I sure hope HW is not going to be more armor grind treadmill!

I've been telling people man... Dynamis, and some sky or limbus type place, with great gear grinds, that whole free companies can go to once every 2 or 3 days would be a game changer, and give us a reason to communicate and chill with our free company. Legendary cursed artifact gear or something.

Not trying to necro-bump the older thread, but a lot of good arguments have been brought up previously on the topic of the "gear treadmill" and how endgame has been handled:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...re-interesting!

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Originally Posted by Luciano_Bozzelli

I've been telling people man... Dynamis, and some sky or limbus type place, with great gear grinds, that whole free companies can go to once every 2 or 3 days would be a game changer, and give us a reason to communicate and chill with our free company. Legendary cursed artifact gear or something.

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God forbid we get relevant content to do with our FC that isn't fluff or vanity. The small FCs would revolt!

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

I agree. I'm fine with some vertical progression (its good to always have something to work towards), but it is disappointing that every patch's combat content replaces what came before it instead of adding to it.

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That's the point of vertical progression though. You don't progress horizontally; adding armour to choose from to design a build for a certain purpose, but rather replace armour over and over to increase a basic stat layout.

I prefer horizontal cause "make the number go big" is boring.

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Originally Posted by Amelia_Pond_Behemoth

The thing I hated most about the treadmill was how expert roulette was handled. Doing the same 3 dungeons for the entire patch period get old real quickly and was the reason for my most recent break. It really needs to be handled better from here on out.

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This; Expert Roulette wasn't so much a way to actual have a higher difficulty playlist as a means of punishing players who were behind by limiting their rate of patch-relevant gear growth, increasing the proportion of gear purchased nearer their own, current ilvl before moving into "current" gear. I'd really rather see the ability to random any dungeon, ilvl-synced, with the ability to remove up to 3 dungeons (and any you've already played that 'day') from the playlist. If a second roulette type is needed, make it include only a few particular random dungeons (differing per day), tending towards the newer and/or more difficult ones, requiring you to have all dungeons unlocked and enter-able or giving part of its bonus as a percentile of the dungeon's base rewards in order to further favor new dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Asmodaeus

To some extend sure, but if you compare the typical theme park MMO´s to older stuff like Everquest, FF11, SWG or Daoc you can see a big difference.

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Everquest and FFXI where ALL about the gear. Everquest was all about getting better and better gear to allow you to raid to also get better gear. So was FFXI, only difference is you got numerous sets for gear swaps to optimize, until an expansion or new content dropped then you would start anew. Both of those are vertical. SWG and DaoC where totally different as the main end game of those 2 was PVP. Not PVE. So the ability to get players to the same level of gear was a main focus so PVP wasn't inaccessible for a protracted period of time.

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Originally Posted by Magis

I prefer horizontal cause "make the number go big" is boring.

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I totally agree with you. This is the main reason I hated WoW - so boring - and why I played XI for years. That game kept me frustrated and busy! Was a total love/hate relationship. But the community was tight and I loved that and miss it very much.

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Originally Posted by Millerna

Because those people resub within a couple of months, and building enough content to keep those type of players subbed for those extra couple of months it going to be way more costly than missing a couple of months of sub fee...

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Not always. All my friends (and I know a lot of people heh :/) who left, never came back. My FC has more "MIA" then active players..and these people are def not subbed. Still unacceptable to say imho! You never want people to take a break from a game like that, because there is a good chance they won't ever come back.

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Originally Posted by Luciano_Bozzelli

I've been telling people man... Dynamis, and some sky or limbus type place, with great gear grinds, that whole free companies can go to once every 2 or 3 days would be a game changer, and give us a reason to communicate and chill with our free company. Legendary cursed artifact gear or something.

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Pretty sure that's what FC airship content will do, but Dynamis content is a consequence of game limitations, not an active design choice.
See, back then games didn't instance their raids. This caused MAJOR problems.
In fact it still does in XI, just on a slightly smaller scale since Dynamis is soloable now, and they just recently got rid of entry limitations.
Add to that, I've looked at those dynamis grinds. The MONTHS required to get anything meaningful are horrid.
We already have raid content you can do with your FC, it's just on a smaller scale so as to not discriminate against those with smaller groups, and said content is getting its systems adjusted in Heavensward to promote getting more "butts in the seat" so to speak. Not every FC has over 100 members and should not be actively punished for not pursuing that number.
Which creates the question of what exactly constitutes "whole free companies."

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Not always. All my friends (and I know a lot of people heh :/) who left, never came back. My FC has more "MIA" then active players..and these people are def not subbed. Still unacceptable to say imho! You never want people to take a break from a game like that, because there is a good chance they won't ever come back.

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I'd be more worried if people DIDN'T leave. That's the nature of MMOs. Many, MANY people are just going to leave after a while. It was true in Ultima Online, it was true in EverQuest, it was true in WoW, and it's true in this game.
The fact that people that cite worry about this still manage to maintain FC numbers over 100 should offer you insight into how this type of community works.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

snip

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Leaving is fine and all on their own accord. :) I was just referring to the producer (Or so someone claimed on the first page of this thread) saying that he is okay with people unsubbing. That has to be a mistranslation because that is really a strange thing to say. If he said, "As long as we retain subs but people take breaks" yeah, that is fine..but not unsubbing lol. If I ever made a MMO I would understand that people would unsub, but I would never encourage it. >.>

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Originally Posted by kyuven

The fact that people that cite worry about this still manage to maintain FC numbers over 100 should offer you insight into how this type of community works.

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That's just it what community? You cant build a community if people are quitting and joining weekly/daily. If I wanted to play games like that I would play Call of Duty! MMORPG's are about making friends and doing things together. Which is hard to do when every time I make a friend, they are quitting 1~3 months (sometimes weeks) later.

Granted I give you times change and people change and no one is going to play the same game forever. Having said that people should not be quitting left and right every 1~3 months. Something is wrong with the game if that happens. I had the same Everquest, Everquest 2, FFXI friends for YEARS! Did people come and go? Sure a few did but not on the scale of this game!

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Originally Posted by Gramul

OH NO!
OBJECTIVE OPINIONS! RUN! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!

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They were not good games. Sorry this is a struggle for you to accept.

Problem is that everyone likes different things, some like story, some like gear, minigames, crafting/gathering etc.

And when you try to constantly add content to all different parts you end up adding a little bit to each one instead of a massive content boost for one and leave everything else on a hold.

So for people whose only purpose or enjoyment is to get the next level of gear then yes they will get bored rather quickly and most likely unsub until the stuff they enjoy gets more content.

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Originally Posted by Blissa

Having said that people should not be quitting left and right every 1~3 months. Something is wrong with the game if that happens.

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Or maybe FFXIV simply isn't the game for them. Most of my FC has been subbed for a year or more and we still log in every night if only just to have fun together, even if we're not doing much of anything in the game beyond rearranging all of the furniture in the house and seeing how long it takes our FC leader to notice. Last night a bunch of us decided to join in on a 21 DRG WoD run for laughs.

There are tons of things to do in the game. If people aren't interested in doing those things, that's on them. It's not a problem with the game itself.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Everquest and FFXI where ALL about the gear. Everquest was all about getting better and better gear to allow you to raid to also get better gear. So was FFXI, only difference is you got numerous sets for gear swaps to optimize, until an expansion or new content dropped then you would start anew. Both of those are vertical. SWG and DaoC where totally different as the main end game of those 2 was PVP. Not PVE. So the ability to get players to the same level of gear was a main focus so PVP wasn't inaccessible for a protracted period of time.

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I never said it wasnt. The huge difference here is you had to rely on people to get that gear and they had to rely on you. You met people, formed friendships and so on. There wasnt a new patch where you could obtain the good stuff with just spamming random dungeon finders and behave like little brats without fearing any consequences. Funny enough, a few days after I finished my level 50 Cleric in Daoc I already had best in slot gear (best stuff was crafted). I still played around 2 years and only switched my Guild 2 times. And no, it wasnt only about PvP. Imagine: Doing raid bosses just for the challenge. Not for the gear or achievments. Staying in the game for months without getting better gear, just being part of the world and the community. That is what MMORPG´s are about (for me).

While some people say those old games were bad, mechanicly, especially PvE stuff was very rough. FFXIV on the other hand has really smooth gameplay (movement and class design) and I like how it feels. Still, for me its nothing more then a solo RPG with added co-op. While the way from 1 - 50 was a nice journey, endgame is nothing more then a 3D Diablo. Like I said before, its okay, I can accept it. But it also brings so much problems with it, like loosing lots of people because there is nothing else to do (beside another grind in crafting or spamming low level fates for "epic" relic weapons).

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Originally Posted by Asmodaeus

Imagine: Doing raid bosses just for the challenge. Not for the gear or achievments. Staying in the game for months without getting better gear, just being part of the world and the community.

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Possible back when the number of decent MMOs could be counted on a single hand.
Impossible now that there are better options that DO reward you for doing content.

Community is what you make of it and its got nothing to do with the gear grind. If this was a different type of game, you'd have entirely different people playing it. The ones that stick it out to 50 and finish all the current content do so because they want to, they just apparently don't want to do anything else afterwards.

My 'guild' (I consider the LS as the guild rather than the FC, we were two groups that wanted our own houses so had our own FCs but use the LS to chat and organise events, and its grown from there) consistently has 40-50 active, talkative people on, and we have a high turnover rate too. We're constantly at capacity and end up having to remove people who have been inactive for 30+ days because there's that many people wanting to join and bring friends in. The reason we're so popular is because the people in it get involved with each other. I finished all the content I was motivated to finish long ago, and so have many others, but we still have fun and enjoy the game by playing with other people, helping newer players get their clears, even just hanging out in the goblet and chatting.

Just recently I've been tanking dungeons for 3 members leveling new jobs. My tank was 50 and I got nothing out of it doing brayflox over and over, but I did it just because I enjoy playing the game with friends and it's more than just an 'armor grind treadmill' to me.

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Originally Posted by Amelia_Pond_Behemoth

The thing I hated most about the treadmill was how expert roulette was handled. Doing the same 3 dungeons for the entire patch period get old real quickly and was the reason for my most recent break. It really needs to be handled better from here on out.

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Yeah all the hard mode dungeons should have been on the expert roulette list imho. The most frustrating thing for me and my 3 friends is that 8 out of 10 tries AK hard is the one we get. That is not random. Its ridiculous! We got Lake once and WP once in the last 10 days. We even get AK if we leave and try again in 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Possible back when the number of decent MMOs could be counted on a single hand.
Impossible now that there are better options that DO reward you for doing content.

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We have very different views about what is "rewarding". My reward was spending a good time with people I knew for months who like me, loved a challenge (bring down a 24 man boss with only a group of 8). We didnt need an achievement to pop up on our list so everyone can see it, it was enough to know the 8 of us did it.

There more I think about it, the memory, even 14 years later is also a reward. More then any piece of gear, stupid achievement or another class at 50 can ever be.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Possible back when the number of decent MMOs could be counted on a single hand.
Impossible now that there are better options that DO reward you for doing content.

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Additionally: that's what Savage 2nd Coil is.

Notice that almost nobody does it.

I like killing difficult bosses too. I did cutting edge raiding for a long time. Killing the hardest content in the game and getting nothing for it? That just sounds like a waste of time to me.

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Originally Posted by Dijana

Community is what you make of it and its got nothing to do with the gear grind. If this was a different type of game, you'd have entirely different people playing it. The ones that stick it out to 50 and finish all the current content do so because they want to, they just apparently don't want to do anything else afterwards.

My 'guild' (I consider the LS as the guild rather than the FC, we were two groups that wanted our own houses so had our own FCs but use the LS to chat and organise events, and its grown from there) consistently has 40-50 active, talkative people on, and we have a high turnover rate too. We're constantly at capacity and end up having to remove people who have been inactive for 30+ days because there's that many people wanting to join and bring friends in. The reason we're so popular is because the people in it get involved with each other. I finished all the content I was motivated to finish long ago, and so have many others, but we still have fun and enjoy the game by playing with other people, helping newer players get their clears, even just hanging out in the goblet and chatting.

Just recently I've been tanking dungeons for 3 members leveling new jobs. My tank was 50 and I got nothing out of it doing brayflox over and over, but I did it just because I enjoy playing the game with friends and it's more than just an 'armor grind treadmill' to me.

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Not the gear grind, but the anonymity the game allows you to keep. I don´t want to say you can´t form a nice Guild with friendly people, I just say its much harder here because you can do almost anything on your own (just getting together to finish a dungeon has nothing to do with community or socialising) and that is one of the biggest reasons why people choose to not talk in groups, behave like the biggest muppets and vanish from one day to the other (and might start on another server).

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Originally Posted by Asmodaeus

Not the gear grind, but the anonymity the game allows you to keep. I don´t want to say you can´t form a nice Guild with friendly people, I just say its much harder here because you can do almost anything for yourself

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But that's still ultimately the choice to play on your own. With the game the way it is, you know those that go out of their way to socialise do so because they want to, not because they have to just to get stuff done. You don't have to play with other people to get anything done as you say, but I think it's far more enjoyable to do so. I quite often try to chat to groups in DF, sometimes nobody responds, sometimes others start chatting too after a bit of coaxing. I've made good friends with people I've met in DF this way too.

Personally im a bit worried about the "increase" in the ilvl progression from normal raid to savage. Not to say savage shouldn't be better, but it should only be better within a margin that the "previous" tier can still potentially find a place in depending on your current gear/stats and playstyle. The game currently allows something akin to this by the ilvl gap being "manageable" from one previous tier to another, and i feel too large an increase between tiers will just allow the main stat to overpower any secondary stat benefit from lower ilvl tiers. Its still vertical, but with options, as opposed to just higher ilvl = automatically better.

should note i mean this behavior as in regards when content is first out and relevant, obviously with time and as more gear is farmed the current "best gear" is going to more than likely overpower the old once the players average ilvl is equal to the then current ilvl. But before that the old gear should at least make you wonder if you wanna use that new shiny piece now or wait till you have more shiny pieces cuz your old one is still doing its job well :P

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Originally Posted by Asmodaeus

We have very different views about what is "rewarding". My reward was spending a good time with people I knew for months who like me, loved a challenge (bring down a 24 man boss with only a group of 8). We didnt need an achievement to pop up on our list so everyone can see it, it was enough to know the 8 of us did it.

There more I think about it, the memory, even 14 years later is also a reward. More then any piece of gear, stupid achievement or another class at 50 can ever be.

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I can count on one hand how many groups I had where people said more then hi. And that is another major problem with this game.

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Originally Posted by Blissa

I can count on one hand how many groups I had where people said more then hi. And that is another major problem with people

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fixed it for you. people choose not to talk.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

fixed it for you. people choose not to talk.

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Yep thats true, they choose not to talk and it makes gameplay nothing more then a action RPG. There is zero incentive to talk in DF because you can faceroll everything.

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Originally Posted by Blissa

Yep thats true, they choose not to talk and it makes gameplay nothing more then a action RPG. There is zero incentive to talk in DF because you can faceroll everything.

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Right up until you don't.

I talked a group of 1 new player and 2 guys in full AF who must've been asleep the first time through story mode Titan just the other day.

Most of the time, I don't want to have a conversation in my dungeons. I want to do the dungeon and be done. During raids with my static I talk, I joke, I have a relationship. I don't need to be doing that constantly in every bit of content in order to feel fulfilled as a person.

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Originally Posted by Asmodaeus

I never said it wasnt. The huge difference here is you had to rely on people to get that gear and they had to rely on you. You met people, formed friendships and so on. There wasnt a new patch where you could obtain the good stuff with just spamming random dungeon finders and behave like little brats without fearing any consequences. Funny enough, a few days after I finished my level 50 Cleric in Daoc I already had best in slot gear (best stuff was crafted). I still played around 2 years and only switched my Guild 2 times. And no, it wasnt only about PvP. Imagine: Doing raid bosses just for the challenge. Not for the gear or achievments. Staying in the game for months without getting better gear, just being part of the world and the community. That is what MMORPG´s are about (for me).

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Well DaoC got then PvE side expanded upon with expansions, but still, the main (main is !=sole) focus of DaoC was frontiers.

Anywho. EQ was a prime example of problematic design in making previous content as keys to higher content as it got to a point where no-one was running that content anymore and players where hitting brick walls they could not progress beyond due to no one running those raids on the server, thus they were unable to flag and/or key for content that players were running. By adding cross server queues aka DF, it expands the pool to facilitate progression through older content that a large part of the playerbase has moved on from, the rewards from roullette are to incentivize players to return to that content whilst reducing the cherry picking of certain dungeons to help newer players progress and clear that earlier content.

Outside of certain roulettes, DF is wholely optional to que and to be matched up with random players, the choice is there for the player to either utilize DF thus or to do the content as a full premade party either created through friends, LS, FC or party finder.

Also if you think older games where are all fine and happy with a 100% friendly community then you are looking through rose tinted glasses. In Everquest there were certain guilds notorious for griefing.

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Originally Posted by Blissa

I can count on one hand how many groups I had where people said more then hi. And that is another major problem with this game.

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I don't comm people who don't talk in the dungeon. You could be the most amazing player of all time but if you don't social you get nothin'.

That said, I don't tend to use the duty finder for two reasons (both of which apply to your losing people); 1) I'm in no rush to get the bestest of the shinies, and 2) I want to spend my time playing with people I can talk to.

When my partner and I first started this game at launch we rushed through everything, burned the content and did all of the things. We got to 50, did the dungeons and trials and then... Got bored. We didn't look forward to the prospect of doing the same two dungeons over and over again to progress. So we stopped. When we came back? We've taken our good sweet time. We bumble about, exploring the world (what there is to explore, really) and just sampling things here and there. It's the people we know that mostly keep us occupied and that's what so many people who play modern MMOs are overlooking.

People like the people in your guild don't care about the social aspect. They will come in, do their duty roulettes, get their gear, max out then leave because they only care about consuming the content. To them, you and everyone in your FC and everyone they'll ever match up with in the Duty Finder might as well be NPCs there who's only purpose is to get them closer to their next piece of gear.

This is not a problem with the game (though I do wish there were more horizontal options, but that's a topic elsewhere!) but instead a problem with why people play these games.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Also if you think older games where are all fine and happy with a 100% friendly community then you are looking through rose tinted glasses. In Everquest there were certain guilds notorious for griefing.

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FFXI also had rampant elitism going on. The "good old days" almost never were.

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Originally Posted by Caraway

This is not a problem with the game (though I do wish there were more horizontal options, but that's a topic elsewhere!) but instead a problem with why people play these games.

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Actually it isn't either. You're assuming it's a problem because it's different than what you want out of the game. Blissa is doing the same thing.

A problem is something wrong that requires a solution. But just because some people are playing the game differently or for different reasons than you doesn't automatically create a situation in need of a solution. It's possible that you simply won't enjoy playing with those players, and that's perfectly fine. You've already said you prefer to play with your FC and that seems like the most reasonable way to handle it. But it doesn't mean there's something wrong with the other people who might be playing the game differently.

I, personally, will usually say hi at the start of a dungeon and thank everyone at the end. But I don't go out of my way to strike up conversation with 3 strangers I'm never going to see again. If, in your view, that makes me some kind of anti-social misanthrope, then ok.. but it's not actually a problem with me.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Actually it isn't either. You're assuming it's a problem because it's different than what you want out of the game. Blissa is doing the same thing.

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Well, truth be told, it's something I expect out of an MMO because I always thought that was the point. Coming at an MMO from a solo/anti-social stand-point I'm of the opinion there are much better single-player games out there that evoke the kind of grind you get from a lot of MMO games available.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

A problem is something wrong that requires a solution.

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Going with the above, and my understanding of an MMO being a social-based grinding game (that's generally the tie that binds the genre, so I've seen), it seems wrong to me in that it kills the games. If people are constantly leaving then that is bad and a solution is necessary. Long-term retention is kind of the point of MMOs and you'll see the ones with the longest retention are the ones with the biggest focus on community (EverQuest had plenty of stuff wrong with it, but it's still going strong and has had people subbing for over a decade).

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Originally Posted by Callinon

I, personally, will usually say hi at the start of a dungeon and thank everyone at the end. But I don't go out of my way to strike up conversation with 3 strangers I'm never going to see again. If, in your view, that makes me some kind of anti-social misanthrope, then ok.. but it's not actually a problem with me.

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Honestly, with how most folks are in game just a "Hi!" and a "Thanks for the run" at the end are enough. It's an acknowledgement that you're playing with humans and not NPCs. It's the folks who'll wait just long enough to get Protect (sometimes not even that!) and then bolt to go pull the first set of mobs without so much as a "how do you do?" who get my goat.

And in that instance, I think it is a fault with the game. Mainly in that when you Duty Finder you're unlikely to ever see the person again so why bother making a connection? I don't fault folks for that thought, it's an easy one to get into (and again why I avoid Duty Finder). I keep hoping that some day they'll make an adjustment to the inter-server so that you can actually communicate to people on other servers.

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Originally Posted by Caraway

Well, truth be told, it's something I expect out of an MMO because I always thought that was the point. Coming at an MMO from a solo/anti-social stand-point I'm of the opinion there are much better single-player games out there that evoke the kind of grind you get from a lot of MMO games available.

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The problem with this line of thinking is, it makes people have to wait to form parties. People don't want to wait, they may not have time to wait, they may just want to enjoy a constantly updated continuing world, without the need to wait. There is no way to know what makes people choose an MMO, but to force people to wait to enjoy something is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Jasmine_Aurelia

The problem with this line of thinking is, it makes people have to wait to form parties. People don't want to wait, they may not have time to wait, they may just want to enjoy a constantly updated continuing world, without the need to wait. There is no way to know what makes people choose an MMO, but to force people to wait to enjoy something is wrong.

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True enough, to a point. And it's actually something I've been boggled by with some of SE's design decisions. Guild Wars 2 seems to have done this the best with the way they handle multi-server functionality. You can bring people into your server or temporarily go to theirs as need be and you can always talk to other people no matter where they are, making the community all the bigger for it. Less waiting, more social.

As long as you don't need to wait to do content, I don't care how its done.

The best way to do that is to make the game as soloable, yes, some content needs groups, but the majority of the game should...actually hold on, the majority of the content should scale to group size? Would that make both camps happy?

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

They were not good games. Sorry this is a struggle for you to accept.

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I'm not in the mood for this type of poppycock at the moment so I hope you don't mind if I just drop the old link here:

http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/factsopinions/

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I'm not in the mood for this type of poppycock at the moment so I hope you don't mind if I just drop the old link here:

http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/factsopinions/

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Sorry you're unable to accept the validity of my statement.

MMOs being bad is only a minor impediment to people enjoying those games. When the enjoyment of an MMO comes because of the players and in spite of the game, the game is bad. The players can be amazing and cool and people you want to spend the next five years playing games with and how you derive all of your enjoyment from the game.

That doesn't make the game good.

Am I the only one that thinks is strange that people seem to want MMO's to be chat rooms first and games second?

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Sorry you're unable to accept the validity of my statement.

MMOs being bad is only a minor impediment to people enjoying those games. When the enjoyment of an MMO comes because of the players and in spite of the game, the game is bad. The players can be amazing and cool and people you want to spend the next five years playing games with and how you derive all of your enjoyment from the game.

That doesn't make the game good.

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Saying the games are bad is a subjective judgment, also known as an opinion, not a fact.

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Originally Posted by Jasmine_Aurelia

As long as you don't need to wait to do content, I don't care how its done.

The best way to do that is to make the game as soloable, yes, some content needs groups, but the majority of the game should...actually hold on, the majority of the content should scale to group size? Would that make both camps happy?

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...What's the point of making an MMORPG, a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online role-playing game, solo-able?
Why not just play a single-player game if you want to play by yourself?

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Nah, they're definitely bad.

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Bad to you which is an opinion no matter how much you think that what you say is a fact it is not sorry... I know it is hard for you to take that your opinion is just that an opinion but it is...
You humans always thinking that what you say is right and thinking anything else is wrong... no wonder you keep wanting to fight with each other and you will never know peace... haha.

The cat is bemused =-.-=

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

...What's the point of making an MMORPG, a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online role-playing game, solo-able?
Why not just play a single-player game if you want to play by yourself?

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Because not everyone likes to be limited in what they can do when friends arent around to party with. Having a history with MMOs with enforced partying aka, FFXI and EQ, I much prefer being able to, when I want to, log on and do my own thing without worrying if the people are available, and when friends are on then I can do party stuff.

Forced grouping is only sustainable when there are enough players at each level bracket. Which only happens at release when the majority are levelling. If you didn't keep up with the crowd you got left behind, which meaned even less players to party with which extended the time even more. No-one wants to be waiting hours looking for something as basic as being able to level anymore. Myself included, I want to play, not sit in another Jueno or Freeport for hours on end hoping for an XP party, or for enough players to join.