Should Cleric Stance be disabled during Dungeons and Raids?

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

Why should Healers have to DPS? Don't bring up a guide on why or someone else's post. Answer me with your own words folks.

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Long story short: They don't. For the most part, healers DPS to make things "faster". When I'm learning a fight, I generally start seeing holes where I can pop into cleric stance and drop a Aero/Aero II, pop back and wait (T10 Electrofield). Likewise, Tanks don't have to help healers mitigate and DPS don't have to use their cooldowns to help mitigate damage.

Here's a short story: There's a mechanic in T13 where the boss does a near one shot move to a tank (unmitigated). In order to keep the tank alive, it's highly suggested for an Adlo/Stoneskin to be up on the tank before the attack hits. What if the tank doesn't get an Adlo or Stoneskin? He could, instead of generating more threat, attempt to Stoneskin himself in order to make up for his healer's mistakes. If he didn't get the stoneskin off on himself, he would likely have died.

Apocathasis, Eye for an Eye, Virus, Mantra, Second Wind, the list goes on. There's a plethora of different skills that and DPS/Tank class could use to help mitigate damage or heal themselves. It's all a big part of collaboration, and the reason of a party. One can (probably) clear stuff without the use of any of these skills, but it just makes it harder.

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

1. I don't know you and I didn't make any personal attack towards you or your play style. So please refrain from doing it to me. Thanks.

2. If you had read my post in it's entirety I was stating it from a 8 man raid perspective and not 4.

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If you look around the Parsers of the first World clears of SCoB, FCoB, Savages, etc, you'll see a trend: The healers DPS.

Why? Because when you are in progression you are under-geared. Healer DPS bridges up the DPS gap, just as Pentamelded Jewlery bridge the HP-requirements. DPS check's when the content is fresh where so tight that all 8 members used Poison Pots on the clock. I guarantee you a lot of this "World firsts" wouldn't have happened if the healers weren't DPSing.

Also, I find it funny that you say you are not making any attacks while at the same time assuming not meeting DPS checks means the DPS are bad. Your argument is no different than saying Healers that don't DPS are bad healers.

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

2. If you had read my post in it's entirety I was stating it from a 8 man raid perspective and not 4.

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4 man or 8 man.. it makes no difference unless we're talking about coil where healing actually becomes a challenge. When you have an 8 man group you also get twice the amount of heals and aoe healing counts for a lot more than it does in 4 man.

I'm sorry but it seems like you're just trying to make excuses to be lazy, if you want to sit around pressing 1 or 2 buttons the entire dungeon that's your own decision but in my opinion that makes you a bad healer. Any good healer with a little bit of gear can throw out 100-150+ dps and keep everybody topped off, it's not hard; it just takes practice.

Also, last time I checked both whm and sch have some very good dps skills, if you think SE intended for healers to sit there and spam cures then why would they give the dps abilities to healers in the first place? Why do you think cleric stance exists? To sit on your hotbar and never be used?

The idea to remove cleric stance is terrible and just an excuse to be lazy. Play your job to its full extent or don't play it at all in my opinion.

@Kyros

You're assuming I am calling all Healers bad, I did not. I also understand about World First and stuff like that, but each group has their own strategies that they worked out and created. Some Healers DPS, others don't. It's more or less about being comfortable enough with your play style/job to do this. I understand there "are" DPS checks in raids. When fresh new content comes out it's for people to get used to the mechanics and what else the game is throwing their way. By your logic you're saying that it's a mandatory requirement for progressions sake that Healers DPS. I say nay friend. If this was the case we would have Hybrid jobs, and the closest thing we have currently to hybrid are Cross Class Skills and Arcanist. Also it's another reason why we have Tome Gear. Tome gear is the bridge, not Healers. Tome gear usually bridges the gap between yourself the the requirements for Coil. Just like it was mandatory for people to go into first Coil back when i70 cap was around with either full Darklight Gear/Crafted & Melded Gear or Mythology.

OP, if you don't want to do damage then don't do it.

other healers want to do and many of them are happy to do so.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

True, but if we didn't have cleric stance it wouldn't be as expected of us to DPS because our performance wouldn't be as good. The reason I made this thread is because there are many instances where healers have a lot on there plate with the healing and it feels unfair to have to do the job of the other jobs. Why should healers dps if the dps don't heal, nor tank and the same applies to tanks they don't heal they just dps because its required to do their job.

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Ok as a blm i do some healing if it is needed. It is not all the time but sometimes the healers need some help because of different reasons. Over all tho my healing is not good on a blm nor should it be but it does help out at times.

I dont think they should take cleric stance away. If a healer can find the rime to do some dps then why stop them from doing it?

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

The idea to remove cleric stance is terrible and just an excuse to be lazy. Play your job to its full extent or don't play it at all in my opinion.

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This game isn't just made for Hardcore players dude. The way you're coming at this topic seems to be from a more hardcore stand point, which is fine. But there are casual players out there who play the game just for fun. Why should they be forced to live up to your expectations because you want them to?

I don't see a reason for Cleric Stance to be disabled while in a dungeon or raid. Nor do I think that a healer should feel coerced into using Cleric Stance, especially if they do not feel comfortable with being able to do a bit of DPS AND heal (which is their primary objective).

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

This game isn't just made for Hardcore players dude. The way you're coming at this topic seems to be from a more hardcore stand point, which is fine. But there are casual players out there who play the game just for fun. Why should they be forced to live up to your expectations because you want them to?

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Great part about Cleric Stance is that it can be toggled on/off. No one is forced to do anything.

If a healer isn't comfortable with DPSing during a dungeon, whatever that's fine.

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

This game isn't just made for Hardcore players dude. The way you're coming at this topic seems to be from a more hardcore stand point, which is fine. But there are casual players out there who play the game just for fun. Why should they be forced to live up to your expectations because you want them to?

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Nobody is forcing you to live up to others' expectations but I'm not going to sit there and pretend you're some great healer when you don't use half of your abilities because you find it less fun. I never give people shit in dungeons or raids, do what you want as far as I'm concerned, that's what I do. Just don't get upset when people say you're not playing your job effectively.

The reason people think healers that don't dps are bad is because they are wasting every bodies time, including their own, by refusing to play their job as intended. If it wasn't intended to be played that way, half your abilities wouldn't be for dps.

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

This game isn't just made for Hardcore players dude. The way you're coming at this topic seems to be from a more hardcore stand point, which is fine. But there are casual players out there who play the game just for fun. Why should they be forced to live up to your expectations because you want them to?

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Alternatively, why should more capable players be forced to play at a lower level? That question swings both ways. Leave it there. Let people play the way they want. If a team has a healer who doesn't DPS and the other team members want the healer to DPS then there is a mismatch. Find a new healer. There is literally no reason people can't play the way they want and with people who play in similar ways. Any argument that suggests people should force one group to play like another is too self entitled to be serious.

Mandatory for healers to DPS? In what dimension? I'll be damned if more than 10% of the healers I'm getting in DF ever DPS, and I've never seen anyone call them out on it.

And to be honest if I didn't DPS when I do any faceroll content on healer I'd probably fall asleep from bordeom.

This thread is just silly.

As others have stated, so too shall I; A healer doesn't have to dps, but we have dps skills so we might as well put them to use if we know how to.

Sometimes things happen, and stuff gets misclicked. Accidents can happen. Though generally once you get the hang of how you can dps, toggle off, heal, toggle on, dps, and so on and so forth you are fine.

It's not that the group I'm in "Needs the extra dps for dps check" that's not typically why I dps on my Whm. I dps because it's helping down the mobs that much faster, hence the less people are taking damage which also means I don't have to heal as much.

Another reason I dps is because straight healing is boring as hell. I dps to keep myself awake in dungeon and trials. Although it completely depends the party makeup, as well as how decently geared the tank(s) is/are. There have been many a instance run where I wanted to dps, but the tanks/melee were just taking too much damage too often so I pretty much had to heal to keep everyone from dying.

That's not to say there aren't healers out there that are just plain dumb. I've been in trials, CM and Praetorium numerous times where the other healer just kept Cleric Stance up the whole time, during the times when they were actually healing and everything. That's when I facepalm, because cleric stance is just so bad for that. That's just a matter of that healer being bad and probably not realizing that the only reason people aren't dying is because the other healer that is doing things correctly is the one saving everyone's behind while their piddly heals off only mediocre, barely useful assistance to the good healer. If you have 2 healers doing this dumb thing, then chances are there's gonna be a few people dying if not everyone, depending on what you are doing.

Healers can dps, and when done well, it is only a benefit to the entire party.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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Nobody said they had to, but each person pays monthly to play how they want to play. If you go into a Coil group and they go. "Are you comfortable with DPSing while Healing." versus oh I don't know, "You're gonna DPS and Heal." and not give them a say in the matter, then that's completely different. The topic itself is a gray area and a lot of opinions go this way and that way. Back when T6 first came out I was comfortable DPSing on my SCH until the first Blighted popped. But that being said, things usually get easier to the point of where it doesn't matter whether or not a Healer does DPS. Because Yoshi's overall goal is to have everyone enjoy the content as they see fit, which is why echo now exist.

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

Mandatory for healers to DPS? In what dimension? I'll be damned if more than 10% of the healers I'm getting in DF ever DPS, and I've never seen anyone call them out on it.

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This x10000. People don't care.
Maybe SE should disable Elitist Stance instead of CS.

I dont know why you would even do this. If I have time to DPS I do it. Ive never had anyone tell me it was required. I just did it where and when I could.

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

Nobody said they had to, but each person pays monthly to play how they want to play. If you go into a Coil group and they go. "Are you comfortable with DPSing while Healing." versus oh I don't know, "You're gonna DPS and Heal." and not give them a say in the matter, then that's completely different. The topic itself is a gray area and a lot of opinions go this way and that way. Back when T6 first came out I was comfortable DPSing on my SCH until the first Blighted popped. But that being said, things usually get easier to the point of where it doesn't matter whether or not a Healer does DPS. Because Yoshi's overall goal is to have everyone enjoy the content as they see fit, which is why echo now exist.

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Honestly though, it's not completely different. Some coil groups will want the healer to dps and some won't care, but for the ones that do why should they (7 other people) have to put up with a healer that doesn't dps when there are plenty that will? In the same respect, why should a healer that doesn't want to heal have to heal? It's simple, they don't, but they won't be welcome into the group that expects it.

Either way you slice it, it's simply a matter of opinion and majority rules. You can't get mad that a coil group won't invite you because you refuse to dps when the rest of the group wants a healer that can, why should they suffer for your sake? They made the group and as far as I'm concerned, if you want to set the rules you need to make your own. Making the group is what takes most of the time and if they want to set rules like that it's up to them.

To bring this thread back on topic, no, do not disable cleric stance in raids/dungeons. Let players play how they want. Nobody is forcing anyone to put cleric stance on if they don't want to, but at the same time don't impose on others by forcing them to play in a specific manner just because you don't like it. Leave cleric stance alone and applaud the healers who help DPS while keeping everyone alive.

Shut up Cerenth you haven't even cleared T11.


It's just like people expecting random buffs (Apocastatis, Mantra, Goad) in DF groups - it rarely happens but it's nice when it does. I expect a healer to heal (their role) and if they DPS by their own accord then that's more than welcome - it's just a waste to overheal or do nothing when you could be speeding up progress.

No one can force healers to dps, unless someone physically in the room taps your cleric stance hotkey every time you try to take it off. If you aren't comfortable with it in that fight, don't do it. You rolled in as a healer, and making pretty green numbers is your job, first and foremost.

Alternately, if your group is on the brink of pushing a phase or mechanic, or there is simply no healing or buffing to be done, parties can often be very grateful when you slip in some dps. Even if you do make a mistake resulting in someone's death (it happens, though incidents should be rare), just apologize, up your healing game, and try to do it better.

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Originally Posted by Melriss

Shut up Cerenth you haven't even cleared T11.

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How rude. This is why nobody says to start a character on Moogle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHpPKgi-niI

Ill just repeat the same thing I say whenever someone makes a topic about healers dpsing. Anyone who says healers shouldn't probably didn't pay attention to the conjurer quests.

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Originally Posted by odintius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHpPKgi-niI

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http://youtu.be/pNS62ZTpJi0

If I couldn't stance dance on SCH, I wouldnt SCH anymore as it would be foring as buck for me to stand around most of the time waiting for someone to take damage after hitting em with a crit adlo.

Also OP, I good PLD OT will be using stoneskin on the MT. As MNK I self heal too with second wind (hits for 1500, crits for 2200) and Bloodbath with Blood for blood, So there, a DPS healing, a tank covering stoneskin, also SMN can cover healers for rezzing. No excuses now to DPS ^_^

I play with an excellent healer who wants to DPS during dungeons, I think it would bum him out if he knew he couldn't dps. While it's not required, it does help break up a bit of the monotony of just healing and a well equipped healer can really make a difference.

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Originally Posted by Cerenth

http://youtu.be/pNS62ZTpJi0

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUT47Za7lPY

Dpsing healers is op and can lead to many great things hence why they had to take it out in PvP.
It can push for meeting strict dps checks during the early progression days, it can cause clear when all dps somehow die, it can help kill adds or do certain mechanics, it can make dungeon runs go 2x as fast. But the golden rule is
As long as no one dies you can do whatever.

I can only hope for most healers' sanity that they're doing some stuff in between heals, Cleric Stance or not, because there are a lot of places where there's not much to heal at all and using mana isn't a problem. As a Scholar Eos' manual Embrace can cover most heals perfectly fine especially in older stuff but even in current content.

Now if you aren't in Cleric Stance in moments where there's literally nothing to heal like Xande's Meteors, Cloud of Darkness's Qarn boxes (honestly most of the CT storyline fights if your tank isn't main tanking), or Odin's Shin Zantetsuken, generally stuff that needs to die fast and there's nothing doing any damage, it's just a big why.

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Originally Posted by Melriss

Shut up Cerenth you haven't even cleared T11.

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What did this even have to do with anything that he said? o.O

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

If I couldn't stance dance on SCH, I wouldnt SCH anymore as it would be foring as buck for me to stand around most of the time waiting for someone to take damage after hitting em with a crit adlo.

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So much this. Even in a bigger pull (especially if fairy buffs are up), crit adlo = CS, dot it up, Bane, then Lustrate while I swap back and resume healing. There's no reason whatsoever that a healer can't dps.

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Originally Posted by Roris

As a Scholar Eos' manual Embrace can cover most heals perfectly fine especially in older stuff but even in current content.

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Yep. If it weren't for CS, I mayaswell just put Eos on Sic, follow someone, and go afk.

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Originally Posted by Makuro

tbh I just wish cleric stance didn't have a cd.

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I'd rather have an ON only button and OFF only button. Or simply /ac "Cleric Stance" on/off. Would make things a lot simpler for me when it come to managing hotbar slots.

No, being able to dps as a healer makes the run go faster and helps the dps with dealing damage. The only negative points would be that some players would enforce healers to not only heal, but do dps aswell.

At the end if you as a healer have alot of mana and the group knows what it is doing, why not do some dps aswell?

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

Nobody said they had to, but each person pays monthly to play how they want to play. If you go into a Coil group and they go. "Are you comfortable with DPSing while Healing." versus oh I don't know, "You're gonna DPS and Heal." and not give them a say in the matter, then that's completely different. The topic itself is a gray area and a lot of opinions go this way and that way.

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Oftentimes, it's ok if the group themselves are ok with it. For example, the WHM in my raid group is not comfortable DPS-ing in most raids, and for my group, that's OK. If the group wants to push progression, and demands the best from each of their members, a healer who doesn't want to DPS can't just suddenly join and say "I don't want to DPS" when they are expected to - that's akin to not meeting a recruitment requirement. They are always free to start their own group however, where they get to set the rules (ie. I am a healer who doesn't DPS. Join my group and deal with it, or leave. Or something. IDK).

Ultimately it's a matter of choice, and more choices are often better than less.

Doing dungeons without CS would be awful, otherwise you're gonna be sitting around a ton, twiddling your fingers. Sure you can dps without it but the spells lack such punch without it. Even the game encourages you to dps as a healer.

See SE? You make people lazy. Please let 3.0 be the very last addition for new to MMO players or we'll have more of these requests.

This is a rediculous request I might add.

Cleric Stance + Presence of Mind + Holy Spam is so freaking gratifying. Like, it satisfies my visceral need as a healer to destroy mob group things to bits.

Don't you take this away from me. Don't. You. Dare.

Scholar was basically built as a healer/dps hybrid. People who complain about wasted mp forget that sch can restore massive mp using cleric stance + energy drain if they need it, not to mention, eos/selene takes care of a good amount of healing while a scholar can dps.

I'd still dps whether or not CS exists. Any damage is better than none and like what else are you going to do? It just will make our damage that much less and is a pointless change.

You want to have healers not dps during dungeons? Then make dungeon content actually require some non trivial amount of healing... Seriously nerfing our dps output isn't going to change anything.

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Originally Posted by Parodine

Cleric Stance + Presence of Mind + Holy Spam is so freaking gratifying. Like, it satisfies my visceral need as a healer to destroy mob group things to bits.

Don't you take this away from me. Don't. You. Dare.

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Healer = "someone who purports to aid recovery from ill health"
Destroy = "put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it."

Those two concepts don't seem to align just right...

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

Healer = "someone who purports to aid recovery from ill health"
Destroy = "put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it."

Those two concepts don't seem to align just right...

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I meaaaaaan, technically doctors are healers of people who also destroy bacteria, viruses, etc. I am helping heal and protect my peeps by destroying things that would hurt them.

It's all about perspective! But mostly I just get bored standing around waiting to cast cure 1 over and over.
Think of Holy like my antibiotic and the mobs are my bacteria~