PC vs. PS4 limitations

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Originally Posted by balte049

I would like to see Square stop supporting the PS3 next year. It's very old hardware is holding the game back for the PS4 and PC players.

It wouldn't be right to drop it this year, give people a little more time to get a PS4, then drop it.

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I believe there was already mention that they would stop supporting when they release 4.0 (ie. expansion after Heavensward.)

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Originally Posted by Laraul

If it we're targeted at the PS3 then there would be no mouse/keyboard mode or hotbars, all which the PS3 version lack. If you have ANY proof that can backup your claim though, please share it with us.

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Allow me to first clarify. I did not mean built around PS3 as the MAiN platform, I mean the game is tuned around being able to be run by the PS3 somewhat smoothly. Every development choice has to be made around the limiting factor of the PS3. PS3 limitations has been a call out on the forums since launch but the earliest i can recall clearly is back in February of 2014 when Yoshi P had an interview with "Game Jouhou" He cited his fears that as development continued, he was worried that he'd have to cut out features due to the tech level of the PS3. In an interview after that, he commented on the awful memory of the PS3 and why we aren't even allowed TP bars. He's gone on record several times stating that as long as the PS3 fanbase is large enough, the game will continue to not add in larger scale changes in favor of keeping with the average pace of the PS3 hardware. So, as of now, until the PS3 is dropped, the game will always revolve around being able to have PS3 players experience the game at an acceptable level

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Originally Posted by radioactive_lego

Troll post. Just put the "PC master race" jpg up and move on. This game could be 8-bit, i'd play it.

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I'll take troll post above blind fanboism any day.

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Originally Posted by FlowRinzai

Graphically it may look the the same, but the limitations are not minimal. I have it for both, and the PS4 does not perform that well. Whenever I'm in crowded areas, the FPS is in the 20-30s. During Hunts sometimes the FPS goes down to the single digits when there are a lot of people. Frontlines the performance isn't great either. I gave up and am back to playing on my PC now

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Just your connection, has and still works beautiful on my PS4

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Originally Posted by SummerSkye

I was just wondering if the people playing on consoles are missing out on just how amazing this game looks with everything on max? Is this true that the PS4 is that limited? Just curious.

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Without anything else to compare it to, I would say I'm not missing out on anything. No idea what I'm getting for FPS, but my TV is the limitation anyways not the PS4. TV is only a 60hz so it won't do anything over 60FPS anyways. I also doubt these old tired eyes would see a difference between 60 and 80 or even 100 FPS anyways. It would look all the same to me.

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Originally Posted by Daranion

Allow me to first clarify. I did not mean built around PS3 as the MAiN platform, I mean the game is tuned around being able to be run by the PS3 somewhat smoothly. Every development choice has to be made around the limiting factor of the PS3. PS3 limitations has been a call out on the forums since launch but the earliest i can recall clearly is back in February of 2014 when Yoshi P had an interview with "Game Jouhou" He cited his fears that as development continued, he was worried that he'd have to cut out features due to the tech level of the PS3. In an interview after that, he commented on the awful memory of the PS3 and why we aren't even allowed TP bars. He's gone on record several times stating that as long as the PS3 fanbase is large enough, the game will continue to not add in larger scale changes in favor of keeping with the average pace of the PS3 hardware. So, as of now, until the PS3 is dropped, the game will always revolve around being able to have PS3 players experience the game at an acceptable level

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Actually this is what he said about TP bars...

Source

PS4 - can't be upgraded
PC - can. Forever

I just got a PS4 which is leaps and bounds ahead of playing on a PS3. Cmon PC's Please stop bashing my PS4. haven't I paid enough to play this awesome game I love soooo much

An article on the graphical comparison of the PC and PS4 versions.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

PS4 - can't be upgraded
PC - can. Forever

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lol, kinda, as long as they don't keep switching the pins on you, :P lol

Related to the topic: There is most definitely a difference from ps4 to PC, the ps4 looks pretty darned good though and runs pretty darned good, but the input lag and frame drops (I'm looking at you 33,24 Coerthas while spinning the camera around) after coming from PC is just too much for me to bare, in anything except casual content.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

lol, kinda, as long as they don't keep switching the pins on you, :P lol

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That does beg the question.
If you replace the motherboard, is it the same computer?

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Originally Posted by Gramul

That does beg the question.
If you replace the motherboard, is it the same computer?

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I would say not, since sometimes it requires a reinstall of the OS and different ram, different fitting coolers, case... etc.. Seems like you can upgrade anything else , but when it is the motherboard, it's like this huge ordeal.

I'll say this though, there is nothing like that feeling you get when you get it all assembled and that smell that comes out with fresh parts warming up, exciting stuff. Then it hits you, drivers... oh god all the drivers and software to installs.

Lol but that is my opinion. Anyway I digress.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

I'll say this though, there is nothing like that feeling you get when you get it all assembled and that smell that comes out with fresh parts warming up, exciting stuff. Then it hits you, drivers... oh god all the drivers and software to installs.

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This is a worksafe board mam.

I wish they'd drop consoles entirely... In my opinion MMORPGs don't belong on consoles at all. This game is being held back graphically, and data wise as well. Why the heck do you think they can't do things like give us more housing plots yet, or increase bag storage? Texture wise the game is... Not great. I realize they didn't want to go overboard on graphics because that was a large part of what was wrong with 1.0, but I think they went back too far on it. It's like they went too far on the other spectrum.

I realize people with consoles may get offended by this post, but consoles just aren't able to handle all that an MMORPG can do, and FFXIV is held back by it to an extant. Least we'll get the Directx 11 upgrade with the coming expansion...

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Originally Posted by Elmeron

Why the heck do you think they can't do things like give us more housing plots yet, or increase bag storage?

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I thought they said this was server side, not a console restriction. I think they should just separate us. Let console users play with other console players and PC play with themselves
PS4 probably outperforms more than half the PC's people are using to play this game anyways.

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Originally Posted by Elmeron

I wish they'd drop consoles entirely... In my opinion MMORPGs don't belong on consoles at all. This game is being held back graphically, and data wise as well.

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3 things;

First, no console support would kill this game almost overnight.
Second,with the 8GB of GDDR5 memory PS4 has, there is no argument that you can make that says PS4 holds it back data wise at all.
Third, the GPU in the PS4 isn't exactly high end for dedicated gaming rigs, but it's better than average for consumer PCs in general.

Not to mention, that the PS4 is basically a PC architecture optimized for gaming console use, making it more of a gaming rig 'lite' than anything else. PS4's GPU has the advantage of tighter integration with the rest of the system and a more optimized architecture for gaming instead of running Windows unlike a PC.

If you can scale detail and resolution in a game for differing classes of gaming PC hardware, there is absolutely no reason why that cannot be done with PS4. I can think of no way that PS4 could be accused of holding back the game any more than consumer PCs and low-mid range gaming PCs can.

Oh, and regarding Coerthas and frame rates, a lot of PC players have the same issues, the problem is that the game client either needs it's draw distance capped to prevent drops in frame rate, or it needs to stop rendering everything around the character, even though it's not currently in view. this is a problem shared by many people, not just console based players.

Regarding housing...

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

I thought they said this was server side, not a console restriction.

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That is in fact what they have said, it is server side, not client.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

I think they should just separate us. Let console users play with other console players and PC play with themselves

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I see what you did there.... ;)

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

PS4 probably outperforms more than half the PC's people are using to play this game anyways.

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Segregating console and PC players would be counter productive to the game's future, not to mention that people haven't the slighted clue whether a person is playing on PS4 with a DS4, or on PC with a 3rd party controller.

The thing with PC scaling is that developers can, with more ease, raise the requirements of a game without so much backlash/negative effects. When you have to support a console alongside a PC platform, then there comes a point where that console's specs, which are locked in, make it so that you can't feasibly make the game any better, technically speaking and low-end/mid-ranged PC's are no longer the culprit.

With PC's, there's always the sense of freedom; this includes hardware scaling, software planning and hardware extensions.

With consoles, no matter what innovation (touch screen, motion control, etc.) the console has, it will inevitably lead to limitations of some sort further down the line.

Low-end and mid-ranged PC/laptops do limit games, yes, but assuming those games are PC-only, this is something that can be easily rectified compared to that of a cross-platform environment-based game involving consoles.

PC games can always be optimized to run no matter what; the argument that low-end/mid-ranged PC's hold back games is a bit base, because the game will be produced, developed and released regardless of an individual's PC specs. You either meet the requirements or you don't. PC games are released to a gaming audience, and most of these gamers know that to effectively play a game, you need to have some sense when it comes to min's and max's in regards to PC gaming performance.

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Originally Posted by JonLuso

Low-end and mid-ranged PC/laptops do limit games, yes, but assuming those games are PC-only, this is something that can be easily rectified compared to that of a cross-platform environment-based game involving consoles.

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Hand waving and calling it "easily rectified" for low-mid range PCs doesn't alter the simple fact that PS4 is for all intents and purposes an low-mid range gaming PC. And like many PCs it will not get a hardware upgrade. PS4 is an x86 platform, it's as much a PC as any PC sold by Dell, HP, Lenovo or anyone else.There is no difference in scaling a client for low-mid range PCs vs scaling it to PS4, hell it's the same code base.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

I think they should just separate us. Let console users play with other console players and PC play with themselves

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You seem to respect the PS4, but I have to call you on this line
This would be devastating to the game. Its cross platform functionality is a part of what makes the game great. Splitting us up would completely fracture the community. Most LS's, FC's, and statics would be ripped in two.
Additionally, how would a PS4 only static check their DPS for raiding progression? I can't imagine SE giving PC players that sort of advantage, even though it wold have no direct bearing on the PS4 servers.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Segregating console and PC players would be counter productive to the game's future, not to mention that people haven't the slighted clue whether a person is playing on PS4 with a DS4, or on PC with a 3rd party controller.

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That's for sure. I wouldn't want to separate them. Imagine the que times then. I just said that because its kinda sad this whole PC/console debate. Its like two old men arguing over tuna or chicken salad. They both do the same thing, for all purposes here anyways.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

That's for sure. I wouldn't want to separate them. Imagine the que times then. I just said that because its kinda sad this whole PC/console debate. Its like two old men arguing over tuna or chicken salad. They both do the same thing, for all purposes here anyways.

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LOL agreed. Though I shall note that tuna will always smell fishy.... ;)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Hand waving and calling it "easily rectified" for low-mid range PCs doesn't alter the simple fact that PS4 is for all intents and purposes an low-mid range gaming PC. And like many PCs it will not get a hardware upgrade. PS4 is an x86 platform, it's as much a PC as any PC sold by Dell, HP, Lenovo or anyone else.There is no difference in scaling a client for low-mid range PCs vs scaling it to PS4, hell it's the same code base.

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The PS4 is still a console; you can call it whatever you want: a low-end PC, mid-ranged, whatever. The fact is that its specs are locked in; if it were truly a PC-based environment, you could change the components of said console to match the needs of a game.

The PC-based architecture simply allows games to be better tooled to perform as expected on PS4; to say that it earns the same respects of PCs, though, is not true. You cannot perform hard-ware scaling with the PS4, that is the only thing that's needed to know that it'll hold the game back inevitably. PCs will never do this on paper, as the requirements will just be raised (Look to WoW or SC for examples).

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Originally Posted by radioactive_lego

This game could be 8-bit, i'd play it.

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Is it wrong that I now want this?

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Originally Posted by Anubis_Nephthys

You seem to respect the PS4, but I have to call you on this line

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I have both. Though my PC is a bit aged was top of the line gaming when I bought it and haven't done anything to it. I do play this game on the PS4. I have games for my PC that a console could probably never run. I really don't think that the PS4 is holding anything back on this game or will it in the future. What could they possibly want to add that the PS4 couldn't handle? If there is any limitation its that wire/wireless connection required to play the game.

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Originally Posted by JonLuso

The PS4 is still a console; you can call it whatever you want: a low-end PC, mid-ranged, whatever. The fact is that its specs are locked in; if it were truly a PC-based environment, you could change the components of said console to match the needs of a game.

The PC-based architecture simply allows games to be better tooled to perform as expected on PS4; to say that it earns the same respects of PCs, though, is not true.

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OK, look, stop defending the PC, it's not under attack. The vast majority of PCs in existence will *never* see a hardware upgrade during their life, how is that any different? PC chauvinism isn't a substitute for logic, reason and fact.

p.s. please do not assume I am ignorant of PC technology or that I am some console fanboy. I've worked with PCs at the hardware level since 1985, I've torn down and rebuilt PCs, I've built systems from scratch. I'm by no means a PC hater. I'm just calling it as I see it.

It could probably handle almost anything, at this point. The only things holding it back are the CPU and GPU, both of which are somewhere in the low-mid range of performance classes.

The PS4 has access to 5 GB of its 8 GB reserved for games, according to various developers. Part of the 3 GB is for System operations and background applications, like running Party or PS Store.

5 GB is enough to run this game for years to come, it would seem.

That still doesn't mean that, theoretically, it won't hold the game back at some point if it has the same lifespan that XI did (14 years and running). It's only a matter of time.

@Kosmos: Look, I can see you're getting peeved about the subject, it's obvious. But, you keep referring to points that the PS4 is just as capable as a PC (low-mid ranged), it seems like. All I'm saying is that, no, it's not. The fact is that PS4 hard-locks the game to the PS4's specs. Once a developer commits to developing on PS4, it cannot freely hardware-scale like it may have done in the past. Simply cutting the cord on a console base is disastrous, as most have pointed out. This is a product of locked-in specs; PC's will never have this issue as low-mid ranged PCs will simply be dropped in lieu of newer PCs for PC-only games/upgrades. Simple as that. I'm aware that PC is not under attack; I'm just amazed that people think that PS4 isn't at fault, or at least, that's the vibe I'm getting.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

That does beg the question.
If you replace the motherboard, is it the same computer?

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According to some people, you don't even have to go that far for it to be 'completely different'.

Speaking of console, what was the reason for no xbox version?
iirc ff11 came to xbox but not ps2

The Xbox did not have a large enough Hard Drive to download and install the game and developing an external device was thought of to store additional memory, but the 360 was close to release. They decided to develop it for that instead because of its ability to store data on large flash memory/hard drive memory storage inherently.

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

Speaking of console, what was the reason for no xbox version?
iirc ff11 came to xbox but not ps2

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XBox Live. Yeah, that's it. That's all. XI was spared the 'need' for it because the 360 needed a 'killer app' in Japan due to utter disinterest in the console over there. Microsoft wasn't so open to dropping it with XIV, and Yoshida has stated repeatedly that he doesn't want to charge players more than a subscription fee to play the game. He's kept to his word on this with the PS4 given you don't need PS+ to play, not that Sony is forcing anyone to use PS+ to begin with unlike Microsoft with XBox Live.

I think another reason is that they don't want to allow cross-platform gaming with competitors, or at least, that's the reasoning it was back then.

Nowadays, they're letting Xbox One games connect to PC gamers in games; I guess XIV just wasn't lucky.

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Originally Posted by JonLuso

@Kosmos: Look, I can see you're getting peeved about the subject, it's obvious. But, you keep referring to points that the PS4 is just as capable as a PC (low-mid ranged), it seems like. All I'm saying is that, no, it's not. The fact is that PS4 hard-locks the game to the PS4's specs. Once a developer commits to developing on PS4, it cannot freely hardware-scale like it may have done in the past. Simply cutting the cord on a console base is disastrous, as most have pointed out. This is a product of locked-in specs; PC's will never have this issue as low-mid ranged PCs will simply be dropped in lieu of newer PCs for PC-only games/upgrades. Simple as that. I'm aware that PC is not under attack; I'm just amazed that people think that PS4 isn't at fault, or at least, that's the vibe I'm getting.

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I'm peeved because it's a pointless discussion and needlessly divisive.

Your point seems to be that because PS4 is a closed platform it will receive no hardware upgrades. Clearly, that's not in question. However, PCs are not some magical boxes that auto-upgrade themselves either. The absolute vast majority of PCS will never see an upgrade past a USB storage device, and that includes most PCs used to play games.

You say "Once a developer commits to developing on PS4, it cannot freely hardware-scale like it may have done in the past", and yet I think you are missing the point. A developer of a PC game has to be aware of what target platforms (plural) they are targeting because their game has to work on a vast variety of hardware configurations and capability including the lowest common denominator of PC configurations that they can/will support. The game engine therefore has to scale itself for the hardware it's running on. I trust we can agree on that point?

Now the thing is, that with the exception of the Sony specific authentication/networking elements, the PS4 version is the PC version. In other words, the PS4 is now just another one of the various flavor of PC that the developer has to consider in their work. Even if the game begins supporting newer and more powerful PC configurations, the game still scales to the lowest common denominator.

The sticking point for me here is that you seem to want to treat the PS4 as if it is something special, something exceptional that causes more of a problem in this regard than low-mid range PCs do. What I am saying is that there is no reason to do so.

Sure you can upgrade the high end PCs but that doesn't alter the fact that the overwhelming majority will remain unaltered, and short of forcing those players to buy another computer, you better keep supporting their configuration. In practice and effect, that is exactly the same impact as you are ascribing to the PS4 because it cannot be upgraded.

As I said at the start, it's a pointless discussion and needlessly divisive, I'm kicking myself for even responding and for being drawn into an even more pointless argument since despite our different angles on the thing, we broadly agree.

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Originally Posted by JonLuso

I think another reason is that they don't want to allow cross-platform gaming with competitors, or at least, that's the reasoning it was back then.

Nowadays, they're letting Xbox One games connect to PC gamers in games; I guess XIV just wasn't lucky.

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No, not quite. MS doesn't want to give open access to developers, they want everything to be mediated through XBL including all revenue (even subs). It's basically a revenue grab by MS, they want a % of everything including subs. With Sony, the only fee is the per game royalty that applies to all Playstation games. SE is free to update the game, run the subscription service, and Mog station items entirely outside PSN leaving SE to receive 100% of the revenue generated.

With respect to MS, games that they allow cross platform play on are (IIRC) Windows games that are exclusive to MS platforms - in other words, they are not entirely cross platform. You won't see a Mac version of them for example.

The difference between supporting the PS4 and supporting low-end PCs is essentially the drop in revenue you get from dropping one for the other. Rather, the established consumer base for PS4 would, apparently, outnumber that of the the former. But that's not even the point. The main crux of the reasoning I employed is that, the "impact" you get from dropping the low-end PCs over the PS4 is marginal at best.

Referring to an earlier point that many collaborate on, PC gamers tend to stay on top of hardware and software developments. To say that most gamers of this spectrum would lose out on developers dropping support for older legacy hardware is hardly true or even remotely as effectual compared to console phasing.

Dropping support on PS4 is different: this is a different consumer base. These players either purchased it for the solace that it would be supported for years to come or that they decided to avoid the apparent nuances of building a gaming PC. Whatever the premise or reasoning for obtaining a PS4, developers realize these reasons and commit to a console much more feverishly compared to lower-end PC's. The 2 are not alike when it comes to sales reductions in terms of hardware phasing.

It's easy to compare similar hardware technically, but the root of such hardware differs; in this case, the only reason hardware-scaling happens is because developers wish to innovate and go beyond previous set limits. They cannot do this with a console because of the aforementioned reason. They simple must deal with it and try to push the console in such a manner that still warrants a continued consumer support base.

Consoles will always hold games back; low-end PCs do, as well, but they never do so in the way consoles do.

I play on both. Generally if im soloing, doing quests, or storyline Ill just sit back on my couch and play the PS4 version. But if I run dungeons or raids I run it on PC. Thats pretty much my life with the game.

The PS4 version does not look anywhere near as good as the PC version with graphics maxed out, there is a big difference, but I don't play MMO's for graphics lol.

I like both versions just fine, but when it's time to get serious, I always login to PC.

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Originally Posted by JonLuso

Consoles will always hold games back; low-end PCs do, as well, but they never do so in the way consoles do.

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On this point, we shall have to agree to disagree.

I believe that we also disagree in that I do not believe that the majority of people playing games on their PC are aware of the hardware and software developments in PC gaming, I think that they only care if their game works. Another point I think we shall have to agree to disagree on.

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Originally Posted by JonLuso

...Consoles will always hold games back...

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This was true decades ago, when computers were still struggling to hammer out a standard and game consoles were 'special snowflakes'. The last genuine 'special snowflake' console was the PS3 and Sony learned their lesson with it. Each one was cost more than it sold for. The PS4 is essentially a mid-range PC using standard parts in a well-designed 'tower'. The benefit of it for developers, though, is that it's going to be the same standard parts for the life of the console. Instead of designing for a range of component configurations you can instead challenge the console's singular configuration. It's quite the load off your back knowing Timmy with his 8 year old PC isn't going to be trying to run the game.

When I say consoles will hold games back, I mean that in the theoretical sense.

Games are tailored to current platforms, and it may be even such that current consoles are able to handle the vision that developers are aiming for.

But, what I'm referring to is the fact that games are being developed within a metaphoric "enclosed space"; PCs will always be a place where the possibilities are, for all intents and purposes, endless. Consoles are exponentially increasing in hardware potential, yes, but PCs always can be outfitted with the best that hardware has to offer.

I'm, in no way, saying that consoles aren't viable. But, in the case of multi-platform gaming, consoles are the plateau of development when they are thrown into the mix with PCs.

If games are first developed on consoles and then ported over to PCs, the games were optimized with consoles in mind. Any limitations the consoles impose are apparent, but one could find solace in that the game was developed with this in mind as opposed to the other possible continuum taking place.

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Originally Posted by ZemusM

I play on both. Generally if im soloing, doing quests, or storyline Ill just sit back on my couch and play the PS4 version. But if I run dungeons or raids I run it on PC. Thats pretty much my life with the game.

The PS4 version does not look anywhere near as good as the PC version with graphics maxed out, there is a big difference, but I don't play MMO's for graphics lol.

I like both versions just fine, but when it's time to get serious, I always login to PC.

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As someone that plays on both as well, I agree with everything you've said. I love my ps4 but there's this tiny bit of sluggishness to it that doesn't exist on my PC. I couldn't care less about the graphical difference (which is, however, obvious if you play on ps4 for a while and then go back to PC); it's the smooth performance I'm looking for first and foremost. I have a feeling that the huge areas in heavensward might widen this gulf a bit as well, but we'll see.

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Originally Posted by ZemusM

but when it's time to get serious, I always login to PC.

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This about sums it up for me.