Community - The Most Likely Cause of the Game's Downfall

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Originally Posted by Kallera

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Originally Posted by Aldora

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Why is talking about rudeness worse than being rude?

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I’m sorry, but i’m not sure what you are getting at? It would’ve helped if you left in the part you wanted to comment on.

My guess is that you are referring to this part:

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Originally Posted by Aldora

But, please. For the love of The Twelve… Don’t make a fuss of it when they say “No” or when they get the loot instead.

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If that’s the case, then i’m afraid that you’ve missed the point i was trying to make. That sentence was not directed to the thread itself but more about the result of the action taken based on the situation(s) i’ve described within that same post.

What i was referring to were the responses you usually get within the game if something doesn’t go the way they like it. For example, i’ve seen a few cases where 2 players were bickering about which strategy to use to beat a boss battle. It started with a disagreement, but it escalated into a heated discussion with lots of indecent name calling.

That was the “fuss” i was referring to.

I never said anything that was remotely connected to a statement that “talking about rudeness” would be worse than “being rude”. “Being rude” towards others is inexcusable, but you cannot “fix” someone else’s manners. We can only try to get along with one another.

“One should treat others in a manner in which they themselves would like to be treated.”

“Respect for ourselves guides our morals, respect for others guides our manners.”

And the moral of your responses are: Being helpful is a crime.

Should disband most communities in-game now. You heard it from the Forums!

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Originally Posted by Nymeia

And the moral of your responses are: Being helpful is a crime.

Should disband most communities in-game now. You heard it from the Forums!

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Hyperbole doesn't make your point more sound. It just shows you are frustrated and defensive. GG.

You do realize that they intentionally add those items to the GC expert delivery list purely as incentive to run old content? If people aren't allowed to lot on them then they won't help you, it will be completely barren like westwind before they added it to roulette. Stop being so selfish, we all have an equal chance to the item and no one is special.

I think I'm confused on the premise.

If a low level/ilevel person can use an item and it's an upgrade for them, they'll be able to need on it. Which takes priority over anyone else greeding it. The only time this may be an issue is if there's someone else in your party that also qualifies to 'need' it. And then they still have a good shot at it. They could also just ask the other person that could be capable of 'needing' it to greed on certain items like that.

Or are you asking for people running dungeons to pass on all drops so that the low person can get all of it? I don't get it.

When you're doing your relic and you're starting the HM primals, you're nearly at 10-15 min max from finishing it. Even if you get a primal weapon, it will become obsolete a couple of minutes later and remain unused in your inventory. So what's the problem exactly?

Poeple will greed on everything. End game is expensive and we all need money. I personnaly don't roll on anything when I do low level dungeons but hm primal and more? Yes unless someone else asked for it first.

http://forums.windowscentral.com/att...rt-popcorn.gif
Good stuff before work.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I'm sorry but I didn't realize that running the content failed to give me any rights to the loot. Maybe I just shouldn't run it at all. I'm sure that would help.

Seriously though you're just whining. If I run content then I will lot on the pieces that drop. They have uses outside of just new players and square has seen fit to encourage that time and time again. Don't come here setting "rules and expectations" for people that are yours and yours alone. My time is not free. A newbie is not entitled to the reward just because they are new. We all had to win the lots back in the day just the same way they do now. They can do the same. Also, they can go on classes where they have the option to NEED the loot thus limiting their competition in the first place.

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Why can't I hit the "Like" button more than once on this? Honestly couldn't make a better point than this!

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Originally Posted by Nymeia

And the moral of your responses are: Being helpful is a crime.

Should disband most communities in-game now. You heard it from the Forums!

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Let me spell it out for you: If you want people to do something, ask nicely. Like... "If the BLM staff drops, can I have it to gear my alt class?" The vast majority of people WILL pass if you ask like this. But people can't read minds and asking after it dropped might be too late.

Hostile & vitriolic attitudes, like your own, generally won't get much cooperation and, as you can see in this thread, aren't received well.

I find the community really nice and friendly in this game. I've almost never had a negative interaction with someone.

Of course, should have known that the OP's complaint would boil down to "Someone else won loot that I wanted."

Sorry, have to disagree. The community is great. Love the people I game with, they make things that much more fun. Sorry you're having a rough time.

Regarding loot though... Go with friends or use the party finder expressly to have one person roll on loot. Where's your FC? If you don't have friends... well, you may want to work on that. >.>; Complaining that randoms roll on loot makes no sense (as many others have mentioned.) If I go into a primal fight, the ONLY reason I'm there is to get a weapon for desynth or to use for another class I'm leveling. I'M leveling too... why am I suddenly denied the "right" to get something I need too? O.o That's not fair to me either. I'll roll greed in dungeons as well if I'm in a party with randoms. For a little while, I felt guilty rolling on stuff others could potentially need to upgrade their gear, but then it kept falling to the ground. >< Since I really need seals and stuff, I roll on everything now. I'm paying to play this game too, you know.

I must admit around the 8th time I rolled 90+ on a pony and still lost to the guy who spent the whole fight dead I do get a feeling of injustice and entitlement. But at least I have the self-awareness to not have a tantrum on the forums over it and making doomsday proclamations about the game (lol), and I am over it in 5 minutes and appreciate that everyone is equal in the eyes of RNGsus.

Even the greatest of communities do have their percentage of unsavory individuals, I can't deny that.

What the OP really got wrong was forgetting to include themselves in said percentage. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Nymeia

So basically it's my friend's fault for wanting to get her relic quest done during the quieter hours on my server, when there aren't enough people in her FC and Linkshells to help? She asked, a couple of us did. Still always one greedy ass every time.

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The game has loot rules already set in place....you cannot force random people in pugs or DF to follow rules you made up.

Creating a premade like people previously suggested can help fix your issue or asking the people when you load in if "insertfriendsweaponhere" drops can they have it.

Otherwise, everyone has just as much right to lot on things as the in game loot rules allow them to, whether it be they are able to Need or only Greed.

I usually always pass dungeon drops from everything pre 50 (unless all the people are 50 already anyway), but you cannot expect this from everyone, because they are there, in the dungeon or fight doing their job so honestly they can roll if they want to without feeling guilty or ashamed because if the game allows them to then its totally fair and equal treatment to all participating. So no, they are not stealing, they are not greedy, they are participating and playing the game how the game allows.

The whole game is RNG (group composition, what drops, who rolls highest, who makes use of the Need button and who decides to pass or only Greed). You need to go into each dungeon or fight assuming that you are not going to get special treatment and that you may have competition for things you want, never go in expecting others to pass everything to someone because they are "new" or need it for an upgrade. You'll spare yourself a lot of unneeded anger.

If the primal weapon upgrade was so important you could help your friend farm it for awhile, you'd probably get one for them after a few runs, unless RNG is not blessing you, then you could think of an alternative solution to get them a weapon. An inexpensive purchase off the MB for example, you can buy an i70 weapon (same ilvl as Garuda weapon) for not too steep a price on most servers I believe.

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Originally Posted by Nymeia

So basically it's my friend's fault for wanting to get her relic quest done during the quieter hours on my server, when there aren't enough people in her FC and Linkshells to help? She asked, a couple of us did. Still always one greedy ass every time.

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Sure as hell isn't anyone else's fault.

I think this a great community. Far better than any I have ever played with. I have had some great acts of kindness bestowed upon me. I have also seen some poor behavior as well. I CHOOSE to look for the good in people and focus on and remember that. I live a happy life. I think if we would all do the most basic things it would be better for all of us. Communicate and be polite to each other. Tell people what you need, say please and thank you don't get EMO if they say no. Own who you are, if you have a steep learning curve to challenging content, try to overgear yourself, watch some content beforehand and let people know, request advice/help. If someone asks for advice/help be kind and don't go all EMO if you wipe because they made a mistake, understand they feel bad...help them. Just be good decent human beings, it's a better way to live, the reward for this CHOICE is a happy fulfilling life.

I understand taking candy away from a baby but thats not the case here. The old, getting tired very quickly " You took stuff I wanted and you took my low level stuff" Story is out of hand now. Look, a Need roll is a Need roll. If you want Tank drops run as a Tank. True example: I've wanted the Tank armor from CT since the first time I saw it. I've never gotten it, every Tank item level 110-130, final coil wearing tank rolls need on this armor. I have to live with this because I suck at Tanking. So no Armor for me,but no crying. "Learn to live with not getting every drop ,everytime, its part of the game".

There is a loot system in place. If all can lot they can lot and should.. If someone wants like lets say the whm body from a particular run and asks for it I will pass on it if I dont need it for sure. I am a crafter and I need lots of crafting supplies, you think people are going to pass on something they can sell? I need over a million Grand company seals to complete my Lucis for my crafts. You can blame SE for this really for making Grand company seals so important or really blame Gil buyers. SE keeps making up this non-tradable currency to stop gill sellers instead of allowing everything to be bought with gill like it should be. . I used to pass on most armor from a dungeon. Again if someone really needs it and asks I will pass.

I don't think I realized how generally great this community is until I resubbed WoW for a month. While I played it for nearly a decade, I think I was pretty jaded to how ruthless and mean the general community was. I felt like it was a rarity in wow to find a group that didn't troll with parsers, kicks or abusive comments in the random lfr. In just the basic dungeons in warcraft, every group I got was dead silent. No one even said hello. They just steamrolled content in heirloom gear taking the fastest path to just get through it. Any interactions between were an unnecessary distraction and heaven forbid you're the person who either makes a mistake or has the lowest dps. Let's not even bring up the abomination that is the trade chat of that game.

Here, people in the duty finder will often greed stuff for various reasons but that is the same in any mmo. While this game gets it's share of jerks as any large scale mmo is likely to attract, a good portion of the community here tries to be considerate to their fellow gamers. The community in this game is actually kind of creepily nice. More often than not, I've seen people take time to explain fights to newcomers as well as take on additional pulls so a newbie can get more exp. Little acts of kindness like seem small but have a big impact on our community as a whole.

I do have to say being so negative probably isn't helping you or your friend's case. There's been many things I've had to run multiple times for the items I wanted. There are many things I don't have because others have won the roll. And that's ok. I'm not the only person playing and I'll get it eventually. Don't give up, stay positive and it will happen for you.

Unless your friend is a DPS shouldnt you be able to control some gear drops by going the same role as them if it is for the class they are using?

I have no problem with the loot system. I played DCUO when everyone could need on a piece of dps gear. THAT was crazy. So I'm happy with the loot system. It works well.

About the community. I've only had to deal with trolls in-game on a limited basis. With that said, most forums I frequent do state that his community is one of the worst out there. I really began to question why after seeing it so much and came to a few conclusions:

1) The community has been in the spotlight for a VERY long time.

Not just the FF MMO community, but the community in general. People commonly associate ARR players with the player on a forum who trashes SE to no end because of say Lightning Returns or Kingdom Hearts. Even though they are entirely different games altogether, we as a community will still feel the effects of those players. I'm not saying the player base is a bunch of angels, but there is bound to be guilt by association.

2) The cash shop debates.

It was just ridiculous. Did people have a right to fear for "pay to win"? Sure. Did people have a right to "like farm" about it? No. I don't know about you guys and gals, but I seen some forumers who were ESPLICITLY making threads for getting the community worked up. They created thread after thread after thread about it, and where are they now? Did they quit? Well if they quit, was it out of protest or humiliation? The cash shop obviously isn't pay to win. There's a reason the topic died down. It's a shame those same posters can't come out and say, "Ya I'm still playing and feel kind of silly now". I'm not saying no one stated a legitimate and well thought out thread of concern, but those threads were overshadowed by the attention seekers for sure and the effects have resonated. Just a monkey on our back as of now.

3) The lack of a moderator presence in the official forums.

Most successful forums (or forums I believe to be successful and rather drama free) are the ones that have very obvious and direct moderator intervention. They place warnings in topics for all to see. Sometimes they just delete a post entirely and replace it with "Post has been removed by moderator for violation/flaming/off topic" or will have an actual warning sign with a comment and warning from a moderator. It's not that the moderators in those forums make themselves a part of conversations, but they don't ghost erase posts without any sign of intervention. I also see the moderators here just lock a thread instead of cleaning it up which isn't fair to those who were engaging in stimulating conversation.

4) People don't read that much in this forum.

You see it all the time. Someone will read a thread title, post what they believe to be relative to the title and not read the previous pages of the conversation to see if it's still relevant. I don't read every single post all the time either, but the skimming is just too much to stomach sometimes.

Anyway, I think those are some big reasons as to why people might think this community is so toxic from the outside in. Because when it comes down to it, I've experienced more trolling, baiting, flaming, bigotry, racism, etcetera in many MANY other games several times over.

I know these aren't necessarily the points you were making OP, just wanted to throw this out there.

As I see it, the attitudes of this game's community and most online communities are a reflection of the state of society in general, we do live in the age of online after all.

Blatant self-entitled dickery is quickly becoming the norm in modern society. While there are still good people out there who make the world a nicer place for others, I consistently see more acts of selfishness than kindness while going about my day.

Societies and communities are made up of people, us. When you hurt someone else in the community, you are hurting the community and inadvertantly are hurting yourself since you too are a part of the community.
Strengthen and improve the community and everyone benefits, including yourself.

So please, let's all do our best to not be selfish jerks, online and in the real world.

I always click need, except in low level dungeons.

I learned the hard way that if you want an item in this game, you HAVE to go on a class that can Need on it. I got yelled at for much the same thing when I won the caster robe in CT on my black mage. I had wanted that robe for a long time, so I deliberately queued as a black mage (and not bard or scholar or war, my other main jobs), and when it finally dropped, I Needed on it. A guy who was tanking immediately started complaining that his black mage "could have used that."

Well, guess what, I could have been on my ilvl 110 WAR in Crystal Tower too, but I queued as a black mage precisely because I wanted the Crimson Robe. If he had really wanted the caster gear as much as I did, he too could have queued on black mage. He chose to queue on tank, either to shorten the wait or to also get a shot at tank gear. That was the opportunity cost he decided on, and I shouldn't be expected to pass on a piece of gear I've been after for over a year.

Don't hate the community for acting ultra insular. Duty finder breeds this community by removing any community building blocks and even making it hard to try and create a community.

Blame the game's ecosystem for catering to these players.

Everything SE does is counter community right down to the base game systems.

Catwho gets it.

You want gear, go on that job and need. The loot system encourages you to play the job your gearing, but still have the off chance to slowly get gear for other classes. You want to insta cue on tank but get dps gear? To bad. Go get on dps. You want tank gear, but don't want the responsibility and go on dps? To bad.

If you want gear then just PLAY the job you want gear for. This loot system rewards you on the job you olay. Stop QQ ing about not being able to greed everything your little heart desires. Straight up entittlement. You earn the right to need by playing the job.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I learned the hard way that if you want an item in this game, you HAVE to go on a class that can Need on it. I got yelled at for much the same thing when I won the caster robe in CT on my black mage. I had wanted that robe for a long time, so I deliberately queued as a black mage (and not bard or scholar or war, my other main jobs), and when it finally dropped, I Needed on it. A guy who was tanking immediately started complaining that his black mage "could have used that."

Well, guess what, I could have been on my ilvl 110 WAR in Crystal Tower too, but I queued as a black mage precisely because I wanted the Crimson Robe. If he had really wanted the caster gear as much as I did, he too could have queued on black mage. He chose to queue on tank, either to shorten the wait or to also get a shot at tank gear. That was the opportunity cost he decided on, and I shouldn't be expected to pass on a piece of gear I've been after for over a year.

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that guy sounds like a 12 year old brat.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Don't hate the community for acting ultra insular. Duty finder breeds this community by removing any community building blocks and even making it hard to try and create a community.

Blame the game's ecosystem for catering to these players.

Everything SE does is counter community right down to the base game systems.

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That's right, don't hate the players hate the game. Rubbish. People should be held accountable for their actions. Imo, this type of attitude is what contributes to the "me first generation" much more than anything SE could design.

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Originally Posted by Stihllodeing

That's right, don't hate the players hate the game. Rubbish. People should be held accountable for their actions. Imo, this type of attitude is what contributes to the "me first generation" much more than anything SE could design.

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Except by design they cannot be held accountable by their actions, even outing the offending player can be interpreted as a witch hunt and reported.

A few choice words..."Can I please have that Fran?" "Would you pass that for me Fran?" Ok, yours. Works everytime..

The rule of thumb is this for loot is this:
A. You run as the job that can need it
B.You can ask (nicely)the party in advance if they can pass it on to you; especially if there's another person on the same job as you.

There's been plenty of run where a person asked nicely to get X gear and we all passed since we either don't need it or already have it.

Lastly, I always roll greed just in case no else does. So frustrating when i roll pass and everyone passes on the loot. Such a waste

I would like to say my issues with the system and some of the players I met with it:

I'm not going to say the system is busted or whatever, but it really does suck when people press Need specifically for Glamour/BiS/Synthesize when there are other weaker party members on the team. I don't wanna hear the excuses, it's just how I see it and it sucks but that doesn't mean I don't aim on the glamour side myself OR it's a deliberate troll/dick move.

I had 2 times where I asked in the polite manner if I can have this gear(CT Tank gear for my Elezen because let's face it Lorica gear is HORRIFIC on females and Scylla Gloves for my Roe because my Evenstar gloves clash badly with it) and I don't even get an ANSWER FROM THE PERSON WHO ROLLS AND WINS IT! In CT, the other Tank didn't need the CT hatpiece, but he never said anything about wanting it either, he just rolled on it, laughed and left. And yesterday, the other mage(yes, I rolled as a BLM and mainly had a Mage party...) again said nothing and rolled on it even when the others said they'll pass. My main issue is INTENT and not voicing it.

I'll usually say dead out what I'm aiming for(either glamour purposes or gearing) if there is multiple classes as the one I'm at and I usually get a bit pissed when no one says "I need it too" and just rolls on it, it just makes me see them as slimy trolls.

Otherwise, I do try to be considerate to those who are weaker than me if I don't need and I won't raise a fuss if I play Monk and a Dragoon piece drops and vice versa for my other alts. And going back to the top, atleast be CONSIDERATE enough to state whether you need the pieces for BiS/Syn/Glamour, don't just take, you don't really look good doing so and continuously staying silent after the fact.

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

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Just because you "asked nicely" doesn't mean they have to automatically bend the knee to give you what you want.

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

...And going back to the top, atleast be CONSIDERATE enough to state whether you need the pieces for BiS/Syn/Glamour, don't just take, you don't really look good doing so and continuously staying silent after the fact...

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Why are you trying to shame people for rolling for gear they've legitimately earned? Sounds like you're just looking for an excuse to bully people into giving you what you want.

I disagree, I played FFXI for 7 years, Wow for 2 years, DnD for about 6 months and a few other for months at a time. FFXIV has the best community I've seen out of all others I've tried.

I'm not saying there isn't bad seeds but for the most part. I don't run into people while playing that are just jerks.

As for gear. Well my need for Points to convert to gil is just as valid as your need to equip a job..

Only one time I've ever been asked to pass and I did.

FFXIV has one of the best communities i've ever seen, only really rivaled by EQ1 and Champion's Online in my eyes. Though the former was much more party driven than MMOs of today, so you either had to be at least somewhat friendly or not get anything done, and the latter basically devolved to a social game of people playing with barbie dolls over time.
The thing is, high population games will also have a high population of jerks, and those jerks will cause other players to become jaded. Also, "community" is less based on the GAME and more on the SERVER.

I know people want to make this as the haves taking from the have nots. It isn't, it is about people feeling they are more entitled to something than someone else. Time is the ultimate resource, getting upset because someone won't give you something they spent their valuable time earning is a failing in your character not theirs. You can ASK for gear that you can't NEED but your claim or need to it is no important than anyone else's. The fact that you are here complaining about it says EVERYTHING we need to know about you not the rest of the community.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Don't hate the community for acting ultra insular. Duty finder breeds this community by removing any community building blocks and even making it hard to try and create a community.

Blame the game's ecosystem for catering to these players.

Everything SE does is counter community right down to the base game systems.

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What I dont get is people blame duty finder for everything.. Duty finder does not make someone: a you fill in the blank. You have to be a blank to begin with.
I think people think they are anonymous in DF so they can act like a blank.. You can look everyone up on load stone and still report them for acting like a blank. I mean I use Duty finder all the time and I dont go off acting like a jerk just because I am Duty finder.
I think the real problem is lack of GM support in this game and how hard it is to report someone.

It's a shame we can't give OP a gold medal for being so selfless and righteous for the sake of the new players.

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Originally Posted by SynMaris

Just because you "asked nicely" doesn't mean they have to automatically bend the knee to give you what you want.

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Originally Posted by Kasenai

Why are you trying to shame people for rolling for gear they've legitimately earned? Sounds like you're just looking for an excuse to bully people into giving you what you want.

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Hurray, exactly the people I was talking about...

I'm not asking whether I deserve or want anything or doing any of that nonsense you are assuming. Simply saying you need it too is more than enough, randomly acting like you need to say nothing and act as if you deserve it is exactly what you are saying I'm doing. Freaking hypocrites.