It's time to reevaluate the idea of adding a PLEX/Chronoscroll-like system to FFXIV

I really don't want to repeat that linked thread of 1.0, I've learned how I want to approach these forums and less keyboard warrioring feels better . . .lol

So in a non quoting non insulting response to some posts. In a game like, say Diablo 3, where you can literally buy items with cash - what is the difference between one more step(s) where cash is dungeons which is to items.

Something like:

Cash -> Gil -> Dungeon -> Item(?), where ? is a random item of a set loot table (end game dungeons included, since at least on Balmung there are groups who can run you through it - and sell the items to you)
Cash -> Item

Transitive property we have Cash -> Item(?) and Cash -> Item. So is the distinction for people is that you can't control the (?). So something like those random chests, or lottery items, that you can buy with real money that have a chance for big items is not actually P2W? I mean you can say no it is not, I would disagree but thats fine lol.

Imo, if you can use cash to pay for items that are considered winning (pay, to, win) and you can trade money for in game money (real, money, trade), then it should be against TOS and not supported. Supporting it would then be to support RMT and p2w. Of course I've seen varying definitions for both of these, some more used by players, some more used by developers, and new definitions growing from time. I think it is not fair to say it is not p2w or rmt //IF// you consider buying items or trading money for in game money as negatives. Sometimes seen RMT is strictly third party and nothing sanctioned within game (also dislike, since say in Diablo 3 you can trade real money as a player and it was sanctioned - but that definition would also change the approach to conversation).

I've seen one definition of p2w was "exclusive" benefits - I suppose in that scenario it is not p2w, but I don't like or agree with that definition as it opens up many opportunities for cash shop. "You can earn that in game with a .00001% chance drop, best item in the game, or you can pay $10". It is true that FCOB has a lockout, but is not true that you can't pay for a group of players to run you through the dungeon and can buy the items rights too - at least on my server I've seen the opportunity nearly daily from different groups of players. And, SE is going away with the lockout so it will be interesting to see how it changes the scenario.

Oh god no. Total pay to win. I hated it in EVE. It'd probably actually lead me to looking for greener pastures if they implemented it.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Yoshi-P. It was designed that way. Just because YOU think it's a "feature" that should be available to everyone doesn't mean that's how it was actually designed and mean to be. Check your assumptions.

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Like that, except NOT? Can you show me where Yoshi-P stated that housing was meant to be a "reward for massive effort put into gil making"? I can show you a quote of him saying otherwise, right here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Housing-Prices

The TL;DR is: the prices are inflated so the 1%ers don't buy all the land available by the first hours. As always, the 1%era are a PROBLEM to be dealt with, and nobody at SE encourages the hoarding of gil. If anything, PLEX would encourage distribution of gil.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Going f2p kinda disproves your point. It obviously wasn't doing that well.

You failed to prove anything other than other games that used it clearly didn't succeed very well. It doesn't support using such a system in this game at all. If anything it's more reasons why we shouldn't do it.

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Wildstar's problems were that it was a very difficult game aimed at people who like their games to be hard, which turned out to be a too small of a niche market for the game to be profitable. It had NOTHING to do with C.R.E.D.D. And TERA's NA publisher got ORDERS from the korean developer, BlueHole Studios, to make the game F2P as they had done in Korea. The game was doing fairly well at the time. Your point is completely and utterly moot.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

a bunch of stuff

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You left out the part of Wildstar where....

1. Game mechanics broken.
2. Repeatable quests trapping you in same zones for over 10 levels.
3. Mundane gameplay
4. Broken Pvp
5. Rampant exploits
6. Rampant hacking and abusing a broke pvp mechanic.
7. Unfinished endgame ( Does a handful of events count as end game ? )
8. Pisspoor customer service similar to how Trion deals with exploiters ( ban the reporters, not the exploiters )

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Originally Posted by Anesjka

You left out the part of Wildstar where....

<list>

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Oh yeah, that too.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

The game was doing fairly well at the time. Your point is completely and utterly moot.

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1. At no time was Tera ever doing fairly well. It never broke any top 20 in subscriber numbers, and was borderline porn...and dont even get me started on Elin.
People stayed away from Tera because unlike most 15 year old boys, people like playing a MMO with MMO elements to it, not a MMO with porn elements to it.
Not to mention, the game just wasnt done very good.
A half nude Elin riding a ostrich with a rainbow afro listening to headphones... Free Realms much ?

Tera was all over the place and couldnt carve out its own identity. I still have Tera installed and when you log in, you see the same 300 or so people in chat that you seen 4 months ago, no new names, and 200 of them standing in the city BSing...

We love FFXIV the way it is. We do not want to see a in game option added, the doors be let open and Bots and Hackers manage to buy their way to subs with in game items and down goes the economy.
No thank you....

End of story.

/thread

Look,

I am really trying not to be mean here. But if you think this game has any RMT or Bot problems right now. You havent seen anything yet. Neverwinter, Tera, Archeage.... the list goes on.

You give the RMT Kids ( Yes its 18-24 yr olds running these sites and programs usually ) .... You give these RMT kids a in game way to subscribe, and they will spam your chat with tells for Gil sites 40 times an hour, maybe more.
Multiple sites, multiple bots...bots warping all around by the hundreds doing quest lines to keep their gil coffers filled.... warping..hacking..exploiting

Which means now you must designate GM and Customer service to handling these, which takes time away from development and customer issues...

It's a stack of dominoes....

You open the door on something like this...and everything falls in a matter of time.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

So, in a sense, I didn't "earn" my house by playing the game for countless hours. And in your sense of judgement, that should be the only way people can have houses in the game. If I buy a house with PLEX money, that's "cheating".

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Okay, so let me start off by reminding you of the current housing situation. Currently, there are not even close to enough plots to support the demand of people who want to buy a house. Now lets suppose your plex system was in place before the massive land grab happened, or is implemented before the next wave of housing wards become available.

People who desperately want housing purchase a ton of tokens with real life money, sell them for gil, and buy up all the housing before people who want to earn gil in-game are able to do so and are able to afford to buy a house. Housing now turns into a situation where people who are essentially buying gil are rewarded, and those who want to earn it through in-game activities are screwed. You really want a system where your ability or inability to spend more real life funds on this game determines your ability to experience in-game "privileges"? That’s not a game I want to play.

Regardless of whether or not you think you should have to “earn” a house, that’s how it is. You need to expend some effort to be able to save the gil to be able to afford one. You want to be able to skip the effort part by being able to pay for it with real life money.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

You 1%ers really are very much alike your real-life counterparts. It's always all about retaining your priviledges.

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This point seems hilarious, as you are basically just trying to shift the "retaining of privileges" from people who acquire gil in-game through various methods (ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME) , to people who have an excess amount of money in real-life and who are willing to spend it on a game while putting forth no in-game effort whatsoever. Since this is a game, I want my effort in-game to dictate my rewards, not what I do outside of it.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Like that, except NOT? Can you show me where Yoshi-P stated that housing was meant to be a "reward for massive effort put into gil making"?

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He's done a bunch of interviews so I'll try. Might be tough though since there are so many.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Wildstar's problems were that it was a very difficult game aimed at people who like their games to be hard.....

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You can not put a failing game on the great example pedastool. It's impossible to separate it's rmt feature from the other problems so we must take the game and its popularity at face value. It did poorly. A good example of sanctioned rmt it in no way makes.

All else aside, this would be way too much pay to win as long as SE includes things like the materia step in the Relic quest. I'd sure as shit pay other people's subs so I don't have to buy or SB materia. I've got more money than gil.

While I do find some merit in many of your points this would still end up pay to win. There are plenty of people that buy runs and giving them a legitimate way of essentially buying the gil would only make that happen even more.

And while the gil supply might not increase, the concentration of where it is could still cause inflation. The people buying gil could easily push up the prices on a select few items, and when they run out of gil they just sell more game time to the people they bought the stuff of of and the gil would just keep changing hands between very few people essentially locking out most of the rest of the playerbase from those markets.

This might work in EVE where the market is a big big part of the game, but I don't think it would work in FFXIV. Even WoW with it's bigger playerbase might be able to diminish the effects but I could see this very easily wrecking some of the smaller servers here.

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Originally Posted by chrillix

People who desperately want housing purchase a ton of tokens with real life money, sell them for gil

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OMG, you really believe there is so many people out there willing to shell out 100s of dollars just to become a game's real state speculator? Oh wow, now we're going inside the realm of insanity. This is NOT going to happen. People who work and have jobs and family don't normally throw away money at a computer screen that easily. Unless you're talking about someone who's handsomely rich IRL. How many of those you believe there are in a single server? Please.

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Originally Posted by chrillix

I want my effort in-game to dictate my rewards, not what I do outside of it.

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So you go and do it! PLEX wouldn't hurt the economy in any way, if much it'd help LOWER inflation, cuz of the massive gil sink it would be. As in, the gil YOU are not sinking would be given to someone who will. Your ability to make gill wouldn't be hurt in any way thinkable. Stop worrying so much about how other people are gonna get their stuff.

Stop thinking that because you are younger or have more free time you have the right to be a special snowflake, entitled to not having more ppl into your exclusive club. Newsflash, you don't.

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Originally Posted by Juneri

I could see this very easily wrecking some of the smaller servers here.

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Actually, as the price for it is mostly player-regulated, a PLEX in a small server would be sold to a much smaller value than it is sold in a big server...

Oh yeah, and about TERA, it had a very expressive playerbase at launch. It's selling point NEVER was the Elin porn, the majority of player characters aren't even Elin. It was the action-oriented, kingdom-hearts-esque combat with no tab targeting. Still is to this day, BTW.

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Originally Posted by Juneri

While I do find some merit in many of your points this would still end up pay to win. There are plenty of people that buy runs and giving them a legitimate way of essentially buying the gil would only make that happen even more.

...

This might work in EVE where the market is a big big part of the game, but I don't think it would work in FFXIV. Even WoW with it's bigger playerbase might be able to diminish the effects but I could see this very easily wrecking some of the smaller servers here.

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Oh come on, this is already happening. Ever heard of buying coil or primal ex run? Heck, the nutters who can HQ 4-star items, these people are pooling points for wealth.

You should also note that people selling game time for gil, compete among themselves and pull down the price, limiting the amount of gil they can make.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

OMG, you really believe there is so many people out there willing to shell out 100s of dollars just to become a game's real state speculator? Oh wow, now we're going inside the realm of insanity. This is NOT going to happen. People who work and have jobs and family don't normally throw away money at a computer screen that easily. Unless you're talking about someone who's handsomely rich IRL. How many of those you believe there are in a single server? Please.

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Housing was just one example of what this system could be used to ruin. Judging by the amount of people that had PF adds up to sell Platinum Bands for gil, I'd say there are quite a few people who would actually do this.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

So you go and do it! PLEX wouldn't hurt the economy in any way, if much it'd help LOWER inflation, cuz of the massive gil sink it would be. As in, the gil YOU are not sinking would be given to someone who will. Your ability to make gill wouldn't be hurt in any way thinkable. Stop worrying so much about how other people are gonna get their stuff.

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I agree that my ability to make gil wouldn't be hurt. In fact, my ability to make gil would probably increase as people looking to spend gil would just buy PLEX, sell it, then have more gil to spend. Do I think that's proper? Absolutely not. Not hurting the economy? You are giving someone the ability to directly influence the economy by buying gil that they normally wouldn't be able to recieve. They can then use that gil to manipulate the economy in ways they normally wouldn't be able to.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Stop thinking that because you are younger or have more free time you have the right to be a special snowflake, entitled to not having more ppl into your exclusive club. Newsflash, you don't.

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That is a huge assumption on your part, and completely false. You know nothing about me. I don't have loads of free time, but I'm very good at making gil with the small amounts of time I have. How about this? Stop thinking that because you have extra money to spend, that you should be able to acquire everything in-game that you want without actually playing the game. If you aren't willing to put in the time to get what you want, then you really need to find a new genre of game to play. As for being entitled? Yes I definitely feel "entitled" to having more than someone who doesn't want to put any effort into the game, but instead wants it given to them on account of how much disposable real life income they have.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

OMG, you really believe there is so many people out there willing to shell out 100s of dollars just to become a game's real state speculator?

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I don't know how you went from people buying houses because they want one (which was clearly the context of his sentence) to people shelling out thousands and buying every plot. Escalate things much for no reason? Oh that's right. That how straw men are created. Keep what he said in context please since your over exaggerations don't really help.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

So you go and do it! PLEX wouldn't hurt the economy in any way, if much it'd help LOWER inflation, cuz of the massive gil sink it would be.

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You clearly have no idea how game economies work if you really think it wouldn't hurt the economy "in any way" and that you actually think it would lower inflation. That's really ignorant of how things actually work in the real world.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

As in, the gil YOU are not sinking would be given to someone who will. Your ability to make gill wouldn't be hurt in any way thinkable.

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This is why I know you don't understand how economies work. Inflation happens when too much money is spread around the economy. When other people have too much money they are more willing to spend it on items which in turn makes the price of goods increase. That is literally inflation. So yes, I do worry about how other people make money since the effect on the economy directly effects me every single day. You should care too.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Your ability to make gill wouldn't be hurt in any way thinkable. Stop worrying so much about how other people are gonna get their stuff.

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This is a distraction. Trying to put up that other person as a paragon of selfishness when the first crime is you not understand how MMO economies work. As you showed us with the previous examples.

I said no when people like OP challenged this in beta.

I said hell no when people like OP challenged this at launch.

I say hell TF no when people like OP challenge this now.

As Yoshida has inferred on multiple occasions, and I agree, I would rather see this game die... than let people exploit a loophole around paying to play.

...and this is the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

I have been steadily subscribed since the Alpha of this game, and this idea ...

would 100% end my subscription forever.

I worry this would promote rmt more actually.

Look at it this way.

(on my server)
Platinum wedding cost 25$.
People sell it for 2-3m(from what I've heard.)

Plex would be $15(just to make it easy)

So would sell for (assumably) around 800-1.5m

RMT sell 1m for like 5$.

*this would cause something like this next statement to happen*

"OK so I am poor. I can out 5$ to rmt for 1m and buy a month of game that would be 15$. Let's just do that every month."

This now rmt is now getting more money and putting more shouts/bits in our game.


So I say no thanks to Plex.

Put me down as being against the idea. Its not needed. It has no upsides to the game as a whole. It causes inflation in the game economy. So tired of peolpe wanting to fast tract everything in games these days. Instant gratification seems to trump the process, yet instant gratification also leads to the death of games and communities. Games are much more meaningful and fun when you work and earn things through playing, rather than just being able to instantly grab them.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I don't know how you went from people buying houses because they want one (which was clearly the context of his sentence) to people shelling out thousands and buying every plot. Escalate things much for no reason? Oh that's right. That how straw men are created. Keep what he said in context please since your over exaggerations don't really help.

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Actually, that argument is not of my own crafting, it's chrillix's:

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Originally Posted by chrillix

People who desperately want housing purchase a ton of tokens with real life money, sell them for gil, and buy up all the housing before people who want to earn gil in-game are able to do so and are able to afford to buy a house.

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If you want to rebuke it, target it to the right person. Except I don't believe you would, since he's on the same side of the argument and you would have no reason to discredit someone who's arguing in your favor. But then again, I might be wrong. I'll give you the chance to correct your mistake.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

You clearly have no idea how game economies work if you really think it wouldn't hurt the economy "in any way" and that you actually think it would lower inflation. That's really ignorant of how things actually work in the real world.

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Citation needed. This is just an empty, passive-agressive response with no actual points given. The real argument is in the next quote, so it's best if I adress it where it's due:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

This is why I know you don't understand how economies work. Inflation happens when too much money is spread around the economy. Why other people have too much money they are more willing to spend it on items which in turn makes the price of goods increase. That is literally inflation.

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And that's how YOU prove you don't know nothing about economics. I could say I laughed at your statement, but that would be me being passive-agressive, and I rather not step to that level. Anyhow, Let me give you an Economics 101 about it, since you clearly have no idea: Inflation, in general, is devaluing of currency, most often because of an oversupply of money in the system. As the laws of supply and demand tells us, if you have too much of a thing available, its value lessens. When that happens to MONEY, that's called inflation. It's not the value of stuff that went up, it's your money that's worth less and the prices went up to make up for it. In the real world, it happens, among other reasons, when governments print too much money, something that happens for a multitude of reasons that do not pertain to that discussion.

ANYHOW, in MMOs, inflation is kept at check with a careful balance of money fountains (ways money is created out of nothing into the game, like quests, mob drops, etc.) and money sinks (ways money is ERASED from the game, like NPC shops, and house-buying). It's a system pretty well illustrated in laymen's terms in a wonderful and didatic video by the guys at Extra Credits, available on youtube right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W39TtF14i8I

The TL: DR; of this topic is: people hoarding gil are much more hurtful to the economy that your so-called "distribution" of gil, which is actually healthy. The 1%ers have a tendency to turn everything in-game into a luxury market, excluding most people from the markets and inflating prices to unbeliavable levels. You really cannot argue that 2.5 million gil for a 2-star crafting material is a sign of a healthy economy.

Now, I'm just gonna reiterate my argument, for the sake of staying on topic, that PLEX would help the economy by taking money that would be piling up in someone's wallet, and giving it to someone who will most likely spend it on a money sink, erasing that sum of gil from the economy and helping lower inflation. Now check that argument against your new-found knowledge, and understand what I was really talking about. No need to thank me.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

This is a distraction. Trying to put up that other person as a paragon of selfishness when the first crime is you not understand how MMO economies work. As you showed us with the previous examples.

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Actually, it is what it is: an 1%er trying to keep his clubhouse exclusive. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Actually, that argument is not of my own crafting, it's chrillix's:



If you want to rebuke it, target it to the right person. Except I don't believe you would, since he's on the same side of the argument and you would have no reason to discredit someone who's arguing in your favor. But then again, I might be wrong. I'll give you the chance to correct your mistake.

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In my example, I did not mean one person buying up an entire ward. That is actually *almost* impossible. I mean't several PLEX buyers, each buying their own plot.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

If you want to rebuke it, target it to the right person. Except I don't believe you would, since he's on the same side of the argument and you would have no reason to discredit someone who's arguing in your favor. But then again, I might be wrong. I'll give you the chance to correct your mistake.

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No, I meant you. His sentence is clearly referring to people in the sense of an individual in the crowd. And specifically one who is desperate enough to buy something like Plex just to buy a house. He in no way suggested a single person would spend thousands and becoming a housing mogul. That was all you taking what he said out of context and to an extreme.

Even Chrillix backs this up. You were incorrect in your interpretation of his words.

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Originally Posted by chrillix

In my example, I did not mean one person buying up an entire ward. That is actually *almost* impossible. I mean't several PLEX buyers, each buying their own plot.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Citation needed. This is just an empty, passive-agressive response with no actual points given. The real argument is in the next quote, so it's best if I adress it where it's due:

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Do you have difficulty reading the entire document before writing up these little blurbs. Read the whole thing and respond. No reason to pick 1 sentence out and comment about how it fails to do something I said a few lines later. I separated it into 2 quotes to make a line of reasoning and for emphasis. Keep up. I know it's tough.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Inflation, in general, is devaluing of currency, most often because of an oversupply of money in the system. As the laws of supply and demand tells us, if you have too much of a thing available, its value lessens. When that happens to MONEY, that leads to inflation.

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Did you even read what I said?

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

When other people have too much money they are more willing to spend it on items which in turn makes the price of goods increase. That is literally inflation.

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The price of goods increase because of the devaluation of the money. I said exactly what you said but I didn't go to a text book first. I doesn't make what I said a less accurate depiction of inflation and you any less nit picky to try and act like what I said doesn't describe inflation.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

In the real world, it happens, among other reasons, when governments print too much money

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Like literally what this thread is trying to do?

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Actually, it is what it is: an 1%er trying to keep his clubhouse exclusive. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Don't have a house and don't want one. Keep making assumptions though. Just because I disagree with your premise doesn't immediately make me a memeber of your '1%.' That's a flat out assumption and blatant logical fallacy on your part. Disagreeing with you makes me nothing more and nothing less than simply a person disagreeing with you.

Seems like a serious series reading comprehension fails here. Not just at what I said but at what others have said.

I also find it funny how often you call me passive aggressive when I explicitly came here, quoted you, and called you out on specific details in a very direct clearly not passive manner. Do you even know what passive aggressive means?

Exchangeable game time is actually one of the most effective means to combating RMT, as it sets a standard value to in-game currency based around it. Gil sellers would be forced to match the value or lose business to SE's legit trade.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Read the whole thing and respond. No reason to pick 1 sentence out and comment

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Oh, you mean, like you started doing? This thread is going places...

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Like literally what this thread is trying to do?

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WHAT??????
No, no, stop the presses. Please, enlighten me on how PLEX would be considered a money fountain. You had my interest, now you have my curiosity. Please, tell me how exactly a system designed around the TRANSFER of money from one player to another would CREATE money into the system. I'm really curious.

Also, your argument about inflation is akin to saying that in the real world, a middle class with more buying power hurts the economy and causes inflation. That, sir, was priceless. I'm actually starting to believe you're a 1%er in real life.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Oh, you mean, like you started doing? This thread is going places..

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I separated it into 2 quotes to make a line of reasoning and for emphasis. Keep up. I know it's tough.

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Do you even forum? This isn't new or unique. I tire of the childlike way you want to nitpick everything but the substance of the argument. Even now you ignore all the inconvenient parts of the response and fail to acknowledge even the slightest fault you've clearly made.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

WHAT??????
No, no, stop the presses. Please, enlighten me on how PLEX would be considered a money fountain. You had my interest, now you have my curiosity. Please, tell me how exactly a system designed around the TRANSFER of money from one player to another would CREATE money into the system. I'm really curious.

Also, your argument about inflation is akin to saying that in the real world, a middle class with more buying power hurts the economy and causes inflation. That, sir, was priceless. I'm actually starting to believe you're a 1%er in real life.

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This thread is clearly and explicitly asking for a Flex style system right?

https://secure.eveonline.com/plex/

The first words you see across the page. "BUY PLEX, USE PLEX SERVICES, TRADE PLEX FOR ISK"

My point is made. I'm out.

Oh, c'mon, I still wanted to hear about how those damn liberals are about to send Eorzea into recession!

If i'd take a guess, I'd say you started playing in Ul'Dah, right? Send Lord Lolorito my compliments :D
But then again, I tought all Monetarists were Lalafells...

EDIT: Oh yeah, Godbert is human. Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Oh, c'mon, I still wanted to hear about how those damn liberals are about to send Eorzea into recession!

If i'd take a guess, I'd say you started playing in Ul'Dah, right? Send Lord Lolorito my compliments :D
But then again, I tought all Monetarists were Lalafells...

EDIT: Oh yeah, Godbert is human. Fair enough.

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Wow man. Turning to insults now? That work out often for you when you aren't making a good case?

I started in Gridania, still live in Gridania, have less than 1 mil to my name, don't have a house, and don't intend to buy a house. Stop making assumptions about people solely because they disagree with you.

No. A "EVE Plex" type system would never work in this game. It works for EVE because there is a massive economy that is a major part of the game. You can play this game and never open the market board to sell anything... ever! A Plex system is a wonderful idea as an alternative payment system but not for FFXIV:ARR. This is coming from playing EVE for 2 to 3 years and spend over half of that paid by Plex.

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

Exchangeable game time is actually one of the most effective means to combating RMT, as it sets a standard value to in-game currency based around it. Gil sellers would be forced to match the value or lose business to SE's legit trade.

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I'll quote myself for you

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

I worry this would promote rmt more actually.

Look at it this way.

(on my server)
Platinum wedding cost 25$.
People sell it for 2-3m(from what I've heard.)

Plex would be $15(just to make it easy)

So would sell for (assumably) around 800-1.5m

RMT sell 1m for like 5$.

*this would cause something like this next statement to happen*

"OK so I am poor. I can out 5$ to rmt for 1m and buy a month of game that would be 15$. Let's just do that every month."

This now rmt is now getting more money and putting more shouts/bits in our game.


So I say no thanks to Plex.

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THIS is what would end up happening, could promise it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

I'll quote myself for you


THIS is what would end up happening, could promise it.

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Unless (and I am on neither side of the fence) SE goes with WoW's method where THEY decide how much their version of Plex goes for in gil. Players will supply it and reap the in game rewards but they have no direct control over the pricing.

I didn't insult anybody. It was just a humorous response aimed at your behaviour.

Anyhow, your point against ISK still fails to comply to reality. Not a single ISK was created in EVE online with the advent of PLEX.

I'm gonna try to explain PLEX to you, how it would work in FFXIV in a very clear manner:

1-) Bill is a lawyer IRL, and he likes to play FFXIV with his character "Loaded Rich", a Hyur White Mage. He'd like to have more gil to buy a house and materias for his DoH classes, but he's burning the midnight oil at work many more times than he'd like to.

2-) Little Timmy is 16 years old, and he had to quit school for a year to treat a very bad kidney infection. He also likes to play FFXIV and has all classes @ 50, plus a net worth of 60 million gil. Little Timmy has just so much time in his hands, being bedside and all. His family is kinda poor, tho, and they could use those $15 spent on Timmy's subscription to buy medicine. But the game just makes him so happy, it's doing wonders for him not to sink into depression.

Now, PLEX is the answer to BOTH Bill and Timmy. Timmy can now play for FREE, thanks to all the gil he's amassed, and Bill can buy his dreamhouse by the lake with TIMMY'S money. Not money created out of thin air, like a real money fountain (like a levequest or a duty roulette run) would do, but money that ALREADY EXISTED on the system, IN TIMMY'S CHARACTER, which will DISAPPEAR from the world the minute Bill buys his house. Money that would otherwise be kept in Timmy's account.

And, as I said before, a number of times, balancing out fountains and sinks is what's really the secret of a healthy MMO economy.

NOW, did you FINALLY get it?

I understand how it works just fine and your sob story changes nothing about a single thing I said. Keep assuming I don't get it though. I disagree with you. Deal with it.

Reading this thread, it's pretty sad to see all the silly strawmen being propped up by people utterly horrified by the notion of change. The PLEX system works and it works well. And a lot of the industry giants are beginning to take serious note. And if Blizzard really does go through with making their own equivalent system like they have said they are, expect it to show up here soon enough.

And Tiggy clearly has zero understanding of how the system works, even though it's been explained in extremely simple terms repeatedly. If you believe that something that literally creates zero in-game money can cause in-game inflation, then I am entirely able to understand why you're incapable of making in-game money in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

I didn't insult anybody. It was just a humorous response aimed at your behaviour.

Anyhow, your point against ISK still fails to comply to reality. Not a single ISK was created in EVE online with the advent of PLEX.

I'm gonna try to explain PLEX to you, how it would work in FFXIV in a very clear manner:

1-) Bill is a lawyer IRL, and he likes to play FFXIV with his character "Loaded Rich", a Hyur White Mage. He'd like to have more gil to buy a house and materias for his DoH classes, but he's burning the midnight oil at work many more times than he'd like to.

2-) Little Timmy is 16 years old, and he had to quit school for a year to treat a very bad kidney infection. He also likes to play FFXIV and has all classes @ 50, plus a net worth of 60 million gil. Little Timmy has just so much time in his hands, being bedside and all. His family is kinda poor, tho, and they could use those $15 spent on Timmy's subscription to buy medicine. But the game just makes him so happy, it's doing wonders for him not to sink into depression.

Now, PLEX is the answer to BOTH Bill and Timmy. Timmy can now play for FREE, thanks to all the gil he's amassed, and Bill can buy his dreamhouse by the lake with TIMMY'S money. Not money created out of thin air, like a real money fountain (like a levequest or a duty roulette run) would do, but money that ALREADY EXISTED on the system, IN TIMMY'S CHARACTER, which will DISAPPEAR from the world the minute Bill buys his house. Money that would otherwise be kept in Timmy's account.

And, as I said before, a number of times, balancing out fountains and sinks is what's really the secret of a healthy MMO economy.

NOW, did you FINALLY get it?

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Now we have Jon. Jon and his friends have been playing ffxiv semi-regularly. They decide to band together and spend their in-game time raising gil so they can buy a house for their FC. After a month of saving, they finally have enough for their house!! Oh wait, what's this? Bill used his real life money to buy up the last plot?!

Yeah, I'll pass on that kind of a situation being brought into this game. People with time to play the game shouldn't be screwed over by people who don't.

I understand how it works just fine and your sob story changes nothing about a single thing I said. Keep assuming I don't get it though. I disagree with you. Deal with it.

Nice try attempting to appeal to my emotions with that sob story instead of making an actual point about how it won't effect the economy. I'll just leave this here. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Emotional_appeal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Now, PLEX is the answer to BOTH Bill and Timmy. Timmy can now play for FREE, thanks to all the gil he's amassed, and Bill can buy his dreamhouse by the lake with TIMMY'S money. Not money created out of thin air, like a real money fountain (like a levequest or a duty roulette run) would do, but money that ALREADY EXISTED on the system, IN TIMMY'S CHARACTER, which will DISAPPEAR from the world the minute Bill buys his house. Money that would otherwise be kept in Timmy's account.

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You DO realize money has to actually move around and be spent to have an economy right? Right? In your above scenario those two players aren't doing a thing to stimulate the games economy and you think that's a good thing? Really?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Intaki

by people utterly horrified by the notion of change.

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Best assumption in the whole thread by far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Intaki

The PLEX system works and it works well.

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By all means show a different game other than Eve where such a system works. Eve's economy is very different from normal MMOs after all. So far only Tera and Wildstar have been presented as normal MMOs and quite honestly both of those games aren't doing so well and so they don't make very good examples since we can't separate out the specific effect the RMT system had on player satisfaction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I disagree with you. Deal with it.

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You are welcome to disagree all you want. What you can't do, however, is use this forum to spread false information. Willingly or unwillingly.
PLEX/Chronoscroll/C.R.E.D.D/WoW Tokens are NOT money fountains, in the sense that they create money into the system. They simply are not.
This is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of hard facts.

This seems like a terrible idea and definitely more than a nod to pay to win. If this game ever goes pay to win along these lines, me, my wife and our son will all be out of here as quickly as we can lapse our subs. I can name a dozen more players who'd be right behind us too.


All this does is create a way to funnel real money into game items through the indirect means of purchasing and exchanging 'PLEX' cards for some in-game compensation from another player. So someone with a lot of money available can buy tons of these 'PLEX' cards and exchange them for items or services from players in-game. Hence allowing players to buy progress with cash - albeit indirectly. That is straight up pay to win.

As for the idea that this somehow kills off RMT, it does nothing of the sort, all it does is alter the economics of gill farming/selling for RMTs. In fact as someone else pointed out, it also provides a way for RMTs to keep their accounts alive without the use of cash.

In a way, (because of their botting capability) this system would make RMT a self sustaining proposition which requires little initial outlay. The RMT could fund their subscription time using 'PLEX' cards bought with their 'bot farmed gil. But, because they are 'botting the living crap out of the game, they still have plenty of gil left over to sell for real hard cash to other players as well.

The most that this system would do to RMT is lower the price point they could sell gil at, but then it also reduces their costs of operating, so their return on investment is actually maintained thanks to the 'PLEX' system being advocated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

You are welcome to disagree all you want. What you can't do, however, is use this forum to spread false information. Willingly or unwillingly.
PLEX/Chronoscroll/C.R.E.D.D/WoW Tokens are NOT money fountains, in the sense that they create money into the system. They simply are not.
This is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of hard facts.

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Like all those factual statements you made that myself and others debunked and you haven't taken a shred of personal responsibility for? Right right. You're a saint. Lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

By all means show a different game other than Eve where such a system works. Eve's economy is very different from normal MMOs after all. So far only Tera and Wildstar have been presented as normal MMOs and quite honestly both of those games aren't doing so well and so they don't make very good examples since we can't separate out the specific effect the RMT system had on player satisfaction.

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It absolutely worked in Wildstar. Whatever you think of the game or its lack of commercial success, the in-game economy was vibrant and fairly booming. Luxuries were expensive, but never out of reach. And a CREDD could be easily bought by simply doing your dailies for not even a whole month. Sometimes the price went up, sometimes it went down, but it was never the horrific dystopia you seem to think it would be.