Red Mage

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Originally Posted by TheMunimai

But Red Mage isn't a healer ... that's its problem.

I would love to see Red Mage in this game, but I wouldn't want it shoe horned into just a healer or just a dps .. traditionally it was a jack of all trades - that it what I would like to see. Hopefully, now that SE are moving away from classes we may see something in the future.

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Bard and Machinist will be support/DPS, Red Mage I think is a lot harder to implement(in FFXIV) than Bard or Dancer though. I think we would see Dancer before Red Mage.

I had ideas about a RDM but then NIN came and the idea is more or less the same, I'll still put it there :
Lore:
The red mages are few gifted adventurers in both the art of war and magic and created a way to use both in combat at the same time.

Requires one DoW lvl 30 and one DoM lvl 30.

Weapon: rapier and shield.

Skills :
Elemental blades :
Each have 130 potency, gets doubled if you alternate between astral and umbral.

Astral :
Flame Tongue : Grants fire and astral, removes Umbral
Wind Slash : Grants Wind and astral, removes Umbral
Thunder Blade : Grants Thunder and astral, removes Umbral

Umbral :
Ice Brand : Grants Ice and umbral, removes astral
Gaïa Blade : Grants Earth and umbral, removes astral
Coral Sword : Grats Water and umbral, removes astral

Astral Cleave : Grants one of the three astral element that you don't already have and astral, removes Umbral. Deals damages to the target in a conal zone, inflict astral seed ; 50 potency

Umbral Thrust : Grants one of the three Umbral element that you don't already have and umbral, removes astral. Makes all the astral seeds around you explode, dealing damages to the target and the surrounding targets, one target cannot get damages from a seed more than 4 times by a single Umbral Thrust ; 20 potency ( x4max = 80 potency max )

Concurrence :
Turns the next elemental blade into one of these powerful spells ;these spells remove Astral, umbral and the elemental buffs ( out of the GCD, no CD )

Inferno ( Requires Thunder Earth and Water ) : Deals few damages and apply a DoT
Ark Blast ( Requires Wind, Fire and Ice ) : Deals few damages and makes the target emits lighting inflicting few damages to the targets surrounding it for 20 seconds.
Wind Burst ( Requires Water, Thunder and Earth ) : Deals few damages and a DoT

Torrent ( Requires Wind, Ice and Fire ) : Deals few damages and push back the target.
White Out : ( Requires Water, thunder and earth ) : Deals heavy single target damages
Cataclysm : ( Requires Fire, Ice and Wind ) : Deals low damages and slow the movement speed of the target ( 20% ).

Unlike others, these two gets their damages doubled by the astral and umbral balance :
Luminescence : ( Requires Fire, Thunder and Same as Astral Cleave, but double the damages. Grants astral, remove umbral.
Black Hole : Same as Umbral thrust, but damages. Grants umbral, remove astral.

Aetherial thrust : ( Requires all 6 elements ; used with his own skill unlike others Concurrences ) Incrase magic and thrust damages the targets take by 5%, all other thrust debuff now also give the same amount of damage increase to magic and all other magic debuff now also give the same amount of damage increase to thrust. 300 potency.

Spell :

Heal : Heal for a low potency. (3 sec cast )

Out of the GCD skills :

Stun : 4 sec stun 30 sec CD. Shares Cd with Silence
Silence : inflict silence 30 sec CD Shares Cd with Stun.
Double : Double the next Concurrence ( 2 mn CD )
Elemental weapon : +20% damages.
Elemental Shield : -20% damages for 15 secs ( 2 mn CD )
Magic Rush : Turn into an aetherial form and rush to the target. (150 potency ; 50 sec CD )
Null : Nullify one spell supposed to affect the RDM.
Ultimate shield : 100% block the next physical attack.
Release aether : Gives to the whole party 10 % of their TP and MP ( 90 sec CD )

Not sure if I read it somewhere a long time ago on the forum, but didn't Yoshi-P or someone mention that they didn't want to add the blue/red mage cause they didn't want the problem of them overtaking White/Black mages or something(I think the other was how hard it would be to put them in game)?

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Originally Posted by Kayden1010

I never played XI, and I couldn't afford another subscription no matter how cheap, but I though it'd be fun to be a Red Mage, and I love how they look (since red is my favorite color) I mean being a mage in the midst of battle seems cool, instead of fighting from the sidelines, but its no big deal. I just thought it'd be a good and fun idea.

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It would've been cool had it played like that in XI, but sadly that wasn't the case. RDM was excellent at soloing things other jobs couldn't, but in a party scenario, it was forced into being a backline healer.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

It would've been cool had it played like that in XI, but sadly that wasn't the case. RDM was excellent at soloing things other jobs couldn't, but in a party scenario, it was forced into being a backline healer.

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And pimped out for constant refresh (at least early in the life of XI).

Red mage in its "classic" form won't work, because it will just be casting fire, blizzard, thunder, and cure, cure2, regen. Yes, I like the Red Mage outfit and hope it ends up in FFXIV someday, but people are either dreaming up the most boring class ever (gimped black mage/ white mage combo) or designing something in their heads that isn't really a "classic" red mage.

As for blue mage, let's get that in the game. Enemy magic would do well to COMPLEMENT the spells we already have in the game. So... how about Blue Mage is a questline, similar to the moogle mail quests, where we gain access to Blue Magic as a CROSS CLASS skill line? Blue mage abilities could fall into damage, tanking, and healing categories, and it would be entirely up to players which abilities they want to slot at anytime. As we "level up" Blue Mage, we gain some blue mage glamor gear and pick up a passive talent or two. Thousand needles, Lv 5 confuse, choco meteor, the awesome class/ ability combos are endless.

First you'd have to program interesting enemy skills to begin with. What we have right now is pure trash that's not worth learning.

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Originally Posted by Chek

Would like to see more of the traditional oldschool FF jobs instead of some of the newer stuff (Astrologian, Machinist, etc).

Lets get some Blue/Red Mages and stuff going.

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Originally Posted by Ultear_Milkovich

Cant disagree more.

This game is not only for people who played all the other FF before. It hits a new playerbase so please let ARR have its own personality.

I prefer if the new jobs have new concepts. This way, in 20 years, whiners on the FF28 forums would be able to "i want old school astrologian from FF14 pleaaaaase"

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Astrologian and Machinist aren't new to the FF series, though definitely not some of the "traditional" well known jobs.

Machinist: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Machinist
Astrologian (Astrologer): http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Astrologer_(Tactics)

I hear folks requesting Red Mage or Blue Mage or whatever and saying, "They'd better make it like it was in <insert game here>." or "They'd better not make it like it was in <insert game here>." or "They'd better not screw it up like they did <insert FFXIV job here>." That kind of thinking is BOUND to lead to disappointment. Folks need to accept that FFXIV is a different game than other games in the Final Fantasy series. It, like FF's before it, presents its own new interpretation of the Final Fantasy classics, tailored to fit into the game's structure.

As such, if RDM is added, don't expect it to be a TRUE jack-of-all-trades; it will fit firmly into the structure of the Tank/Healer/DPS trinity used in this game - there's no way that the devs would consider the addition of just one job (even a fan favorite like RDM) to be worth all that, and convincing them that we'd accept nothing less would be a great way to ensure we never see it at all!

Nevertheless, it could well have a nod to its versatility in previous games. It could be a DPS job with a healing stance, for instance, just like healers and their Cleric's Stance (heck, maybe they'll even be able to cross-class it), or maybe it'll have a minor cure on a sixty second timer; enough to provide a little support, but far from what would be needed to completely take over a healer's role in a pinch.

The problem with RDM in XIV is that for it to be implemented in a way that fits into the game's clear-cut holy trinity structure, you'll have to effectively remove most of what even makes a RDM what it is. If you give it the ability to choose between a healer or DPS flag for party content... that's too OP because you'll always have an extra healer and/or DPS than what the content was designed for. If we just give it some equivalent to Cleric Stance, we run back into the same problem of "it wouldn't really be a jack-of-all-trades anymore". It'd... kinda just be SMN if it had CS and some more healing skills.

We also have the issue of most other DPS classes giving party buffs (or enemy debuffs) that a RDM would be known for providing in other FFs. Between all DPS DoTs, BRD's songs, and whatever buffs MCH is bringing to the table... What's left for RDM to be able to do and NOT come off as redundant? Or worse -- useless? I also apply this same entire argument to people wanting the implementation of BLU. I don't get how it could be introduced into XIV's combat style and trinity system without either making it terribly OP or terribly redundant/non-unique, ALL while keeping it well within the confines of what makes a BLU feel like a BLU.

I've tried searching for dev opinions on adding hybrid jobs to XIV... but all I've found are conflicting statements. So I'm not entirely sure what to believe when it comes to their actual thoughts on the matter of ever implementing them.

I would like to see rdm as a dps-support job. Having a dps rotation or something on gcd while having some healer and support abilities off gcd with a resonable timer. That way they would be a dps job with capabilities of healing on oh shit moment and supporting the party. I think that would be the more interesting way of doing rdm in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by dice137

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Well, if we're going to talk about redundancy, that's pretty much at the very core of this game. EVERY job is redundant, by design. Outside of a bare few situations, any job of a given role can be replaced by any other job of a given role. Barring min-maxers' arguments about optimization, you can swap out your SMN for a MNK, your SCH for a WHM, your WAR for a PLD, and still do just fine. Only raids upset this balance (for instance, in places where you absolutely need to have a source of Silence, or where Stoneskin alone won't save the day and Sacred Soil plus Succor is needed as well), and even in those cases, once the raids get opened up to the general public they get nerfs to offset that (such as ADS's paralyze no longer being unremovable).

Whatever role RDM fills in this game, it won't be a role that could not be filled by some other job. The same can be said for ANY new job added to the game. New jobs will be doing the same things old jobs do. Healers will heal. Tanks will tank. DPS will DPS. To escape it would require a substantial change in the design philosophy for FFXIV where ANY job will do, so long as you fit the requisite number of tanks, healers, and DPS.

Whether this means RDM can't exist in this game without betraying the core meaning of being a Red Mage depends entirely on what you consider that core meaning to be. Personally, I'm pretty versatile in my opinion of what RDM is: it should wield a sword, preferably a fencing sword, and it should be able to cast both white and black magic. Beyond that, the sky's pretty much the limit. The white and black magic don't have to be spells used by other jobs, for example - I'm not married to the notion that RDM MUST be able to cast Blizzard and Fire, just like BLMs do, or cast Cure just like WHMs do; they can have their own brand of white and black magic. Or even just magic-like job abilities, like CNJ's Fluid Aura. They don't have to be masters of status spells, like they were in FFXI. They don't have to have enspells, though I personally think that would be a good idea if the plan is to make them DPS.

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Originally Posted by dice137

The problem with RDM in XIV is that for it to be implemented in a way that fits into the game's clear-cut holy trinity structure, you'll have to effectively remove most of what even makes a RDM what it is.

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a RDM Tank would retain almost all of what makes a RDM a RDM. Melee Fencer with Black and White Magic spells.

it doesn't have to cast Fire for as much damage as a BLM, it doesn't have to Cure for as much as a WHM, it just needs to do both of those things while generating hate and not dying. Hate generation is easy, you can add that to any ability.

between Phalanx + Spike effects + Stoneskin + self cures + high Parry with the fencing swords, not dying should not be all that difficult either.

That's all well and fine, I suppose. I still don't see the place for a hybrid class in XIV without running into some serious design pitfalls in terms of how the content is currently balanced. At least, I can't really see it working well at this current time, personally. Perhaps something about the game will change in the future to accommodate such a thing better.

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Originally Posted by dice137

That's all well and fine, I suppose. I still don't see the place for a hybrid class in XIV without running into some serious design pitfalls in terms of how the content is currently balanced. At least, I can't really see it working well at this current time, personally. Perhaps something about the game will change in the future to accommodate such a thing better.

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People seem to be missing that you don't have to make it hybrid to keep the feel of having both Black and White magic (In addition to being a melee damage dealer).

Imagine a Job that leaps into combat with a single sword. Expertly flowing from one flourishing combo to the next, using TP to power its attacks. TP starts running low... The fabulously dressed combatant in red takes a moment to concentrate as an elemental aura surrounds his weapon. The Red Mage switches to his primary attack stance (Burst phase people, keep up) and unleashes a new set of strikes that blast away at his foe using the power imbued on his weapon. A powerful upward slash forces him into a backflip (Let's call this Rising Slash) and as he lands he launches a powerful blast of elemental energy (Which combos in to Aetherblast) before executing a charging thrust (ends the combo with Piercing Charge). MP is used to power these attacks and this is where the Red Mage will be popping cooldowns to maximize damage. When MP is exhausted the RDM switches to his recharge phase by executing TP moves, once again dealing physical damage, giving his MP time to regen.

So that sounds cool and all, but what about the healing? Good question! Here's where we take a hint from Cleric Stance, only instead of it being called "Cleric Stance" we call it something like "Aethershift". Now, instead of dealing extra elemental damage with each attack, the Red Mage is applying healing to everyone in the party with each attack. Rising Slash heals the party for a % of damage dealt, Aetherblast turns into an AoE heal with a potency of 80 (or whatever), and Piercing Charge applies a minor regen effect to everyone in the group (that lasts about as long as another rotation in the MP phase). This ability would also swap your INT for MND while it's active.

Obviously the healing aspect of the job would have to be tweaked so that it's supportive, but not overpowered. This would be a great way to trade off some DPS to allow healers to rest during a stressful fight. Give healers a little more breathing room if they die during a boss.

In addition to these rotations, the RDM would have cooldowns. Most of these cooldowns would affect the party instead of just the RDM, such as Haste, a 10 - 15 second Skillspeed/Spellspeed/GCD reduction on a 5 minute cooldown. Or Refresh which would be a lot like a party-wide Shroud of Saints (Without the Aggro reduction).

Again, these would all need to be balanced so that the job doesn't step on toes, but I think it would fit in nicely this way.

Yeah, I realize that I'm bad at laying this out like a "Job proposal" but I find that imagining how it would work is more constructive than planning out specifics such as the level at which each skill is acquired. :P

Another idea I was toying with involved giving the Red Mage certain attacks or spells based on the Cross-Class spells he equips, but I think that might be overreaching and a little too complex for the current system. :P

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Originally Posted by Arkanethered

You pretty much just described ninja with a new paint job.

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I didn't respond to this earlier due to the thread going down through the pages anyway and because I didn't think of any good response at the time, but since this thread is now back up here...

If we're going to go by the paint job logic, you may as well extend that to all the melee DPS roles. By adding in all the details, you'll see each one is different:

DRG: Can give a debuff to the enemy and give extra piercing damage buff for both themselves and BRDs.
NIN: Can give a slashing damage buff to themselves, PLDs, and WARs.
MNK: Can decrease the enemy INT via Dragon Kick, and decreases the target's Blunt resistance. (Only works well for themselves right now as I'm aware)

And that wasn't even all the details. Now lets boil away all those little details and get to the point. What's the number one thing they all have in common with each other?

"ZERG RUSH THEIR FACEZ AND KILL THEM ALL! KEKEKEK!" (With proper DPS rotations preferably)

Seriously though, that's the one thing they all have in common with each other. They kill. Up close. Just like that. In this regard, each and every melee DPS role could be described as another melee DPS role with a different coat of paint. So I don't see how Red Mage should be deterred from getting in just because my earlier description example of how a Red Mage could work sounded similar to Ninjas.

Besides, Red Mage would probably bring a different utility debuff to put on the enemy that would make other DPS roles approve of the Red Mage putting up said debuff on the enemy... or even the Healers and Tanks for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Teslo

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I'd play it.

I agree with some posters in the sense that the current battle system is heavily concentrated on a class/job being a healer/dps/tank. The game doesn't really seem to be designed true hybrid roles. However, I also agree that the spirit or essence of what makes the Red Mage so iconic could be replicated in the current system (using both white magic, black magic in addition to some melee skills to fulfill one of the three roles).

Would support this.
Red Mage is the original Pimp from Final Fantasy 1.
Look at that pimp hat:

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/f...mage_large.png

RDM for 1st Melee-oriented DoM(Sabre/Thrusting sword)

don't give it a shield we got GLD/PLD already, give him a magic gauntlet/glove or something for the offhand(grimoire?)

make it so that his spells have no cast time AND a melee animation when used in a combo chain ea. sword->sword-> black magic/ white magic(blind for foes, aoe weak heal/regen for party)

using an elemental black magic in the combo then proceeds to en-'element' the RDM, this buff can later be expended to improve an ability OR another that requires an elemental based weapon OR transfer the existing buff to an ally.

casting magic then improves melee abilities like giving them a gapclosing effect or telekinesis(ranged-'melee' attacks)

my idea of a graceful(since getting hit will prolly mean death) melee caster with a nice red hat.

Red Mage is possible but you should not expect it to be the Red Mage from other FF games.

Most likely if Red Mage is introduced they will provide a different twist to Red Mage skills to show its focus on being a Melee Mage over what RDM is known for in other FF games.

they could bring back some old thm skills from 1.0 and make an xiv version of rdm lol. THM in 1.0 (before jobs) was fun to play with drains and absorbs, paralyze, slow, banish, dia, poison, stygian spikes, bio, scourge, etc.

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Originally Posted by dice137

That's all well and fine, I suppose. I still don't see the place for a hybrid class in XIV without running into some serious design pitfalls in terms of how the content is currently balanced. At least, I can't really see it working well at this current time, personally.

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Hence why the design should lean towards melee DPS and tack on utility on top of that. Given how stats work, a RDM's gear would push them to their intended role as is (why I would expect it to share gear with BRD and NIN to a degree), leaving room for utility (provided the design supports said utility to help define the job).

Because the job's known for borrowing things from existing jobs, I don't think it'd be that weird for it to be able to crossclass stuff like Cure, Stoneskin and Thunder and have them be more useful than to the other jobs. I would argue the abilities it can crossclass do help define RDM up to a point and provide utility without requiring too much development being devoted to that aspect of the job.

Going back to the original final Fantasy, Red Mage was always just a base line all around filler. At best it could only support offence, healing, and Arcana. It couldn't take as much damage as the knight, hit as hard as Monk, or have access to stronger spells of Whm and Blm. At best it was a middle of the road filler for anyone trying to form a 4 man party. With that said having a back up to help heal, attack, or spell spam was it's main useage.

Given the mechanics of FFXIV just because you want it doesn't mean it'll work. At best Rune Knight/Fencer/Sword mage/whatever, could also do what most folks associate with a Red Mage and is more likely to fit in the games structure of jobs. The same goes for Blue Mage, the learning mechanic is not possible but more likely it'll work as a mob/npc/boss only feature. On a sider note Gao/Gau wasn't exactly a blue mage like Gogo but his abilities were similar. Some jobs you'll just need to think them out side of the norm. Considering the abilities of Rdm are already split among the existing mages. Odds are any of the sword-mage types may likely be a support DD in FFXIV, but also the closest to a Red Mage hybrid. However for some, similar or close wont be enough. Even though RDM in origin was just a flexible support filler ment to support any of the main jobs with out being able to replace them.

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Originally Posted by MaethusXion

yet shoehorned into doing nothing but casting a cycle of 2-4 spells and nothing else otherwise at risk of being ridiculed, kicked out of any group, etc, you can see how that leaves a bad taste for the FFXI incarnation of RDM to me.

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Yet this in a way supports my stance that an Arcanist with 50/50 mods into int/mnd stats is basically a book toting RDM when compared to what the one in FFXI was like. Swaping to either Summoner or Scholar would have the same after taste most got from FFXI's Red Mage. Those who found ways to exceed it's limitations got it nerfed back to square one

Red Mage doesn't have a place in the current design of things.

For Red Mage to have a place they would probably have to change RDM all together, which would be sad. Look at how SMN was butchered.

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

Given the mechanics of FFXIV just because you want it doesn't mean it'll work. At best Rune Knight/Fencer/Sword mage/whatever, could also do what most folks associate with a Red Mage and is more likely to fit in the games structure of jobs.

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Only if you limit yourself to console FFs. Console FFs can be part of the development process but should never be the sole idea pool for designing classes and jobs in an MMORPG. DRK proves that the devs can take something in a direction different from what we known, so expecting them to do something similar with RDM is not outlandish by any stretch of the imagination.

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The same goes for Blue Mage, the learning mechanic is not possible but more likely it'll work as a mob/npc/boss only feature.

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I've given examples in the past of how the current design for jobs would work for BLU, but it would require them using the Class => Job method as done with the current jobs as opposed to classless jobs like the ones coming in Heavensward.

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Considering the abilities of Rdm are already split among the existing mages. Odds are any of the sword-mage types may likely be a support DD in FFXIV, but also the closest to a Red Mage hybrid.

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Convert is useful for BLM, so I have no beefs with them getting it. Doublecast wouldn't work as it does in console FFs (sort of why I suggested it be turned into something that doubles the potency and cost of abilities instead). Enspells are still not part of any class, either.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

For Red Mage to have a place they would probably have to change RDM all together, which would be sad. Look at how SMN was butchered.

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Oh no, summoner went from being a job that is either barely useful or stupidly overpowered into something that has a sustainable gameplay model and can actually be brought to raids without needing stupid gimmicks like Perfect Defense. The horror... /sarcasm

The rapier and the hat alone make red mage a must have. I can totally see a red mage being the Yugiri of 3.0

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

Red Mage doesn't have a place in the current design of things.

For Red Mage to have a place they would probably have to change RDM all together, which would be sad. Look at how SMN was butchered.

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what specifically about RDM has to exist for it to still be a RDM to you?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

what specifically about RDM has to exist for it to still be a RDM to you?

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Oh, I know: It is only a RDM if it is exactly like it was in FFXI