RIP WHM/SCH

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

They said it's a regen field on the stream.

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Ah, I missed that. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

I am not sure I grasp your reasoning there.

Assuming that the Crit proc of Adlo also applies when Emergency is active (and this is still not confirmed), it will be 1200 heal + 2400 heal (conversion double shield). That is 3600. Not sure where your 5400 comes from.

I would take a 3600 shield over a 3600 heal ANY day. There is no situation where a heal is better than a shield, unless there will be mechanics which ignore shields. In that case, lol, f**k scholar.

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Yep, completely right... the "Upgrade" just seems kind of silly to me. I would of much rather got something new an interesting, like a heal which heals the target each time they are hit. Or a shield that regenerates itself every few seconds.

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Originally Posted by desufin

Raw Healing and Shield Healing are NOT the same.

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Of course they are not. Shield healing is pretty much always better. If you are sitting at 2000hp + 1200 shield on you, it is EXACTLY the same as having 3200hp with no shield - with Shield having the advantage of raising your max HP potentially into infinite.

I guess the concept would be clearer if life bars showed the shield portion on top of people's HP.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

I would take a 3600 shield over a 3600 heal ANY day. There is no situation where a heal is better than a shield, unless there will be mechanics which ignore shields. In that case, lol, f**k scholar.

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Except when the shield doesn't stack. 1600+1600 cast twice isn't as powerful as 3200 cast twice if one of those 1600s is going to be nulled.

Also it depends on how Emergency works. If it actually amplifies the healing potency slightly the question becomes far less simple and more dependant on exactly what your target needs and the presence of others.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

I am not sure I grasp your reasoning there.

Assuming that the Crit proc of Adlo also applies when Emergency is active (and this is still not confirmed), it will be 1200 heal + 2400 heal (conversion double shield). That is 3600. Not sure where your 5400 comes from.

I would take a 3600 shield over a 3600 heal ANY day. There is no situation where a heal is better than a shield, unless there will be mechanics which ignore shields. In that case, lol, f**k scholar.

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Ummmm... if you crit adloqium the initial heal is gonna be more than the non-crit heal of 1200, that why I projected it would be 1800 (quick guess). 1800 x 2 = 3600 (shield). 1800+3600 = 5400. Get it?

I would of rather had something like an AOE emergency off-gcd no mana heal with a 2-3 minute cooldown that fully heals all party and raid members around you.

Or a shield that gives you shielding based off how much max HP you've lost. That would of been a cool mechanic, so if you have 10% of your life left 90% of the life you don't have turns into a shield. Which gives you time to bring everyone back up.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

I am not sure I grasp your reasoning there.

I would take a 3600 shield over a 3600 heal ANY day.

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But think of certain situations where you need to top up a tank at low hp. Say the whm is busy casting medica 2 (long cast) and the tank drops very quickly. Oh shit you have no aetherflow stacks left! Boom emergency tactics adloquium = Nice big heal! No overhealing if he actually needs the health. It's very situational but I like the concept.

Who knows how it will come in handy. but its all speculation at this point. Maybe its a lot better than what the non-player translator made it seem to be.

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Originally Posted by Mendalas

But think of certain situations where you need to top up a tank at low hp. Say the whm is busy casting medica 2 (long cast) and the tank drops very quickly. Oh shit you have no aetherflow stacks left! Boom emergency tactics adloquium = Nice big heal! No overhealing if he actually needs the health. It's very situational but I like the concept.

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Your using and relying on Lustrate too much, its not very good to spam it because you will need it if the tank gets low HP.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I would of rather had something like an AOE emergency off-gcd no mana heal with a 2-3 minute cooldown that fully heals all party and raid members around you.

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Benediction is an off-GCD, no cost single target full heal and has a five minute cooldown. What you're asking for would have a notably longer cooldown than that.

And I think that's what Dissipation is intended to be for - "Screw my fairy slowly healing everyone I need to do work now."

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Your using and relying on Lustrate too much, its not very good to spam it because you will need it if the tank gets low HP.

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Hey I am a white mage main here but I am just trying to bring speculation to a "RIP WHM/SCH" thread... People are making assumptions a month before the expansion is out. We have no idea how Emergency tactics is really gonna work hence using the key word speculation.

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Originally Posted by Mendalas

But think of certain situations where you need to top up a tank at low hp. Say the whm is busy casting medica 2 (long cast) and the tank drops very quickly. Oh shit you have no aetherflow stacks left! Boom emergency tactics adloquium = Nice big heal! No overhealing if he actually needs the health. It's very situational but I like the concept.

Who knows how it will come in handy. but its all speculation at this point. Maybe its a lot better than what the non-player translator made it seem to be.

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I get that.
My question still stands - why?

Why is it better for the tank to have more health rather than less health but shield, for the same total amount?

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

Benediction is an off-GCD, no cost single target full heal and has a five minute cooldown. What you're asking for would have a notably longer cooldown than that.

And I think that's what Dissipation is intended to be for - "Screw my fairy slowly healing everyone I need to do work now."

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I'd much rather have macros which tell my fairy what to heal between my normal heals. Controlling the fairy is a big part of how SCH plays, if you don't you shouldn't play SCH.

Unless its something rather significant, its not worth it. Honestly. It will drop your HPS way more then help the group.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Of course they are not. Shield healing is pretty much always better. If you are sitting at 2000hp + 1200 shield on you, it is EXACTLY the same as having 3200hp with no shield - with Shield having the advantage of raising your max HP potentially into infinite.

I guess the concept would be clearer if life bars showed the shield portion on top of people's HP.

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Shield healing is only effective when A) you aren't in need of casting a heal again before Galvanize is used up and B) galvanize is actually used up. I don't get why it's so hard to see why a raw heal vs. a 50/50 (or 33/66 on crit) heal can be incredibly useful. Also as was mentioned it allows for SCH stacking groups. The ability in general is NOT for 4man content.

Also the sacrifice fairy ability will need to be seen to judge, the official translation of its effect in the LL digest says it increases magic power which means it might be a really good DPS boost. And we don't know the intricate functions of it like if you are allowed to resummon fairy right away and keep the buff etc or not.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I'd much rather have macros which tell my fairy what to heal between my normal heals. Controlling the fairy is a big part of how SCH plays, if you don't you shouldn't play SCH.

Unless its something rather significant, its not worth it. Honestly. It will drop your HPS way more then help the group.

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Macro'ing pet abilities is fine and all as long as you don't mix said macro with your own heals. That's incredibly bad and worse than people that don't (and frankly you don't need to because they can be hotkeyed like everything else) macro pet heals.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

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I get that.
My question still stands - why?

Why is it better for the tank to have more health rather than less health but shield, for the same total amount?

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Because either way the tank needs to be healed up eventually. It sounds like an oh shit button when the whm/ast is either tied up with the party, or dead. Think of the combo: Emergency Tactics + Adloquium followed up by a normal Adloquium. Bam tons of heals and a shield.

Think of it as saving Mp for the whm? I dk, think about it a bit before throwing it out the door. I am almost certain (positive speculation) that it will be useful in party play somehow or another.

Also, Adloquium provides a timed shield for 30 seconds if I'm not mistaken. So if there is a part of the fight that a party member will not take damage for a bit, it would be more beneficial for said party member to be topped off, rather than to be at half health with a shield that may expire before he takes damage again. Speculation, speculation. hehe

My problem with these changes is that it basically makes all the healers pretty much the same, so what would be the purpose/fun in adding new healers.

If white mage can burst heal and shield why play a scholar?
If Scholar can shield and burst heal why play a white mage?
If Astrologian can burst and shield by stance swapping why play any other healer?

Basically in my opinion they are making the healers super bland; because even tanks are receiving a new/fun ways of tanking with dark knight using MP as their resource.

We need different type of healing categories not the same old stuff we currently have in-game with some different animations. It defeats the purpose of leveling all the healers.

Also it seems they didn't learn from FF11 scholar, in that game they added a mage that could heal and cast damage spells almost on par with black mage and white mage, and guess what happened to them nobody wanted to use them because scholars were superb. Astrologian has the potential of completely replacing white mages and scholars with their stances.

I posted something along the lines of this AST being preferred over in the 'Where does AST fit?" thread, stating that if it is given something in addition to healing, that WHM and SCH don't have, then it may become the preferred healer or at least become a set member of the 2 member raid setup. I mean, as I wrote there, all 3 healers need to be able to heal well enough to keep up a 4 member dungeon group, and well enough to main heal in a raid. Given this, AST may not be as potent in either role as a SCH or WHM, but they will and must be able to main heal both dungeons and raids. Now, throw on the random ability to buff damage, HASTE!!, and such...then it seems to me to be the prime healer as it brings the most to the table and to the party.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Why is it better for the tank to have more health rather than less health but shield, for the same total amount?

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There are game mechanics in the game already which require you to heal a target to full HP, such as the doom effect in Wanderer's Palace HM. To a lesser extent, there's also Siren in Pharos Sirius who has a charm with the same mechanic. The point is, in both of those situations, shields won't help. They need HP heals pure and simple and having a means of buffing your cures is a good way to do that.

My only reservation with it is that it feels like Scholar is stealing White Mage's tricks with this. If it is a stance which can be kept on permanently, Scholar will literally be more powerful than White Mage as they're also addressing the Magic Defense imbalance on Protect. You'd have a job which has a strong healing potential, damage mitigation AND a separate healing pet rolled into one. White Mage's one remaining trick, Regen, seems like an afterthought against that onslaught.

Will either of them hold up against Astrologian though? We'll have to wait and see. I'm still hyped for White Mage if only for the new Holy spell and Stone/Aero III.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

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Yes, they are streamlining healers. With 3 of them, after thinking about it, it is a necessary evil. This is why they are giving Proshell to SCH as well - because if Astro does not have it, WHM would be mandatory just due to Proshell. They don't want ANY job to be mandatory (thus, I am sure that what BRD can do now can be replaced by something from Machinist or Astro). This makes things more -plain-, yes - but there is no way around it.

Deployment Tactics of SCH seems quite powerful tho - might make up with the uselessness of Emergency Tactics (yes, I still believe it will be rather useless, sorry :P)

But most of all, I am sad that they will butcher SCH's abilities' names once again. The original Japanese ones are awesome. The localized ones make absolutely no sense.

Simple just add the "shell" spell to white mage, make it cross-class and make it so that proshell increases the potency instead of provides both effects, by making proshell available to all healers they are basically taking one of the best and main tools of white mage away.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

My only reservation with it is that it feels like Scholar is stealing White Mage's tricks with this.

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In the same way WHM might be "stealing Scholar's tricks" by being able to do more DPS than it used to. Again, they are clearly streamlining healers.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

Simple just add the "shell" spell to white mage, make it cross-class and make it so that proshell increases the potency instead of provides both effects, by making proshell available to all healers they are basically taking one of the best and main tools of white mage away.

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That would still make WHM mandatory in progression raids.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

In the same way WHM might be "stealing Scholar's tricks" by being able to do more DPS than it used to. Again, they are clearly streamlining healers.



That would still make WHM mandatory in progression raids.

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Not really because each healer would bring something different to the raid.
1.) White Mage: Enhanced Protect & Shell
2.) Scholar: Selene
3.) Astrologian: Many Different Enhancements.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

Not really because each healer would bring something different to the raid.
1.) White Mage: Enhanced Protect & Shell
2.) Scholar: Selene
3.) Astrologian: Many Different Enhancements.

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How is Selene different since Astro will be able to use Haste with cards (among other buffs)?
Also, technically, an "Enhanced Protect" would be a perma-shield under another name. If you are taking 90 damage with a WHM protect and 100 damage with a SCH protect, it means that at the end of fight the WHM would have effectively shielded more damage than the SCH, most likely.

We don't know how haste will work, for all we know it could just be auto attack haste.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

We don't know how haste will work, for all we know it could just be auto attack haste.

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Hardly. BLMs are getting Haste as well, I doubt it is for their auto attacks.

I don't get why people think SCH and WHM wont have their unique things still just because SCH are getting more healing tools in the areas they were lacking (especially when paired with another SCH). WHM are getting more DPS tools (and hopefully much better MP management to go with it), more HoT's and optional heals besides Benediction that seemingly will work in Cleric Stance. I didn't hear anything about shields being given to them, just better healing options where they were lacking (while dps'in mainly).

Despite getting some more info and some visuals on AST abilities, actual concrete information is still incredibly lacking and their card buffs are somewhat RNG tied with no info on exactly how long cd the card draw ability has and how long the buffs lasts.
Also changing stance was supposed to not come cheap so it might have a hefty mp cost or a long cd or simply not work in combat, we don't know. Their heals even in Barrier stance or healing stance might not completely mirror SCH/WHM equally and even have their own effects (keep in mind that one of the major WHM traits is insanely MP efficient healing in low mp costs for high potency and Freecure).

They might be evening out some areas which may or may not benefit one healer more than the other (if we just jumped to exaggerated conclusions as is now, WHM is looking really good) but I do wish that they were more consistent. Traited Virus is just as important as traited Protect if not even more important yet it wasn't mentioned being freely given out.

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Originally Posted by desufin

I don't get why people think SCH and WHM wont have their unique things

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From a Scholar's perspective, I can think of the following reasons. What currently makes us unique? Our ability to shield, something that AST can do now, and our ability to DPS, which is something WHM is being equipped to do now with more DPS abilities plus low potency instant cures (Lustrate anyone?). And of course a White Mage is great at healing the entire raid, which AST can do, and now SCH can also do via Emergency Tactics.

This is all speculation, but to an extent I do agree we will keep some uniqueness in the form of SCH fairies, WHM HoTs and AST card buffs; however it does seem like SE is taking the safe route by making them all similar. This is a great move to keep things balanced between the 3 jobs, but it does feel a little underwhelming when other roles are getting such fun changes. And personally I was actually disappointed to see SCH getting more potent AoE heals, that's not our game and I would have much rather preferred more mitigation or pet abilities.

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Originally Posted by desufin

Traited Virus is just as important as traited Protect if not even more important yet it wasn't mentioned being freely given out.

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From a healers perspective I would disagree with it being more important. Its an Arcanist ability, so if anything it should be shared amongst SMN and BLM. Protect being shared makes sense because if it wasn't it puts more strain on parties wanting to go AST/SCH, and so WHM would almost be a necessity for every group. Supervirus is actually one of the things that again makes SCH unique to WHM at the moment, so sharing it out would be rather counter-productive to your argument.

i don't see them taking over in any way other than newness factor

by the notes they've been putting up about scholar so far

a big aoe heal to compliment succor
an ability to transform adloquiem from a 300potency heal and 300/600 potency shield to a 600/900 potency heal which
the ability to basically bane adloquiem and eye for an eye to the whole party
and a sac the fairy to boost your own output

they are going to be able to go into a beastly WHM mode if they want

and it looks like WHM is getting augmented to be a power healer/damage dealer at the same time hybrid too

I just think they are giving us more options if anything, we already have a solid base toolkit, they are just giving us new spells which arent mandatory but helpful. Especially for going above and beyond our role! ^^ SCH DoTs with faerie sacrifice is going to be crazy, so excited with WHM healing while damaging and SCH giving strong barriers out, or WHM abusing divine veil just sounds so amazing.

to arms healers! We have DPS to carry!! XD

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

I just think they are giving us more options if anything, we already have a solid base toolkit, they are just giving us new spells which arent mandatory but helpful.

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I think that's kind of the whole point that's being made here. When every job has a lot of options, it becomes a lot harder for differentiation to occur because they can pretty much do all the same things. Subsequently the healer jobs become more boring because switching from one to the other won't offer much of a change in play-style.

(Of course keeping in mind this is just speculation from the Live Letter info. We still have a lot to find out yet.)

im just happy we get a healing class that isnt pet based or is super boring like whm

so astro does a bit of both scholar and whitemage thats cool

[QUOTE=Remilia_Nightfall;2976075]How is Selene different since Astro will be able to use Haste with cards (among other buffs)?
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Selene is GUARANTEED haste buffs for the whole party on rotating CD. AST buffs are less reliable. Personally I still feel that each healer will be bringing enough. Lemme tally up some thoughts....

WHM- AST has not confirmed having regens means that whispering dawn and WHM are the only hots (regen, medica2, new ground aoe). Sure everyone gets proshell now but WHM still have traited stoneskin. Their aoe dps utility in holy gets even better with new dps skills, and new dps-to-heal skills (perhaps a la disc priest atonement in wow). They still have huge healbombs and mp efficiency with freecure and overcure, and their CDs increasing their own healing output. New instant healing spells of less potency, on top of benediction, gives more mobility than ever before.

SCH- New spell spreading E4E and adlo bubble means you can use the stronger shield of adlo in aoe, instead of succor. New aoe healing spells also to shore up succor and rouse/whispering dawn. New spell to change adlo into a curebomb helps with 2 sch healing comps as well. Traited virus (if you have no SMN) and E4E with shorter cd as well. Selene has reliable haste buffs and Eos has a mdef cd and aoe healing increase cd that stacks with whm cd. The fairy spothealing is also an amazing supplement and at times a mobility/spread healing tool, not to mention keeping people up while having a dps window to toss dots. Sacred soil is still awesome, and sch is still great on MP management. Still unsure as to how the fairy-sacrifice will work. Does it put her summoning on cd, or can you summon another one right away? Though the translation said magic power the effect in the video looks just like an aoe healing spell.

AST- We still don't know much about how they will function healing-wise. Though we hear about the stance switch we don't know much about the actual spell effects or how often they will be able to switch. The interviews generally have phrased that one would want to use barrier stance with a whm and healer stance with a sch, but perhaps healer stance and whm could work well (2 whm can stack hots now, but 2 sch cannot stack shields. who knows?) Are their barrier an absorption effect like adlo, or a reduction effect like sacred soil, would they stack with sch? we don't know. Also the randomness of the card buffs, while they are sure to be nice buffs are unreliable, not to mention that there sounds to be at least 3 actions associated with their use. I feel that this complexity may turn people away from the class, much like some healers play whm because they don't feel like managing a fairy. Also we know nothing of their dps capabilities, or how viable it will be for them to dps in downtime due to mp constraints. We also don't know what cross class actions they will have, though we can assume cnj for protect (they are reforming proshell after all) and cleric stance. But not sure if they will get can or thm for the other set- giving up e4e/virus or swiftcast/surecast.

In conclusion, I feel that each of the three healers will probably be bringing enough to the table not to be unwanted, or that stacking two of one healer would be optimal. Sure healer stacking could be viable, it already is, but it's not the most optimal which seems to be the concern.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

From a healers perspective I would disagree with it being more important. Its an Arcanist ability, so if anything it should be shared amongst SMN and BLM. Protect being shared makes sense because if it wasn't it puts more strain on parties wanting to go AST/SCH, and so WHM would almost be a necessity for every group. Supervirus is actually one of the things that again makes SCH unique to WHM at the moment, so sharing it out would be rather counter-productive to your argument.

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How can you possibly think Supervirus is less important than Proshell? If you have done BCoB/SCoB/FCoB before they each respectively got nerfed/echo you would know just what a gigantic impact to boss damage Supervirus has and done practically anything as a SCH to know what little impact Proshell has in comparison (not to mention SCH has access to Fey Covenant to use for the big aoe's reliably enough). Giving AST a similar skill wouldn't have been too much of a stretch but no, they took the easy way out and made Proshell baseline which isn't a big deal per say but it does drop WHM desirability a fair bit and while Supervirus stays SCH exclusive among healers, it will be unbalanced.
Saying DPS (BLM/SMN) should have it instead falls flat because neither are a must in a standard group while at least one healer pretty much is and the impact Supervirus has is as said, huge enough to warrant to give it to all 3 healers (not the reduced CD, just the effect).

Haste has been in game for a long time, its called fey light and fey glow. Rip sch, who has been giving haste since 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

although the thought of "sacrificing" Eos for more potent cures makes me feel sad :<

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Yes. That is weird. The first thing that I got in my head was: demon lock?

Thats not what a Scholar is standing for.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Yes. That is weird. The first thing that I got in my head was: demon lock?

Thats not what a Scholar is standing for.

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Well it is called 'dissipate', not sacrifice or anything. It seems more like Lily is retreating to the soulstone by giving her aether to you or something along those lines, flavor-wise. Not so much killing her >:/

You do realize that when it says Haste, it means more spell/skill speed?

Selene has been doing that for a long time.

Besides, I doubt AST can manage as much heal as a full WHM or make a defensive barrier as good as an SCH.

AST has the ability to do both but I doubt it has the same potency. What makes AST unique is the extra bonuses you get from the cards, augmenting your spells in a certain way.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I would of rather had something like an AOE emergency off-gcd no mana heal with a 2-3 minute cooldown that fully heals all party and raid members around you.

Or a shield that gives you shielding based off how much max HP you've lost. That would of been a cool mechanic, so if you have 10% of your life left 90% of the life you don't have turns into a shield. Which gives you time to bring everyone back up.

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So basically a LB every 2-3 min? That sounds slightly broken on either variation

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Originally Posted by desufin

How can you possibly think Supervirus is less important than Proshell?

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Yes, I understand it is a very important ability, T11 been there, done that. However it's still an ability/trait that is learnt as an Arcanist (DPS class), and is directly inflicted on the enemy. So I personally think it's more suited to be shared among casters. Also note that I said 'from a healers perspective'. And also it does not fall flat being on casters, I have yet to see a single coil static group that does not have at least one caster.

As for Proshell being on all healers, I think it's way too early for you to claim that it makes WHM less desirable. WHM gets more DPS abilities, an instant cure (assuming like Lustrate) meaning they can emergency heal while DPSing, as well as another HoT in the form of a bubble AoE. Each healer job is getting more tools, so for WHM to have been the only healer to keep Proshell would have been completely unfair. Also, Proshell does not have 'little' impact. It's a magic defense buff that will last an entire fight, the amount of mitigation that brings to the table alone is immense.

The way I see it, we still have 50 levels worth of job and class skills. Granted, this is my first MMO to see through to an expansion, but are the few new abilities really projected to completely change how each class plays? Or is it the usual hubbub of forum drama here. Unless one class becomes terribly underpowered to where it can't compete with the others, I'm sure I'll find myself swapping between all three, and I have no doubt SE will move to balance things out if an issue arises.

It's not as though either class is losing significant abilities, I doubt SCH or AST will be able to compete with WHM's raw healing throughput with Divine Seal, PoM, and high potency heals. Scholar will still have mitigation, DoT's that never miss, and a pocket healer. AST, as far as I know, is anyone's best guess. Not to mention, we have no idea about what kind of content we will be faced with. Perhaps healer abilities are being overlapped slightly because they plan on taxing more of our toolkit. Each healer will need to be able to function well in light party content, and that may mean WHM needs to mitigate more, and SCH may need to burst heal more. We just don't know, and everyone's eager to throw everyone else to the wayside instead of wait with baited breath and hope that every healer is awesome.