Are the Twelve Primals too?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

If only there were some larger source of efficient aether-convertible energy we could tap into... Gee, I really wish there was something like that standing around real obvious-like... But there's just nothing that convenient, is there? Shame.

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<Cough> Cerulium <Cough> Ah man, these allergies I tell ya.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

<Cough> Cerulium <Cough> Ah man, these allergies I tell ya.

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'Cause you see, I seem to recall an even more efficient, darn-near-limitless source that we just locked away for some silly reason or another... Gosh, but with so many lives on the line, I sure hope some better use will come to light...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

'Cause you see, I seem to recall an even more efficient, darn-near-limitless source that we just locked away for some silly reason or another... Gosh, but with so many lives on the line, I sure hope some better use will come to light...

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Um....Hmm.... A source we just locked away....hmmmm.....could it be that thing in..... but didn't that one guy...... Nah it couldn't possibly be. That's just loony.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

'Cause you see, I seem to recall an even more efficient, darn-near-limitless source that we just locked away for some silly reason or another... Gosh, but with so many lives on the line, I sure hope some better use will come to light...

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I think I know what you're referring to, and given the way Rev Toll has gradually been constructed into a fortress-city over the course of the 2.x patches I'm willing to bet Mor Dhona will be seeing a large battle of some kind that will give us a chance to tap into that source.

As for the OP's questions on the Twelve. They can be summoned as primals, yes, but whether they really existed (or still exist) as non-primal entities is another matter entirely. My personal opinion at this point is that the Twelve aren't gods but rather vastly exaggerated legends based on real (though potentially immortal) people. There have been a lot of little hints in that direction throughout the game so far, one of the most notable being at the end of the FSH quests regarding how legends tend to get out of hand.

There's something important in the Heavens above Eorzea though. The Moogles claim to originate from there, where they lived with the Twelve, and several other quests have been pointing in that direction (such as the Ixali obsession with returning to the floating continent of Ayatlan). If you look over the Heavensward concept art as well there are several distinct architectural styles; we know which ones are the new beast tribes and the Dravanians, we know which are the Sharlayan ruins, we know which are the Allagan ruins, and some appear to be Ishgardian in origin. There is one distinctly 'heavenly' architectural style that we do not know yet though and in the last live letter the devs commented that these ruins in the sky would be part of the story. I think we may start to discover something of the truth of the Twelve in this expansion.

This is a very difficult topic to answer. Some of the Primals have had very different summoning methods from the 'traditional' way. Shiva and Good King Moogle Mog are the two that come to mind. It's hard to say if the Twelve are any different from primals, or if they are true deities who can just appear whenever they want. The only we'll know for sure is if SE decides to have one of the Twelve show up to help us out for some reason, or we have to summon them like a primal for help. If they're not truly deities, and they're no different than primals, then it's a VERY bad idea to try and summon them. If we did try to summon them like primals, I doubt they'd be the benevolent beings they're portrayed as. So until SE gives us more details on what the Twelve might be, we're pretty much in the dark.

What if the twelve were really hydalen she does say she's all made one so the twelve could be different aspects of her. I remember after the blessing gets sealed minfilia says that the treaty with Midgardsormr was with one of the twelve however he said the covenant was with hydalen (I need to learn how to spell her name).

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Originally Posted by Rannie

What if the twelve were really hydalen she does say she's all made one so the twelve could be different aspects of her. I remember after the blessing gets sealed minfilia says that the treaty with Midgardsormr was with one of the twelve however he said the covenant was with hydalen (I need to learn how to spell her name).

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This is actually one of many theories we played with some time ago. But without further information, everything built to answer this question was a house of cards waiting for the slightest gust of wind.

Eh I guess my beliefs (real life ones religious ones. Don't worry I won't go into it. ) tend to make the house of cards a bit stronger but as long as its not thrown off the burner completely...

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Originally Posted by Rannie

as long as its not thrown off the burner completely...

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Let' hope not!

There are a couple different intertwining, interfering questions here. Allow me to try to disentangle.

1. There is no evidence that any "primal" must be based on a real thing that once existed. For example, King Mog is explicitly stated to be a moogle myth (which may or may not be true). On the other hand, Shiva is explicitly stated to be a real person, but it's clearly not necessary for this to be the case for something to be summoned as a primal. The other beastmen primals have ambiguous myth-like origins (yadda yadda Garuda, god of snakes yadda yadda)
2. There is no conclusive evidence that any particular instance or incarnation of a primal represents a distinct "entity". That is, when Ifrit is slain and summoned again, did the same "ball of aether" from the aetherial plane get retrieved? Is there a quantity of aether within the aetherial plane that is specifically marked "FOR IFRIT USE ONLY"? Does this aether have personal memories? Some primals exhibit behavior that implies that they have memories but that could possibly be attributed to memories imbued by the summoner(s).
3. Regardless of the above points, did there exist historical humans or literal gods named Rhalgr, Halone, etc. once upon a time in the distant past? If they were humans, it's possible that the legends attributed to them are tales that evolved and were passed down via oral tradition. If they were literal gods with superhuman powers, then the Twelve represent a new type of existence that has not been shown before in this fictional world. It's also possible that they never existed at all and their stories were spun from whole cloth by ancient peoples.
4. Regardless of the above point, if the enlightened races today prayed to their mental conception of the Twelve along with a large quantity of crystals, the result would literally be a primal incarnation of the Twelve (as the Ascians tried to encouraged the Ala Mhigans to do with Rhalgr). Whether this primal incarnation is connected to a distinct aetherial entity in the aetherstream or a historical personage is an open question (see points #1 and #2). But the result would definitely be a primal, if the summoning was successful.
5. Lastly as an aside, the "Twelve" summoned at the Battle of Carteneau were not actually primal versions of the Twelve. Louisoix specifically attempted to draw upon "a fraction of the Twelve's power" (whether or not they actually exist) to stop Dalamud. So those weren't primals either. It's unclear what the vision of crystalline spears that Louisoix saw before he turned into Phoenix actually was. The Phoenix that Louisoix turned into was definitely a primal, but it doesn't actually matter if the concept of "Phoenix" existed before for Phoenix to be summoned.

So to sum up, the "real Twelve" were not primals (if they exist), just as the "real Shiva" was not a primal. A primal is just something that has been summoned by thoughts and prayer. If someone were to "summon the Twelve", it would be a primal.

But we know something. The Ascians god, Zodiark, from what we have seen so far this summoning( if it is that what the ascians are tring to do) needs something really different than a common primals summoning, ortherwise he would already being summoned.

When it comes to Soul Crystals

A Towa Cant can somehow temporarily revive himself and help the character

Same (kinda) with the DRG soul stone, but to a lesser degree.

To an even lesser extent the Alchemist reviving his dead lover temporarily.

So if A Towa Cant can make himself appear, then perhaps there is some truth in Halone somehow appearing to the Ishgardians?

A-Towa-Cant was just a Padjal who lived a few decades ago. He's not a god like Halone is supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

A-Towa-Cant was just a Padjal who lived a few decades ago. He's not a god like Halone is supposed to be.

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Thus giving credit to the idea that there is some sort of life stream. A-Towa-Cant was an indisputably mortal being. Shiva was Human (Or Elzen rather) during her life, and at some point in history Bahamut and Odin were mortal beings with physical bodies as well.

I think the big thing is that Louisoux himself still exists in his mortal incarnation in spirit despite giving up his corporeal body to become the Primal Phoenix. Perhaps all Primals, Eikons, Deities, etc, were physical beings with corporeal forms at one point and their spirits are "Summoned" into a new God Like corporeal form via the Summoning Ritual. (I personally refuse to believe that the Ascians invented it as much as spread the word about it)

So if Haldrith's and A-Towa-Cant's spirits can manifest using the Soul Crystals (Note that they are indeed crystals) and Louisoux continues to exist via his new Aetherial form Phoenix, then it's very likely that the Twelve, Primals, and any thing else that the Garleans have dubbed "Eikon" are spirits of some sort in the Aetherial Plain given a form via summoning but other wise possessing no physical form of their own. It also seemed to be hinted by Uriange that the Ascians are stuck somewhere between the two phases being neither dead not truly alive.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

A-Towa-Cant was just a Padjal who lived a few decades ago. He's not a god like Halone is supposed to be.

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Which is exactly my question. He was just a mere mortal who helped when needed. But what about a supposed god?

Ultimately, it's pure speculation

Hmm. . .with the difference that none of the Eikons we've seen bear much resemblance to any known historical figures, with the exceptions of Louisoix and possibly Bahamut. Even Shiva, known to be based on an Elezen woman of the last millennium and inhabiting the body of an Elezen still alive, becomes something of a caricature. Odin, who may once have been a man, is now the Eikon Zantetsuken, which tempers any who wield it. Leviathan may have been based on a sea serpent (indeed, sea serpents are often confused for him), but there are enough differences to distinguish the two.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that even if someone were to summon the Twelve, they'd be far, far removed from even the appearance of the mortals their myths may have been based on. Whereas A-Towa-Cant seems to be himself upon his manifestation.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Hmm. . .with the difference that none of the Eikons we've seen bear much resemblance to any known historical figures, with the exceptions of Louisoix and possibly Bahamut. Even Shiva, known to be based on an Elezen woman of the last millennium and inhabiting the body of an Elezen still alive, becomes something of a caricature. Odin, who may once have been a man, is now the Eikon Zantetsuken, which tempers any who wield it. Leviathan may have been based on a sea serpent (indeed, sea serpents are often confused for him), but there are enough differences to distinguish the two.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that even if someone were to summon the Twelve, they'd be far, far removed from even the appearance of the mortals their myths may have been based on. Whereas A-Towa-Cant seems to be himself upon his manifestation.

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There in lies the difference. Using his link to The White Mage Crystal, A-Towa calls Himself from the aether where as when the beast tribes summon primals they are summoning their Gods in a Warrior form to fight in their name.
Lets say I was the first to summon ifrit in 10,000 years but I just wanted a sage like being to explain things so war would be avoided. Then Ul'dah kicks in the door, kills half of every one, and leave the place in ruins for no good reason. Then when I summon him again I'm not thinking "We'll try being peaceful again" it'll be "Ifrit Great Infernal God of Death! Come forth and burn these heathens and all who side with them to ashes!!!" Then instead of a semi normal form he come this time as a Giant Lizard Monster that, quite successfully, lays waste to every thing in it's path. Thus we get a much more demonic and beast like appearance. Saint Shiva is much the same on that account since she wasn't summoned as a benevolent peace seeker (Like she probably was as a human) she was brought forth as a Warrior Goddess to strike down the Dravanian Sympathisers' persecutors.

But with A-Towa and (Most likely) Haldrith using the Crystal's Memories of them as a Catalyst and your Aether/Corporeal Body (A-Towa being similar to ifrit's Summoning and Haldrith to Shiva's) to call their spirits from the lifestream/Aetherial realm to come forth and take up arms once more in YOUR name.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

But with A-Towa and (Most likely) Haldrith using the Crystal's Memories of them as a Catalyst and your Aether/Corporeal Body (A-Towa being similar to ifrit's Summoning and Haldrith to Shiva's) to call their spirits from the lifestream/Aetherial realm to come forth and take up arms once more in YOUR name.

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So, taking the idea and running with it. . .

Anyone summoned by the will of another will never truly be that person (another's sense of your being will never be the same as your sense of yourself). In your example, neither Ifrit is going to be the "true" Ifrit, because both have been colored by the summoner. But turning that around, we also have no way (barring living contemporaries) to verify that one who summons themself is who they say they are. That is, even if there was a woman upon whom Halone was based, were she to manifest herself she would no more recognize Halone as herself than we would recognize her as Halone.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

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Basically thats the general idea. With Louisoux and A-Towa being reasonable exception as both are still within living memory so they could be verified.

Louisoux's death was a near 5 years prior and A-Towa's death was only a few decades old. Haldrith would be simmiler to Shiva due to his "Legend" status as there's no one left alive who's ever seen them in person.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Which is exactly my question. He was just a mere mortal who helped when needed. But what about a supposed god?

Ultimately, it's pure speculation

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That because a God is only something you name as such.
Ask yourself, what is a god, and I don't think you can find a fix definition.


In Eorzea things called as gods can be two things :
-Eikon/Primal : spirit of a dead brought back through a summoning ritual giving them a body
-Some beings that existed before the first umbral era and disappeared from Hydealyn after the 1st umbral Era ( except Hydealyn ) of course the seconds can be the first too.

Although for the spirit linked to job crystal I think there are two possibilities, either a part or and echo of their soul remain in the job crystal ( that would explain where you get your skills from ) and that's what these spirit are, or they are still connected through the job crystal and can appear if some requirement are completed ( maybe having the echo is part of this ).

As for the Alchemist quest I think it was some kind of modified summoning, it didn't need a body but the spirit was called back thanks to an item dear to the dead woman. It wasn't complete so that's why she couldn't stay long, it was more necromancy ( bring back the soul in the body ) than summoning (call the soul and give it a body of aether ).

The soulstones from job quests are highly reminiscent of the zodiac brave stones from FFtactics. Later retconned as Auracite, they are correlated with the 12(13) zodiac braves, but also with the 12(13) lucavi(demons).

12 is a big number in FFXIV. There are 12 zodiac signs,12 atmas, "The Twelve" deities.
There is a 13th Zodiac Sign, Ophiuchus aka Serpentarius. In FFT when fighting the Lucavi of that wielded 13th Zodiac Stone, he used an ultimate summon spell on you called "Zodiac", later retconned in FFT/FF12 as "Zodiark".
There are 10 jobs right now...3 being added in 3.0, making 13.

I think the 10 soulstones we have now for each of the 10 jobs, plus the 3 upcoming ones making 13 will be the stones which hold the souls of the zodiac braves and by extension the 12 or whatever. For example, there's one of the 12 whom is aligned with wind, I forgot her name, the navigator or something, she wields a spear. Probably aligned with the DRG soulstone as DRGs are associated with wind.

I think the underlying THEME of FFXIV and gods/primals is that "you shouldn't rely on gods to meddle in mortal affairs". it's been kind of a theme of FF series in general and it holds true for this iteration as well. Summoning gods during times of desperation always complicates matters because gods have their own agenda and are often cited as using/manipulating mortals to obtain higher power. Most of the Primals in FFXI seem benevolent to their summoners, but in reality they simply seek power and usually have plans to become 'the one true god' or at least that was Garuda's goal. I think the general consensus is all primals are bad, all beings come to pray and have faith in these gods to deliver them from hardships instead of using their own powers, and in doing so, end up doing more harm to the planet. There's tons of allegories here for real life, how humans have long relied on religion and belief in the supernatural to handle very real and very natural problems.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I think the 10 soulstones we have now for each of the 10 jobs, plus the 3 upcoming ones making 13 will be the stones which hold the souls of the zodiac braves and by extension the 12 or whatever. For example, there's one of the 12 whom is aligned with wind, I forgot her name, the navigator or something, she wields a spear. Probably aligned with the DRG soulstone as DRGs are associated with wind.

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Well, there are a couple of problems with this. For starters, the new jobs in Heavensward are unlikely to have soulstones, for one simple reason: What would happen if you took your Soulstone OFF? These jobs have no classes, so there's nothing to revert to. But you're still holding the weapon for that job, so you can't default to any other job or class. It'd just be a mess to worry about, and so I doubt SE will worry about it. They'll take the easy way out and just make these jobs not require a Soulstone.

Secondly, even if we did have soulstones for these jobs, I can guarantee you these will not be the last three jobs to be added to FFXIV, at least not unless they plan on shutting the game down absurdly early in its lifetime. So, how do jobs 14 through 1000 fit into the the 12 (13) Zodiac signs?

The 12(13) braves/demons thing is interesting, but I very much doubt that the job system will be in any way connected to it.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Well, there are a couple of problems with this. For starters, the new jobs in Heavensward are unlikely to have soulstones, for one simple reason: What would happen if you took your Soulstone OFF? These jobs have no classes, so there's nothing to revert to. But you're still holding the weapon for that job, so you can't default to any other job or class. It'd just be a mess to worry about, and so I doubt SE will worry about it. They'll take the easy way out and just make these jobs not require a Soulstone.

Secondly, even if we did have soulstones for these jobs, I can guarantee you these will not be the last three jobs to be added to FFXIV, at least not unless they plan on shutting the game down absurdly early in its lifetime. So, how do jobs 14 through 1000 fit into the the 12 (13) Zodiac signs?

The 12(13) braves/demons thing is interesting, but I very much doubt that the job system will be in any way connected to it.

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Well, I agree with the second point. It's unlikely they'll tie the number of jobs into the story simply because I'm pretty sure they're going to add a lot more.

On the first point, I don't agree. I think a Soulstone is part of what it means to be a Job and I don't think they'll not include it.
It wouldn't be a mess, they can just have it the same as trying to take off your weapon. You can't. You can only switch weapons. It would be simple to not let you unequip the Soulstone while you're one of those Jobs.

one thing most forget is then when you count the twelve there are actually thirteen Nhal'Thal the brothers or the merchants, its plural, so there is actually thirteen gods but they are both counted togeaver :3

13 gods and hydalyn making 14 final fantasy 14 mystery resolved i am super simple right now

oh yeah almost forgot they showed 12 knights of legend in ishgard

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

That's one of the bigger questions in the game (well, more specifically, if the Twelve are independently real). From Gaius van Baelsar to Louisoix to the Ascians themselves, everyone seems convinced that anything that comes out of a summoning is going to be an aether-sucking primal(-like entity).

But does something exist? Are there Twelve true gods? Ascended mortals? Mortals that history remembers inaccurately? We're not sure yet.

We can be pretty confident that summoning them is a bad idea, though.

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I can't believe you're still here.

Anyway, seeing as Louisoix did have us pray to the 12 at the end of 1.0 for their aid, as I'm sure you remember, and we did see some evidence of Louisoix using their power to contain Bahamut, I think it's safe to say that something of them does exist. Something of them must be real, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are all powerful, or even as powerful as a primal.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

There are a couple different intertwining, interfering questions here. Allow me to try to disentangle.

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This was a great post, and as far as the over arching argument about Primals, this is one of the better explanations I've seen so far, and I fully agree with what you are saying.

To anybody else reading this, if you missed that post, and are still looking for info on any primal, re read what was said there.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

But does something exist? Are there Twelve true gods? Ascended mortals? Mortals that history remembers inaccurately? We're not sure yet.

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

I think it's safe to say that something of them does exist.

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Moose is just pointing out some unanswered metaphysical questions. I agree with your assumptions, however, I also don't think anything needed to be there before hand, so it's possible they are fictional. . .

Based on Unukalhai's statement regarding the Warring Triad and Dark Divinity, I'm now inclined to consider the Twelve to be eikons rather than primals.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Based on Unukalhai's statement regarding the Warring Triad and Dark Divinity, I'm now inclined to consider the Twelve to be eikons rather than primals.

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I don't think we can say for sure what they are yet, since we don't have any physical manifestations of them (yet). They definitely have the potential to become Primals, but considering Eikons seem to be physically manifested (even if sealed away in some sort of prison) unless we find the Twelve somewhere in the world, I'm going with them just being "ideas" (lack of a better word) that people flock to. That's just the current "form" of the Twelve, mind you, I like the theory that they were originally twelve heroes (the Archons, perhaps?) of Allag that became worshiped after the earthquake.

IMO this is like in the graphic novel Sandman and in The Shintoism, "gods" are everything worshiped by someone, so All primal are essentialy god,but like was said on MSQ what the people summon is not the true god, just the aspect of what they want from the god.
Ifrit,Garuda and Titan = Rage
Ramuh = Protect
Shiva = Kind of "Protect"
The King Thordan = Power

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Originally Posted by Rashammel

IMO this is like in the graphic novel Sandman and in The Shintoism, "gods" are everything worshiped by someone, so All primal are essentialy god,but like was said on MSQ what the people summon is not the true god, just the aspect of what they want from the god.
Ifrit,Garuda and Titan = Rage
Ramuh = Protect
Shiva = Kind of "Protect"
The King Thordan = Power

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Yea, it seems to be they are worship a character from folklore turned real by aether. Not sure if they have the base desire of the deity though or if it's desire is based purely on the "summoner".
Ifrit desired more thralls
Titan to drive man out of the mountains
Garuda was to destroy everything
King Mog was devour
Leviathan was to drive man out of the sea
Ramuh was solitude
Shiva was the truth about dragons and man
Bahamut was mad rage
Ravana was conquest
Bismark was to devour
Thordan was power

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Originally Posted by Rashammel

IMO this is like in the graphic novel Sandman and in The Shintoism, "gods" are everything worshiped by someone, so All primal are essentialy god,but like was said on MSQ what the people summon is not the true god, just the aspect of what they want from the god.
Ifrit,Garuda and Titan = Rage
Ramuh = Protect
Shiva = Kind of "Protect"
The King Thordan = Power

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I'll disagree with the "aspects" you've chosen.

Garuda is fleeting like the wind; insane.
Ifrit is insecure, power-hungry, like fire.
Titan is a father who is protecting his children, the earth.
Ramuh is the judge, quick and decisive like lightning.
Leviathan is water, a powerful fluid force to protect and destroy.
Ravana is conquest.
Bismark is hunger.
Shiva is the desire for peace and reconciliation.
Good King Moggle Mog XII would be fear, and the desire to be safe.
Thordan is arrogance in power, and I'll throw Enkidu in as loyalty.
EDIT: Forgot Bahamut, who is the rage of a conquered people, and Phoenix, the hope for a better tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Based on Unukalhai's statement regarding the Warring Triad and Dark Divinity, I'm now inclined to consider the Twelve to be eikons rather than primals.

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Primals have no base existence outside the Ascian summoning ritual. So in that the 12 exist they aren't primals. Of course this also means there might in fact be True variants of Primals(We know for example there was a real Shiva and Bahamut)

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Originally Posted by jomoru

Primals have no base existence outside the Ascian summoning ritual. So in that the 12 exist they aren't primals. Of course this also means there might in fact be True variants of Primals(We know for example there was a real Shiva and Bahamut)

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I believe Zohar was referring to the Allagan use of Eikon, which means warring god if the Japanese translation is any indication. As opposed to the Garlean usage of Eikon, which is simply their term for any Primal. Eikons to the Allagans came from another world and could not be defeated in any permanence (Odin, for example, and the Warring Triad, both of whom had to be trapped); they simply kept showing up over and over.

Here is something to ponder. We know the Ascian are the ones who taught the Allagan to summon Bahamut and imprison him in Dalamud. We also know that Louisoix tried to imprison Bahamut in the same way using the power of the Twelve. So the real question is, who or what are the Twelve?

As for the primals, and this is all conjecture, I believe they are based real figures from folklore.

Ifrit was most likely a spiritual leader of the Amalj'aa.
Titan was a great leader and protector of a the mountain.
Garuda was bloodlust warrior of the Ixali.
Levithan was Great Clutch Father who tamed the seas for his Sahagin children.
Ramuh was a wise hermit of the Twelve Woods who guided the slyph.
Shiva well was Saint Shiv.
Good King Mog was the 12th Moggle Mog.
Bahamut was Bahamut.
Ravana was a Gnath conqueror.
Bismark was Vanu Vanu who lead the tribe to Sea of Clouds.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Good King Mog was the first Moggle Mog.

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The Primal Good King Moggle Mog XII is based on a moogle chieftain (Moggle Mog XII) from the Churning Mists who aided the future Twelveswood Moogles in getting to the world below after disaster struck their home...

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Originally Posted by PArcher

The Primal Good King Moggle Mog XII is based on a moogle chieftain (Moggle Mog XII) from the Churning Mists who aided the future Twelveswood Moogles in getting to the world below after disaster struck their home...

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Fixed for you. He was the 12th Moggle Mog in the line

Well I would only actually consider the 12 primals if people would actually "physically" summon them with aether like all of the other ones we have seen, since that seems to be the current definition of a primal.

For example, Ifrit himself wouldnt be a primal, but the form of Ifrit summoned by the Amalj'aa is a primal

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Fixed for you. He was the 12th Moggle Mog in the line

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Not really, the good king moggle mog was actually just the chief of the mogs that remained in the sky, his real name was mogglog.