An Introduction to Dragonspeak

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Originally Posted by Thandronen

Someone had to write it... you do realize that every translation team was at worst given a script of what the story is supposed to convey right?! It didn't come out of thin air as much as you might like to believe it did.
I guarantee you that the majority of folks playing this game (or any other game for that matter) want the ORIGINAL story content, translated as concise as possible... not completely re-written to the point that it egregiously leaves out at least 3 major points that Midgardsormr expressly conveys in the Japanese (aka Parent version of the story) text.
If you recall, we were also provided with extremely vague hints about how to pop S Ranks hunts compared to the other language translations. The translator(s) need to simply do their job and nothing more here.

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They are doing their job, you just don't like what they do. You do realize Fernwhales doesn't act in a bubble, right? This was reviewed and approved. The Japanese version is not the golden source, it's more of a first draft, where they all share ideas and contribute. They didn't change the overall story.

Also, if you can't guess Fernwhales is a bit more than just a translator. It's called localization, not translation.

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Originally Posted by Thandronen

I (and many others I assure you) want as close to the exact translation that the original content writer intended as possible.

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I (and many others I assure you) prefer good writing even if it means straying from the source a little. Not everyone's a weeaboo who needs all stories to be presented in the same bland and boring manner.

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Originally Posted by Efrye

I (and many others I assure you) prefer good writing even if it means straying from the source a little. Not everyone's a weeaboo who needs all stories to be presented in the same bland and boring manner.

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Good writing does not drop info. Good writing gives all the information in a pleasing manner.

This:

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ほう、汝も「超える力」を持つか・・・。幻体ごときでは、敵わぬのも道理よ。
So you too possess the Echo. That is why the phantom form cannot win over you.
然らば、我と引き合わせたのも、ハイデリンの意志か。 問おう・・・汝は何故、ここへ参った？
In that case, it is Hydaelyn's will that we shall converse. Tell me, why are you here?

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dropped to this:

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By Her gifts has thou earned a moment's reprieve.
Speak, mortal, and I shall listen.

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is fine.

But, this:

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確かに、北天の星を燃やすは、我が一族の猛き咆哮。進軍を告げる、鬨の声だ。
This is true, the star in the northern skies burns with the valorous roar of my kin. This is the battlecry, calling to advance.
一族が向かうは、イシュガルド・・・。畏れを忘れ、罪を犯したヒトの棲処。
Their destination is Ishgard, home of the people who have forgotten fear and have sinned.
[PC looks agitated]
これは報復よ。イシュガルドの民は、己が罪から目を背けた。その罪こそが、尽きることない戦の火種。
This is retribution! The people of Ishgard are blind to their sins. Their sins demand battle without end.
そればかりか、あの者どもは今、再び罪を犯そうとしておる。故に、我が一族は咆哮をとどろかせたのであろう。
And yet more, they want to sin again. This is why my kin roars.

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turned into this:

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Guided by a star...? Heh heh heh.
My people have heard the song. Ishgard shall burn.
[PC looks agitated]
Sons must answer for their fathers' misdeeds.
We do not forget. We do not forgive.

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Just to include several pop culture references is not. The fact that the Ishigardians are preparing to "Sin again" being the reason for the new surge is an important point. The current translation makes it seem that the Dragons are just being vindictive.

I could go through it all and point out other parts where important bits of info and full sentences were misconstrued or left out, but I would rather not.

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Originally Posted by Efrye

I (and many others I assure you) prefer good writing even if it means straying from the source a little. Not everyone's a weeaboo who needs all stories to be presented in the same bland and boring manner.

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What the hell does wanting a better translation have to do with being a weeaboo?

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

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Actually

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In that case, it is Hydaelyn's will that we shall converse. Tell me, why are you here?

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to

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Speak, mortal, and I shall listen.

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omits the idea that Hydaelyn has some vested interest in having the player meet Midgardsommr and, while you may think this irrelevant, it does raise questions as to the purpose of this.

Maybe I just like wordy exposition, but it seems that the translator has an idea of how he wants the dragons to sound and is going to run with it regardless of whether pertinant information is lost in the process which I find rather arrogant.

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Originally Posted by Miitan

omits the idea that Hydaelyn has some vested interest in having the player meet Midgardsommr and, while you may think this irrelevant, it does raise questions as to the purpose of this.

Maybe I just like wordy exposition, but it seems that the translator has an idea of how he wants the dragons to sound and is going to run with it regardless of whether pertinant information is lost in the process which I find rather arrogant.

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Well I got that off the "By Her Gifts" part of the line before, but I guess that adding "To honor Her" to the start second line would have made it better.

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Originally Posted by Miitan

Actually

to

omits the idea that Hydaelyn has some vested interest in having the player meet Midgardsommr and, while you may think this irrelevant, it does raise questions as to the purpose of this.

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Not if you actually read the line *immediately* before that, which you chose to omit.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Not if you actually read the line *immediately* before that, which you chose to omit.

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We can talk about that one too.

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So you too possess the Echo. That is why the phantom form cannot win over you.

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By Her gifts has thou earned a moment's reprieve.

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Neither of these mention that Hydaelyn has a reason for your meeting with Midgardsommr, merely that you won the fight due to the echo. With the English text, it sounds more as though the echo is the only reason you've won, but that's more text nuance.

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Originally Posted by Miitan

With the English text, it sounds more as though the echo is the only reason you've won, but that's more text nuance.

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No, with the English text, it's more like "I could be killing you right now, but you have the Echo, so speak." And even in the JP, it seems to be that Mid is just assuming Hyd wants you to meet. Since I'm pretty sure Hyd doesn't have a vested interest in our every action, this is just an assumption.

I fear that I will not be able to handle the content of this conversation with but two palms and one face.

Flair is good when it's done well or fittingly, like most of the game's translation actually, but here a lot of text and clarity was to thrown out in favor of even more epic maymays, gotta get those in at every chance.

I don't think conciseness was the right choice to localize the dragon's language, or maybe it would be if the conciseness wasn't overdone and ended up being way too concise especially in key story cutscenes.

I actually like the guy in the JP version while in the EN he's a maymay spouting dragon who just takes away the Blessing because why not, not like it really did much though and we only got that in 2.0 with the crystals and was only really used in Praetorium mechanics wise, and it's actually separate from the Echo we already had before apparently.

Maybe I'm a savant or something, but all the stuff people are claiming wasn't conveyed in the English dialogue I picked up on just fine.
The translation of this game is one of the best I've read -- full of character and skilled use of words. People who want a dry, literal translation are not going to get their way, because the style of FFXIV's localization team is, in my opinion, one of it's shining points and I doubt I'm alone in thinking so.

Why people are pissed that there is some vagueness in Mid's dialogue baffle me -- acting as if all these plot points are not going to be fully explained and restated later on in the story as well -- everything is going to be made clear when the time is necessary for it to be.

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

First things first: thank you for the lore chunks about dragonspeak in ARR.

Moving on...



With respect, this is just unprofessional.

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I don't think it is and I have a degree in linguistics and am currently working as a translator for a company. How about you?

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Originally Posted by MeeDeggiThePunisher

That's a failing on your part.

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What? That I understood everything in the english version and didn't need the word to word japanese to reveal some hidden meaning? I don't think it is I who failed.

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Originally Posted by Nialle

Maybe I'm a savant or something, but all the stuff people are claiming wasn't conveyed in the English dialogue I picked up on just fine.

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Me too. High five!

Don't forget guys there is plot summary in the completed quest log.

http://i.imgur.com/ccrYvNI.png

I feel like reading this text helps to bridge the gap a little more, but it could still probably be worded better. In the future, where things like dragonspeak might get in the way of our understanding of plot points, it might be a good idea to be more straightforward when writing the quest summary text.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Just to include several pop culture references is not. The fact that the Ishigardians are preparing to "Sin again" being the reason for the new surge is an important point. The current translation makes it seem that the Dragons are just being vindictive.

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Since he never elaborates on Ishgard's sins, it seems vindictive no matter the version.

I see 4 major points missed out:

1. Ishgard is planning to sin again. This is the big one, really; changing the shout out to something like "We act, that history not repeat." That's suitably vague.
2. Hydaelin wants us to meet Middy and receive yet another blessing. Or to be more precise, it's by her will that this entire scenario is unfolding. I don't think it's that important, really.
3. Middy sealed the blessing to test us. In the English version, he seems to have done it for no reason; there is some subtext there, but it's too subtle for most to pick up on. An actual worded hint would have made it less of an issue.
4. Middy believes that the war can't be stopped, but it's impact could be lessened. It's been mentioned that omitting this makes the situation more tense, and I find myself agreeing. The odds are genuinely against us here, and that makes it more exciting.

Really, the only part that's that important is the first one. I find it likely that it will be elaborated on later, hopefully without it feeling like it was pulled out of nowhere.

I'm still not entirely sure how Ishgard doing things a big dragon doesn't like is a surprise that we need spelled out for us.

It implies that there's something specific that Ishgard has in mind.

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Originally Posted by Jacost

It implies that there's something specific that Ishgard has in mind.

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Does it though? Is that specifically what the Japanese implies, or is Middy essentially just saying, "We must punish Ishgard for having sinned before; what's more they shall sin again!" Is it foreshadowing or just him trying to give emphasis to his statement?

I wonder, how many people arguing either side of this actually speak both English and Japanese at the native, collegiate level. I know I sure as hell don't, but Ferne and his team damn well do. And reading a translation of the original Japanese doesn't seem to give me any new information. And honestly, there are parts of the English translation that I would have translated grammatically different (my reading is better than my speaking/listening). "They want to sin again-" I would have gone with "Those people shall sin again." Volitional is a tricky case.

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Originally Posted by Miitan

We can talk about that one too...
Neither of these mention that Hydaelyn has a reason for your meeting with Midgardsormr, merely that you won the fight due to the echo. With the English text, it sounds more as though the echo is the only reason you've won, but that's more text nuance.

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"By Her [Hydaelyn's] gift [of the echo] you have earned a moment of reprieve [from this battle/me killing and eating you/the entire Dravanian war/etc...]. Speak, mortal, and I shall listen [since said gift has earned you the opportunity on account of not being dead]." Did I miss anything from the translation there? I can also parse any other part that is unclear to anyone.

It seems that the biggest problem is that in addition to the English being much more economical and nuanced, is that at times, something is said in one language that is said before or after in another. Also, the Japanese is SO repetitive. The translation that everyone is going by seriously reads like the "Speed Racer dub" version. Based on what Ferne said, they probably took a VERY similar translation as a first draft and pared it down by combining concepts and omitting useless repetition. So not only do you not get a line by line rendering, you also end up with nearly every word and phrase in English doing multiple things AND referencing back and forth in the dialogue.

While I do appreciate and respect the work gone into this I am worried based on the examples that we EN players are missing out on detail.
If the examples thus far are accurately translated then what's more worriesome is that it seems the character and the mood of the delivery has changed quite drastically in the process.

Having said this crotique I do commend the translation team for listening to players and dropping the old english that was in 1.0 in favor of clarity.

This situation seems a bit similar in the way it seems the translators need for creative freedom has stepped on the clarity of the message itself. Keep up the good work guys.

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Originally Posted by Delily

That's the point. From the English translation I think the key points are pretty clear. Midgardsomr made a pact with Hydalyen, and thus he has claimed us for himself and has started to test us. The skirmishes between the dravians and Ishgard about to erupt into a full on war. The version the Japansese got basically added "..but everything will be fine!" whereas our version adds an element of suspense.

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I do think you should read the Japanese translation. There was a fair bit more explicit information than "but everything will be fine" and the fact that we were debating on mumble what Midgarsomr really meant should never even have happened due to the fact the Japanese had a clear and concise conversation with the dragon that made it all clear. No room for debate. Only facts. The disparity is the problem. Some people being able to discern the true meaning doesn't change that disparity and doesn't change the fact we shouldn't be debating the meaning of his words at all since the Japanese players never had to do that either. Our experiences should be the same in this regard. Good for you that you were able to get what he was saying. I had the right of his words as well when we debated it on mumble. That doesn't mean I have to be so full of myself for being right that I ignore the plainly bad translation we got instead.

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Originally Posted by Ethys

I'm happy to do the work for you - it's not simple but the meaning is definitely discernible without referring back to the Japanese. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lrpwWCKnEc

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I'm sorry but in your zest to patronize the crap out of me you took my complaint as some sort of tacit admission to not understanding what the dragon said. Don't make assumptions about people. My complaint in no way shape or form means "I didn't get it."

I really do find it interesting that much of this argument comes down to "I read a translation!" with that second hand translation being the grounds for judgment. Personally, I have watched it in both and I think the issue comes down to that in Japanese much of this information is spelled out whereas in English the information IS there though it is up to the player to find it.

Also, please don't make such harsh judgments if you are not, in fact, able to understand all of the dialogue for yourself without the use of a 3rd party.

tldr; both translations are great and both convey the same info.

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Originally Posted by MercuryD

tldr; both translations are great and both convey the same info.

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The simple fact that this debate exists in this thread, others in the general forum, reddit, etc shows that to not be the case. It may be for you, but clearly there is a problem beyond just you.

Quoting myself from another thread.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

It was an authorial decision to make Midgardsormr's relationship with the player more ambiguous in the English version, perhaps to set up a more dramatic reveal later. The EN team is no less a part of the lore/story team than any other language, including Japanese. The story in this game is a collaborative effort and the EN team decided to characterize EN Midgardsormr in this way, making him more mysterious, terse, and ambiguously adversarial than his JP characterization. You are free to dislike that authorial choice, but it's no less "correct" than the Japanese version because all people involved are full-fledged "authors" of the work.

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The Japanese script is not the "original" script which was translated into English. Japanese and English language speakers are all authors who collaborated to create the original script in two languages. There is no "translation team", there is an English language team which worked on the English version of the script. No translation ever happened and therefore there is nothing lost in translation.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

the fact that we were debating on mumble what Midgarsomr really meant should never even have happened due to the fact the Japanese had a clear and concise conversation with the dragon that made it all clear. No room for debate. Only facts. The disparity is the problem. Some people being able to discern the true meaning doesn't change that disparity and doesn't change the fact we shouldn't be debating the meaning of his words at all since the Japanese players never had to do that either. Our experiences should be the same in this regard. Good for you that you were able to get what he was saying. I had the right of his words as well when we debated it on mumble. That doesn't mean I have to be so full of myself for being right that I ignore the plainly bad translation we got instead.

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This is one of the biggest points for me. If it should be designed to be vague and having people "theory-craft" about it, it'd be different. The fact that two different audiences reach different conclusions means something went wrong. This isn't the end of Inception where you're supposed to wonder about the stupid spinning totem and wonder if it's a dream. One clearly portrays Midgardsormr as one who is testing your worth. The other seems to mock you, taunt you.

As such, my reaction to Midgardsormr who is mocking me is one made out of indignance. "This asshole is making fun of me! I'll show him who's who!" The reaction to the other Midgardsormr is different. It's curious and wanting to prove my worth. I'm not doing it to stick it to the man.

Honestly, I think that losing a point or two was worth it to give the big guy an actual personality beyond "textdumpguy".

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

The simple fact that this debate exists in this thread, others in the general forum, reddit, etc shows that to not be the case. It may be for you, but clearly there is a problem beyond just you.

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This debate doesn't exist because of any problems in the translation.

This debate exists because some people treat Japanese like a sacred language and have no idea what a proper translation/localization is. Calling the English version a "plainly bad translation" is simply ridiculous.

Did we also take into account the cultural context? You know like how Japanese indirectness is different than english indirectness. Like how not bad in english means not bad, and not bad in japanese means fucking trash. As all professional linguists I also had a course called cross-cultural pragmatics. It was very enlightening.

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

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Originally Posted by Wadoka

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

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Shaka, when the walls fell.