being "rewarded" at 58, all that hard work expecting a cool or useful skill, and getting your DPS "potentially" lowered for your lvl 56 skill. It feels like you are cheated and punished, even if it's not a really big deal. SE needs to change how the twin skills work with effects or how and when these skills for 51-60 Drg are given out.

Wheeling Thrust is a fun skill and the 50/50 proc chances are fun and nice challenge. The issue is how it is given to the player, NOT how much harder it is or such. It's like getting coal for Christmas. It's not that bad... but I was expecting a freakin firetruck.

Seeing a lot of doom and gloom when it comes to our new skills from people. The fact is our changes in 3.0 are great overall and I think the mechanics of BotD and associated skills give us something a bit deeper and engaging to manage. Too many times in 2.x people would default to saying DRG was the easy class, but I'm glad we can finally move out of that designation. We are also doing very well in terms of comparative DPS with other jobs.

There really shouldnt be much to complain about and it boils down to just practicing our new rotation. Whether you find the random proc annoying or not, there is never a scenario where not using the new skills will be acceptable. You will be bad.

I cannot comprehend how people who complain about those two skills even manage to get clothed in the morning. Or do you perhaps have an assistant for that too?
Fact is that Dragoon is more fun than ever right now. If you do not feel like that you should simply play another job.

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

Seeing a lot of doom and gloom when it comes to our new skills from people. The fact is our changes in 3.0 are great overall and I think the mechanics of BotD and associated skills give us something a bit deeper and engaging to manage. Too many times in 2.x people would default to saying DRG was the easy class, but I'm glad we can finally move out of that designation. We are also doing very well in terms of comparative DPS with other jobs.

There really shouldnt be much to complain about and it boils down to just practicing our new rotation. Whether you find the random proc annoying or not, there is never a scenario where not using the new skills will be acceptable. You will be bad.

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Yeah overall, this has been a fairly favorable update for us. Just takes getting used to. Especially when you look at the changes to the other jobs. But yeah, point of the OP is, which I agree with...these two skills is just bad design.

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Originally Posted by MD-Geist

I cannot comprehend how people who complain about those two skills even manage to get clothed in the morning. Or do you perhaps have an assistant for that too?
Fact is that Dragoon is more fun than ever right now. If you do not feel like that you should simply play another job.

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I don't know who you are trying to insult there... but no one has complained about the ability. Some have complained about the redundancy, but not the skill.

We're complaining about getting the balancing factor of Fang and Claw as a reward at lvl 58. That they need to add effects or put it with the lvl 56 reward. Everyone is loving the skill and the complexity to it... do I REALLY need to add bigger bolder text so people can read?

Well, you did put "Punished" in the thread title, so people will only assume you're talking about it very negatively.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Well, you did put "Punished" in the thread title, so people will only assume you're talking about it very negatively.

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I think I honestly subconsciously do it just to see how many illiterate people are on the forums... I should seriously stop that bad habit. Probably was cause I made the post just after hitting 58 and getting my digitized skill wedgie. I'll look into changing it if any more no-readers pop up.

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Originally Posted by Darus

We're complaining about getting the balancing factor of Fang and Claw as a reward at lvl 58. That they need to add effects or put it with the lvl 56 reward. Everyone is loving the skill and the complexity to it... do I REALLY need to add bigger bolder text so people can read?

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I'm not insulting anyone, these are my genuine thoughts to this topic.
And you did indeed complain, don't act like you weren't now.

Allow me to quote: "The simplistic issue is your "reward" for hitting lvl 58 Dragoon is making your last move a little more difficult. No effects, dps change, ect. Thus, it feels like a punishment [...]."

Therefore you feel that this ability equals punishment. While to every other sane human being it equals fun.
Dragoon was as brain dead as your arguments before 3.0

And we already are the top DPS, so there is no punishment involved at all.

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Originally Posted by Darus

I think I honestly subconsciously do it just to see how many illiterate people are on the forums... I should seriously stop that bad habit. Probably was cause I made the post just after hitting 58 and getting my digitized skill wedgie. I'll look into changing it if any more no-readers pop up.

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Polygon and IGN will love your click-bait title skills. They should hire you. :P

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Originally Posted by MD-Geist

I'm not insulting anyone, these are my genuine thoughts to this topic.
And you did indeed complain, don't act like you weren't now.

Allow me to quote: "The simplistic issue is your "reward" for hitting lvl 58 Dragoon is making your last move a little more difficult. No effects, dps change, ect. Thus, it feels like a punishment [...]."

Therefore you feel that this ability equals punishment. While to every other sane human being it equals fun.
Dragoon was as brain dead as your arguments before 3.0

And we already are the top DPS, so there is no punishment involved at all.

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Annnnd you failed to read the issue. Fang and Claw is a positive skill, Wheeling Thrust is the counter weight, adds to the difficulty, a negative part to it. They combine to be a balanced game mechanic that adds to the class and fun.

It's about getting that as a job reward at 58. It's the difficulty added on for no reason as a "reward" which makes it a "punishment". Read more than a few choice paragraphs and you might get what I'm trying to convey. Wheeling Thrust needs to be changed OR added into the lvl 56 job reward. The skill is not a punishment, it's placement is.

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Originally Posted by Darus

Annnnd you failed to read the issue. Fang and Claw is a positive skill, Wheeling Thrust is the counter weight, adds to the difficulty, a negative part to it. They combine to be a balanced game mechanic that adds to the class and fun.

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That is not what you claimed in your original post, good thing you agree with me now though.

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Originally Posted by Darus

It's about getting that as a job reward at 58. It's the difficulty added on for no reason as a "reward" which makes it a "punishment". Read more than a few choice paragraphs and you might get what I'm trying to convey. Wheeling Thrust needs to be changed OR added into the lvl 56 job reward. The skill is not a punishment, it's placement is.

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The reward is fun as I already said and it adds a lot to the DRG gameplay. And you seem to agree with me, therefore there is no punishment to this. The spot it has is well deserved just because of those facts.
Have a splendid day and do not forget to think for a while before you create a new thread the next time.

What if they gave you both Fang and Wheeling at the same time? Then you'd probably see it as a reward, right? Then what the hell is the difference?! Not all skills are a "reward," look at Feint :/

2.0 rotation was so easy it was mind nubbing and any one could do it. Dont look at Wheeling Thrust as a negative, look at it as a way to separate; the lancer (who will hit procs positionals never), the good (who will hit procs positionals some times), the great (who will hit procs positionals most times), and the amazing (who will hit procs positionals ALL the time)! The great/amazing can pull some insane numbers imo.

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Originally Posted by TheKingSlayer

What if they gave you both Fang and Wheeling at the same time? Then you'd probably see it as a reward, right? Then what the hell is the difference?! Not all skills are a "reward," look at Feint :/

2.0 rotation was so easy it was mind nubbing and any one could do it. Dont look at Wheeling Thrust as a negative, look at it as a way to separate; the lancer (who will hit procs positionals never), the good (who will hit procs positionals some times), the great (who will hit procs positionals most times), and the amazing (who will hit procs positionals ALL the time)! The great/amazing can pull some insane numbers imo.

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No no, that is kinda a second answer I came up with in conversations in this post. I added summaries before and after. I need to change the "tone" of my post because a lot of people aren't getting the issue either. I'll go back and rework the post so we don't have any misunderstandings.

wow are you seriously complaining about one skill.

MCH has two completely useless skills post 50, not to mention the lowest dps in the game and is much harder to play then most dps.

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Originally Posted by TheKingSlayer

What if they gave you both Fang and Wheeling at the same time? Then you'd probably see it as a reward, right? Then what the hell is the difference?! Not all skills are a "reward," look at Feint :/

2.0 rotation was so easy it was mind nubbing and any one could do it. Dont look at Wheeling Thrust as a negative, look at it as a way to separate; the lancer (who will hit procs positionals never), the good (who will hit procs positionals some times), the great (who will hit procs positionals most times), and the amazing (who will hit procs positionals ALL the time)! The great/amazing can pull some insane numbers imo.

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Considering how much bosses move in HW dungeons I'm surprised MNKs haven't hung up their belts yet. Let alone our two random procing skills. I think the skills being random wouldn't be a problem if they just didn't have position requirements. Again the new skills are completely useless outside of a party senario. They do less damage than your lvl 1 weaponskill for crying out loud.

Leg sweep is a very handy skill, on a 20s cooldown, which allows you to stun your opponent into place, allowing you to hit the position you need for Wheeling Thrust/Fang & Claw. Same for SPD****.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Leg sweep is a very handy skill, on a 20s cooldown, which allows you to stun your opponent into place, allowing you to hit the position you need for Wheeling Thrust/Fang & Claw. Same for DFD.

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I think you meant SSD.

OP is right: obtaining Wheeling Thrust at 58 breaks the expectation that you're getting stronger/learning new techniques/attuning with your job crystal soul. When you, the player, realize that the game just made your skill usage more complex but not more powerful, you feel slighted by the game and whoever designed the skill/quest.

Having both skills is manageable, or even fun to learn and execute, but the experience of receiving Wheeling Thrust at 58 is absolutely a punishing one for the player, as it's out of line with every other skill learned by not making you stronger.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Leg sweep is a very handy skill, on a 20s cooldown, which allows you to stun your opponent into place, allowing you to hit the position you need for Wheeling Thrust/Fang & Claw. Same for DFD.

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Exactly - we have 2 stun skills (a real luxury that allows us to get those positions even during solo.

I would not mind them adding some differentiating traits to the attacks - just something that gives Wheeling Thrust and Fang and Claw some individuality form each other rather than just positional requirements. However I'm currently unsure what that would be.

The RNG factor of this makes balancing against two non-identical skills difficult, but I would rather not remove the RNG element of it. Perhaps a small HP refund on Wheeling Thrust or some sort of very minor buff that would be appreciated, but not bemoaned that it's random.

But over all I don't bemoan the desire to make these skills more individual. A low priority change to be sure.

How about changing the effect at level 56 such that you only have a 50% chance of getting the buff that unlocks the skill and if you don't get the buff, then BotD will just run out of time and fall off. Then at 58 you'll always get one buff or the other; you're now rewarded with always getting a means of extending BotD.

I haven't leveled drg, but I do find this mechanic pretty cool.

I think one of them should be a dot

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

I think one of them should be a dot

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That woulden't work as the proc on each attack is random. It means 50% of the time you're likely to clip your dot in hurt your DPS.

Unless that DoT lasted all of 12 seconds it really wouldn't be worthwhile.

Wait, so they're both literally the same ability, except random with different positional requirements? Is one off GCD or something?

So you're saying at 58, you have to do more work for the same attack?

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Wait, so they're both literally the same ability, except random with different positional requirements? Is one off GCD or something?

So you're saying at 58, you have to do more work for the same attack?

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exactly, whereas, if they gave them together at 56, there'd be no issue, it's just poor placement of level rewards

Hmmmm....yeah that's odd. It seems like they may have intended for the skill gained at 56 to have a 50% chance of proc.

So then, when you got to 58, you'd just get either or. So you'd have a 100% chance at using a skill, except with different positional requirements.

It's probably an oversight, it'll probably get changed.

I hope not. If you get level synced down, having 50% chance for no proc is not fun.

From what I hear, it was different when they showed it as E3, probably and oversight when trying to balance it and get it in game, but it feels aweful this way.

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

I hope not. If you get level synced down, have 50% chance for no proc is not fun.

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no, you get a 100% proc on the other skill instead, your DPS goes up

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Originally Posted by Darus

no, you get a 100% proc on the other skill instead, your DPS goes up

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I'm referring to what Edellis said in that the 100% proc at 56 might be a mistake and instead it might have been intended to be 50% chance to proc or not.

As in, I would hope that isn't the case, because level syncing would be that much worse.

I understand how the mechanics work.

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

I'm referring to what Edellis said in that the 100% proc at 56 might be a mistake and instead it might have been intended to be 50% chance to proc or not.

As in, I would hope that isn't the case, because level syncing would be that much worse.

I understand how the mechanics work.

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My bad, my bad, but you've seen the people that I've been responding to here, force of habit.

But yeah, 50% chance would be horrible.

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

I hope not. If you get level synced down, having 50% chance for no proc is not fun.

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With the way Wheeling Thrust works though, that's really the only logical explanation. Because otherwise, yeah, the class is getting punished at level 58 by making what was a consistent and predictable DPS increase now harder to use.

Most of the other classes seem to gain skills that increase the efficiency of their previous abilities. The way you guys are describing current Dragoon, they reached peak efficiency of Blood of the Dragon at level 56. This was probably intended to happen at 58, hence why maintaining the same DPS at lv58 is actually harder than 56.


So i'm almost positive this is going to get patched. You guys are currently EZmode dps right now.

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Originally Posted by Darus

My bad, my bad, but you've seen the people that I've been responding to here, force of habit.

But yeah, 50% chance would be horrible.

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Yea, it's no prob at all.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

With the way Wheeling Thrust works though, that's really the only logical explanation. Because otherwise, yeah, the class is getting punished at level 58 by making what was a consistent and predictable DPS increase now harder to use.

Most of the other classes seem to gain skills that increase the efficiency of their previous abilities. The way you guys are describing current Dragoon, they reached peak efficiency of Blood of the Dragon at level 56. This was probably intended to happen at 58, hence why maintaining the same DPS at lv58 is actually harder than 56.


So i'm almost positive this is going to get patched. You guys are currently EZmode dps right now.

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Jeeze that hurts coming from a BRD lol.

Honestly the complexity of this job has greatly increased from the 2.x incarnation and I would argue that DRG is not the easiest DPS available in this game.
We have two new random positionals that lose 190 potency if you hit the wrong side; we also have a new buff to maintain in BotD that is similar to how a MNK needs to maintain GL.
A derp isn't just going to pick up this job and shine.

I've already stated I understand the OP's point in an earlier post. Yea, from a reward perspective it isn't a reward. We need to look at the job as a whole at lvl 60 though and just accept the mechanic for what it is. Most people don't have an issue with it on the whole.

To my point though, why change the 56 skill to 50% just to make the 58 quest feel like a reward when at the end of the day you'll just move on and stop caring. All it would do is hurt you when you lvl sync.