Holy and Flare diminishing returns nerf

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Heaven forbid people will have to run through dungeons the right way instead of GameSharking their way through them. Maybe this'll also drive away the hotshot tanks who can't manage hate.

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If you don't think we'll simply switch to the next best class for AoE, you're delusional. You'd have to nerf EVERY AoE to ever stop speedruns.

I think a lot of what is misunderstood here is mass pulling occurred whether or not a white mage or black mage was present. Having one or the other simply meant being able to do AOE pulls was faster. As healer I had no problem letting a lesser geared tank pull less, and as tank I ask healers what pace they would like they to go. Rather than have a chance at variable speeds now, groups will all move roughly the same speed with mass pulling still happening. I feel especially sorry for black mages, because they were supposed to be the superior aoe damage job.

The only two times when either job was the more attractive choice was in DD runs (whm) and mythflox runs (whm/blm), but in both instances that's more attributed to bad game design rather than job balance.

I'm just gonna say, that's still a lot of AoE damage. Even at their minimum damage dealt, it's still on par to the damage that other classes deal. Holy and Flare get the benefit of hitting harder for a few mobs, so it'll probably even out to more damage than compared to other classes and jobs still. Just now it's more even so people won't demand BLM/WHM only compositions, and all jobs will be viable for speed running now.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

If you don't think we'll simply switch to the next best class for AoE, you're delusional. You'd have to nerf EVERY AoE to ever stop speedruns.

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130 under A3 is still better than almost every aoe in the game and the first few targets are basically not phased by the change (and the one you target isn't). Oh and infinite MP still makes them top when all other aoe tends to have disproportional costs to the single target moves.

Assize seems overpowered...
No MP cost, instant cast, 300 potency damage, 300 potency heal, and recover 10% of WHM MP.
In a 90s cooldown.


For comparison, Holy is 200 potency, medica is 300 cure potency, and Shroud of Saints has 120s cooldown...
=o

SE and the developers should just come out and state their law that "THE PLAYERS must play the game our way. If we discover any deviation from our way, we shell take action upon these deviations."

It's just dungeon fodder, why should they care how the players deal with them. First it was the reduction of experience points on dungeon fodder and now I'm reading about this. Seriously, I think we're going to see nothing but suicide runs to the boss line and locking out the fodder. It seem there's no reason to actually waste time on them, unless they need to be killed to open some door.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Heaven forbid people will have to run through dungeons the right way instead of GameSharking their way through them. Maybe this'll also drive away the hotshot tanks who can't manage hate.

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3 mob pack pull, wait a minute to open a door, 3 mob pack pull, wait a minute to open a door, 3 mob pack pull, wait a minute to open a door, boss fight with one mechanic. Repeat 3 times before exiting dungeon. Report to your supervising GM if you're not having the exact officially sanctioned amount of fun per minute for interrogations, any attempt at intentionally deviating from the SE-approved fun per minute plan will be considered a breach of the terms of service.

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Originally Posted by aerolol

Assize seems overpowered...
No MP cost, instant cast, 300 potency damage, 300 potency heal, and recover 10% of WHM MP.
In a 90s cooldown.

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It's a good ability, mainly for the MP recovery. The other stuff is nice too but it will (in all likelihood) end up being a shitty healing spell but a good damaging spell in Cleric Stance, whilst being an alright heal and a flaccid damaging spell outside of Cleric Stance. Also, it can probably miss (and will likely miss) in raiding content with the damage part of the skill.

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Originally Posted by aerolol

Assize seems overpowered...
No MP cost, instant cast, 300 potency damage, 300 potency heal, and recover 10% of WHM MP.
In a 90s cooldown.


For comparison, Holy is 200 potency, medica is 300 cure potency, and Shroud of Saints has 120s cooldown...
=o

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It's also on CD so the only thing you can compare it with it SoS, which i'm sure has more mp refresh potency anyway. Also let's not forget that the INT stat is at base to 300 potency is like 100 in reality. That or you go in to cleric stance and make the heal like 100 potency. Seems fair to me. Do you really compare Dragonfire Dive to a move on GCD like Doomspike?

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Originally Posted by Corfish

Just now it's more even so people won't demand BLM/WHM only compositions, and all jobs will be viable for speed running now.

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Except nobody was demanding the comps anyway aside from two rare instances. DD exp runs (which were nerfed in 3.0) and 2.1 mythflox runs when you needed like 14500 myth for the Animus. Hell, there's been more consistent demand for raid comps with BRD or NIN over any dungeon running comps requiring you to have a WHM or BLM. When is the last time you saw "ex roulette group whm/blm only please" in the PF? It's silly to reduce dungeon clearing speed for people who happen to be playing those classes or randomly roll into a roulette group, because that's where they shine. When raid time rolls around, there won't be any Holy or Flare spamming. So why not let them shine where they can?

Whole lot of butthurt white mages up in here.

Just as planned.

Watch out, we got someone being clever.

At least it was good while it lasted. WHM spamming holy makes my daily ex roulette so much faster. That and WHM has like a 3-min queue. I'm really going to miss it. People will find another way to speedrun because when one door closes, another opens up.

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Originally Posted by OmegaFlare

At least it was good while it lasted. WHM spamming holy makes my daily ex roulette so much faster. That and WHM has like a 3-min queue. I'm really going to miss it. People will find another way to speedrun because when one door closes, another opens up.

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There will probably be no change... Difference now is that BLM and WHM can use different moves now...

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Originally Posted by Tyrn

3 mob pack pull, wait a minute to open a door, 3 mob pack pull, wait a minute to open a door, 3 mob pack pull, wait a minute to open a door, boss fight with one mechanic. Repeat 3 times before exiting dungeon. Report to your supervising GM if you're not having the exact officially sanctioned amount of fun per minute for interrogations, any attempt at intentionally deviating from the SE-approved fun per minute plan will be considered a breach of the terms of service.

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Stone Vigil and Aurum Vale had better dungeon designs with big rooms of roaming monsters and stuff. Not sure what happened and we started getting these corridors of trash and gates....

I'm not happy about the nerf, but more importantly I'm thinking of all the lawlzy things I'm going to yell out in my head before casting Assize...

"My body too bootylicious for ya, baby! Assize!"

"My anaconda don't want none unless you got buns! Assize!"

...seriously, that skill name. xD

Thts cool lol good so now i dont have to holy spam on speed runs. Yay now i can just chuck 1 or 2 & call it a day.

Damn guys calm down... Looking at the tooltips Aero III and Asize are going to make up for it.

you do realise that the spell will still be really strong... i mean come on and aoe 3sec stun is super strong. With the damage it used to deal, it was OP. BLM have plenty more way to aoe and a Flare will still do a freaking high amount of damage.

People crying for no reason, as usual.

Most of the dungeons in HW so far will be leveling dungeons, so they'll probably be synched too. Don't recall being able to speedrun pre 50 dungeons so who cares. They don't take that much longer.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Most of the dungeons in HW so far will be leveling dungeons, so they'll probably be synched too. Don't recall being able to speedrun pre 50 dungeons so who cares. They don't take that much longer.

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People try to speed run 50's on Famfrit.

My DRG self is laughing as they all tank the floor, WHM panics, and I have to save the day. XD

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Whole lot of butthurt white mages up in here.

Just as planned.

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Lol butthurt... all i see is a 140 base potency dot (aero I+II+III) + instant cast 450 burst dps with assize and fluid aura with 10% mp regain, and that's just on single target, on aoe aero III beats holy in total potency with assize being stronger than current flare (with mp restoration). They nerfed holy and gave whm a LOT more dps, no more mash 1 button to win.

I'm amazed with the Flare's MP cost, that means Level 60 BLM has 11400 MP (Maybe with IL170 set). I wonder how much healer's MP will get.

for the people complaining of SE forcing their view to them, remember turn 2.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Lol butthurt... all i see is a 140 base potency dot (aero I+II+III) + instant cast 450 burst dps with assize and fluid aura with 10% mp regain, and that's just on single target, on aoe aero III beats holy in total potency with assize being stronger than current flare (with mp restoration). They nerfed holy and gave whm a LOT more dps, no more mash 1 button to win.

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And I freaking love it. I don't hate white mages doing DPS, I just hate them doing stupid high stunlocking AoE DPS that beats anything that's not an BLM by mashing one button.

Now they both don't intrude on people dedicated to the class, are still contributing useful damage, and have to actually do things. And I am super okay with that.

Not seeing how this stops Holy spam or Flare since they still outpace most AoE in the game with these changes(currently).

If they want to get rid of multi pack pulling, they should nerf the tanks instead. Make them unable to hold threat on so many mobs so easily. Holding 6+ mobs while having the dps at way less than half your enmity by just sneezing out 1 aoe button is kinda absurd. But then again, that's what SE intentionally did to the tanks over time. They can take away the enmity buffs again but that'd make tanking harder for some of the tanks, a job population that is the most sought. Some might end up quitting making tanks even more rare.

Guess you just can't avoid problems with vertical progression stat hikes and players' increasing expectation of what they can do to mobs lol.

So no more "DD 1st room only aoe classes"? Too bad. /s

If WHM and BLM were so overpowered at AoE'ing compared to other classes, then I would've preferred that they beef up other classes to be more comparable. Or at least make AoE'ing more appealing and intuitive to them. Especially for physical-damage classes, maybe half or more of them that I see in Lv.50 dungeons either don't AoE, or don't do it well and just end up wasting a lot of TP for low output.

I don't think tackling trash mobs one group at a time is particularly fun to anyone; they're mostly just meant to slow you down like random encounters in other games.
Only they're more rewarding in other games. And you could usually run from them if you didn't want to deal with them.
If I have to deal with mobs here, then I'd rather be given options to clear them faster/easier/safer, not slower.

That diminishing return is too steep.

BLM's going to be last in aoe damage.

It should start after 4 mobs total. Its a general rule that AoE's are break-even in efficiency when 3 mobs are present. 2 or less its not efficient at all, so nerf is unjustified for 2 or less mobs.

Synesthetic... please stop acting like it's the end of mass trash pull when it's not -_-

They're buffing fire 2 to compensate, WHM gains tons of aoe damage.

You'll be fine. You'll lose maybe 3 sec on your run.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

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Dude, BLM wouldn't be "last in AoE damage" if they removed Flare altogether. I'm more against the nerfing to Flare than I am to Holy(Oh god yes finally no more cocky WHM who think they're the best at two roles), but even with the nerfs, BLM is incredibly AoE capable. Especially with the tweaks to spell speed and Ley Lines existing, it just means you'll be able to drop Flares on faces more often than ever. Honestly, I'm not super broken up about it.

ooo damn lol although I just thought that maybe the diminishing return would start from the 4th target onwards rather than from the 2nd.

Is dragonfire dive's aoe also reduced?

It seems odd to reduce damage based on number of mobs when that is the entire point of the spells.

So long as they make up for it by adding more aoe spells im fine with it tho, Not that i have a choice but to accept it.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

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According to the patch notes, the only skills that are gonna be changed up for Dragoon is Heavy Thrust, Life Surge, and Plebotomize. Don't think Dragonfire Dive needs to be changed seeing how you can't exactly use that skill all the time.

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Originally Posted by Shamirah

Synesthetic... please stop acting like it's the end of mass trash pull when it's not -_-

They're buffing fire 2 to compensate, WHM gains tons of aoe damage.

You'll be fine. You'll lose maybe 3 sec on your run.

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Please read without bias and don't see tears where there are not. I never wailed that it was the end of mass-pulling, nor did I say anything as if I were abhorrently against single-pulling.

I didn't know that Fire2 was getting buffed to compensate (and I don't understand why bother nerfing Flare, since this doesn't change the AoE rotation then), so thank you for that tidbit.
But my stance is still the same: buffs to lacking classes > nerfs to stronger classes.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

ooo damn lol although I just thought that maybe the diminishing return would start from the 4th target onwards rather than from the 2nd.

Is dragonfire dive's aoe also reduced?

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new DRG skills

A 50% reduction in damage is a lot, yes, but that is the lowest it goes. Remember, in pulls that are upwards of 9 and 10 mobs at a time, 50% of Flare's base damage is still a hell of a lot. No, it's not what it was. Not by a long shot, but with a boost in AOE damage on Fire 2, this may be a not so subtle hint for players to try a new rotation other than Fire2, Fire2, Fire2, Fire 2, Flare. Such a boring rotation was one reason I can't stand to play the class anyways. Not that I plan to play it in the expansion either. Too busy with my tanks. Summoner and Scholar are about the only things I'll have time for, and that's just because they share their levels.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

with assize being stronger than current flare (with mp restoration).

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Your math is very wrong. Assize would never beat current Flare unless the Flare is being cast unbuffed or under Umbral Ice, which is why you don't do that. If it were under even AFI, it would be stronger than Assize will ever be for damage.

For nerfed Flare under AFIII, which is what you'll most often cast it with, it still beats Assize at 10 mobs. At 11 mobs, Assize wins by 24 potency, and wins by an additional 66 potency per mob past the 11th.

Numbers:

Flare=260 base x 1.8 for AFIII, -10% per mob after the first, minimum 50%

468+421.2+374.4+327.6+280.8+(234x6)=3276 potency over 11 mobs

Assize=300 base, no multipliers or diminishing returns

300x11=3300 potency over 11 mobs

3300-3276=24 potency difference, at 11 mobs.

WoW's aoes, the ones that aren't flat out target capped(hits up to X number of targets, ignores all others in the area of effect) do this.

The more targets you have, the less damage per target it does.