Mass pulls: don't do this.

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Originally Posted by Launched

It's absolutely no effort to Tomahawk/Flash mobs as you pass. If you don't do that, you're lazy. It lets healers heal/Stoneskin you as you pull, and that's useful because some mobs are faster than you, or are ranged, or you just can't avoid running through them.

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Sprinting makes it so healers don't need to heal/stoneskin you mid pull, as does corner cutting while lobbing one mob. Just because you take a ton of damage and require heals mid pulls doesn't mean we are all that bad.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

Sprinting makes it so healers don't need to heal/stoneskin you mid pull, as does corner cutting while lobbing one mob. Just because you take a ton of damage and require heals mid pulls doesn't mean we are all that bad.

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Just because you play PLD with no damage for aoe pulls doesn't mean we all do.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

When you say "bad habit" or "crutch" I am so confused by what you actually mean in this situation, no offense, because tanking's not hard, you just do what your gear allows.

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I say crutch because there is no disadvantage to pulling and hitting buttons as you run. Just because it 'can' be done face pulling doesn't make it in anyway better, or more efficient. It's a safety measure. Just because you can drive without a seat belt and not die doesn't make it a good idea. It's something so suptidly simple and can save your butt. Just like aggro on pulls isn't always needed but it's so easy to do, and can save you when thi ng s don't go well that it's dumb not to.

Again:
fact: given a choice between tank pulling with aggro, or without aggro, aggro is unequivocally better. There is no advantage at all to having zero hate vs some hate. That is not a debatable point. If you can wave a magic wand to have aggro on everything you face pull it would be better 100% of the time.

Fact: many tanks have been, and continue to pull without taking stupid amounts of damage by hitting buttons on the run to generate aggro on stuff.

Simple logic: aggro better than no aggro+ways to make aggro without excessive damage =better than face pull. Therefore tanks that don't are just adding risk because they can't be bothered to hit buttons. Lazy. Bad. Insert term. If aggro is better and can be done without any real penalties, but yu choose not to anyway, what else do you call that
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We get it. Pld sprint is cool in certain circumstances. That doesn't undo the fundamentals of mass pulls.

Pld sprint runs are a special case that don't make efficiencies in all groups (need castor dps so all can sprint) and obviously doesn't work for wars. What plds can add in run speed wars can add in damage anyway.

Really, OP is right. As someone who mains BOTH tanking classes, planning on including the third as well, and plays as scholar and summoner, any time I see a tank pulling a group of mobs using just proximity agro, or who aren't able to time their Flashes of Overpowers correctly to hit everything automatically loses my commendation when I dps or heal. Go back to tanking 101 if you can't perform these simple tasks. It isn't even hard to know which mob you failed to gain agro on, as there is a list of mobs that are aggroed to you, and it is all too easy to cycle through those names to find the one you missed (Or maybe that's just because I play on PC, in which case, get gud or don't bother trying). This isn't the kiddy pool dps league where all you do is lawl, button mash, and giggle at the high numbers. Your job as a tank is to get and maintain the attention of a mob, and only letting that attention go in the event of things like tank switches, or if agro is simply impossible to establish due to a fight mechanic. If a tank can't do that in the face of Regen, Medica II, or Fey Covenant, then go back to the pre 50s and learn your job again, or seek help from someone who knows the job inside and out. The tools are all there, this isn't an issue with the game or your hardware. This is a PICNIC issue... Problem In Chair Not In Computer. If you accidentally miss one mob, then pick it up. Don't just keep running away and let the healer get punched in the face, or they will let you get gang banged by your pull. If a dps pulls a mob off your group, then you're likely not at fault, because they should be waiting until you establish a base of operations before releasing their load all over the place. But if your healer gets agro, then you're doing something wrong. There is NO reason for your healer to out agro you. Everyone always says there's so many ways to play a class, but the truth of it is, there are only one or two best ways to play them. Learn them or beat it, those are your options. No one else should have to hold your hand and tell you you're just such a special snowflake and that others just have to change their methods for your entitled butt. Protect your healer, pick up all the trash on your pull, and maintain agro. That's your job, so do it. Also, you can drop buffs like regen, medica II, Fey Covenant, and even Stoneskin and Protect off your bar early by right clicking on them. I suppose that might be ANOTHER benefit of playing an MMO on a computer instead of a console though.

TL;DR If dps gets your pull agro, their fault. If healer takes your pull agro, your fault. Get gud or play something else.

P.S. I don't care if I sound heartless either. Only scrubs don't like the truth of it.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Simple logic: aggro better than no aggro+ways to make aggro without excessive damage =better than face pull. Therefore tanks that don't are just adding risk because they can't be bothered to hit buttons. Lazy. Bad. Insert term. If aggro is better and can be done without any real penalties, but yu choose not to anyway, what else do you call that.

Pld sprint runs are a special case that don't make efficiencies in all groups (need castor dps so all can sprint) and obviously doesn't work for wars. What plds can add in run speed wars can add in damage anyway.

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The penalties being more damage taken and the risk of overhealing pulling agro off the 1 lob on each mob because a LOT of pulls require you to run stupidly out of the way in order to walk into the middle to flash, or stand around for a couple seconds as they all get to you while you could instead lob 1 and keep running, take less damage and NOT require that healing.

I should really point out that my sprint methods are for use with premade groups only, don't try that in df pugs, way to many stupid people to pull it off without someone taking agro from you, in df pugs flash/lob everything and stop yourself short of what you would do with a premade because most people suck.

Also don't need caster dps, fists of wind, ninja speed, swiftsong, really only leaves drgs behind and if they don't attack anything they can be back at 800-900 tp by fight time anyways. Also wars can pull this off too with goad or a bard playing tp song before pull starts.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

Your job as a tank is to get and maintain the attention of a mob, and only letting that attention go in the event of things like tank switches, or if agro is simply impossible to establish due to a fight mechanic. If a tank can't do that in the face of Regen, Medica II, or Fey Covenant, then go back to the pre 50s and learn your job again, or seek help from someone who knows the job inside and out.

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You obviously have never played a tank (I read what you said but really? I mean seriously?) because anyone who has can tell you that initial agro automatically goes to healer if the tank isn't smart enough to click off regen/medica 2. It's easy enough to pick back up but advocating mass pulling with either of these going is just plain stupid.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

Also, you can drop buffs like regen, medica II, Fey Covenant, and even Stoneskin and Protect off your bar early by right clicking on them. I suppose that might be ANOTHER benefit of playing an MMO on a computer instead of a console though.

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You did read the part in the OP about regen mid pull right?

Also paragraphs... enough said.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

You obviously have never played a tank (I read what you said but really? I mean seriously?) because anyone who has can tell you that initial agro automatically goes to healer if the tank isn't smart enough to click off regen/medica 2. It's easy enough to pick back up but advocating mass pulling with either of these going is just plain stupid.

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How about using the search info function of the lodestone before assuming I don't play tank? Might make you look less like an idiot. Both tanks at 50, and my character is even displayed on the Lodestone for you in my DPS trinkets. Use your tools before you try to be a tool. Yes, I've done this though, pulled without shrugging off my healer's HOTs. It isn't so hard honestly, especially if you're expecting the initial loss of agro. Look where your healer is (likely behind you, hurr durr) and anticipate the location of the mobs. It isn't so hard to even just use a provoke to avoid the GCD of shield lob, then flash or overpower right at the precise moment necessary to get the full group. You make it sound like it's hopeless when it's really just a sign of a bad player if they can't time things like this. Did you pass your geometry class? Your Physics class? Can you understand, direction, motion, and time? I hope so. And regen mid pull shouldn't be an issue either. Not if you are smart with how you pull. Learn your skills, learn their limits, their reach, the amount of animation time before the effect actually triggers. I'm not advocating that all tanks should pull with regen on and never click off a HOT. I am pointing out that is can be done, and to complain about it is just plain and simply a sign that you don't have the skill as a player to pull it off.

It's even more entertaining to think that someone who hasn't even performed through to level 50 on both tanks is trying to school me on how to tank. I bet you wouldn't know which skill to have combo readied on the second phase adds of T13 as a Warrior off tank. Skull Sunder or Butcher's Block? It's Skull Sunder actually, because the animation time on Buthcer's Block is longer, causing the registration of agro to take longer, and causing the mob to wonder away at first and making getting off your Inner Beast before the first Death Sentence impossible. It's little things like this that makes the difference between good tanks, and the great. Know your skills. Watch them, learn the timing and their reach. Flash for instance doesn't instantly register agro. No, it's actually approximately one second after the press of the button that the animation finishes, and the skill's reach and which mobs were within that reach registers. Just because you flashed when the mob was right next to you, doesn't mean the skill is going to hit it. No, it's one second after you initiated the flash that the animation finishes, and the skill's reach and effect registers. Overpower is different. Overpower is almost instantaneous. The animation delay is almost non-existent thanks to the update to the skill many many months ago. The animation lag use to be horrible, almost an entire two seconds. Now, it's about less than half a second. With a 8 yalm reach and a cone that spans approximately 170 degrees in front of you, to miss anything is like shooting a rocket launcher and some how missing the barn less than a foot in front of you.

Whether it's easier to drop the buff or not, obviously isn't an issue, because common sense (and a later part of my post) already agreed that dropping them before the pull is better. But if the healer regens during the pull, then you just adjust. Don't act like the job is so difficult. Mobs almost always cluster together in the dungeons. Instead of Shield Lobbing or Tomahawking from a distance, use Flash or Overpower closer, timed so that you actually catch them all with one. Oh forbid you should have to use a little mental work to play this game.

A healer's job is already difficult enough with having to baby sit the dps, and making it easier on them in anyway is your job as the tank. Cooldown rotations, mob management, aoe avoidance are all crucial. If they feel they need to start your healing earlier to handle that initial spike of incoming damage when the pull ends, then take it, because there is no job more difficult in this game than the healer's. Anyone who attests differently is highly mistaken. As someone who heals as a secondary role, my helm goes off to healers, and my commendation is always theirs.

Adding this...

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

Also wars can pull this off too with goad or a bard playing tp song before pull starts.

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Warriors have access to Flash too. They have more AOE enmity skills available to them than just Overpower. Flash has very little use for a warrior beyond AOE enmity filler for when they run out of TP. Warrior still shouldn't run out of TP. Flash is one of the best skills to use on a gather, since it have more reach in the direction you are pulling than Overpower. Where Overpower is 8 Yalms in a cone in front of you, Flash is 5 yalms radius all around you, meaning even mobs that get behind you or are out of the cone of Overpower on your side when pulling are more likely to be hit with Flash. It is particularly easy to use Flash on the gathering of multiple mobs, saving your TP for when you have them ALL in front of you to use cooldowns in conjunction with Overpower and Steel Cyclone (Bloodbath, Berzerk, Unchained). There is very little use for Flash beyond the initial gather when it comes to warriors. It can not be spammed with the frequency of a Paladin, it lacks the blind that makes the set up of camp easier by making things miss you. So it really just boils down to a GCD filler for Warriors. It's perfect for using on the pull since it will drain your MP, not that you use it for anything else, it gives you more time to recover TP from the last pull, reducing the need for you to be goaded or for a TP song. There isn't a bard I know that doesn't question me when I tell them not to play it for me on warrior, or a ninja that doesn't do the same when I tell them to give their goad to another melee or a bard. It's because the balancing act is easy enough. I almost never finish a mob fight out of TP, and I'm almost always back and full when I set up camp at the end of the next pull. Between generating 5 wrath stacks from the last pull, and Infuriate usually available for pretty much every pull as well as the Wrath stack available on Berzerk and Vengence, the necessity for TP is low, and Steel Cyclone is particularly strong healing under Berzerk and Bloodbath.

I don't really understand the problem.

1) Tank pulls mobs.
2) Tank groups mobs.
3) Tank establishes enmity.
4) Group does things.
5) Profit.

How hard is it to just to tag along while things are being grouped up? Is the urge to attack a monster while running or cap off the tank on the move really so bad you're willing to wipe your group in order to do it? You guys are over complicating things.

Tanks who don't generate enmity on the run aren't bad, though they may be doing other things wrong. Healers who heal while grouping mobs are bad, but they may be doing other things right.

I'm sprinting constantly as a healer whenever I see a large pull happening (what else would I use TP for?). Whether the tank decides to sprint or not, I can keep up. If the tank doesn't tag every mob and doesn't pull with efficiency, I'm forced to keep a hair trigger on Benediction and can only hope that the tank's train falls in line before I need to pop it so my face doesn't get chewed off. By tagging every mob, I'm able to hard cast Stoneskin (sorry OP, I'd never Swiftcast it XD), then keep up with sprint, regen as soon as the tank is in position, Swiftcast > Holy, and I still have Benediction to keep up DPS and recover from emergencies, and if the tank starts using CD's properly, I won't even need to heal for several GCD's thanks to stuns. It's the difference between catching up and not falling behind in the first place.

Edit: I usually don't find the need to be Stoneskinning mid-pull, but certain pulls require a bit more affection on the tank. Pulls with good distance between groups, where a faltering tank can take a lot of damage, multiple casters that can hit the tank before they get out of range, or when a tank decides to pull wall to wall, picking up 4+ total groups. In a majority of other scenarios, as long as the tank at least keeps moving, a mid-pull heal is unnecessary regardless of whether the tank tags everything. I see the extra effort similar to the extra effort I put in DPS'ing while healing. You don't have to do it, but it sure helps things go on their merry way

Last few posts are wordy but that doesn't make them wrong.

The pro face pull groups ENTIRE argument is that tanks that generate threat herp derp around and take tons of damage and/or mobs are just impossible to pull because of their positions to not take excessive damage gathering them.

Tanks have come in and said that it can be done without taking damage and those that can't are just doing a bad job.

Do you see the problem here? Pro face pullers say it can't be done without tons of damage, yet tank after tank drops in to say it can be done, they have done it, others have done it, in every dungeon at every level cap all day every day.

You can pull mobs with threat and not take excessive damage. It's been done. There are videos. There are eye witness accounts. There is the word of tanks like myself that he been doing it since AK was serious bizness up through t13 clearing.

It's like walking outside and saying the sun is gone when it's sitting up there giving you sunburn. This isn't an opinion. It's a fact that pulling with aggro can be done by many, many tanks. If you cant, or your buddy tank can't threat without death then they are just lazy or bad. It can, has and will continue to be done weather you believe it or not.

No, tank after tank comes in and says they get agro on every mob so that the healer CAN heal them mid pull, while those of us who have stoneskin still up as the mobs come together allow the healers more mp regen and have more of a buffer before heals are needed. Lobbing the close one while cutting the corner and sprinting, you have to stop to let the mobs catch up in order to lob another, or you can get to the next pack and do the same.

Like I said with pug df groups I tag everything, but when I play with a healer/dps I know, and who know how to play properly all that agroing everything does is take more time and make the pull more dangerous.

You do it your way, I'll do it mine, both work. From an absolute crapton of trial and error and working with really good healers/dps I know that my way works damn well. Apparently your way works for you so keep it up and I'll keep shaving time off my runs.

To ceodore, I know you played both tanks, I know how to use lodestone, but the stupidity of your argument makes me think you aren't all that good at them. You bring up lodestones, look at my toon on leviathan then, before I took a break from game I had t5 on farm status (cleared it November 2013), made a new toon (the cactaur one) sometime last year and played for a bit but didn't get too serious about it. Coming back for expansion now. I played when shield oath gave half the threat it gives now and rarely lost agro, was running sub 9 min wp normal before you even started the game. You go put together a group of people in half i90 half darklight and pull that off, then come talk to me about how to speed run something.

Edit: I'm not saying craptons of damage, I'm saying enough to need heals before your done the pull. Any heals at that point are always risky because even if you tag everything it's still minimal agro you have.

A good healer will react to either scenario, they will both get you to the same place. The problem is when the tank decides to face pull and does it poorly. If they make it to their stopping point with Stoneskin intact, or at least with high HP, then great, proceed as normal. But all too often I encounter face pullers that lollygag about, take too much damage, reach their stopping point and pop FoF > Bloodbath or some other form of incompetent mitigation when your HP is less than 30% and about to drop hard when the rest of the mobs catch up. Healers get stuck in the middle, unable to heal because no enmity has been established, and needing to heal because the tank is going to die. A good tank will pull fast, or pull them all. Bad tanks do neither.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

To ceodore, I know you played both tanks, I know how to use lodestone, but the stupidity of your argument makes me think you aren't all that good at them. You bring up lodestones, look at my toon on leviathan then, before I took a break from game I had t5 on farm status (cleared it November 2013), made a new toon (the cactaur one) sometime last year and played for a bit but didn't get too serious about it. Coming back for expansion now. I played when shield oath gave half the threat it gives now and rarely lost agro, was running sub 9 min wp normal before you even started the game. You go put together a group of people in half i90 half darklight and pull that off, then come talk to me about how to speed run something.

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That's a cute story. I can't assume either way that it's true or not. All I can do is go off the data from the forums and the lodestone, and according to your forum profile, you only have one character in the entire game, Shaggy Grant in Cactuar, who only has two level 50 classes (3 level 50 jobs is assumed based on Arcanist having both Scholar and Summoner). You also assume that I haven't played for a long time. I also started back in 2013, back when "Shield Oath gave half the threat is gives now". I also have every single class to 50. Even assuming that the other Shaggy Grant is you (not exactly an original name, but who am I to judge?) you still find it in yourself to try to school me on how to play when you haven't even played all the classes in the game, not even by half. I've been speed running since before, during and after your break, kid. I've been teaching tanks the ins and outs of this role before, during, and after your break, and turned out tanks that have cleared T13 with me. T5 is and was a joke, even back then. Go clear T9, and maybe you'll get my respect, but I doubt it if you continue to face pull instead of establishing agro on the pull.

There are more things than just healing that scholars and white mages do. Eye for and Eye and Virus are both cross class capable for white mages, and Eye is one of the favorites among healers to put on tanks before, during, or even after pulls. You also forget (which is surprising, considering you probably have the job) that scholars have a fairy, which is liable to cast a heal on you during your pull. Sure, a good scholar would spam a Guard/Steady macro to keep the fairy from casting during the pull, but some things like a stray Embrace are liable to get through at one point or another. But, because you've been face pulling, the fairy is going to get ganked, making the scholar have to resummons and likely lose their swiftcast all because you can't establish agro on the pull. You make it sound like some out of the way difficult job to do this without taking excessive damage, despite countless tanks saying it's all too easy. You're just too lazy. Even as a healer, I've run with countless tanks in the DF that knew how to establish enmity on a pull. There was no going out of the way, or excessive damage. Most of them don't even eat through my Stoneskin and Adloquium. And if they get through my Adlo, it's never through my stoneskin. And even then, when they stop, I still have enough time to throw out my scholar dots, bane, and switch out of Cleric stance before they need healing. If you can't do this as a tank, then get better. The simple fact, what you are defending is a sign of a bad tank. The agro established by tomahawk or shield lob, yeah, not massive, but still enough to handle a few heals. But Flash and Overpower are much higher than your ranged skills. You just solidified my point honestly. Flash and Overpower are better for a pull than your ranged attacks, and if used properly, by an actually skilled tank, will establish enmity on all the mobs in a group instead of a little agro on one mob.

Edit: Your little break has obviously just established that you lack experience in your role, especially compared to someone who has been playing non-stop. As you admit to not being serious, and even say you're coming back for expansion, when you stopped playing for a bit sometime last year. You've gone about half a year not playing, where I've been going at this non-stop, approximately 8-12 hours a day since 2013. I have the luxury of playing from home and work, and most of my time is spent running dungeons, trials, and raids. Every hard mode dungeon that has been released, I've tackled first day of its release and developed speed running tactics first day of their release. There isn't a dungeon in this game that I couldn't tell you exactly how many mobs are in it, what kind of mobs are in it, as well as the skills they use: Ranged, telegraphed, off global, AOE, silencable, or stunable. Oh, and good job adding your other character, I suggest you do that from the start.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

Apparently your way works for you so keep it up and I'll keep shaving time off my runs.

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This brings up another question I have. How much time are you really saving if the healer always has to rebuff before your next big pull? Adlo is about a 2-2.5 second cast time, stoneskin is about 2.5-3 seconds (depending on spell speed) and most scholars like to use both stoneskin and adloquium, so that's almost a 5 second wait to make sure both shields are at their max potential before a pull. Does it really take 5 seconds to adjust your running path just a fraction and pick up multiple mobs with one AOE skill? There isn't a pull in this game that requires far, out of the way running on a pull. These dungeons are extremely linear. You act as though you're crossing some great distance to use an aoe, when in fact, you're running right through the entire group on any dungeon pull. I'd like you to give an example of some great distance pull you have to do that you couldn't just run right through the center of the group and still travel practically the same distance you did. WP sure doesn't have this, including the HM version. Amdapor Township doesn't have this problem either. Copperbell Mines HM, no, Sastasha HM, no, KoL, no, AK HM, definitely not, AK normal has the gargoyles, but they are far and few between, and easily dealt with by using shield lob or tomahawk while not changing your path. Pharos doesn't have this issue, Haukke Manor HM doesn't, Halatali HM doesn't, neither does Brayflox HM, Hullbreaker, Stone Vigil HM, Tam Tara HM, Snowcloak, Sunken Temple HM. There isn't a single level 50 dungeon where pulling using mostly flash and overpower requires some drastic change of path or direction. The reason for this is because mobs are 99% of the time always in your path, where they can't be avoided at all and the ones that aren't in your path, are generally able to be skipped in the case of a speed run. If you are able to face pull them, then you are able to pull them using Flash and Overpower.

Forum profile only shows the character you have set as your main, is that better? Sorry I just beat t9 on the weekend, have been leveling other classes since I came back to game as I slowly acquired tank gear as I get back into the game before expansion.

You on the other hand have achievements turned off so I can't see when you leveled or started your toon all I have to go on is the forum join date of feb 2014.

And if t5 is such a joke, 2 months for first fc to clear and they all started with gear 20 ilvls below max (just like 10-13), but 10-13 were beaten within a week of patch release. (I know twister was buggy at first but bluegarter did beat it before nerf so it was definitely doable).

There is no point in arguing with you though, like I've stated numerous times, when I'm in a df pug I always pull with tagging every mob, I only sprint/single lob pull with healers/dps that I know. This is only because we really like to try and beat our personal bests and constantly push ourselves on clear times, having tried both ways hundreds of times I KNOW that my way is faster.

And to the end of your earlier post, what I was saying in regards to goad/tp song is that getting them pre-pull on a war will allow you to sprint and be back near full tp by the time it's all grouped up. Not that you need it due to poor resource management but by utilizing the available skills you can speed up your speedruns.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

Forum profile only shows the character you have set as your main, is that better? Sorry I just beat t9 on the weekend, have been leveling other classes since I came back to game as I slowly acquired tank gear as I get back into the game before expansion.

You on the other hand have achievements turned off so I can't see when you leveled or started your toon all I have to go on is the forum join date of feb 2014.

And if t5 is such a joke, 2 months for first fc to clear and they all started with gear 20 ilvls below max (just like 10-13), but 10-13 were beaten within a week of patch release. (I know twister was buggy at first but bluegarter did beat it before nerf so it was definitely doable).

There is no point in arguing with you though, like I've stated numerous times, when I'm in a df pug I always pull with tagging every mob, I only sprint/single lob pull with healers/dps that I know. This is only because we really like to try and beat our personal bests and constantly push ourselves on clear times, having tried both ways hundreds of times I KNOW that my way is faster.

And to the end of your earlier post, what I was saying in regards to goad/tp song is that getting them pre-pull on a war will allow you to sprint and be back near full tp by the time it's all grouped up. Not that you need it due to poor resource management but by utilizing the available skills you can speed up your speedruns.

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Actually, your profile on the forums shows all characters you have linked to it. I can see both of your characters now, not just the one you set as your main. You can verify my T13 clear though based on my chest piece. It's Dreadwyrm, when I'm in DPS mode for its determination, which only comes from T13.

Goad can be used to boost AOE dps more by being placed on other classes that use TP as a resource, like Bard or any melee dps. More AOE DPS on a big pull means a faster run, even if you only go at base run speed when pulling. As a Paladin, you shouldn't ever be pulling at base running speed anyways, since your main resource is actually MP for large groups of mobs. Either way, if you use AOE agro skills on the pull, your dps can also actually start dpsing earlier. Bard's main spam AOE is instant cast and can be used on the move, so more reason for them not to use TP song unless a dps needs it, because more damage, and if you can pick things up with AOE enmity skills, they can start damaging earlier, making the run faster. Further, Bards don't exactly have massive damage when it comes to their AOEs, so a flash or an overpower should be plenty to keep them from taking enmity before you stop.

Ah yes I see that now don't know how my original main wasn't linked as it was the only one linked before I came back and made the cactuar toon.

The problem with a bard starting early is they should straight shot before doing anything, if a mob only has 1 flash on it that straight shot+auto attack+ the next gcd being an aoe means they have probably pulled agro (unless horribly undergeared).

I'm going to assume at this point you are probably a pretty good tank, we just have differing opinions on this so agree to disagree I guess.

For examples of pulls that I'm talking about, have you never had the first pull after boss 1 of wp be something like this?

x=mob
y=standard

------wall------
|x................x
|
|........y
|
|..................x

This type of thing seems to happen to me every run, with the caster almost always being in the top left position, if I'm sprinting I can usually lob top left and then 1 more before I'm out of range, but that takes me through the 2 on the right getting hit by both, if I cut corner I only get hit by bottom right and am usually outside lob distance by the time gcd is done for either of the others.

Edit: a good sch will have SS hit just as or before last mob dies and adlo as I start to run, a good whm will have SS halfway through cast as last mob dies. No adjustments needed.

Assuming Y is you, let's do a small scenario. Either you're traveling straight through these guys from left to right, or you're rounding a corner, from bottom to right maybe. You have provoke for use off the GCD to keep from having to trigger your GCD, and you have a longer range on provoke than Tomahawk or Shield Lob. Here's a demonstration assuming you don't use provoke.

Left from right


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..........................x1...... x2
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provoke x1 first, from max distance of shield lob. x1-3 are linked targets. Even considering x2 and 3 are further apart than 10 yalms, buy the time they reach you, they will be close enough together to be effected by flash. Further, x1 will also be hit by the flash, because his direction of travel is to follow when pass him since you've used shield lob.

Around a corner

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Shield lob x1 at max range, and by the time you are rounding the corner, GCD should be done, and you should be able to flash the other two. They will come to you unless one is ranged. In the case of a ranged, use other skills that are not on GCD for whichever mobs comes into melee. Circle of Scorn, Spirits Within, or Brutal Swing to establish some kind of hit on the melee and free up your GCD for your ranged skill. In this scenario, your first shield lob or tomahawk should go off at max range, well before you should be reaching the corner to turn. Players only travel about 5 yalms per second unless they are sprinting, and in sprint, it doesn't get over 7.5. So your GCD should be up for either flash, overpower, or another shield lob before then. Make use of your off global skills when necessary in these situations.

WP after boss 1

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x2 is caster? Easy enough. x1 should be your first shield lob target. x2 your second shield lob target, and x3 and x1 hit with Circle of Scorn as you round the corner. Or, if on warrior, hit x3 with brutal swing. Sure, it stuns, but the mob will catch up, and your party will be continuing anyways to catch up to you. They should ignore it. If nothing else, a dps might jump on it, and I've already stated that if a dps take agro during your pull, then they are at fault. Further, direct damage on a mob is worth a lot more than healing, and this pull you mention is the first pull after the first boss in WP HM, meaning you still have the second pull up the stairs to grab too. The stunned mob will be out of stun by the time you reach the top of the stairs, and waiting for you when you get back to the corner half way up the stairs. x3, who we stunned in this scenario is also a melee mob, meaning he had to come into range of your AOE enmity skills to reach you. Further, all range mobs in this game do not sit further away than 15 yalms when they attack. This is seen in ever ranged attacker in the game. It's a little built in catch that the devs designed for situations with more than one ranged attacker, so you can shield lob or tomahawk them if they are attacking you. I specifically say if they are attacking you because if they are attacking someone else, their range minimum is based on how far they are from that person, not you, so can be outside of your range. But EVERY mob in the game that is range, has a maximum distance of 15 yalms on their range attacks for this specific reason. So if you range the melee closest, that ranged caster is going to come to you close enough for your tomahawk or shield lob, guaranteed. In fact, if you pull x1 from the max distance on shield lob, the caster should come close enough that all you have to do is catch him with the very edge of a flash along with x3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

stuff

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Using provoke on target which does not have any initial enmity will do nothing, especially if you are only one on enmity list (unless healer is an idiot and puts hot on top of stoneskin before pull ...). Anyway congratulations, you have just wasted your only threat manipulation skill.
SW is melee skill, you must face target and it has quite long animation, which if interrupted will also interrupt skill. Using SW is almost impossible especially if you are sprinting. If you really use SW then you will eat at least 2 unnecessary hits from each mob you have on you.
CoS is too good skill to be used like that, I prefer to use it to establish threat once I stop and mobs are still scattered around, or if I have to keep threat on something ranged (lob + this oGCD).

Regarding those 3 situations you described I would solve them this way:
1) since mobs are close together I would pop sprint before the start of pull, start running, then in the moment I get proximity aggro from the first mob I would flash, that should hit all three mobs, give them blind and prevent them from hitting me, then I would continue to next pack

2) in this scenario I would again use sprint prepull, then run as close to corner as possible if I get proximity aggro I would lob one of them probably x3, if not I would hit x3 and continue running, this way I can avoid taking damage from two melee mobs and if theres ranged one, stoneskin with rampart will eat it just fine

3) in this case I would again use sprint, then when I get close to x1 I would flash it (in case of caster - lob) and then continue running to avoid taking damage from other mobs, rampart if they can hit me.

By doing this I am 100% sure that my stoneskin will be up when I get to the next pack. If I pull three packs by the time I get to the last pack ranged mobs usually break stoneskin, in that case I just pick spot so I can gather everything in one place including ranged and then use Hallowed Ground and spam flash. Healer in the meantime puts regen on / lets fairy heal, switches to cleric stance and holy/bane everything then after Hallowed Ground is done goes back to healing ...

Now lets take look at your way, by screwing around, going into melee range and trying to use oGCD skills you take 2-3 hits from each mob, assuming each mob hits you for 300, you take 2000+ damage which will break shields, then on the way to next pack you will probably take 1-2 hits from each mob, thats another 1000 damage, then again you are going play around with mobs thats another 2000+ damage from new pack and 2000+ damage from previous pack which was running behind you, at this point healer will probably have to heal you if he hasn't done so already, anyway thats already 5k damage into your HP which healer has to heal, but its not a problem since you have threat. Then you decide to keep going to last pack, thats 2000 damage while running with 2 pack behind you, nothing healer can't deal with right? So you reach last pack, use aoe threat skill, and if you are lucky you haven't lost threat to a healer who has healed 7k hp already and healer is probably raging at you anyway because that ranged mob from 1st or 2nd pack is on him for sure so he has to heal himself + a tank who is taking damage from other 9 mobs and guess what your provoke is on cd because you wasted it while pulling and now you cant get ranged mob back unless you manage to stack all ranged mobs with melee and since you wasted CoS while pulling you will start loosing threat on melee pack, because all your GCDs are wasted on lobbing that ranged mob, which is on the loose and you can't flash.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

Using provoke on target which does not have any initial enmity will do nothing, especially if you are only one on enmity list (unless healer is an idiot and puts hot on top of stoneskin before pull ...).

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Wrong. Using provoke on a target that has no enmity at all to anything will cause it to generate 1 enmity towards you, and initiate the rest of the group to also enmity towards you. This is why using Provoke in WP normal mode on the two tonberries by the door to the second boss will cause them to come around and up the stairs to you. It is also why in the same dungeon, after the second boss, you can use provoke on the first two tonberries to group them with the ghost mobs at the base of the stairs. So, congrats, you don't know your own skills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

Anyway congratulations, you have just wasted your only threat manipulation skill.

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It's a 40 second cooldown, and if you really require it to maintain agro on one mob, then you're probably bad enough to lose the rest of them on you as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

SW is melee skill, you must face target and it has quite long animation, which if interrupted will also interrupt skill. Using SW is almost impossible especially if you are sprinting. If you really use SW then you will eat at least 2 unnecessary hits from each mob you have on you.

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Yes, it has to be used when in melee, just like Brutal Swing. No, you don't have to face the target the whole time. You are very wrong about that. Turn on turn to target in your character settings. It will automatically face you towards your target for the split second required for the skill to register as being used. Holding down the Left mouse button as well as continuing to press the directional key you wish to travel in will keep your screen turned and you will continue to travel in the direction you want to go, despite the small split moment your character turned towards the mob. Brutal Swing AND Spirits Within can be used in this way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

CoS is too good skill to be used like that, I prefer to use it to establish threat once I stop and mobs are still scattered around, or if I have to keep threat on something ranged (lob + this oGCD).

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A skill is only as good as all the things it can be applied to. In such cases where you need an AOE enmity skill that is off global cooldown, Circle of Scorn can fulfill that role when it is necessary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

Regarding those 3 situations you described I would solve them this way:
1) since mobs are close together I would pop sprint before the start of pull, start running, then in the moment I get proximity aggro from the first mob I would flash, that should hit all three mobs, give them blind and prevent them from hitting me, then I would continue to next pack

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Which is exactly what I displayed. You can run through their center and use flash. You can even Shield Lob or Tomahawk the closest and still have your GCD refreshed before you reach the rest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

2) in this scenario I would again use sprint prepull, then run as close to corner as possible if I get proximity aggro I would lob one of them probably x3, if not I would hit x3 and continue running, this way I can avoid taking damage from two melee mobs and if theres ranged one, stoneskin with rampart will eat it just fine.

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And if you don't have a shield up? Or if the scholar's fairy hits you with a heal? What then? You just lost your proximity agro to a fairy and look like an idiot running around to pick up mobs you lost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

3) in this case I would again use sprint, then when I get close to x1 I would flash it (in case of caster - lob) and then continue running to avoid taking damage from other mobs, rampart if they can hit me.

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Again, lost agro to a fairy if the pet heals you mid pull. Further, in this scenario, the furthest mob is a caster. Flashing x1 means you are on global cooldown, so all you have now is Circle of Scorn, Spirits Within, or Brutal Swing available to you and you're now running away from the enemies already, having only established moderate agro on one. Shield Lob or Tomahawk x1, shield lob of tomahawk x2 when going around the corner, and catch x3 with any off GCD skill. Now you have agro on all three and you won't lose agro to a fairy's auto heal. You haven't entered any ranged mobs melee range at all, you've just established agro on enemies that come into your own melee range. Your path hasn't changed at all from what you explained.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

By doing this I am 100% sure that my stoneskin will be up when I get to the next pack. If I pull three packs by the time I get to the last pack ranged mobs usually break stoneskin, in that case I just pick spot so I can gather everything in one place including ranged and then use Hallowed Ground and spam flash. Healer in the meantime puts regen on / lets fairy heal, switches to cleric stance and holy/bane everything then after Hallowed Ground is done goes back to healing ...

Now lets take look at your way, by screwing around, going into melee range and trying to use oGCD skills you take 2-3 hits from each mob, assuming each mob hits you for 300, you take 2000+ damage which will break shields, then on the way to next pack you will probably take 1-2 hits from each mob, thats another 1000 damage, then again you are going play around with mobs thats another 2000+ damage from new pack and 2000+ damage from previous pack which was running behind you, at this point healer will probably have to heal you if he hasn't done so already, anyway thats already 5k damage into your HP which healer has to heal, but its not a problem since you have threat. Then you decide to keep going to last pack, thats 2000 damage while running with 2 pack behind you, nothing healer can't deal with right? So you reach last pack, use aoe threat skill, and if you are lucky you haven't lost threat to a healer who has healed 7k hp already and healer is probably raging at you anyway because that ranged mob from 1st or 2nd pack is on him for sure so he has to heal himself + a tank who is taking damage from other 9 mobs and guess what your provoke is on cd because you wasted it while pulling and now you cant get ranged mob back unless you manage to stack all ranged mobs with melee and since you wasted CoS while pulling you will start loosing threat on melee pack, because all your GCDs are wasted on lobbing that ranged mob, which is on the loose and you can't flash.

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Your last paragraph is so discombobulated, I can't even be sure what you're saying besides that you obviously don't understand what I have been saying. I haven't taken any alternate path that you have, and given your obvious lack of understanding when it comes to these skills you think you know, I can confirm you really don't understand. But that's okay, because you aren't one of my tank pupils, so I don't care if you suck. I only care that I can kick you if I get you as a tank as a healer, and it won't be unjust. You use Hallowed Ground on a simple trash pull? And at the start of it no less. If you're using that instead of smaller cooldowns when mobs are still catching up to you, you're wasting it. I don't have to use provoke to regain enmity either, because I never lose it in the first place. I haven't taken some long route to get to the end of my pull. I've cut all the same corners you have mentioned. I just know what will happen with the enemies I am pulling before I pull them. It isn't so hard to watch a field of battle and determine the best course of action on the fly. Enemy AI is predictable. Their movement speed as well as their direction is scripted to be exactly the same when in exactly the same situations. The only difference between you and me is that I know this script and I know where and what I can get away with when pulling. I do hope I get you, at least once, when you're on your black mage in your Demon gear from WoD and your fabulous 110 trinkets, because I can then show you how it's actually done the right way, when you so obviously do it the lazy way. Then again, can't be sure what I am suppose to expect from a member of an FC that is ranked 65 on its server last week with 16 members when the number 2 on the same server last week had only 5 people, lol. Can't see achievements either, so can't really say anything either way about how much you've "proven" yourself to be an established tank.

Eh 1 enmity = no enmity, any heal at this point will rip that mob off you, you have to establish enmity on it anyway. I run only WP hard in expert roulette, dont rememeber about WP normal since I have done it only once or twice. Anyway skill wasted.

I have the auto-face disabled because casting skills such as regen when not facing your target will stop your character movement, which kinda sucks if you are dodging stuff at that moment. And I am not gonna enable it just because of SW, blame SE.


1) ofc it is best way to pull them that way if they are so close together
2) 3), fairy never heals me, because during corner pulls I am out of line sight and if I dont have stone skin up I cast the weaker version myself or do a smaller pull, in 99% cases healers in expert roulette cast adlo / stoneskin.

I pop Hallowed Ground when my HP drops to 50% that way healer can dps and we dont have to worry about healing aggro for a moment. When HG is finished I use other cds as needed obviously and healer can decide how to heal further.

Besides when would you want to use Hallowed Ground if not in that case?, those 3 packs do twice more damage than any boss in that dungeon and those 3 packs before second boss are hardest pull there.

Tbh I have done WP hard maybe 40-50 times as tank, mostly with DF groups and never wiped on the trash as far as I can remember. On a healer however I remember few wipes due to tank loosing aggro on mobs out of position.

The fact that you haven't even bother to read last paragraph and that you are pulling out some stuff about my FC (when nobody is actually playing before expansion) and about BLM which I haven't really played for weeks says pretty much everything about you. I judge people based on arguments they make, and you are not worth of my attention.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Having no enmity on some of the enemies is fine as long as your healer isn't a spaz who heals you before you're done the pull. Stopping to hit everyone is either a huge TP sink (lobs) or will make you eat a lot of unnecessary hits and make you need heals before the pull is done, kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You can Thrill/Second Wind near the end of your pull to throw out a bit of aggro on everything you've pulled too, it's something that will ward off Regen aggro.

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No. Either learn how to do your job and pull correctly like other PLD's and WAR's can or find another job. It is not up to healers to stress because we can't regen or cure and save your ass (or the rest of the party) because you failed to pull correctly (and do your job) because all the mobs are not correctly aggro'ed, while you're down to 1-2k hitpoints.

If all mobs are not red, you're not doing your job pulling.

Yeah, I agree with tagging all mobs.

1. Not all healers react the same way. Especially in DF where even raid gear can be deceptive. I've had a raid geared healer who couldnt handle the last pull of sastasha HM (3 packs + loads of zombies)
2. Resources should never be an issue for both pld and war if you juggle them right and your aggro generation shouldn't even be in any danger.
3. Taking extra damage from 'stopping' to tag should never happen. Monsters chasing you are actually closer than what you see/think. Both classes have actions that does not use their main resource linked to aoe enmity generation to tag mobs past the first pull action and tagging mobs on the move should be 2nd nature.

Drives me crazy, why are you being lazy putting that pressure on the healer? It's like the tank just says "F-U Healer I'm going to be lazy", meanwhile Healers are hearing it when they stand there and don't DPS.

At the very least I can't be in Cleric Stance at the end of the pull since I have to stabilize the tank. And that may require multiple lustrate stacks depending on the health of the tank, which cuts my DPS even more.

People who don't actually tag proximity enemies or only grab one in a group are the bane of my healing in dungeon runs. This is probably why I get more warrior complications than Paladin ones.

Especially if they run ahead without SS or something to help deal with the burst they're going to receive when they finally stop running.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

Eh 1 enmity = no enmity, any heal at this point will rip that mob off you, you have to establish enmity on it anyway. I run only WP hard in expert roulette, dont rememeber about WP normal since I have done it only once or twice. Anyway skill wasted.

I have the auto-face disabled because casting skills such as regen when not facing your target will stop your character movement, which kinda sucks if you are dodging stuff at that moment. And I am not gonna enable it just because of SW, blame SE.


1) ofc it is best way to pull them that way if they are so close together
2) 3), fairy never heals me, because during corner pulls I am out of line sight and if I dont have stone skin up I cast the weaker version myself or do a smaller pull, in 99% cases healers in expert roulette cast adlo / stoneskin.

I pop Hallowed Ground when my HP drops to 50% that way healer can dps and we dont have to worry about healing aggro for a moment. When HG is finished I use other cds as needed obviously and healer can decide how to heal further.

Besides when would you want to use Hallowed Ground if not in that case?, those 3 packs do twice more damage than any boss in that dungeon and those 3 packs before second boss are hardest pull there.

Tbh I have done WP hard maybe 40-50 times as tank, mostly with DF groups and never wiped on the trash as far as I can remember. On a healer however I remember few wipes due to tank loosing aggro on mobs out of position.

The fact that you haven't even bother to read last paragraph and that you are pulling out some stuff about my FC (when nobody is actually playing before expansion) and about BLM which I haven't really played for weeks says pretty much everything about you. I judge people based on arguments they make, and you are not worth of my attention.

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1 Enmity = 1Enmity. It appears someone should go back to pre-k and learn math again. And as I said about Circle of Scorn, a skill is as useful as all the applications it can be applied to. In this case, I am applying Provoke's range to my use. It has a range 10 yalms further than Tomahawk and Shield Lob. The reason this is useful is because sometimes, as in the case of these mobs in WP HM where the caster may be further out, it causes the enemies to clump closer together. The skill is off the GCD, meaning a flash can be utilized right away too after its use. So, provoke the closest mobs, and the rest of them will attempt to congregate to one focal point, you. This allows you to go through the now more tightly packed mobs and flash or provoke.

There are three reasons I bring up your FC and their ranking. 1. Can't see your achievements, but can see what your FC has achieved, allowing for a general idea of how their members rank among the player base. 2. The size of the FC can be very telling of a player, since a larger FC has more members to talk to and discuss ideas on game play. In my case, the FC I run has 249 members, allowing for me to use a couple dozen as sounding boards for ideas when it comes to tanking and tanking tactics. New ideas get brought up by new tanks, and we discuss them, their pros and cons, and their applications. This allows for more thorough discussions with more insight from many different tanks' experiences. 3. I bring up their ranking last week when compared to another FC with only 5 members on the same server because it's an indication of poor leadership when an FC with so many more people falls below an FC with so few. Bad leadership means faulty ideas don't get squashed before they become a bad set in habit. There is more desire to let players play how they want, instead of playing their class the best way possible, since one player makes up so much of the FC already, where one player to my FC is a small percentage of my company. They are valued, yes, but I am not afraid to correct them when they are wrong.

Now, about Hallowed Ground. What you originally said is that you pop HG when you reach the end of your pull, not that you pop it when you get to about 50% HP. THIS is better, but not just for the reasons you list. Hallowed Ground is much like stoneskin, in that using it at full HP results in a loss of additional possible mitigation. I am not saying that Stoneskin shouldn't be used at full HP, no. I am saying that Hallowed shouldn't. The reasoning here is that a white mage is likely to use Regen, and a scholar's fairy is going to heal you when you start getting low on hp. If you wait until you reach about 50% hp, then use Hallowed, the regen or the fairy will recover your hp while you are immune to damage still. This results in Hallowed Ground having more innate effectiveness in this way. Do not, however, use it when you get to the end of your pull, since this can also result in a loss of effectiveness. Using it at about 50% hp will mean you should have all the enemies in your pull together now, so that they all hit you now. This is especially important if you're using sprint.

Also, I attempted to read your last paragraph, but about a few sentences in, I quickly realized you didn't understand what it was I was saying. You believe that I use some long drawn out route to pull, when in fact, using the same exact paths to pull that you do, I can still generate significant enmity on all the targets and still take the same amount of damage as you do.

Also, not using the face to target on a tank is significant, as you can't use things like tomahawk, shield lob, and provoke without facing the target either. This is especially important in places like T13 in phase 3, where the off tank is responsible for picking up the adds and moving them to the main tank for AOEs. Your statements simply prove what everyone is saying, you're lazy.

LoS pulling is fine...as long it is done correctly.

A large pull for me begins with me popping sprint. i need to reach max distance and pull the maximum amount of trash i can handle as possible without taking a lot of damage. once that is done, i wait for the trash to bundle up (if a mage/turret is chasing me, around them.) then i pop defensive cool-downs and start building hate. this way every trash mob has the same amount of enmity on them, there aren't any straggler mobs that have less hate than the others, allows dps to burn without worrying about pulling hate without gimping my own ability to generate threat in the process.

the only time this gets complicated is when I'm with a scholar. fairies are normally on obey, but sometimes cast a buff anyway. normally no one does any action besides movement until I've flashed once, or the mobs are positioned in a way that flash will go off before they attack another player.

Hollowed ground is reserved for tricky pulls (like the last one on wp hm) or when I'm pulling an entire large room (the three pulls before the second boss, LB is also used unless everyone is stupidly overgeared).

I don't see what having uneven enmity on enemies has anything to do with keeping agro or losing it. If you face pull, you won't have much enmity at all anyways to begin with. And when you reach the end of your pull, whether you face pulled or generated enmity on everything during the pull, you will still be using your aoe enmity skills on anything above three mobs. Your point makes no difference, since with both ways, you should be out doing the agro of the healer and dps anyways. The only difference is that by generating threat on every mob during the pull, you actually start with more threat already on them than if you face pulled. Rethink your idea here, and forget about what is easy for you, since that will just result in marking you as lazy if you're not generating agro when you have the opportunity and ability to do so.

If you are running directly through the middle of a group because it is the only way to go, then by all means flash them, I'm not advocating just straight face pulling them. What I'm saying is that if me cutting a corner and lobbing 1 while allowing the others just to follow along is the difference between the healer needing to just toss a regen vs having to stabilize me before dpsing then why would I take those extra hits.

The uneven enmity thing probably stems from back when shield oath wasn't as good, if you flashed each pack you just wasted 600 mp on only 3 mobs at a time and that's 2 less flashes on each mob (assuming 3 packs). Was a lot more common for blms to easily pull agro at that point versus now where I can flash until around 40% mp and have no problem holding agro.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

Also, I attempted to read your last paragraph, but about a few sentences in, I quickly realized you didn't understand what it was I was saying. You believe that I use some long drawn out route to pull, when in fact, using the same exact paths to pull that you do, I can still generate significant enmity on all the targets and still take the same amount of damage as you do.

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You don't take the same amount of damage though, if your close enough to flash because you pulled early and pulled them into a pack then they are close enough to smack you, that's 2 mobs hitting you that otherwise wouldn't have. I get where your coming from about the agro thing to help out healers so that they can mid run stoneskin you, I really do and like I said, any pug I will do the same but if you can't understand that 3>1 then there is really no point in arguing with you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

If you are running directly through the middle of a group because it is the only way to go, then by all means flash them, I'm not advocating just straight face pulling them. What I'm saying is that if me cutting a corner and lobbing 1 while allowing the others just to follow along is the difference between the healer needing to just toss a regen vs having to stabilize me before dpsing then why would I take those extra hits.

The uneven enmity thing probably stems from back when shield oath wasn't as good, if you flashed each pack you just wasted 600 mp on only 3 mobs at a time and that's 2 less flashes on each mob (assuming 3 packs). Was a lot more common for blms to easily pull agro at that point versus now where I can flash until around 40% mp and have no problem holding agro.



You don't take the same amount of damage though, if your close enough to flash because you pulled early and pulled them into a pack then they are close enough to smack you, that's 2 mobs hitting you that otherwise wouldn't have. I get where your coming from about the agro thing to help out healers so that they can mid run stoneskin you, I really do and like I said, any pug I will do the same but if you can't understand that 3>1 then there is really no point in arguing with you.

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If you shield lob or tomahawk the first target from 15 yalms away, by the time you make it through them, all three are going to be on you like stink on shit anyways. The only way you might not get hit by all three at the very least once is if you do nothing but face pull on every pack and only flash those that are already close together. You've already stated yourself that you use shield lob and tomahawk to pull a group, by doing anything at all, they are going to close ranks and all hit you at the least once. The ONLY way you might get one or two less hits is if you do absolutely nothing on the pull. In which case, you're fucked side ways if you need any healing at all quickly. Because you've just been sprinting through and not generating agro on anything, you will have stragglers still catching up as you're taking damage from the mobs at the end of your pull. If the healer so much as farts in your direction, you'll lose those stragglers. You also forget that some mobs in this game, especially in dungeons, actually move faster than your sprint. Tonberries in WP normal is one, the ixali in WP HM is another. These enemies will be damaging you even while you're sprinting.

Since it's been brought up several times, let's talk about the pull in WP HM with the three groups. This includes 3 ixali in the first group two melee and one range, 1 melee and 2 rhinos in the second, an independent ranged, and then three melee in the third group. The 3 ixali will be banging on you the whole way, including the melee attackers, since their normal speed is actually faster than your sprint. Further, your sprint doesn't last the whole way. 20 seconds isn't nearly enough to cover the whole distance from door to door. Then, you have the second ranged attacker who you pick up right before the other three melees. If you think any shield is going to last through all this, you're a bigger idiot than I already think you are. These mobs are eating your shield the whole way, and they will get through it, despite your sprinting. You wouldn't be the first tank that I've watched think that both my scholar shields were going to last the whole way only to realize my fairy is already casting her heal on them by the time they reach the second group. And you wouldn't be the first one I saw to think they could proximity agro the enemies and out run them, only to get beat on the whole way like an idiot. They aren't slow enemies at all.

Seriously pointless to argue with you. You are advocating using provoke to start the pull from max distance so you can flash afterwards, well guess what, that first mob just closed the distance, hit you once right there, hit you again as you reach the other 2 because they were stretched out, then the other 2 hit you. In the case of the big wp pull, that caster didn't even close the distance but has already got 2 stones off as you reach his range and your 3rd GCD.

It's no wonder at this point that you need heals and I don't mid pull.

I also play both sch and whm and have run this numerous times on both, my biggest pet peeve is tanks who I need to heal mid pull because they don't know how to not get hit. And any healer that isn't absolutely retarded will run through the tank to make sure any stragglers that might agro them as they top the tank off during agro establishment run directly into the flash/op aoe.

This whole issue isn't so black and white. There aren't (or really shouldn't be) two camps, camp A: aggro ALL the things and camp B: face pull ALL the things, because neither one leads to the best pulls in every scenario. The more fluid camp is camp C, the "tanks don't have to aggro every single thing at every point in the pull" camp. It isn't suggesting to face pull the whole dungeon, nor to even do every single pull without grabbing things. I'm in camp C, and some pulls, usually particularly short ones or particularly long ones, I'll grab everything (up to a point) because it makes sense, and sometimes you can do more with your TP and attacks without compromising your survivability. Also the fact that the 50 potency hit from Vengeance's counter right before you get to your pull destination outdoes a Cure II's aggro in a large group certainly doesn't hurt - not something to be relied on by any means but it's nice.

The fact is not grabbing some things in favor of putting up Maim shortly before the pull is fine for survival, especially if that makes you get 2 Infuriates for free basically by Infuriating pre-pull and keeping your stacks mid-pull. Only grabbing one mob out of 3 while you're running past them, when you're 10s away from the pull stop point and your SS isn't even broken yet and you are guaranteed to hit them within the pack with our Flash/CoS before you require a heal, that's fine. Face pulling a lot of enemies because you know you're going to Sprint and HG at the pull point, with the WHM guaranteed to only start with a Holy and no possibility of pulling early because they know about it, that's great. Having done a dungeon 30 times before with the same healer and you know exactly how long you'll last and they know what to do, do whatever works best and fastest for you guys.

Trying to do the entire first part of AK with face pulls, that's not fine. Skipping completely free aggro you could get by Flashing through a pack you have to go through in favor of nothing but being lazy, that's not fine (and I don't think anyone arguing against full aggro advocates this). Trying to do pulls with excessive enemies proximity pulled who could kill the healer without being on the same page as the healer or at the skill/gear levels required, also not fine. I will say as a PSA advocating full aggro is a good enough sentiment, especially for the people who actually need to hear it because they don't know WHY you'd put aggro on everything, but much like a lot of generalizations and recommendations in life, it doesn't apply to everyone.

Just keep an open mind and most importantly, stay versatile.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

This whole issue isn't so black and white. There aren't (or really shouldn't) be two camps, camp A: aggro ALL the things and camp B: face pull ALL the things, because neither one leads to the best pulls. The more fluid camp is camp C, the "don't have to aggro every single thing at every point in the pull" camp. It isn't suggesting to face pull the whole dungeon, nor to even do every single pull without grabbing things. I'm in camp C, and some pulls, usually particularly short ones or particularly long ones, I'll grab everything (up to a point) because it makes sense, and sometimes you can do more with your TP and attacks without compromising your survivability. Also the fact that the 50 potency hit from Vengeance's counter right before you get to your pull destination outdoes a Cure II's aggro in a large group certainly doesn't hurt - not something to be relied on by any means but it's nice.

The fact is not grabbing some things in favor of putting up Maim shortly before the pull is fine for survival, especially if that makes you get 2 Infuriates for free basically by keeping your stacks. Only grabbing one mob out of 3 while you're running past them when you're 10s away from the pull stop point and your SS isn't even broken yet and you are guaranteed to hit them within the pack with our Flash/CoS before you require a heal, that's fine. Face pulling a lot of enemies because you know you're going to Sprint and HG at the pull point, with the WHM guaranteed to only start with a Holy and no possibility of pulling early because they know about it, that's great. Having done a dungeon 30 times before with the same healer and you know exactly how long you'll last and they know what to do, do whatever works best and fastest for you guys.

Trying to do the entire first part of AK with face pulls, that's not fine. Skipping completely free aggro you could get by Flashing through a pack you have to go through in favor of nothing but being lazy, that's not fine (and I don't think anyone arguing against full aggro advocates this). Trying to do pulls with excessive enemies proximity pulled who could kill the healer without being on the same page as the healer or at the skill/gear levels required, also not fine. I will say as a PSA advocating full aggro is a good enough sentiment, especially for the people who actually need to hear it because they don't know WHY you'd put aggro on everything, but much like a lot of generalizations and recommendations in life, it doesn't apply to everyone.

Just keep an open mind and most importantly, stay versatile.

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Smartest person here.

If you have to go out of your way to get enmity on an entire group, don't do it. And I'm not going to pretend to advocate for this, and that's not what I ever said. But if it's possible to manipulate your enemies with one skill to move your enemies and group them better, then able to run through them like normal with a flash or overpower, then there is no reason not to.

Even when my tanks are geared poorly as long as no one does anything before end of pull i can easily keep tank alive. I swear some people are too focused on playing it safe or are worried about tank's health dropping below 50% for a second or two.

Tank pulls>no does anything besides run while tanks pulls>we stop>tank uses CD's>Divine seal>med 2>regen>SS(Optional)>holy bomb+party aoe attacks>mobs dead>Next pull.

Divine seal will be back up before end of next pull, pop shroud alot. Dungeon done.

Edit:Sometimes i dont even exit cleric stance after i start holy bombing cause i use bene when tanks health is at 20%.
very rarely will i open up with Cure 2 when i pop divine seal. More often than not my runs ...even with the shitiest tanks go smoothly cause as a whm i use all my abilities the fullest advantage and i dps as much as possible while mitigating dmg with SS/Stun from holy/ and regen/med 2. Tanks just need to get them all in one spot and nothing more you dont really have to worry about playing it safe by flashing and shield throwing every mob while running...thats for people who want to spend a lot of extra effort just because they think something MIGHT go wrong. Fear based gaming that does make a dungeon run more efficient. Just do what works...if everyone dies cause they don't know how to speed run....THEN change tactics.

You don't need to sprint to avoid damage in most current dungeons at all. So many of the mobs stop to do conal/360 AoEs or cast spells as you run that simply running through the pack and using Flash/Overpower keeps you from taking any noticeable damage (and lets the healer do little things like prep Eye for an Eye as you come around to the last group). Mind you, there are a lot of tanks out there that can't seem to use abilities on the move, which means they do take a lot more damage if they're focusing on aggro like that.

Aggro is just generally safer since you really don't know what your healer is like (assuming a full DF group). Ditto for DPS that for some reason love to randomly start their full single-target combo on a mob when you're doing a long pull. I'll never understand that one.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

You don't need to sprint to avoid damage in most current dungeons at all. So many of the mobs stop to do conal/360 AoEs or cast spells as you run that simply running through the pack and using Flash/Overpower keeps you from taking any noticeable damage (and lets the healer do little things like prep Eye for an Eye as you come around to the last group). Mind you, there are a lot of tanks out there that can't seem to use abilities on the move, which means they do take a lot more damage if they're focusing on aggro like that.

Aggro is just generally safer since you really don't know what your healer is like (assuming a full DF group). Ditto for DPS that for some reason love to randomly start their full single-target combo on a mob when you're doing a long pull. I'll never understand that one.

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I see this really rarely, but it's usually just a Monk trying to get his Greased Lightning stacks up before the pull ends.

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Originally Posted by spelley

I see this really rarely, but it's usually just a Monk trying to get his Greased Lightning stacks up before the pull ends.

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I saw it a lot while I was doing my recent Zodiac runs for Excalibur. Oddly it was very rarely Monks (which isn't as big of an issue since they generate a low amount of initial damage) and more often Dragoons and Bards. I don't know if they just weren't familiar with the common pulls for the dungeons or if they were just trigger happy.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I saw it a lot while I was doing my recent Zodiac runs for Excalibur. Oddly it was very rarely Monks (which isn't as big of an issue since they generate a low amount of initial damage) and more often Dragoons and Bards. I don't know if they just weren't familiar with the common pulls for the dungeons or if they were just trigger happy.

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I'd guess over eager, trying to put in just a bit of damage to "help." I know I've been tempted before. Usually end up throwing a Leg Sweep on my DRG if a mob does a cone/aoe that we will be hit by if we keep running by but that's the extent of it (and DRG at least has some armour so they can easily survive a few smacks by a single if needed)