Here are some very old charts http://valk.dancing-mad.com/methodology/#BnP There isn't anything to test though since 3.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
New Shield Swipe - role is reversed?
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11-13-2015, 07:00 AMMyric
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11-13-2015, 08:15 AMPileus_StormI tested the update changes and you guys were right and I'm done with this game. It's become a game where all I have to do is plug and play gear on with no thought. Which is on a pay to win scope IMO. Where all you have to do to complete a dungeon is remember a pattern of avoiding attacks just to survive. What's the fun in that. I've never run from a fight or avoided trouble. I'm not gonna start now and especially not in a game. Your character is basically like everyone else's character minus the gear drops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myric
Thanks for the dream SE but I have to move on to something that will excite my intellect. -
11-13-2015, 09:33 AMJpec07The restrictive roles and builds of this game certainly aren't for everyone. One of the guild-mates of mine who came with my friends and I to FFXIV from WoW used to relish the opportunity to do things that his chosen spec wasn't supposed to be able to do (and he was good). But because FFXIV is as restrictive as it is, he just wasn't happy and couldn't be satisfied on any of his characters, and so dropped the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pileus_Storm
I do hope you find a game that suits your interests, Pileus. I hear Rift allows for some crazy in-depth customization like what you seem to be looking for, and what I've seen of the gameplay is pretty damn good. You might also try TOR, because I believe they just also did an ARR-style revamp (though I can't speak to customizing or hybridizing your character). Good luck, in any case! -
11-13-2015, 10:01 AMPileus_Storm
LMAO @the comment with my avatar.
It wasn't as restrictive as it is now until ppl started complaining about the dungeon drops with the stat builds on them. Saying that these stats weren't as active as the should be. No blocks were occurring when geared up with fending gear which is loaded with parry. Then the idea that you'd parry and block more with DEX was tedious because DEX was a stat for DPS. They tried to make this game with depth. The fact that ppl felt that it would take up a lot of time there needed to be a simplified attribute system. I watched the change occur hoping the attribute change wouldn't be THIS restrictive and so simplified. It's more for children now. They can just level up and play. Go through dungeons follow someone's lead and they'd be set. -
11-13-2015, 10:30 AMSpookyGhostDEX affecting Block was never really a thing that mattered, if you were gearing toward DEX you were only gimping yourself. I think you fell for some weird illusion of choice you forced into existence. This game has always been extremely linear on gear progression, the only avenue that ever existed that deviated from the norm was tanks wearing Pentamelds/STR accessories. If you're quitting over the lack of variety in gearing then I totally understand, but it's... strange that it took you this long to realize that was a thing in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pileus_Storm
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11-13-2015, 12:42 PMPileus_Storm
I wasn't gimping myself. It was a stat that affected the rate of blocking and my intention was to use it in a variety of ways with the different types of shields. It was pretty useful in the earlier versions of the game but as players seemed to juggle multiple jobs they couldn't seem to grasp the concept of a job using two weapons needing DEX. They just looked at as if the defense stat on the gear should trigger a block. Which in my mind is kind of simple and too easy. All you have to do is put on armor and you have the skills of a seasoned gladiator. Instead of adjusting your DEX to accommodate the block rates for specific shields. Which would separate knowledgeable players from ppl who just want to run through content because an item in a dungeon looks nice. My trek through dungeons would have been with crafted gear with materia melded to it for a more challenging feel.
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11-13-2015, 12:57 PMPileus_Storm
It was intended for that. If it wasn't it would've never been there in the earlier stages of the game. It was the community cry about DEX is a stat that shouldn't be used on a GLD/tank for a block effect. So ppl started putting on fending gear just because it dropped by default for the job. I thought the specific drops of a job was to be used with cross classes because they all have the ALL CLASSES in the job use on the accessory. Giving players the option to modify their character to their liking. But the community had post so many comments about this concept and now it makes no sense to use any accessory other than an accessory with stats that benefit it's job.
Right now I'm thinking I should use my alt and do the DoM since they haven't messed up the magic stats.
The objective was to meld just enough DEX to trigger a block not in essence to replace STR. Again you are thinking just like the others for DEX being used for DPS attack power..
What you put up there doesn't make any sense. You are statting the gear as if they have added effects. The shields are for defense and the class skills are used as threat. You have Shield Lob, Shield Bash and Shield Swipe. Their potency are listed as well as their added affect. The Shields don't generate a damage potency.
STR + Buckler
None of the shield have any added affect attached to them. They have delay and auto attack time. The extra crap you have there is you imagining what they do. I think you have no idea what you're talking about and trying to find out whether I know what I'm talking about.
[db:item=95275db45ac]Iron Lantern Shield[/db:item]
The objective of DEX would be to take advantage of the block rate. The higher the block rate the least amount of DEX a player would need to affix to gear and I wouldn't necessarily affix it to the shield. DEX could be put in any piece of gear to reach the minimal amount required. Leaving room for other stats that could contribute to offense. Like the lantern has ACC which is a passive ability and you could add DET and CRT. You are thinking pretty narrow minded and small. Some gear can affix 5 pieces of materia to them that leaves a possibility of a lot of stat options. Spread across 12 pieces of combined gear and accessories. -
11-13-2015, 01:12 PMSpookyGhost
Here's a pretty easy run down:
STR + Buckler = High threat, high damage, high block rate, average block strength
DEX + Tower = average block rate, high block strength
STR + Kite = High threat, high damage, average block rate, high block strength
DEX + Kite = high block rate, average block strength
So any situation where you could've melded STR but instead melded DEX, you end up at a loss of damage and consequently threat. What you gain is more block rating, which sounds great on paper but DEX actually scaled horribly and it required a huge amount of DEX to make any splash of difference at all. On top of this the increased block rating usually didn't make any difference at all, as it still has a very low chance to proc on tank busters and it's impossible to tell if the DEX made any difference at all on that. The sole use of DEX was on crafted left side equipment, however this only had use in early progression as the VIT + STR + secondaries you gained from higher ilvl gear instantly outweigh the benefits of DEX.
If things were kept as is, PLDs would still stack STR in 3.0 as the current meta calls for high tank damage and PLD gained Sheltron which is a free block every 30s. If you had the option between slightly raising the chance that Shield Swipe would proc when you wanted it to (and slightly raising your block % chance) or increasing Sheltron's mitigation %, which would you take?
I wish there was a choice because I love the idea of having multiple gearing paths that have different positive effects on how you play. I think that would be healthy for the game and I think it would allow for some playstyle variance. But unfortunately, DEX just did very little and only had one niche use. -
11-13-2015, 03:28 PMPileus_Storm
Every time I explain it to you ppl you get it twisted. It's almost like you think you know more than me. If a gear piece has STR on it the chance of you getting more STR in the gear piece that's already in it is impossible so why even try? That's asinine. Why would you put STR materia in a piece of gear that already has a lot of STR in it already you're wasting materia and slots. I know no matter how much I explain it to you you won't see what I mean.
For instance an accessory that has VIT and PAR on it I could add STR and DEX but that all depends on the amount of DEX I needed. Which I may not need to add it to the accessory if I can put enough in a gear set that has a bunch of STR in it. So in a VIT and PAR accessory I may be able to max out on STR instead of trying to squeeze low level materia in a slot in my body gear filled with STR by default.
So you'd try to put more STR in the shield with STR already in it?
I can tell by your comment you're lying about DEX not making a difference. When I used it in dungeons ppl were amazed at how much my character was mitigating damage and this was crafted gear with materia melded to it strategically. I didn't overload DEX when using a high block rate shield and my STR was awesome because damage mitigation was at zero, and dodges and parry was zero. I'm speaking from experience not assumption.
The healer shouted to the party that he was healing the DPS more than the tank and I had all the hate. He tried to take hate but couldn't. I've been in dungeons were ppl would get mad cause I had DEX on my gear but when I fight started they kept quiet. The party survived but they died because they didn't like most ppl set up defense on their character. I also think the healer stopped healing him because he was acting like it was my fault his character was taking a lot of damage while he had no hate on him.
Ppl messed up a fun game because of ignorant perspectives. -
11-13-2015, 03:40 PMJpec07
Probably not, because the gear you get from level 60 dungeons doesn't have materia slots. And even though they did (will?) add the ability to meld materia to 200 stuff, you're forced into secondary stats (only proper sockets can hold INT, STR, and DEX anymore - advanced melding only works on secondary stat materia).
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11-13-2015, 04:05 PMSpookyGhostAh. My mistake, thought we were talking about raid content/single target bosses. Yeah, block rate is more powerful than block strength in AOE trash pulls. STR won't do much for you there, whereas DEX has some value. We are talking about content that can be tanked easily at a relatively low ilvl, though, so I'm not sure if DEX stacking was worth the investment there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pileus_Storm
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11-13-2015, 05:13 PMFreyyy
This guy is so hipster
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11-13-2015, 05:21 PMaerololGo now. Bye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pileus_Storm
You will not be missed.
This thread is just so full of fail -
11-14-2015, 03:15 AMPileus_StormYou obviously wanted to meet me by leaving a comment and my intriguing presence.Quote:
Originally Posted by aerolol
I know one thing I won't miss your ignorance. -
11-14-2015, 03:26 AMPileus_StormOMG....LMAOLAMF....Not even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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11-14-2015, 04:49 AMMalicewolfOther people having more knowledge is not an issue. It's a fact of life. Get used to it. And obviously, the people who have been responding to you in here this entire time DO know more than you. Otherwise, you would not of admitted DEX buids are no longer useful and you would've continued playing your DEX build and trying to convince everyone that it was a better build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pileus_Storm
I have no issue's with people thinking outside the box or trying new things. But you are extremely coarse and rude in your responses. You basically come in here, make a statement (which everyone came and informed you was wrong) then told THEM that they are wrong and obviously stupid (just to end up finding out YOURSELF that they were right). Now you are telling people that they couldn't possibly be more knowledgeable than you in this game?
If you weren't so rude in how you answer people, there really wouldn't be an issue. Majority of those in here have tried to be very nice in responding to you. There were a few that weren't, yes, but you also fueled that fire... -
11-15-2015, 04:22 AMPileus_Storm
No I responded that DEX was useful to the tank because it triggered a block and parry but ppl have complained about the idea of DEX being the attack power of DPS and it shouldn't be used for tanks. And that the defense in the tank gear should be used to trigger a block and parry. I feel that it was useful in character design. It would give players more depth in how to gear up for dungeons and raids. They didn't want it to have a duel role. As well as STR not having a duel role either. STR was used to mitigate damage now it doesn't. It's just attack power. They have made this game linear as fuck. That's the problem I have. Most ppl can't think of how to develop a character so they want the developers to do it for them.
If you didn't understand the attributes could be used in different ways than maybe you shouldn't played this game. No, instead ppl complained about what they thought didn't make sense to make the game easier for them.
If you didn't understand let me explain it again.
STR was the attack power for the tank
DEX was the attack power for the DPS
For specific tank actions those two attributes complimented each other. DEX triggered a block or parry and STR mitigated damage when a block or parry occurred. I was not replacing STR with DEX nor was I adding DEX to accessories in place of STR. My understanding of the gear was that it was at its limit of STR so my intent of using DEX was to apply just enough to trigger a block according to the preferred shield and gear combo. The character build was to create a character that actually tanked. I see ppl in dungeons and Raids running away from specific enemy actions instead of gearing up for defense. The defense that they use is already on the gear. So basically everything is laid out and you don't have to do anything but get looted gear and play. They've made materia useless. The only materia worth using is the crafting materia and ppl are complaining about that. Ppl now make materia to sell to players who don't know how easy it is to make materia. -
11-15-2015, 06:31 AMPileus_StormQuote:
Originally Posted by Malicewolf
All you ppl are doing is debating my comments. You aren't listening and understanding. Every time I comment you twist to mean something that I'm not saying. That's not being nice. That's being rude. You're ignoring my comments by claiming it's irrelevant. -
11-15-2015, 07:37 AMFreyyyBecause it is irrelevant. It's as simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pileus_Storm
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11-15-2015, 08:22 AMPileus_StormQuote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
I guess it is after you ppl influenced the change in this game... It's only irrelevant for ppl who didn't care about the dynamics of this game and just wanted things to be simple. It's rude to say someone's opinion is irrelevant and it's funny how all of you are teaming up on me to defuse my point ove view. SMH W.A.P. -
11-15-2015, 08:45 AMFreyyyWhen someone's opinion goes completely against what has been proved to be the very truth, it is irrelevant. Even when DEX did affect block and parry, it was so, SO weak, and scaled SO poorly that it made almost NO difference at all. Believing so strongly that it did make so much of a difference that wearing DEX jewelry was a viable gearing decision vs STR or VIT is bullshitting yourself in a pretty brutal way. They just deleted an already useless feature. People here are trying to make you understand that, but you keep rejecting all the arguments in a very inappropriate way without really trying to understand the truth. THIS is rude and makes you look bad, thus making people react rude with you like I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pileus_Storm
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11-15-2015, 03:43 PMPileus_Storm
So you're reiterating someone else's theory and not your own. Never done it yourself. LMAOLAMF
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11-15-2015, 05:26 PMFreyyy
You have the tendency to make false assumptions about people you don't know anything about, and that's also why people are reacting rude with you. Now leave please, I'm not gonna waste anymore time to answer you.
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11-16-2015, 12:46 AMSapphidiaThere were many studies done into the relative effect of Dexterity on block and parry rates. The rate at which 1 point of Dexterity increased your block and parry was -tiny-. Going full Dex in every available slot back in 2.0 would have had only a small percentage increase in boost to the relative rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pileus_Storm
You can't say "well I did it and it worked" because you can't argue with the maths. You could tank instances in leather or cloth armor and not die and say "it worked" but everyone knows plate would be better. Yes, I'm sure you probably did tank with full Dex and blocked 4-5% more hits than someone else, but at the cost of less damage or less block amount or less vitality. It's small tradeoffs, and the maths very much said that the boost to efficiency from stacking Dex over just about ANY other stat was almost negligible.
There's nothing more to say. Dex stacking was bad. Well done if you managed to tank fine with dex everywhere, and I fully understand the desire to want to be different and want to specialise your paladin into mitigation... but the maths on the amount that Dexterity boosted the mitigation rate just made it awful. Yes, in socketable armor where the Str and Vit were maxed out, Dex was the only primary stat you could socket, but Crit and Det both would have been available in these slots and would make a bigger impact.
Fact is : if you'd swapped out all that Dex for Crit, or Det, or anything, you would have had basically the same survivability but done noticeably more damage. You were needlessly nerfing your own performance but you can't see this because you assume that "it worked" therefore your way was fine. It wasnt. Dex was always, ALWAYS, a terrible stat to stack. It increased your block and parry, yes, but by such a teeny tiny amount it was never worth it.
Shame really, as I wish it was. I'd have loved to be a mass-blocking Dex tank if it actually mattered. You're living in a fantasy world though if you honestly think it did.
Also what the hell happened to this thread, it was a mild musing about Shield Swipe at the start of 3.0 until it was necroed into this overt trollfest of terrible recommendations. -
11-16-2015, 01:14 AMMyricPeople keep responding back to his idiocy and feed his trolling. He always needs the last word so let him make some other dumb statement and let the thread go back to the grave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphidia
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11-16-2015, 03:29 AMPileus_StormNone of you should've responded to me if you didn't like my comments. All I did was comment my experience not a test.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy