Summoner Changes Compiled: Is there more?

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Discussing Summoner changes in a thread about summoner changes is not derailing a thread.

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Not to put words in the mouth of the original poster, but I was under the assumption that this thread's purpose was to document what changes and additions have been made to summoner since the patch notes weren't exactly forthcoming with information.

Your tit for tat with Zanther sounds like it'd be better suited in "Connecting the DoTs: A Summoner Guide" or separate thread entirely.

Not trying to start anything, just letting you know why I think it's a derailment.

Crevox post belong to a separate thread entirely. I agree with some of his points because once we get to Ifrit story mode we know what the Primals really are. The Primals have no souls they are a massive qauntity of Aether and focus which is shaped into a sembalnce of what the believers are imagining them to be. Unlock single plalyer Final Fantasy titles where there are actual summons the Primals in Final Fantasy XIV are pale imitations they aren't summoned so much as conjure which is the lowest form of summoning.

For those who have reached lvl 60,

is this kind of macro possible (and efficient) :
/ac ahk morn
/ac DW stance

i think it's a pain to keep ahk morn in the hotbar since it's only used under DW stance while ending it also.
This is truly similar to an activation/desactivation stance and having 2 spell for this is meh.

i have trouble using buttons past 6 (on keyboard) since i need to move the left hand to press them.
I resolved my problem by using "a,e,r,f" and "ctrl + a,e,r,f" buttons but now that i need 5 more slot i'm lost.

I moved heal to put painflare
I moved tri-bind to put Ruin 3
I'll have to move Blizzard 2 to put tri-disaster

help me :(

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Originally Posted by Crevox

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Again. 1005 disagree. Everything you listed is reasons why these are good changes. The class went from "refresh dots, spam ruin" to having actual class mechanics that require you to think before you start slamming keys.


And it seems like SE likes deleting my post. I must have hurt someones feelings (not implying it was you).

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Your tit for tat with Zanther sounds like it'd be better suited in "Connecting the DoTs: A Summoner Guide" or separate thread entirely.

Not trying to start anything, just letting you know why I think it's a derailment.

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Except its not derailment. We're not talking about improving our dps here, we're talking about the changes made (in a topic about the changes), which is exactly what the thread is about.

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Originally Posted by Zanther

Again. 1005 disagree. Everything you listed is reasons why these are good changes. The class went from "refresh dots, spam ruin" to having actual class mechanics that require you to think before you start slamming keys.

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After hitting 60, I can definitely say, I am having trouble finding the correct route to maximizing DWT. Some people have chosen largely to just refresh whatever skills needed in DWT and just Ruin III for any filler, which any decently skilled SMN can do with ease as it's essentially playing as normal and just activating DWT as a passive to fire off Deathflare soon after. However, I definitely feel there is more to maximizing this skill and it's usage starting right after the first DWT is used in the opener.

Your rotation also will become fundamentally different depending on Ifrit or Garuda when trying to maximize DWT from what I can see as well. How you balance other skills along side it also seems to add a lot into it.

You mention how it was a "refresh dots, spam ruin" class before, but there were still several elements within that simpleness you had to think about constantly especially when managing AF usage, to keep your DPS up especially when you use Ifrit on Obey + skill usage. DWT does definitely add a new level onto the class if we are talking about maximizing on SMN, which was already a top contender for most difficult to maximize on.

While I am certainly grateful to the many fixes that came to the class, DWT just took the class another step further into separating the good from the bad SMNs. TBH, I can't blame anyone who would get upset with it. Throwing mechanics into the mix, while also having to plan the usage of DWT, Aetherflow, Tri-Disaster use, Pet skills, and all timers both on DoTs and Aetherial Stacks, is a lot to juggle simultaneously, effectively.

That Ruin III.... triple the cost for 1.5 potency AND added cast timer AND losing additional debuff effect. Man. Like, what were they thinking? It's indeed pretty ridiculous when compared to SCH's Broil which has a higher potency AND lower MP cost than Ruin III.

Yes, there is DWT. A 15s buff for 10% additional damage overall, that eats up all our Aetherflow stacks (have to use all 3 to activate it). 15 seconds. Never understood these 15s effects - when you have to dance around most of the time dodging AoEs or working some other mechanics, you have 2-2.5s cast times... ugh.

All that while having a pet to manage.

As for Painflare - yeah, that one is nice, except... it's just like a mass-Fester. Without having to apply the individual DoTs, but on a separate cooldown. ... Not sure I see the point.

And let's not even mention the total screw-over that is spell speed - if I haven't seen virtually everyone doing SMN knocking spell speed completely off their relics (and ranking it as far behind everything else as possible on other gear), because it was completely useless, then I haven't seen anyone doing that at all. And all of a sudden - BAM, in your rear, now it's actually needed. Yeah, thank you very much, SE.

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

That Ruin III.... triple the cost for 1.5 potency AND added cast timer AND losing additional debuff effect. Man. Like, what were they thinking? It's indeed pretty ridiculous when compared to SCH's Broil which has a higher potency AND lower MP cost than Ruin III.

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You're supposed to use ruin III during trance, as the mana cost is almost nothing during that time.

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Yes, there is DWT. A 15s buff for 10% additional damage overall, that eats up all our Aetherflow stacks (have to use all 3 to activate it). 15 seconds. Never understood these 15s effects - when you have to dance around most of the time dodging AoEs or working some other mechanics, you have 2-2.5s cast times... ugh.

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I would suggest making sure its a burn phase before you pop your trance. You're supposed to strategist on when to pop it, much like BLM and their rune of power ability.

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As for Painflare - yeah, that one is nice, except... it's just like a mass-Fester. Without having to apply the individual DoTs, but on a separate cooldown. ... Not sure I see the point.

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Helps burn aoe adds down quicker, which was a complaint about the class for a while (not having enough aoe).

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And let's not even mention the total screw-over that is spell speed - if I haven't seen virtually everyone doing SMN knocking spell speed completely off their relics (and ranking it as far behind everything else as possible on other gear), because it was completely useless, then I haven't seen anyone doing that at all. And all of a sudden - BAM, in your rear, now it's actually needed. Yeah, thank you very much, SE.

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Not sure why this is considered a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

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What AF management was that? You unload bane/fester as soon as they were off cooldown unless you were saving them for an upcoming burn phase.

Theres plenty of rotation talk going on in the guide thread.

I can't see parse data at all unfortunately, being on PS4, which puts me at a disadvantage no matter what those who argue against the availability of in-game parsers to see our own DPS say. Anyway, for those who have been min/maxing and analyzing the numbers, does it see. safe to say that for gear at the same ilvl where main stats are the same (so disregarding the NQ i115 stuff and such), wherever we have a choice between gear with Crit/SS and Crit/Det, we should now swap from Crit/Det to Crit/SS? Even if we don't know what the exact implication is of SS on DOT's, I imagine people have gone full Crit/Det vs. Crit/SS and compared the difference. Is it safe to say in order of preference, Crit > Sps > Det, or is it SS > Crit > Det? I know Accuracy is a factor as well, but assuming the cap has been met, I'm interested in what to prioritize afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Zanther

What AF management was that? You unload bane/fester as soon as they were off cooldown unless you were saving them for an upcoming burn phase.

Theres plenty of rotation talk going on in the guide thread.

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You can't really ask a question and then explain that there is another guide thread to talk about rotations. More to the point if you already disagree with what Crevox is saying, which to me sounds like mechanically the class was already difficult and now they made it harder, which I was largely agreeing to. If you didn't think SMN was difficult to play already when trying to maximize, then I would tell you, it's very likely you weren't playing it to it's max.

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

That Ruin III.... triple the cost for 1.5 potency AND added cast timer AND losing additional debuff effect. Man. Like, what were they thinking? It's indeed pretty ridiculous when compared to SCH's Broil which has a higher potency AND lower MP cost than Ruin III.
[..]

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The thing is Ruin III is not even really supposed to be used outside of Dreadwyrm Trance. In the trance it has a similar cost to Ruin. I do in fact use it when soloing or during minor adds where MP is not a problem though. Speaking of which you should be able to mix some in outside of the trance considering that you don't use a whole lot of MP compared to your totals and upgraded Aetherflow returns.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

After hitting 60, I can definitely say, I am having trouble finding the correct route to maximizing DWT. Some people have chosen largely to just refresh whatever skills needed in DWT and just Ruin III for any filler, which any decently skilled SMN can do with ease as it's essentially playing as normal and just activating DWT as a passive to fire off Deathflare soon after. However, I definitely feel there is more to maximizing this skill and it's usage starting right after the first DWT is used in the opener.
[..]

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Using Ifrit:

Ruin II -> Dreadwyrm Trance -> Tri-Disaster -> Ruin III -> Ruin III -> Ruin III -> Ruin II -> Deathflare

You can typically fit in 4 Ruin III's though if you are not interrupted. You should always cast Ruin II with at least 4 seconds remaining to get Deathflare off. Mix in a Ruin II -> Raging Strikes -> Potion just before to enhance Tri-Disaster if you have those off cooldown. I guess you could also Switftcast a Ruin III to fit in a Fester/Painflare but you would need to be careful and allow your attunements to last until your next trance. So that would mean slowing down the subsequent Fester's/Painflare's waiting on Tri-Disaster to come off cooldown. Doing that you do miss out on using Swiftcast on Shadowflare's outside of your trance. You'd trade 0.5 seconds of GCD for 30 or 20 (single target) extra potency respectively using Swiftcast that way. Might not be all that bad of an idea.

Additionally a Miasma II instead of a Ruin III should technically be better overall if you are facing at least 3 targets and they stay alive for 12 seconds. But you also use roughly 2.5x more MP during the trance for it.

That rotation should work with Garuda too though if you want to use Contagion you need to use after the final Ruin II. I don't believe it will fit in the first Ruin II GCD without losing a second of Dreadwyrm Stance. If you wanted you could put in Shadow Flare but it would need to be used with Swiftcast to maximize Ruin III's. I forgo this because I don't usually have a Swiftcast on standby each trance and you could only do that every other trance.

There is not much else you can really do, however. Unless the summon is affected by the trance in which case you can try to squeeze in Enkindle after the second Ruin II. Possibly than mixing in a pet buff during your pre-trance. It lasts 20 seconds so you should be able to use it with Enkindle. I'd choose Spur for this alongside Raging Strikes because of their similar cooldowns. Though to be honest the cooldown on them is long enough that you would only pre-buff Raging Strikes every 6 trances. Because of this Raging Strikes and Spur would only really be in sync once but it would be a 50% increase if magic buff affects the summon. Which would be the key to increase the trance effectiveness: does the trance also affect your summon? I have no idea at this time. An effective 300 potency nuke on top of the 440 from Deathflare both used in the same GCD would be great though on top of the fire DoT if you use Ifrit.

To extend that you could macro Ruin III to command your summon to use Aerial Slash/Flaming Crush + Radiant Shield? I mean this whole pet idea hinges on whether the trance affects your summon. But if it does that would be the advanced way to enhance the effectiveness of the trance.

I think I have literally ran out of ideas/options to maximize a Dreadwyrm Trance so hopefully that helps. :)

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Originally Posted by Superskull85

I think I have literally ran out of ideas/options to maximize a Dreadwyrm Trance so hopefully that helps. :)

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Much appreciated. It's cool to hear what other people are trying out while I try to map out a max rotation over the course of a long encounter. The opener isn't much of an issue for me anymore gladly but trying to figure out how to play post that seems challenging sometimes. Like I'm trying to find something that always lines up correctly.

Currently with like Garuda for example, I can have DoTs falling off, Contagion, Tri-D, DWT all the time at the same time (sometimes alongside Raging Strikes) which allows me to refresh DoTs at higher potency just focus on Ruin III spam. Essentially you delay the Dreadwyrm stance so it's always up with Aetherflow alongside those things I mentioned. Now if that's actually good for an encounter is what I'm trying to figure out. Then eventually seeing if I can try to do the same with Ifrit to some extent even with the absence of Contagion and it still be beneficial over the course of an encounter.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Much appreciated. It's cool to hear what other people are trying out while I try to map out a max rotation over the course of a long encounter. The opener isn't much of an issue for me anymore gladly but trying to figure out how to play post that seems challenging sometimes. Like I'm trying to find something that always lines up correctly.

Currently with like Garuda for example, I can have DoTs falling off, Contagion, Tri-D, DWT all the time at the same time (sometimes alongside Raging Strikes) which allows me to refresh DoTs at higher potency just focus on Ruin III spam. Essentially you delay the Dreadwyrm stance so it's always up with Aetherflow alongside those things I mentioned. Now if that's actually good for an encounter is what I'm trying to figure out. Then eventually seeing if I can try to do the same with Ifrit to some extent even with the absence of Contagion and it still be beneficial over the course of an encounter.

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By the way, I updated the front page with more info if you want to use it. The one thing I'm really curious about is Titan enmity and what his auto attack is.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Like I'm trying to find something that always lines up correctly.
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You'll be forced to line up Aetherflow stacks with Dreadwyrm Trance if you ever want to make use of it. Lining up Tri-Disaster/Deathflare is easy because they have 30 second cooldowns as well and every other buff is a multiple of 30 seconds so those should be easy too. I don't think you'll ever avoid DoT's dropping off at some point especially if you ever need to move. I do a typical Shadow Flare -> Bio -> Bio II -> Miasma mixing in Ruin when I don't need an attunement and Ruin II for an attunement. Doing that I refresh all 3 once (staggered) before I go into a trance. Doing that I can get off several trances in a typical boss fight and not lose a single DoT. My timers line up perfectly. I use Ifrit but Garuda is no different since you'd ideally want Contagion with your trance which luckily lasts 60 seconds making your timings line up nicely and allowing you roughly 3 Ruin I's since you wouldn't need to refresh every other trance.

Hopefully that made sense. That kind of idea has been working well for me. I can give you the full rotation but outside of the trance rotation I am not doing anything new since I don't really want to hasten my attunement stacks (ie I don't really want to have full attunement in 3 GCD's unless I really want to in the very beginning of a fight when I have 3 Aetherflow stacks and Aetherflow off cooldown). Which BTW you can use Energy Drain to add a third attunement for single target fights if you wanted a speed attunement. I guess this last bit could be amended for a brief increase to your trance usage.

It seems the new actions work best when used together so I tend to keep it that way. Having even 30 second cooldowns makes it easy to line up just right which is a nice thing about Summoners.

Front page updated! :)

Front page updated! :)

Front page updated! :) I have finally reached 60 and played will all the new SMN toys. My thoughts under each skill!

Front page updated! :)

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Deathflare is pretty good, but it's a 400 potency attack that can be used once every 45 seconds or so. A flashy way to finish Dreadwyrm attack, but by the time you've set-up three stacks of Aether for this, most of the mobs will have died already. It's super flashy, but all the set-up you have to do will likely result in you never actually using it, or only using it on the last remaining enemy. In boss fights, you might use it quite a few times.

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Uhm have u ever tried Deathflare on lvl 60 mobs? I use it on nearly every mob encounter i ran into... starting with (swiftcasted) Shadowflare, Tri-saster, Bane, Fester, Painflare > Bahamuts Trance, Ruin lll spam > Deathflare. It only takes around 5 secs to come to the Ruin lll part - 10 secs to Deathflare. Never encountered an HW mob which died before Deathflare was ready... :)