Raid runs and gear drops

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Originally Posted by Keftenk

By the way Rogue, don't you think you should probably kill Batraal first before you think you can do this...



A lot more to consider in a speed-run opposed to a normal run.

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Too funny.

i never said anything about a normal run,

my issue was with the requirements for a speed run and the resulting gear drops

keftenk has been riding me and getting off the issue since he started, guess he just likes arguing on forums.

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Originally Posted by Rogue

i never said anything about a normal run,

my issue was with the requirements for a speed run and the resulting gear drops

keftenk has been riding me and getting off the issue since he started, guess he just likes arguing on forums.

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I don't think you're getting it though, actually it's clear you're not getting it.
There is NO requirement for a speed run other then to complete it with 35-minutes or more left on the clock.

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Originally Posted by Rogue

i never said anything about a normal run,

my issue was with the requirements for a speed run and the resulting gear drops

keftenk has been riding me and getting off the issue since he started, guess he just likes arguing on forums.

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one of the main requirements is knowing how to kill Batraal , and doing so fast.

ok wutever i think weve been through this lol

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Originally Posted by Rogue

ok wutever i think weve been through this lol

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You're just assuming you need Archers or Mages, because it's the easiest build to go. /facepalm
Delsus is right, you're incredibly close minded.

yeh i know lol

ignorance is bliss. now lets go in the way back machine and complain why my dragoon cant get a invite to a divine might pt. i mean come on se, drgs need a bushinomimi or suppanomimi too.

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Originally Posted by desslok

ignorance is bliss. now lets go in the way back machine and complain why my dragoon cant get a invite to a divine might pt. i mean come on se, drgs need a bushinomimi or suppanomimi too.

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My dragoon did about 4 years ago before it was 75, it was my only job leveled at that time, so much fun.

Heaven forbid a casual cant get every item in the game..

2 items out of how many hundreds of items?

Leave it as is SE.

Mog

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Heaven forbid a casual cant get every item in the game..

2 items out of how many hundreds of items?

Leave it as is SE.

Mog

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Reasoning and Logic {Found it!}

I somewhat agree with the OP. Although, I have beat the dungeon with an unconventional party. However, I do think its stupid that the dungeon is catering to a certain amount of elitism from some of the posts I have read here. I think what the OP really wants is challenge, but on equal footing. It really pissed me off how endgame in FFXI started going 1 tank and 17 BLMs there for a while. And this is the same kind of shit. Its not that it cant be done without 7 archers or mages, its that the playerbase will start to move towards this style of setup. This to me shows either a lack of class ballance, a poor dungeon design, or both. The sad part is instead of addressing any of these issues, Im sure SE will just come out with a dungeon that is the same type of speedrun set up, but make it where its 10x easier to run it with all 7 melee and 1 healer. And then I will laugh at how the argument will immediately restart but with reversed roles.

@ Keftenk and those like him: Chill the F out guys. Step back from the conversation and re-read all your elitest jerk comments. I mean seriously re-examine your stance on this issue. I realize you want a challenge, and I dont blame you, so do I. But you are all saying everything short of "GTFO Noob" or "Learn to play". Your basicaly telling the guy that he has no right to succede, and honestly I think its very easy for us to say that now when we have beaten it and have gear.

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Originally Posted by Amsai

Its not that it cant be done without 7 archers or mages, its that the playerbase will start to move towards this style of setup.

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/moarchars

I often wonder how the job system is going to work when in the face of occurrences such as these. Why would anyone play a WHM or BLM or PLD or any job if people can just group as a class that can do ALL of these things? People are gonna play how they want to play.

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Originally Posted by Amsai

I somewhat agree with the OP. Although, I have beat the dungeon with an unconventional party. However, I do think its stupid that the dungeon is catering to a certain amount of elitism from some of the posts I have read here. I think what the OP really wants is challenge, but on equal footing. It really pissed me off how endgame in FFXI started going 1 tank and 17 BLMs there for a while. And this is the same kind of shit. Its not that it cant be done without 7 archers or mages, its that the playerbase will start to move towards this style of setup. This to me shows either a lack of class ballance, a poor dungeon design, or both. The sad part is instead of addressing any of these issues, Im sure SE will just come out with a dungeon that is the same type of speedrun set up, but make it where its 10x easier to run it with all 7 melee and 1 healer. And then I will laugh at how the argument will immediately restart but with reversed roles.

@ Keftenk and those like him: Chill the F out guys. Step back from the conversation and re-read all your elitest jerk comments. I mean seriously re-examine your stance on this issue. I realize you want a challenge, and I dont blame you, so do I. But you are all saying everything short of "GTFO Noob" or "Learn to play". Your basicaly telling the guy that he has no right to succede, and honestly I think its very easy for us to say that now when we have beaten it and have gear.

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What we are saying is that the op thinks arc tank and mage runs are the only way to do a speed run because they are out of aoe range because he doesn't know the basic mechanics of the game and has been refusing to comment when we mention it, and that is hardly elietest also he seems to have never done a melee run, and and says it doesn't work.

Then calling me out for being r48 which is the most elietest thing to say.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

What we are saying is that the op thinks arc tank and mage runs are the only way to do a speed run because they are out of aoe range because he doesn't know the basic mechanics of the game and has been refusing to comment when we mention it, and that is hardly elietest also he seems to have never done a melee run, and and says it doesn't work.

Then calling me out for being r48 which is the most elietest thing to say.

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I had a post to his reply too, but basically you hit it on the nail.
We even offered the guy advice. Elitest jerks, LOL...ok then, Mog, let us form a EJ of XIV!!!1!!

FFXIV doesn't need an EJ,

FFXIV (forums) needs some common sense.

I am just here to make sure people that don't read or research are well aware of how stupid they sound.

EG:
Lets bash game systems before they are implemented!

Lets complain about not being able to get 2 (YES 2) items in the game because SE doesn't cater to casuals!

Lets get on the "This game will die if" bandwagon!


Dear lord people, think before you post....

It was a joke :(

I agree it's stupid. The time limit itself is a dumb mechanic. As well as the fact it has a minimum number of players to enter. Bad mechanics. If I want to zone in solo and get killed then so be it, I don't need artificial barriers stopping me from doing what "I'm not supposed to".

I'm amazed people even laud the dungeon. It's basically a loot pinata, you run in, run past all the mobs, kill an ogre, run past all the mobs and kill a demon. THRILLING content. Once again fans of final fantasy rather than looking for a good product take a load on the chin and then ask for me.

This discussion is pointless as Yoshida and Matsui have acknowledged class balance is and will keep being crap, until they roll out the relevant battle algorithm updates. Never forget that we have been playing a game that sits between alpha and beta.

Also, don't ever bother to argue with the kind of people who think they are better than you because they can sink most of their time into a MMO. Getting your point through would trigger a major reevaluation of their whole existence and the human mind has astounding defenses against that.

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Originally Posted by Amsai

The sad part is instead of addressing any of these issues, Im sure SE will just come out with a dungeon that is the same type of speedrun set up, but make it where its 10x easier to run it with all 7 melee and 1 healer. And then I will laugh at how the argument will immediately restart but with reversed roles.

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I just had the most disturbing vision. Somehwere in the near future, as the number of people rises and new raids have been added, there is a Seeker of group. Finally he got invited to a rank 45 raid, and tactics are explained. "Ok, on first part of the dungeon you'll go as LNC, second part as THM, third part as MRD... What do you mean you have only LNC, MRD, GLA and CON leveled to 50?! That's not enough, a pro player woud have all disciplies of war and magic leveled to max. Get lost nab!".

You know, when I started this game I loved the idea of having 1 character being anything I want it to be, but I'm starting to hope that they'll put some limits on multiclassing (like you can't change jobs in a dungeon). I think it's time I'll go and start to read on the job changes...

It's stupid that some classes weapons are only obtainable via speed run. I would've thought multi-class gear (DoW, DoM) would have been rewards for speed run. But I agree that acquiring these FREE R50 gear should be hard.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Heaven forbid a casual cant get every item in the game..

2 items out of how many hundreds of items?

Leave it as is SE.

Mog

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Please don't mistaken casual player with bad player.

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Originally Posted by Haji

I just had the most disturbing vision. Somehwere in the near future, as the number of people rises and new raids have been added, there is a Seeker of group. Finally he got invited to a rank 45 raid, and tactics are explained. "Ok, on first part of the dungeon you'll go as LNC, second part as THM, third part as MRD... What do you mean you have only LNC, MRD, GLA and CON leveled to 50?! That's not enough, a pro player woud have all disciplies of war and magic leveled to max. Get lost nab!".

You know, when I started this game I loved the idea of having 1 character being anything I want it to be, but I'm starting to hope that they'll put some limits on multiclassing (like you can't change jobs in a dungeon). I think it's time I'll go and start to read on the job changes...

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Agree.

There is a big difference between Playing Hard and Working Hard.

I am great at both Playing Hard and Working Hard, but I charge for the later.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Agree.

There is a big difference between Playing Hard and Working Hard.

I am great at both Playing Hard and Working Hard, but I charge for the later.

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Keep in mind tho, it tends to be the playerbase rather then the dev team that forces such gameplay~

While true, it's up to dev to minimise those things, assuming they want to (it depends on their target audiance). Right now it's probably not that bad, but if the situation escalates (like the example with gladiator that was mentioned earlier) then the dev team will have to decide which way they want to jump. After all, they advertised FFXIV (back in the days, not sure if this is still actual) as casual-friendly, but having 5+ jobs at 30+ levels just to fill one role is not casual friendly (I think).

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Keep in mind tho, it tends to be the playerbase rather then the dev team that forces such gameplay~

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Aye. Taking the path of least resistance is human nature, still once they start charging the dev team should be able to anticipate and quickly fix those kind of situations.

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Originally Posted by Rogue

Dear SE

I have a gripe about the way we are supposed to get some of the drops from the R45+ dungeon (dzemadfsbnfsl darkhold)

apparently you can only get some items by doing a "speed run" and having 35+ minuted left on the clock at completion, for example i am a Glad main and i want the falchion sword

the thing is i only do runs in my LS and in the interest of being fair we never have a party setup that can accomplish this.. IE tank, archers and mages

i can appreciate some poeple dont want it to be too easy.. like me- but at the same time lets not try to shun certain people

if im honest the raids have put a strain on the LS because we want to succeed but we want all our members to experience the raid even if they arent an archer or mage.

and whats more some of our guys are new R50's and dont have all their sub abilities, it is especially critical the tank is an experienced player and i have noticed some of our new glads have been put the way side which is also dissheartening for them, and its not like anybody wants a second glad just to DD...

to sum up, i can appreciate people want a challenge but lets try to make things as fun as possible for as many people as possible, maybe it SHOULD be easy for experienced players with all their sub abilities and still be a challenge for inexperienced players

there could be a difficulty setting where if you beat it on full difficulty you can at least get bragging rights but everyone will atleast be able to complete and get the gear..

im sure you understand

thanks

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I have started a topic identicle to this here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...002#post303002

So those of you bashing Rogue saying its simply not true, pony up some proof of what you say in the form of a video. Because so far, the only successful runs I have found on youtube include the setup mentioned above. Why SE chose to make a dungeon this way is beyond me, but creating something for high level players that requires you to impliment virtually zero tactics or means of customizing your own runs along with no effort required to actually FIGHT your way to the bosses within the time limit is a total joke.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Aye. Taking the path of least resistance is human nature, still once they start charging the dev team should be able to anticipate and quickly fix those kind of situations.

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While I totally agree that it is the players doing it this way because it is easiest, it is the devs responability to playtest this thing before releasing it to ensure each party setup has an EQUAL opportunity defeating the darkhold within the time limit.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Please don't mistaken casual player with bad player.

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None of us are asking SE to make it easier. We are only asking that they optimize the runs for all classes and not the same 4 that seem to be running it over and over again successfully. If you have to have 3 or more jobs leveled to 50 just to be considered as a canidate to go on the run, then I would say they did the play testing for this very poorly. And until someone like you can provide me with proof that a party runs this successfully all the time without the 1 tank, archer, mage setup, I will continue to belive your an elitist thats full of crap.

During all the patches before 1.18. People complain that there is no challenge content and no end-game content. No goal to achievement by ranking up. There were also many thread saying that NM need no strategy and any noob can finish it.

Now they offer something little challenge and people says that it is too hard for new players... <_>


well, if he is new player, then he shouldn't suppose to be able to win against currently hardest content to begin with. What about more practice or rank up sub-classes? Rank up sub-classes could be addition to the lack of current goal too. it is nice to see something like "This dungeon require this skill, so I should rank up this class to get the requirement skill and then get into the challenge again" instead of "This dungeon require nothing, let beat it in one go and back to play another game"

Alise: this is not about whether or not the dungeon is difficult or not, but whether the classes are balanced or not. Some people feel (I can't really comment, as I did not do the raid) that only certain setups work, making some (most actually) combat classes irrelevant.

Also I strongly disagree that forcing players to level (to quite high level actually) subclasses to obtain a couple of skills is good think. It does not make game harder after all; just more tedious.

With any luck the new job system will adress some of those problems.

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Originally Posted by Haji

Alise: this is not about whether or not the dungeon is difficult or not, but whether the classes are balanced or not. Some people feel (I can't really comment, as I did not do the raid) that only certain setups work, making some (most actually) combat classes irrelevant.

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It's more of a community issue, but I'm with the OP a bit since this "ARC only" mindset on my server pisses me off to no end.

I'd kill for a server transfer option at this point.

That's where they failed horribly with the armory system. They like to pretend leveling another job is optional to make yourself stronger, well in a sense I guess you could say that, but in reality its 100% required. Good luck soloing to 50 on a glad with no support spells.

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Originally Posted by Fayette

Goes back to the days of FFXI player elitism where if you didn't have a particular main and/or subjob you weren't invited to parties or story missions. People either picked the wrong job or were new to game and didn't have all the proper (according to players only) subjobs leveled yet.

Players in FFXI boxed the job/subjob up too much into "this is your only role and you can't play it any other way (*coughRDMcough*)

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I totally agree with this statement and also worried about the future of XIV because of its truthful basis.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

It's more of a community issue, but I'm with the OP a bit since this "ARC only" mindset on my server pisses me off to no end.

I'd kill for a server transfer option at this point.

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I don't think it's just your server. It's the playerbase as a whole. Unfortunately I'm beginning to see the attitude infiltrate the linkshell I'm in as well. XIV's slowly turning into another job pardon the pun. I'm hoping to find some more open minded individuals that like experimentation and aren't afraid to fail. Especially if I'm able to repair all their gear anyways.

Unfortunately, elitists in the Square series of MMOs aren't actually elitists. On the contrary, they actually are the ones who are able to .dat mine, circumvent intended mechanics, and procure easy mode from an otherwise interesting play experience. Raptor burn parties, ARC/MAGE burns, and mindless grinding seem to be the signs of most of the elitists that I've personally come in contact with. I never took that word to mean that though. I always figured it was a person who held a higher set of standards not necessarily efficiency over difficulty. In my opinion, completing runs outside of the standard method would be more "elite" than "everyone must do this like everyone else" but that's just not the case in XI or, so it seems, XIV.

No matter what they do with the classes/jobs, there will always be a favored set up that is perceived as being the most ifficient. This happens in all games. The problem is more with the people playing IMO. EVERY ONE wants the class they are playing to be the best.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

I have started a topic identicle to this here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...002#post303002

So those of you bashing Rogue saying its simply not true, pony up some proof of what you say in the form of a video. Because so far, the only successful runs I have found on youtube include the setup mentioned above. Why SE chose to make a dungeon this way is beyond me, but creating something for high level players that requires you to impliment virtually zero tactics or means of customizing your own runs along with no effort required to actually FIGHT your way to the bosses within the time limit is a total joke.

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You're kidding right?

Are you so narrow minded to think that no one can beat the speed run with a melee in the setup? Unfortunately I can't provide a video, but not only has my linkshell beat the speed run with a couple of melee in a single run, we've even beaten the speed run with 6 (7+mule, the seventh dc'd at the Batraal cs; technically was a 7man kill all the way up to Batraal).

As for your comment about the instance requiring you to implement virtually zero tactics; forcefully running through 20 mobs to sit at a circle to depop them is a tactic. Choosing to kill them one by one is a tactic, choosing to aoe them all at once is a tactic. I just provided you with three separate tactics, guess what, there are more, what the hell are you even talking about?

Actually, don't answer that, I've noticed you clearly have no idea what you're even talking about. You haven't even beat Batraal yourself. It's called a speed run kill for a reason, it requires SPEED (which incidentally calls for a lot more things then just running through mobs). Even in SE's video of Darkhold, they employ a tactic which they just run to the circle to depop mobs (it doesn't actually show them depopping the mobs, but they aren't fighting the mobs--instead, running to the circle and ignoring the mobs which are attacking them).

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Originally Posted by Haji

Alise: this is not about whether or not the dungeon is difficult or not, but whether the classes are balanced or not. Some people feel (I can't really comment, as I did not do the raid) that only certain setups work, making some (most actually) combat classes irrelevant.

Also I strongly disagree that forcing players to level (to quite high level actually) subclasses to obtain a couple of skills is good think. It does not make game harder after all; just more tedious.

With any luck the new job system will adress some of those problems.

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The people complaining are just blinded by their own ignorance. They assume one way is the only way, so they start raging when that "one way" doesn't include any of the jobs they've leveled. They don't even have the mind set or decency to even think that you can do it any other way. Multishot sure is far from fair, it's incredibly over-powered. However because multishot is overpowered doesn't make it a must-have.

Victimize II is pretty strong now as well, you can see numbers as high as 600 on not only Batraal but Ogre as well. Chaos Thrust is XIV's execute button (just not spammable w), I wonder why people don't even think about how strong some of these abilities really are. Oh, that's right, because they don't even try......

There really isn't even an issue of having sub-class abilities and traits. Granted some of them are really nice to have, but a lot of them are within the first 20 levels of a job which takes 1-2 hours to achieve these days. If someone is raging about not able to have Punishing Barbs or Leg Sweep, then that person is probably trolling.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

I don't think it's just your server. It's the playerbase as a whole. Unfortunately I'm beginning to see the attitude infiltrate the linkshell I'm in as well. XIV's slowly turning into another job pardon the pun. I'm hoping to find some more open minded individuals that like experimentation and aren't afraid to fail. Especially if I'm able to repair all their gear anyways.

Unfortunately, elitists in the Square series of MMOs aren't actually elitists. On the contrary, they actually are the ones who are able to .dat mine, circumvent intended mechanics, and procure easy mode from an otherwise interesting play experience. Raptor burn parties, ARC/MAGE burns, and mindless grinding seem to be the signs of most of the elitists that I've personally come in contact with. I never took that word to mean that though. I always figured it was a person who held a higher set of standards not necessarily efficiency over difficulty. In my opinion, completing runs outside of the standard method would be more "elite" than "everyone must do this like everyone else" but that's just not the case in XI or, so it seems, XIV.

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Small plug here, but check out Onslaught. We're all about being laid back and chill, playing the game the way we want to. :)

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Originally Posted by Keftenk

You're kidding right?

Are you so narrow minded to think that no one can beat the speed run with a melee in the setup? Unfortunately I can't provide a video, but not only has my linkshell beat the speed run with a couple of melee in a single run, we've even beaten the speed run with 6 (7+mule, the seventh dc'd at the Batraal cs; technically was a 7man kill all the way up to Batraal).

As for your comment about the instance requiring you to implement virtually zero tactics; forcefully running through 20 mobs to sit at a circle to depop them is a tactic. Choosing to kill them one by one is a tactic, choosing to aoe them all at once is a tactic. I just provided you with three separate tactics, guess what, there are more, what the hell are you even talking about?

Actually, don't answer that, I've noticed you clearly have no idea what you're even talking about. You haven't even beat Batraal yourself. It's called a speed run kill for a reason, it requires SPEED (which incidentally calls for a lot more things then just running through mobs). Even in SE's video of Darkhold, they employ a tactic which they just run to the circle to depop mobs (it doesn't actually show them depopping the mobs, but they aren't fighting the mobs--instead, running to the circle and ignoring the mobs which are attacking them).



The people complaining are just blinded by their own ignorance. They assume one way is the only way, so they start raging when that "one way" doesn't include any of the jobs they've leveled. They don't even have the mind set or decency to even think that you can do it any other way. Multishot sure is far from fair, it's incredibly over-powered. However because multishot is overpowered doesn't make it a must-have.

Victimize II is pretty strong now as well, you can see numbers as high as 600 on not only Batraal but Ogre as well. Chaos Thrust is XIV's execute button (just not spammable w), I wonder why people don't even think about how strong some of these abilities really are. Oh, that's right, because they don't even try......

There really isn't even an issue of having sub-class abilities and traits. Granted some of them are really nice to have, but a lot of them are within the first 20 levels of a job which takes 1-2 hours to achieve these days. If someone is raging about not able to have Punishing Barbs or Leg Sweep, then that person is probably trolling.

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SOOOOO what your saying is, there is a way to clear the whole dungeon while also killing all the mobs between bosses? Because if not, then killing the mobs isn't a VIABLE tactic. A narrow minded person would not have tried these runs with multiple party setups before posting a request for information. You on the other hand clearly seem to fit that bill.
And my post was actually about requesting helpful ideas that detail how to beat it without the arc, mage setup, not having some giant douchebag get on and state that there ls is the bomb for beating it 6 different ways and that I suck ass and don't know what I am talking about because I havent beaten the last boss yet. You are the textbook definition of a tool my friend. Your contribution to the community here is astounding.