Seconding this. I'm pretty sure there's not any cheating going on Coeurl, or if there is, it's not to the scale that everyone on the forums seems to be complaining about. Nobody on the board had perfect wins, and I was actually less than 100 points away from the top 20 even though I only played the NPC (I'm not competitive enough to seek out other PCs) and only won 8 of 15 matches. I sure win trading is a thing on many servers but the idea of cancelling this tournament for everyone is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCommon
Dear Yoshi & Team: About Current TT Tournament Model
Printable View
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03-05-2015, 06:24 AMsarehptar
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03-05-2015, 06:46 AMVynceNiore
There was cheating on Behemoth
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03-05-2015, 06:49 AMNoumoI have to agree to this point. As it is understandable that tossing out only those who got to the leaderboard by agreement / payment / cheating is just not possible without misjudging some players, it absolutly is in the realm of possiblity that all tournaments are canceled right away. Right now I'm still in the top tier on Shiva and got there by legal and fair meanings but I still think that canceling everything is the best and only way to handle this situation until a better solution for handling tournaments can be provided.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
THAT is your justification? 'It isn't illegal so everyone could and should do it (even though it is unethical and antisocial)'. Cheating on your girlfriend/boyfriend isn't illegal as well but you're still a shameless and poor person if you do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by reel124c41
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03-05-2015, 06:52 AMHaru
On Excalibur the top player has 13/13 wins.. still has 2 matched up their sleeves and has over 1700 points.. They will undoubtedly finish the last two matches to claim 2000+ points near the end or as soon as someone tries to beat them.
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03-05-2015, 07:11 AMmyahele
Cancelling it now will probably cause an uproar. So hopefully SE learned from this and will make necessary adjustments for future tournaments.
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03-05-2015, 07:50 AMAlberelAll it takes is three people per server to cheat for the Lightning card to be out of reach to any legitimate players. Of the thousands of players per server do you really believe less than three will have cheated on any of them by the end of the tournament?Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCommon
You may hold third place as of the last time you checked but there's a week for people to outdo that and it's only going to get worse as more people figure out the technique. It would honestly be naive to think that the top three spots won't all be bought before the end of the tournament.
I'm labeling the people that will be in the top 3 by the end of the tournament as cheaters. You just said yourself that people have already beaten you with perfect scores. The only reason you held a spot in the top three before that was because you got a score up there before the cheaters on your server figured it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahlimits
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03-05-2015, 08:13 AMNoumoIf your common sense don't immediatly tell you that this is wrong it seems like I'm just a better person.Quote:
Originally Posted by reel124c41
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03-05-2015, 08:28 AMSongJooheePlease put in a hot-fix that removes all tournament rewards until you have fixed them. You should not be rewarding cheaters even if it's for one week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grekumah
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03-05-2015, 08:31 AMCuratio_Magus
Should we be directing the feedback here, or will there be a place/forum for that specifically?
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03-05-2015, 08:38 AMh0tNstilettosThank you for the reply Grekumah! That's great to hear. ^_^ I hope the development team will take their time coming up with a solution, as long as it's a solution. However much time is needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grekumah
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03-05-2015, 09:01 AMNyaliaOh my, and humble too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Noumo
Seriously though, you aren't. Get over yourself and stop being so petty. Selling wins is as acceptable as selling carries right now. It's not against the ToS, so it's not reportable, and it's not disallowed. And yes, that means people can do it. Stop forcing everyone to play the way you do and get over yourself.
And yes, the tourny has serious issues and really needs to be fixed. SE has acknowledged this and will look into it for future tournies. This one, however, will continue by the rules as they were written at the start of the tourny. Canceling it would only be unfair to those who have participated already, regardless of how you feel about their participation. -
03-05-2015, 09:05 AMTiger_Etesian
Hey there,
It is doubtful a solution will work where players can play people they know at will. So step one has to be a SE Controlled match making system. Ideally, that system could mirror the Hearthstone Arena style pairing system. IE I'm at 3 Wins and 0 Losses, I'm paired with someone else with 3 Wins and 0 losses or close, someone who's 2 and 1 or 2/0/1. This ensures that you create a distribution of players. You'll be paired based on your current record until you've played your 15 matches. 15/0 GUARANTEES you that week's prize card. There is no reason to keep people from collecting a none tradable entity. 15/0 Also nets you some fixed about amount of MGP, 20K or something of that nature. Graduate the prizes from there in line with the MGP generation formula that I'm sure SE has already determined.
This plan works cross realm lines, eliminates the need for a leaderboard, game rigging, and selling of matches. -
03-05-2015, 09:18 AMChocoFeru
The thing is that it's hard to prove if they cheated. On Ragnarok we have the 1st one with 15/15 wins, and there's another one around 13 position that has 15/15 wins too. Wich one cheated? none? both? Maybe the first one played against high-lvl TT players and the other one played randombly or spammed the same one. Who knows.
The fact is that it's exploitable, therefore we have a problem that must be solved. -
03-05-2015, 09:20 AMUltimasamune
I think people wouldn't care about this nearly as much if the Lightning reward were not (as far as we know) exclusive to the tournament. As OP pointed out in bullet 5, making an exclusive reward a functional item is just a poor decision and reflects a discouraging lack of understanding and foresight on the part of the people who designed the tournament. Luck-based rewards (because that's what this tournament comes down to, no matter how you slice it, provided there is no exploiting—which there is), should never grant winners an exclusive advantage over others. It's the difference between rewarding a single exclusive item (Lightning card) versus a large amount of common items (MGP). The Lightning card has no commodity equivalence as this is the only way to obtain it, and is thus invaluable. When players are locked out of obtaining something that is not only aesthetically but functionally unique, that leaves a very bad taste in their mouths. (1/2)
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03-05-2015, 09:20 AMUltimasamune
FF games have always attracted those hardcore players who love to get every last item/skill/unlockable they can in the game. When you essentially eliminate fair access to one, you are bound to irritate the player base. I am very disappointed and feel disrespected by the dearth of thought that went into this decision. At least make Lightning and the other tournament cards available for 1 million MGP like Cloud. That would alleviate a lot of people's dissatisfaction, and provide some sure way of obtaining the card. (2/2)
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03-05-2015, 10:37 AMNoumoAww, don't flatter me so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyalia
Keep repeating, that it's not against the rules, doesn't make the whole argumentation valid. Yes, yes, it certainly isn't disallowed and yes, people are able to do it but that's far far away from the subject if one should do it. It's just a matter of common sense which is set by our society and not argueable. Exploiting every advandage there is to get even if it is at the expense of other honest and hard trying people is a fine first step to a full flegded egomania. Playing fair and square doesn't mean to just avoid everything that's forbidden but playing in a way that gives equal chances to (mostly) everyone. Oh dear, there are so awful many who are with me on that regard, lucky me. And by the way, canceling everything would be harsh, true, but it would equalize everything as well which is still a good thing but I'm with Ultimasamune's argumentation eventually. -
03-05-2015, 10:49 AMMomomiMomiIf people aren't buying wins, they're going to use alts, or friends. It's honestly inconsequential. People may as well profit off of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noumo
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03-05-2015, 11:09 AMMadigariYeah, I agree. Good sportsmanship is so outdated, anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by MomomiMomi
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03-05-2015, 11:13 AMSpawniepeople will always try to find the quickest n easiest way to the top with minimal or no effort needed the way current tournaments are set up some1 with basic cards could place high just by buying wins lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Madigari
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03-05-2015, 11:28 AMRandomInternetguyFrom casual TT player PoVQuote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
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03-05-2015, 11:54 AMMadigariYou sure told him. Nevermind the fact that people are actually selling wins, asking people who aren't interested to lose to them on purpose so they can get more points, etc. But yes, it's definitely those scrubs just complaining that people are better.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomInternetguy
There's a person in my FC who whispered someone from the Triple Triad LS I'm in and asked them if they would be willing to take a dive for them, then begged them not to tell anyone after the person said no. Unfortunately, this is probably the least abhorrent thing she's done in FFXIV.
Not everyone is going to be a cheater who gets on the leaderboard. But there's definitely the potential for them to be, and that problem needs to be addressed. -
03-05-2015, 12:36 PMYumi_umi
Just make TT tourneys instanced and can only be joined via solo qeue.
This can allow possible potential for rating brackets in the future and will solve the "player gets to choose who they fight" problem.
Make the players name only visable at the end results to make it even harder for ppl to co ordinate win trading.
If they can do it for choco racing then i'm sure they can make one for TT tourneys.
But sadly TT tourneys have gotten a bad rep on its debut which is a shame. -
03-05-2015, 01:11 PMCuratio_Magus
1. Tournament matches should be through a random roullette system and allow challenges across servers. There's no reason to create pockets of players when MMR is the only stat to measure players, and no server would have any advantage over another in skill or card availability
2. Players should gain/lose MMR from winning/losing matches against players (all starting with the same base reference MMR) and continue being matched with relative MMR's.
3. There would be a higher maximum of games played to ensure more accuracy in divvying prizes, rather than the luck based system currently in use.
4. You could have a minimum amount of games to gain a general average to start, usually coined 'placement' matches, usually starting at around 10-15 games.
5. With more matches in a tournament there's more of a battle for first, throughout the week. -
03-05-2015, 01:46 PMZanarkenThe community is already up in arms. Rewarding those who cheated the system would be the worst thing SE could do at this point. Best possible outcome would be to reward all participants Lightning card & remove the MGP/other rewards for this tournament. Exploiting should not be tolerated.Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele
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03-05-2015, 02:25 PMLegaia89Are you serious? Like actually serious? Because if this was like any other tournament in the world or other games buying wins would not be tolerated. You're probably someone who did so. And IF the in-game-GM-support did in fact say that then this is absolutely no tournament what so ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by reel124c41
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03-05-2015, 02:35 PMCuratio_Magus
I'm torn.
I feel that yes, cheating and buying wins is rampant. Yes, cheaters are in the top 20 on every server. I also think the tournament is a shame purely based on its design... a mere 15 games...
Whether due to rampant cheating and exploits, or a seriously flawed 'tournament' design entirely, I do feel like the prizes should be taken off the table (as nobody has even won anything yet, and are likely to not even be the top 20 in the next 2-3 days), and replaced with a more acceptable prize (removal of a prized card) at least for the first botched tournament attempt.
Then after a review of the system and implementation of a new structure that removes the easily accessible corruption and statistically insignificant amount of trials, such serious prizes can be re-implemented.
As-is, I don't feel (personally) like maintaining the grand payouts in place right now serves the community well based on how they are being won. -
03-05-2015, 03:35 PMh0tNstilettos
I decided to post a fleshed out solution that I think would solve all the issues. My original solution did not take into account many technical issues the team might run into. This is based on what I recommended as well as other players' solutions I've read in this thread. I'm describing the system step by step.
Step 1: Registration
Players speak to the tournament registration NPC, and she will show what the rules are for that week's tournament as well as the payout/reward. If the player chooses to enter the tournament, they will then be prompted to create a deck that they plan to use for that tournament. This tournament deck will be locked for the week, and will be the deck the tournament duty finder will automatically use for tournament matches. The reason for this is because no card game allows players to switch decks anytime they want during a tournament as part of the skill is both in your ability to make a good deck, and ability to play it.
Step 2: Playing the Tournament
After registering, anyone that registered will have access to the TT duty finder which is used for the TT tournaments. The duty finder will pair players based on their rating so far for that tournament. If it is their first match, the DF would try to pair the player with other players that are also queuing their first match of the tournament as they would not have a rating yet, or as close as possible depending on the other players queuing at the time. Basically it would be a modified swiss structure. Player names would be hidden until post match to prevent win selling. Or like chocobo racing, players could create their own TT name as a mask for their PC name. There should be some kind of elimination so that the 2 top players end up facing each other in the end, but I get the feeling there are too many complications for that to occur, like technical, so you guys would rather have a pool of players playing like you do now instead of narrowing it down like most tournaments. If so, then that part's fine.
Step 3: The Prize (more detail than my topic post)
As I mentioned in the topic, the reward should not include any affect on gameplay, thus making winners even stronger. Here is one scenario related to the reward card: The card is only available to tournament winners/top 3, BUT it is special card vanity of a card everyone has access to. Only the vanity part would be exclusive to the winners, like 2 different versions of the same card. I understand that you guys can't be expected to make new card art super frequently. This is why the winning card would be in cycle for a while, or have a few different reward card art released at the same time and all of them remain in cycle until the next patch or something. The main reward would be the MGP payout. An example of said cycle would be like week 1: Lightning, week 2: Cecil, week 3: Firion, week 4: Lightning, week 5: Cecil, week 6: Firion. This would continue until next patch, so this way the art team would not have to make new exclusive card art until each new patch. As for the regular, non-exclusive versions of those cards, you could have them sell for large amounts of MGP from the card trader, or implement them whatever way you decide as long as everyone can get them. Only the version for winning the tournament cannot be obtained by everyone. Both are the same card with same numbers in all 4 ranks, just a unique art version for winners. I hope this makes sense.
So basically there is a tournament version of a card and regular version, like most card games. This way the gameplay aspect stays fair and level, while the tournament winners get exclusive card art version they can show off, that only they have. So let's say Lightning could be bought for 1m at the card trader, or whatever way you include to get her, the version that has special art can only be obtained via winning it in tournaments. -
03-05-2015, 04:32 PM10TailBeast
SE puts cheating NPCs in TT and now turns a blind eye to humans doing it. Fine game you have there, SE.
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03-05-2015, 04:44 PMHolyheal
Just a quick note, The cheaters wouldn't have 15/15 wins. The best point ratio value in a trading scheme being utilized would put them around 8-10 wins with losses to boost opponents rank before beating them in a rematch scenario (it will net them more points overall). As noted by the guy who got 1920 or so points off 8 wins.
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03-05-2015, 06:26 PMRobinRethiel
Triple Triad is for fun. All should have fun. Give ALL a good reward for participating and the best something more. Not 1k -> 140k and a priceless card. More like 2k -> 10k. People should have fun, not begin to hate each other over it...
It's too important whom you play than how. 15 games, over. "Oops, so I won my games (and with the plus rule, EVERY match is a risk), but got only (f.e.)1250 points, because I somehow played against the wrong people? And how should I know that? And why can't I do more games, fighting the stronger people, so I still get a chance? I didn't lose any - so why did I lose?!"
In addition, if you allow them to fight against stronger people (and maybe you could create a title, which displays their actual points for this week?) to climb up the ladder, the tournament will go on for the whole week. And when you give everyone a nice gift for participating and the winners just a bit more and not the big jackpot, this all will be handled much more civilized. -
03-05-2015, 06:30 PMSnugglebuttThe rules are not the problem the mechanics are, specifically the allowing of players to pick their own opponents...that above all else needs to change. I think almost everyone would be happy (except those who's only interest in the tournament is selling wins) if had three tiers of the tournament, 1 star, 2 star and 3 star decks and make the 'game' select player opponents based on which tier they are taking part in and not let the players pick their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grekumah
Most important thing is remove option of players choosing their own opponents.
Here is what I would do...first and foremost remove the ability for players to choose their own opponents. That is the only way to stop the win buying going on which should not be happening in any tournaments, whether you do that through a roulette system or whatever I don't care as long as you remove the option for players to pick their own opponents.
I would make the tiers something like this...
Tier 1 (The 60+ card category)
First prize for top 3 is the legendary/collector cards + 150,000MGP, second prize for top 4-10 being 10 gold card packs + 100,000MGP, third prize for top 11-20 being 10 silver card packs + 50,000MGP followed by fourth prize for ranked 21-50 which is 10 bronze pack cards + 10,000MGP, the rest get 1000MGP perhaps for taking part provided play all 15 matches in a tournament.
Tier 2 (The 30 to 59 card category)
First prize for top 3 is 100,000MGP, second prize for top 4-10 being 10 gold card packs + 50,000MGP, third prize for top 11-20 being 10 silver card packs + 25,000MGP followed by fourth prize for ranked 21-50 which is 10 bronze pack cards + 5,000MGP, the rest get 1000MGP perhaps for taking part provided play all 15 matches in a tournament.
Tier 3 (The 1 to 29 card category)
First prize for top 3 is 50,000MGP, second prize for top 4-10 being 10 gold card packs + 25,000MGP, third prize for top 11-20 being 10 silver card packs + 15,000MGP followed by fourth prize for ranked 21-50 which is 10 bronze pack cards + 3,000MGP, the rest get 1000MGP perhaps for taking part provided play all 15 matches in a tournament. -
03-05-2015, 06:49 PMKrrIt would be a real pain in the ass to do this 15 times, but ideally what you would do is find 15 high-ELO opponents (through 5-10 wins of their own) and have them sandbag against you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holyheal
In exchange for a lot of gil.
A LOT of gil.
It wouldn't be hard to inflate your invisible-ELO-score-thing by thrashing a high-grade NPC like Elmer a few times either. -
03-05-2015, 07:15 PMLycinderSo only those who farmed 60 cards gets the right to have a chance to get a legendary card?Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebutt
No that's a bit unfair especially with how someone can make a deck with the under 60 limit beat someone with over 60 cards especially with the first tourny being All Open and plus rule, what we need is something like the elo system which will sort you into tiers based off your previous experience in tournaments therefore people will be better suited against their opponents and still have a good chance at a collectors card without having to rely on rng bull to get to 60 cards. -
03-05-2015, 07:21 PMSnugglebuttIt is not unfair at all, they are legendary/collector cards first and foremost so anyone who actually cares a lot about collecting cards would try to get enough to take part in that category in the first place plus the main reason I did not put that in all three tiers is to stop people abusing the system by making quick and easy lvl 15 alts (which takes only a couple hours to do) and spamming the tournament over and over in the lowest tier for the legendary/collector card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycinder
There would be no point fixing the buying wins problem if replace that problem with another kind of problem which is the making alt quick characters spamming the lowest tier for the same level of reward as the highest tier top prize gets. By keeping it MGP+card pack related for the lower tiers that would help them build up a nice size deck through buying and winning of the B/S/G packs so that in the next tournament they would be closer to the top tier and by proxy their chances of the legendary/collector cards through hard work and not through abusing the system whether that is from buying wins or making many quick lvl 15 alts and spamming the lowest tier for the highest tier top prize. -
03-05-2015, 07:32 PMLycinderWhat I am trying to get at is the fact a skilled player stuck with the under 60 card limit could beat someone with the over 60 card limit, it should not be how much you are willing to do the mindnumbing grind to get to 60 cards but how skilled you are which decides which bracket you belong to,I didn't say give the lower brackets the collectors cards I said don't hide the bracket behind RNG bull because there are some people (like me) who have reached the point where to get the 60 they need to grind endlessly on npcs with horrible drop rate or be super lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebutt
Actually I mean how dare you say that because I have under 60 cards I don't care about collecting the cards -grumble grumble rng bull grumble grumble- -
03-05-2015, 08:27 PMNoumoIndeed. On Shiva the guy who is well-known for paying for all of his wins is now hated by mostly everyone. I'm not sorry for him though 'cause he's also provocative, e.g. he flamed me after I didn't accept his attemp to bribe me for my losing against him, but if I look impartial into the whole scenario it is a shame that something is implemented into the game which allows to create such situations while SE states that such behavior isn't disallowed and even rewards those people with an exclusive card so they feel approved in their unsportsmanlike behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinRethiel
Dear SE staff members, please stop the distribution of earnings (especially the lightning-card) at once or the current uproar will even deepen and a fine new feature to the game, the Triple Triad Game, will leave a bad taste in the mouth to a great, GREAT bunch of players. -
03-06-2015, 12:40 AMNashred
Anyone who thinks its ok to buy wins really should have your morals checked.
I hope in the end they ban these people if they are caught even though they probably wont.
They need to start perma banning people like they did in FFXI for using exploits. -
03-06-2015, 01:27 AMJayCommonMaybe not, but I believe in innocent until proven guilty. I am not the one declaring to completely nix an entire competition based on biased point of view for whatever may or may not be happening on your server, I look at the bigger picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
If you deny legit winners the card, you can possibly lose their sub forever. How can you not realize that some people take this very seriously?
You can call it naive all you want, but it's realism. You don't have to like it, but I'm sorry, cancelling the entire tournament across all worlds because there may be rampant cheating going on in some of the servers is not the correct way to go about fixing this. That's my opinion. If this is the only way you feel this week's tournament can be reconciled, an investigation by SE needs be undertaken to determine which players cheated, and then punish those people. I will never be in favor of laying down heavy-handed judgement based off of unfounded assumptions (of EVERYONE in the top cheating) that sweeps across the board, negatively affecting any player who didn't rightly deserve it.
Btw, I dropped to 4th place, I'm already out of the Lightning race this week. I didn't really think my score would stand the whole week anyway. The person who skipped me is still not a win trader. No one on our top 20 board is a win trader. And I already outlined in my first (lengthy, so you may have missed it) post, that my opinions remain unchanged even knowing that win traders could take over the top 3 spots of my board from anywhere between now and the 10th. If someone in 1st place on a small random server out there legit earned it, I will not be the one to advocate taking the card out of that person's hands.
Unless SE can unequivocally determine that every single server's top 3 were all win traders, I will stand against this point of view. I would totally be OK with the investigation bit I mentioned above to actually punish the win traders. I am not OK with a punishment directed at win traders being doled out to everyone and potentially affecting people who don't deserve it.
The format definitely does need to be changed, though. -
03-06-2015, 01:51 AMSenjougahara
Please just void this tournament, restructure it, then relaunch in the future. I'm sure many would rather play no tournament than a broken one.
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03-06-2015, 01:54 AMCuratio_MagusQuote:
Originally Posted by JayCommon
A) Nobody has won or lost yet
B) If you believe that someone will unsub strictly, and only because they failed to gain a single card that they very well may not have won in the first place, hasn't actually even won yet, and will be able to win again in the future... then you must believe more subs would be lost by allowing what many believe to be cheaters winning the cards
Your argument is not valid.
You have just as much an all-or-nothing mentality as those that say "unless you can guarantee that no cheater is getting a card, then I do not support this".
Just clarifying.