The Tale of the Dark Knight (DRK Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Nilheim

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fray always has yellow eyes... so thats not what gives the "tell" since my char has blue/red eyes...

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Originally Posted by Nilheim

The first thing I noticed about Fray was that his eyes were exactly like mine (quite distinctive which is why it hit me). I don't know if that was the same for everyone (I have pale yellow eyes) or not but I started suspecting Fray didn't exist and we were just going batshit crazy after the level 35 quest. It became really obvious that Fray is you (I think he's just not there at all and it's your fucked up mind imagining him being there) and that his lines are what you are saying after that quest with that asshole merchant in Moraby ("I should've let you all drown").

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Much like our name connection, that was pure serendipity. And I don't mean the goldsmith.

It was awesome and from the way it seemed with Isembard he looked directly at Fray when he made the comment about the pilgrims being idiots and going out with no weapons...

Btw, Please don't tell me I was the only one who started crying after the lvl 50 quest... I just finished about an hour ago or so and I still want to cry...

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Btw, Please don't tell me I was the only one who started crying after the lvl 50 quest... I just finished about an hour ago or so and I still want to cry...

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I didn't cry. It's not so much sad as it is... I don't know, enlightening. What's sad is

Haurchefant's death, and to a lesser extent Ysayle's death and Estinien's enslavement

during the MSQ.

The DRK 30-50 quest does touch on some more complex issues of psychology, though. It shows that your shadow isn't just a mass of hate and rage, it's everything you deny about yourself: both the hate and rage born of betrayal as well as the pain and sorrow of loss. Your shadow seems genuinely sad you're going to continue to force yourself to bear the pain and sorrow that comes with honoring your obligations, even if you do so purely because you choose to.

If only I had thought to put on I'll Face Myself (Battle) during the fight...

The 50-60 quest isn't as introspective or personal as the 30-50 one was. It's still pretty good and raises questions about the power of darkness though.

Yeah, I'm honestly still trying to figure out why it made me cry .... i think i'll have to try to figure it out

hopefully if they increase the level cap in the next xpack again they will have the shadow return to help you learn more ability's and dive deeper into the darkness.

I think it's because the post-battle scene is incredibly cathartic for people who understand the shadow. All too often the heroes are portrayed as unflappable, stoic badasses who can endure anything. We wear the mask of one, but deep down that's not who we are.

On the surface you're still the unflappable, stoic badass, but beneath the mask you're a mess of pain, anger, and sorrow from the betrayals and lack of gratitude from people. You never get a moment to live for yourself, always fighting others' battles because they can't or won't, and you absolutely hate it. It makes your darkness visible instead of keeping it buried. It humanizes the Warrior of Light, in other words.

in other words it made me a huge empathic mess

The DRK quests give your WoL a personality instead of just being the stoic hero the world sees. But it's sad in the sense that it shows the personal cost of that choice, yet it is still willingly made. Even your shadow seems to accept it, which shows more then anything you arnt evil. Just weary and tired of being the chosen one.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

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Agreed I liked the fact that your dark side was not mwhahahaha kind of evil it was more angry that everyone keeps forcing their issue's on you and as Cilia said always fighting because other's can't or won't or even they won't show gratitude after you move the heaven and earth for them. It wanted to "free" you of obligations now how your darkside would go about this after taking the "reins" that's another story all together. The 50-60 quest does make me wonder where our power actually comes from because every time we learn a skill unlike other classes the wording changes. Like one of them is "from the abyss you hear a whisper....." Sid mentions we use the power of the abyss is it the void? I mean we can feed on negative emotions and are stronger for it.

Is the abyss another word for the void? Just like Chakra is aether?

I think Frays body was moving but not talking if you look in your journal you see it as if he's writing it how ever it can be looked at that you wer writing it all along.


So everything that he said was pretty much you.

You know thinking about the storyline to the point of what I had done and a lot of the people complaining on the forums after 2.55 went down makes me wonder if se knew what type of backlash they would get when they did what they did or were they sitting there watching and reading the forums the whole time and decided to take the story that way. Or maybe in just thinking to much into it..

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Originally Posted by Dererk

I think Frays body was moving but not talking if you look in your journal you see it as if he's writing it how ever it can be looked at that you wer writing it all along.


So everything that he said was pretty much you.

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Whether or not you're physically talking and Fray is just a corpse animated by your shadow is immaterial. "Fray" is you, so of course everything s/he said was you.

Either way, people do look at Fray when s/he addresses them, and the guard / merchant do ask where Fray went after the 45 quest.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

You know thinking about the storyline to the point of what I had done and a lot of the people complaining on the forums after 2.55 went down makes me wonder if se knew what type of backlash they would get when they did what they did or were they sitting there watching and reading the forums the whole time and decided to take the story that way. Or maybe in just thinking to much into it..

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Maaaaaaybe... besides the Ul'dah weapon thing, "Fray" was pretty generalized with his/her frustrations. I forget how many people I had to explain to that we had to leave our weapon at the door... half a dozen? Ugh...

Lol it was atleast 10 people that I can remember lol

Its heartening to know though from that that we were right about it to an extent.

Idk if I'm the only one who felt excited by this and would love to see more. But the huge huge highlight to me of the lvl 50 quest was: Getting to see my freaking character actually talk (if though it was my shadow talking) BUT STILL!!!! Lips moving! Words of text and all!!!!

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

So DRK storyline is basically a combination of Hollow Ichigo/Evil Ryu/FF4 Cecil plot elements.

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It's actually much more Fight Club than anything else, and the clues start to drop in during the 40 quest, and are then rammed home in the 45.

Edit: and now I see that's a comparison lots of other people have made :p

Edit: And yes, the Fight Club analogy works because it's all about your character's perception of Fray, not other people's, so at first, you think s/he's there. Just like when Tyler is listing the rules of Fight Club, the narrator thinks he is looking on. It's not until you give that tirade to the Limsa merchant that it all falls into place. Fray has gone and you're the only one there. The Maelstrom guy says he can understand why you're angry.

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Originally Posted by Mieck

It's not until you give that tirade to the Limsa merchant that it all falls into place. Fray has gone and you're the only one there. The Maelstrom guy says he can understand why you're angry.

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the maelstorm guard is actually still referring to Fray at that point.

our realization just comes from subtle clues. things fray says that fray shouldn't know.

"after what happened at Ul'dah?"

our character doesn't know it's the literal personification of our desire to break the shackles of fate and be free until we see ourselves as a fully equipped dark knight seeking to pull you away from the vicious cycle you have shoehorned yourself into one way or another.

"Fray's" presence is often ambiguous, but talking to certain people confirms s/he is actually physically there. The Maelstrom guard, for instance, asks where your "friend" went after "Fray's" outburst, and though it's rare whenever "Fray" addresses people they do look at him/her. Definitive proof that "Fray" is physically there comes from the end of the 50 quest, when Drillemont says they're going to give your "friend" a proper burial.

Like Saber said, it's not until "Fray's" line about Ul'dah that it becomes crystal clear. Everything before then is ambiguous.

I felt it was more like a character's arc in Persona 4, exploring who we are beneath our mask of strength and stoicism. The important thing to note is that it's not just hate and rage, it's pain and sorrow as well...

EDIT

I think DRK's theme song is The War Still Rages Within from Metal Gear Rising....

Loved the 30-50 stuff... Really some of the best storytelling SE has done in this game imo..

50-60... Meh, seemed lost, and forced.

The 50-60 quests were... okay, not nearly as good as the 30-50 quest was.

Probably because, after the big reveal, the 30-50 quests becomes very, very personal and introspective. Conversely the 50-60 quest makes you play second fiddle to Sidurgu, and you could be swapped out for any other DRK. The 30-50 quest, ultimately, was about you, the Warrior of Light, not the Scions, or the Alliance, or Ishgard, or the Heretics, or the Dravanians. You.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

the maelstorm guard is actually still referring to Fray at that point.

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It can be read two ways;

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Originally Posted by Styrnlona at Moraby Dry Docks

Mieck, madam, I... You have every right to be upset, but...

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Styrnlona looks at the overbearing trader in despair. The use of the word "madam" (or "sir", I suppose), is the part with two meanings. Does he mean Fray? Or is he simply addressing you formally because he's just heard you chew the merchant out and he might get the same treatment if he appears over-familiar? Fray has already disappeared from shot and your character is facing away. Styrnlona then addresses the only person remaining.

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...I think he understands, madam.

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Your character's perception is what is important here - just because people seem to be addressing Fray, we know afterwards they are not. I know it seems like I'm twisting in knots to follow this line of thinking, but (and I accept this can be put back to me as a counter argument) text that comes from NPCs is pretty unreliable in this quest line because of the state of mind your character is in. In effect, they see what they want/expect to see.
To reinforce the Tyler Durden role, Fray actually even quotes him, almost word for word in the scene immediately afterwards on Moraby Dry Docks

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Originally Posted by Fray

Only when you have renounced everything are you free to do anything.

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Originally Posted by Tyler Durden

It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

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Originally Posted by Mieck

It can be read two ways;

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yes, i noticed that.

note that whatever you gender is is the gender people refer to fray as. if your a guy, fray talks like a guy. if you a girl, fray is a woman trapped in a man's body.

I got the impression that them looking at Fray was in your head, and when he talked you were talking.
I actually realized there weren't two people due to how the conversations went. It's just not how you address separate people.
Fray never needed to introduce himself and he just continued the conversation.

It's ambiguous, but I think Fray only manifested physically at the very end. The conversations before would just be really weird and awkward.
I don't think it mattered that people looked at Fray, because if we were talking when Fray was (which was my impression) then our perception wasn't the reality.

Actually, I thought the accusation of us talking to a corpse was a big reveal in itself.
If Fray was just undead, he wouldn't be hanging out in Ishgard (even in the Brume) or people would've made the accusation earlier when we fought side by side with him outside the Tribunal.
No one ever acted like Fray was suspiciously undead (or even openly acknowledged there were two people in front of them).

I'm pretty sure when they said we were talking to a corpse, that didn't mean we were talking to some zombie.
I took it as we were hanging out by the real Fray's corpse (who is still slumped and dead) talking to ourselves (Fray in our head) for quest pick ups.
So we really looked like we were talking to a dead body. And that's what they buried in the end.

Ehhhh then explain the whole darkness surrounding us then surrounding the corpse after we first reach out to touch the soul crystal. That whole thing looks as if a transference of energy (of the darkness kind) is taking place between the two bodies.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Ehhhh then explain the whole darkness surrounding us then surrounding the corpse after we first reach out to touch the soul crystal. That whole thing looks as if a transference of energy (of the darkness kind) is taking place between the two bodies.

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I took it as a transfer of power, not from us to him but the opposite.
After we picked up the soulstone, we absorbed part of his power and shadow. Both things imbue the figment of Fray with the knowledge to guide us to being a Dark Knight.
I don't think it needed to be more than that. It's not like it shows us either side getting drained more and you pass out during the process.

The first few lines also sound like the words of the dying Fray, so I'm pretty sure we were absorbing his soul.
Or you could say an inheritance of power, much like the soulstones are.

The more and more I go through these quest the more Fray's perspective makes sense to me. People keep asking me for things.....half the time they won't even give me anything worth having. Sometime I just want to pick up the quest giver, hold them over a ravine, and say...

"I'll kill X and Y or gather Z for you and when I return you will have something for me. If I don't like what you have I will chose something else you own and take that instead. Not because I want to hurt you, or because I am avaricious, but because I have done you a service and you owe me dammit. Now if you have nothing more to say I will let you go home and you can wait for me there."

One thing I'd like to point out is that he also metions Sidguru when you first arrive at the Docks during the 45 quest. I say He here because even though my character is female, Fray was male and that scene had to be the "real" Fray's sould talking. I assume that his sould was the one who started teaching you, with your own darkside taking over more and more as time went on...I also agree with the part about our darkside (and, possibly, Fray's own soul not quite moving on.) taking over the corpse.

As an aside I hope one day when our levels go up again, we get an ability that lets us call our dark self to mirror our moves, basically giving us two attacks per turn for all moves (the dark self's attacks would be at half strength...I miss Command Mission...)

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

As an aside I hope one day when our levels go up again, we get an ability that lets us call our dark self to mirror our moves, basically giving us two attacks per turn for all moves (the dark self's attacks would be at half strength...I miss Command Mission...)

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I wouldn't mind this. I also wouldn't mind interacting with our other self again, maybe as the next job giver. Working with it to better harness the abyss, that boils up into an all out battle against them again...or fighting against an onslaught of enemies with other self.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The knight's up and ready, identifying themselves as Fray, and offers to train you in the ways of the Dark Knight to go rescue a falsely-accused woman.

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It was my understanding that the woman wasn't just falsely accused; the holy knights were actually abusing the power of their positions to harass her and get away with it, knowing full well that she's innocent. It seemed to me to be implied that she wasn't the first person they'd done this to.

Most of "Fray's" appearances are ambiguous, but at the very least s/he is physically there during the 50 quest. There's no way you could have gotten to Whitebrim Front and beat up the soldiers, then arrived with the healer knight; the soldiers also gasp in terror when "Fray" glares at them, and the knight gasps when "Fray" leaves Fray's body and physically manifests as your shadow.

All the other appearances are ambiguous. Take them however you wish.

I'd also love the return of our shadow in future quests primarily because it would probably be very, very personal and introspective again instead of the story ultimately be about somebody else (like literally every other storyline in this game). Can't think of a how or why our shadow would return, though.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I'd also love the return of our shadow in future quests primarily because it would probably be very, very personal and introspective again instead of the story ultimately be about somebody else (like literally every other storyline in this game). Can't think of a how or why our shadow would return, though.

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Shadow: I am thou, thou art I. The time has come. Open the door, and call forth what is withen.

WoL: Per....so.....na.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

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The way it's flowing is inconsistent with it going from him to us. yes it starts off with the soul gem glowing then you glow after you hear the "Is this it? Is this all that awaits? No... No more. Enough" and then you proceed to see the energy flowing from you into "fray" and continue to hear the exact same words spoken by your dark half when he's about to come out of the "body" in Our Answer ie "Open your eyes. Look. Do you see now? Do you see?" next the journal says the voice you are hearing is a "familiar" one you would know Fray's voice so in turn you wouldn't be familiar with it. However you can be familiar with your own voice yet not know it is your own hearing it outside of yourself (like watching or listening to yourself over the phone or a recording they can sound very different) Secondly your dark shadow straight up tells you that you knew that fray was dead and didn't care because you had the stone the sword and just wanted a teacher really badly (thus denying all yourself and not even being able to hear the voice when fray wasn't around).

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Shadow: I am thou, thou art I. The time has come. Open the door, and call forth what is withen.

WoL: Per....so.....na.

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don't forget the whole unbuttoning of the school uniform jacket

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Originally Posted by Rannie

The way it's flowing is inconsistent with it going from him to us. yes it starts off with the soul gem glowing then you glow after you hear the "Is this it? Is this all that awaits? No... No more. Enough" and then you proceed to see the energy flowing from you into "fray" and continue to hear the exact same words spoken by your dark half when he's about to come out of the "body" in Our Answer ie "Open your eyes. Look. Do you see now? Do you see?" next the journal says the voice you are hearing is a "familiar" one you would know Fray's voice so in turn you wouldn't be familiar with it. However you can be familiar with your own voice yet not know it is your own hearing it outside of yourself (like watching or listening to yourself over the phone or a recording they can sound very different) Secondly your dark shadow straight up tells you that you knew that fray was dead and didn't care because you had the stone the sword and just wanted a teacher really badly (thus denying all yourself and not even being able to hear the voice when fray wasn't around).

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I felt the "Is this it? Is this all that awaits? No... No more. Enough" was Fray, everything after was the PC's Fray. Which isn't really inconsistent with the journal or the him echoing the later part.
Even if it was all Fray, I don't think the Dark Mist flowing between us and Fray's corpse really proves anything.

Even if it did, the whole process started as soon as you picked up the Soulstone.
That whole thing could've happened in your head, just like how they accused you of talking to Fray's corpse (which, again, I really don't think they meant zombie).
An altered perception means you can't trust what you see.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I'd also love the return of our shadow in future quests primarily because it would probably be very, very personal and introspective again instead of the story ultimately be about somebody else (like literally every other storyline in this game). Can't think of a how or why our shadow would return, though.

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I I could see that being the DRK story in the next expansion.

By not just mastering the Darkness but becoming one with it. Maybe the last ability in it will be something like full possession.

I would love to have a reason to Marco We are one. With an ability.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I felt the "Is this it? Is this all that awaits? No... No more. Enough" was Fray, everything after was the PC's Fray. Which isn't really inconsistent with the journal or the him echoing the later part.
Even if it was all Fray, I don't think the Dark Mist flowing between us and Fray's corpse really proves anything.

Even if it did, the whole process started as soon as you picked up the Soulstone.
That whole thing could've happened in your head, just like how they accused you of talking to Fray's corpse (which, again, I really don't think they meant zombie).
An altered perception means you can't trust what you see.

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That's the same kinda mind bs that went on in CoD Black Ops where "Reznov" was just a hallucination this whole time and had been dead for years by the time the story ended.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Most of "Fray's" appearances are ambiguous, but at the very least s/he is physically there during the 50 quest. There's no way you could have gotten to Whitebrim Front and beat up the soldiers, then arrived with the healer knight; the soldiers also gasp in terror when "Fray" glares at them, and the knight gasps when "Fray" leaves Fray's body and physically manifests as your shadow.

All the other appearances are ambiguous. Take them however you wish.

I'd also love the return of our shadow in future quests primarily because it would probably be very, very personal and introspective again instead of the story ultimately be about somebody else (like literally every other storyline in this game). Can't think of a how or why our shadow would return, though.

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Same I would love for our dark side to chip in for future job quests.

Eh, I loved the Fray part of the story but I would really like to meet the DRKs as secret society.
I know they're all about the individuals (so I guess that's why they mostly act on their own), but I'm sure they have some sort of brotherhood hierarchy and organization.

I don't want it to be a story about someone else, but I want to delve more into the what it means to be a DRK.
It should be a personal story, but just about learning what it means to be this Job.

All the other stories are about another NPC and then at the end, they're like, "Oh, thanks for the help. Here's a new skill."
Some are less so. And the Fray one is practically the opposite, since you're learning from yourself.

How DRKs function within Ishgard society. I mean, Sidurgu and most class/job quests are just too personal for that NPC.
Fray, I wouldn't say it was too personal because it was really needed for the WoL. But I'd like if the Jobs were less about the people and more about what it means to hold the tag of that Job.

I was under the impression that it was just Sid and the WoL left. There are no other Dark Knights. But I might have missed something in the quests.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

I was under the impression that it was just Sid and the WoL left. There are no other Dark Knights. But I might have missed something in the quests.

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That's what I thought too. Pretty sure Fray's and Sid's master was the first Dark Knight, so that would mean that Sid and the WoL are the only ones left.

How DRKs function in Ishgardian society is simple - as the job description says, we're lawless vigilantes who excise the corrupt parts of the Ishgardian theocracy by any means necessary. To be a dark knight is to suffer - you're persecuted for what you do, for what you are, but nobody else will take up your burden and right the wrongs you do because of that persecution. If you succumb to the darkness, you could very well become what you fight and end up on the end of another dark knight's blade. Dark knights have no illusions about what they do - they're criminals and murderers, but they commit the crimes and kill the people they do for the greater good.

To be a dark knight is to walk a very, very fine line between a merciless guardian and a common criminal.

Anyway, dark knights don't need an organization (Brotherhood of Darkness anyone?) because having a hierarchy or something like that undercuts one of the central ideas of being a dark knight - enforcing your own justice. If we answered to someone higher up, we'd just be taking their orders, not following our hearts. Having a central organization also implies having an emblem that would make you instantly recognizable to your enemies, something no dark knight needs to deal with.

Along with Sidurgu, are we the last dark knights?

Mmmmmmmmmaybe... any vigilante can pick up a big-ass sword and call themselves a dark knight, but without the void arts we wield they're not a dark knight proper. That said, even if the dark knights of Ishgard are almost nonexistent, there could be dark knights (or something like them) in future places.