RIP Bard

Why the hell is this considered "RIP BARD" to people? This is what people have been asking for - a LOT. They wanted to be more Archer/Ranger with "Cast times on ranged attacks" to be more DPS based. Well, here's an awesome song that will allow you to amplify your damage at the expense of not moving.

Personally? I find this -awesome- and think that it will really define a good bard over the ADHD bards that jump in circles spamming a single skill. -_-

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Why the hell is this considered "RIP BARD" to people? This is what people have been asking for - a LOT. They wanted to be more Archer/Ranger with "Cast times on ranged attacks" to be more DPS based. Well, here's an awesome song that will allow you to amplify your damage at the expense of not moving.

Personally? I find this -awesome- and think that it will really define a good bard over the ADHD bards that jump in circles spamming a single skill. -_-

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Yeah, I mean I was fine with the support in the background role of bard as we do small roles too because we're the only current mobile dps and songs are pure support but this gives us a little bit of a boost when we're burning in a period of a boss phase with no movement being required. :x

So I accept this skill wholeheartedly, it'll just take time to get use to its pros and cons.

Yeah, kind of have to go with the 'this is awesome' people. I mean, casters have had to stand still to do their roles since role playing games have been a thing and noone's complained about that. Bard will get an ability that will theoretically put them on par with casters damage-wise and suddenly it's all doom and gloom? I think this is going to be pretty cool. I like being a support role but this will definitely make my solo life alot easier and will probably get some use in party content.

As a BRD Main...

-I'm really confused/puzzled by the turret moding effect being put as a song buff. I mean there's willing suspension of belief, but how does me singing improve my own damage through stronger, less frequent shots?

-As people have mention, this essentially disables barrage, which is one of the stronger cooldowns when stacked with B4B and hawkeye. Unless barrage adds to the charge somehow...otherwise I don't get why they'd even showcase the bard using barrage in the video.

Outside of that, I already dislike bards for being fairly underwhelming with their animations/overall aesthetics. Looking from the effects and animations alone, it seems really underwhelming compared to what the other classes are getting

personally i dont think its that bad.. if anything its gonna improve bards dps alot, yesh bard love to run around while dpsing but we dont really have to most of the time

I agree with others, thinking the damage increase will have to be substantial; since we'll be losing auto-attacks, movement and instant shots. But if it is, I look forward to this ability.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Why the hell is this considered "RIP BARD" to people?

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When I originally created the thread I was actually too late for the live letter and was watching the job skill animations. I didn't think that the song had anything to do with the cast times at first and saw the cast times being applied to poison shot and windbite. It's not a problem now that I know it's a toggle with the song. The ability is still extremely situational and until we know everything about it we can't actually know if it would even be viable to use as a Bard.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

The ability is still extremely situational and until we know everything about it we can't actually know if it would even be viable to use as a Bard.

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Are you really so daft as to think a brand new ability that is supposed to increase your damage output is not viable, just because it comes with caveats?

my main issue with this skill is the amount of times im going to be forced to use it (2.5s GCD on top of that) everytime i move and stop i will use that skill....move and stop? use it again...

wondering if will have a CD or not :S

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Originally Posted by Jarinolde

Are you really so daft as to think a brand new ability that is supposed to increase your damage output is not viable, just because it comes with caveats?

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Wait, so under that logic do you think the MP & TP songs aren't viable because they lower your damage?

Besides, like I said before, the song requires a 2.5 second cast and then proceeds to give your core attacks casting times as well as stop your auto-attack. It was pointed out before that during the video, the Bard put up Barrage, which should be useless under the effects of the new song, but we don't know if Barrage can affect the damage output anyway. We don't know how much the damage buff is going to be, so it stands to reason that we don't know whether or not the loss of potential damage is outweighed by the damage buff. Hence, we have to wait before we can say whether or not it is a viable thing.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Outside of that, I already dislike bards for being fairly underwhelming with their animations/overall aesthetics. Looking from the effects and animations alone, it seems really underwhelming compared to what the other classes are getting

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I play BRD as my main since 2013 and this is honestly my only problem with BRD.

Depending on how it works it might not be too bad, or... really bad. For one, you have to spend 3 seconds casting it just to start into the bonus stance, over a global lost. Once up, you automatically spend the time between attacks (probably really just the first oGCD, or else it's a null animation and is just filling up the time while granting the buff regardless) 'charging' the next attack. They additionally mentioned that the "effect" disappears whenever you move, but this may refer to the 'charge' rather than the whole song, at least. Whether we are free to throw out attacks after having just moved or have an automatic 'casting time' of standing still is what will probably really screw us. If we can move to the same extent that any caster can, such as their being able to move a few feet towards the end of any cast without losing uptime, then we should be okay. I mostly just hope that it is only a (percentile) direct damage increase (such that Windbite isn't much affected), or that Straighter Shot at the least will carry the bonus of 'charging' even without actually charging. If not, our movement potential becomes far worse than a BLM's, with zero proc-based movement time.

The most awkward thing to me is that Bards will then be even less willing to support, as it will cost them an even more massive amount of dps and that the gameplay between a 'singing' (Foe/Army/Ballad) Bard and a 'wandering' (Turret) bard will be awkwardly different.
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I was honestly just hoping for some song-based skill-shot, such as being able to detonate some effect you put on an enemy during Foe requiem to deal immediate damage based on the DoTs affecting it or create a capped amount of bonus direct damage to spells for a short duration (use before Flare/Fester), something that causes TP restore per ability on an enemy for a short time under Paeon, and causes a burst of mana around you when that shot hits/crits or a bonus-healing-taken-per-hit-effect on target with that shot in Ballad.

If Bard dps feels in need of an increase after that, reduce the dps cost on Ballad/Paeon to 15%, cause Foe to affect Bloodletter, Windbite DoT, and Venomous Bite DoT. Add in a simple stance, rather than using a Song which would lock Bard out of it's traditionally 'Bard' functions, like 'Deep Shot' / 'Full Bow' / whatever that increases range slightly and direct damage by a noticeable bit by removing auto-attacks and adding a 'charge' time. This charge time is generated over 1.5 seconds, adjusted by skill speed. You can still cast other oGCD moves during the charge without breaking it (the other animations will not show). You can move for the first .67 seconds of the charge, but the effect will be dropped if you move after this time, including after the completion of the charge. Charge consumed on next shot. While under the effect of this Stance, Barrage instead causes your single-abilities to deal 50% duplicated damage and/or effect spread evenly among your target and all non-CCed enemies within 5 yalms of your target with an additional +25% bonus duplication per enemy, with 5% diminished bonus with each enemy added.
--> Basically exactly the same, except that it 1) doesn't stop us from 'Barding'; 2) for sure no animation lock - can use oGCDs freely and can move freely, you'd just be wasting/skipping the buff by moving (after charging but before firing) / firing (after moving and needing to re-charge) too soon; doesn't waste / lock out Barrage.

[If you need something proc-y: Straighter Shot will decrease the charge time to 1 second for 8 seconds (will show as a + at the bottom-right corner of the Deep Stance icon. The + sign will flash before disappearing). Under the effect, you could basically charge up twice, if need be, within a GCD.]

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

Wait, so under that logic do you think the MP & TP songs aren't viable because they lower your damage?

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No, that's your logic. Minuet increases your damage at the cost of your movement and auto-attacks. Ballad and Paeon decreases your damage at the benefit of restoring MP and TP. Do you see how this works now? You don't just get a huge damage buff for little or no cost. Most of the time it comes with a long cooldown, but this is a song so these are the requirements if you want this damage boost. It's the same thing with BLM's new Ley Lines ability.

If you're really unsure about it's potential, then I encourage you and others to do as you say further down your post, and wait and see. But by no means will this be relegated off to the side along side BRD's other oft unused abilities like Shadowbind or Swiftsong. Every single new ability is supposed to change up each job in big ways.

I like how some people are already assuming that Minuet will be useless and "not viable".

I highly doubt the dev's would release a brand new over-hyped ability only to have it thrown in the trashbin along with the old tri-disaster.

We'll see though.

I like BRD as is and the upcoming additions have me very excited.

I may be alone in this next bit, but is no one else dying to see how Sidewinder is going to influence DoTs? Is it going to be a flat dmg boost to applied dots or will it lengthen the duration? I would personally like the latter, but in any event still pretty stoked.

:( I love my BRD! I didn't think I would when I went WHM (1.0) > BLM (1.0) > BLM (2.0) quickly to go > WHM (2.0) cause it "seemed" more fun > SCH (2.0) > dropped it for BRD (2.0) cause our static was already decked out with healers but the reason I stayed on BRD is: I loved being able to move freely while not sucking at it.... Literally the reason why I stayed on BRD ever since venturing into the first Coil way back then (second being that the job couldn't have fit my character's name more perfectly).

Also, what's wrong with running around like a headless chicken if you manage to keep yourself alive, not be a burden to healers and tanks, support the team and have a constantly good dps?

Bad = bad regardless of job and jelly people chained to one spot = still jelly >:P Let me run free damnit! (yes, even if I don't have to) >.< *shakes fist*

Putting all that premature crying I just did aside, we've yet to see how it actually feels once we're able to use it so, here's hoping it won't be as terrible as my mind is making it out to be :x

Well that's good, it seems like they'll actually add some complexity for BRDs: They gotta stay still if they wanna boost their dps

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Originally Posted by Jarinolde

If you're really unsure about it's potential, then I encourage you and others to do as you say further down your post, and wait and see. But by no means will this be relegated off to the side along side BRD's other oft unused abilities like Shadowbind or Swiftsong. Every single new ability is supposed to change up each job in big ways.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

Besides, like I said before, the song requires a 2.5 second cast and then proceeds to give your core attacks casting times as well as stop your auto-attack. It was pointed out before that during the video, the Bard put up Barrage, which should be useless under the effects of the new song, but we don't know if Barrage can affect the damage output anyway. We don't know how much the damage buff is going to be, so it stands to reason that we don't know whether or not the loss of potential damage is outweighed by the damage buff. Hence, we have to wait before we can say whether or not it is a viable thing.

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I already said that...

More than likely it will either be used in single target nuke scenarios or as a way to beef up AoE.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

What's really funny is that if you actually do have another song on when you have this stance up then you're really doing it wrong...

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I think the reasoning for this is so that the new song can be played at the same time as Foe. Since this looks to be something that will be good for BRD opener and not having the ability to Foe at the start would completely shit all over BLM/SMN openers.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

I already said that...

More than likely it will either be used in single target nuke scenarios or as a way to beef up AoE.

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*facepalm* you didn't even read it did you...

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do as you say further down your post

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Yes, I was indeed referencing what you said.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

This is honestly the only buff BRD was missing. BRD is going to be epic now! :)

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Erm...unless fights become a lot less movement-dependent, this is not going to lead to good things. The song has a cast time, combined with cast times added to your skills. This plus movement requirements means BRDs would not be using it because the reduced DPS is better than no DPS between animation locks, cast times, and having to cancel the buff for movement.

I'm not sure why BRD would even need this. I've mentioned that cast times for ranged attacks make sense, but in the context of a NEW class with a different weapon.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

I highly doubt the dev's would release a brand new over-hyped ability only to have it thrown in the trashbin along with the old tri-disaster.

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To be fair, the arguments are pretty solid. There would need to be a very significant bonus to damage to make up for everything you're losing to get it. Lest we forget that these are the same devs that removed Thunder from cross-classing and then heavily nerfed Blizzard II. So it's not like every change they make is for the better.

I'll hold off on condemnation until I see some DPS results, but given the heavy restrictions placed upon it I can't imagine it getting much use.

I wonder.

If BRD stays at the same efficiency compared to other DPS without using this new song as it is now, and the new song helps us boost that DPS, then it's good.
If they make it so that BRD *has* to use this new song frequently to be as effective as they are today, it's a huge nerf and will make tons of BRDs switch classes.

I doubt any BRD picked up the class to stand around and deal with cast bars - that's what BLM is there for.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

As a BRD Main...

-I'm really confused/puzzled by the turret moding effect being put as a song buff. I mean there's willing suspension of belief, but how does me singing improve my own damage through stronger, less frequent shots?

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Either A.) The singing in this case helps us "concentrate" (despite being able to sing another song alongside it) so our charged shots, aside from the charge, are hitting better areas (not quite critical hits but closer.)

Or B.) We are singing "I love you" at the top of our voices, weakening enemy morale and thus making them easier to kill.

(Also I'm not a Bard main, but I'm in the crowd of "probably good".)

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Either A.) The singing in this case helps us "concentrate" (despite being able to sing another song alongside it) so our charged shots, aside from the charge, are hitting better areas (not quite critical hits but closer.)

Or B.) We are singing "I love you" at the top of our voices, weakening enemy morale and thus making them easier to kill.

(Also I'm not a Bard main, but I'm in the crowd of "probably good".)

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I much more wonder how the hell we're supposed to be able to sing two songs at once in the first place. Should've just called it a "Stance" or "Mode" like for other classes, really.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

To be fair, the arguments are pretty solid. There would need to be a very significant bonus to damage to make up for everything you're losing to get it. Lest we forget that these are the same devs that removed Thunder from cross-classing and then heavily nerfed Blizzard II. So it's not like every change they make is for the better.

I'll hold off on condemnation until I see some DPS results, but given the heavy restrictions placed upon it I can't imagine it getting much use.

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"While under the effect of the Wanderer’s Minuet, you’ll be able to deal high amounts of damage by charging up you bow" The heavy restrictions are there for a reason, Bard will become a powerhouse most likely when using Minuet. They have to make the penalty for moving so severe, so you don't steam roll everything. To me it seems like the "Ley lines" from BLM modified a bit honestly. I'm confident Minuet will be required for Bard in any good group going forward.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I doubt any BRD picked up the class to stand around and deal with cast bars - that's what BLM is there for.

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Well, you're right, I didn't pick Bard to be a Black Mage, I picked it to be a Bard. To support the party through song. The fact that XIV's Bard can also deal damage while singing is a bonus in my book. Being able to switch from support to DD with a song is an even bigger bonus given how much people seem to want me to do just that. But as the saying goes, "Can't have your cake and eat it, too." There's got to be some kind of drawback for going full DD, and this seems a good compromise to me. I mean, it's either this or the alternative of cutting our range in half (or more) while keeping mobility and GCD.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I much more wonder how the hell we're supposed to be able to sing two songs at once in the first place. Should've just called it a "Stance" or "Mode" like for other classes, really.

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Probably in a similar way as Chet Atkins played "Yankee Doodle" and "Dixie" at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Well, you're right, I didn't pick Bard to be a Black Mage, I picked it to be a Bard. To support the party through song. The fact that XIV's Bard can also deal damage while singing is a bonus in my book. Being able to switch from support to DD with a song is an even bigger bonus given how much people seem to want me to do just that. But as the saying goes, "Can't have your cake and eat it, too." There's got to be some kind of drawback for going full DD, and this seems a good compromise to me. I mean, it's either this or the alternative of cutting our range in half (or more) while keeping mobility and GCD.

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I would be perfectly fine if the song song required me to be at melee range if it meant that I kept my mobility. They could sell it as "point-blank" shots, or a song of bravado where Bards would get in close to make enemies feel the full weight of their shots.

This time last year

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Originally Posted by Every Bard on the FFXIV Forums

pls yoshi-p senpai i will sacrifice all my movement for extra deeps

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Greetings,

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

If you move... AT ALL... the effect disappears. This seems like a seriously situational skill at best. The bonus damage would have to be very significant for me to give up my mobility, auto-attacks and attack speed just to use a handful of skills with long charge times.

I'll reserve judgement until I've had a play with it, but I'm not thrilled by the immediate prospects yet.

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Originally Posted by Seifa

Wow, i didn't understand that Minuet disappears if you move, i understood that you lose the cast time of the spell, obviously. This is just a clunky mechanic for the sake of being clunky. The prospect of playing a physical BLM isn't appealing at all.......

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Actually the effect from Wanderer's Minuet does not disappear when you move, this is our mistake, and we apologize for the confusion. It is as Seifa mentioned, that if you move while using your actions, then that action will be interrupted.

We have updated our post with the correct information in the digest thread here.

Its probably something that will let others differentiate those who care to those who dont. A bard who is able to effectively use this song gets even stronger. However a bard that doesn't know how to use the song and doesnt want to use it, still does optimal minimal BRD dps. The only way this skill can potentially hurt someones numbers is if they don't know how to use it but still use it anyways with no knowledge.

I guess there giving us BRD mains a reason to NOT mess up as we dont really get punished for messing up like BLM or the melee's do. If you can do it correctly more deeps, if you cant well.....back to the drawing board for you.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

We have updated our post with the correct information in the digest thread here.

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Praise be to the bomb for it's scorching clarity is brightest in all the land!

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I much more wonder how the hell we're supposed to be able to sing two songs at once in the first place. Should've just called it a "Stance" or "Mode" like for other classes, really.

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According to some other threads I've seen XI did allow not only two songs at once, but even four at once! Which is even wierder. Mayhaps its more of when you sing both songs, you kinda combine them into one. Mash-ups and all that.

cool , thats what i have been asking for , a butt that let me do more dmg in exchange for being able to move and dps ! , our gameplay will be like a "caster" with that buff but i dont mind :3

now the animation ....:S , why dont use a full animation of picking arrow puting it on the string and charging the shot instead of being stuck picking the arrow from quiver? D:

I just saw the update! That means it lowers dps if you're moving with the song on because no auto attack nor skills can be done but doesn't restrict your movement. :)

I'm glad that got cleared up, thanks Zhexos. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

According to some other threads I've seen XI did allow not only two songs at once, but even four at once! Which is even wierder. Mayhaps its more of when you sing both songs, you kinda combine them into one. Mash-ups and all that.

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You could have two songs up on each party member per bard, but it required having an instrument equipped offhand, and you couldn't have double of a song up. There were also about 20 times as many songs.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

You could have two songs up on each party member per bard, but it required having an instrument equipped offhand, and you couldn't have double of a song up. There were also about 20 times as many songs.

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Still not exactly something that would be easy to do, and thats BEFORE we start talking about doing so in battle. That said it makes sense, more so if one song is considered voice and the other instrumental I guess.

Though now I wonder where I got the "one person could do 4 songs at once" thing from...

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Still not exactly something that would be easy to do, and thats BEFORE we start talking about doing so in battle. That said it makes sense, more so if one song is considered voice and the other instrumental I guess.

Though now I wonder where I got the "one person could do 4 songs at once" thing from...

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If I'm not remembering wrong, the maximum number of songs that could be affecting you was 4, but that would require two bards in the party.

So according Zhexos' update, the buff doesn't prevent movement like I originally though. It basically turns BRD into a caster. I'm still not happy to hear that and question why that wasn't reserved for a future ranged DPS class.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Greetings,


Actually the effect from Wanderer's Minuet does not disappear when you move, this is our mistake, and we apologize for the confusion. It is as Seifa mentioned, that if you move while using your actions, then that action will be interrupted.

We have updated our post with the correct information in the digest thread here.

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Oh wow, i didn't expect my emo rant to make a community team member to post and clarify this mechanic a bit.... I should do this more often. Still, i'm eating salt because i'm not sure i like this mechanic or not >.<