Healers tanking low level dungeons

just let them go and die
might take a few try but ultimately they should get the message

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Then DON'T queue DF and make a premade party... Don't try to play coy. I'm well aware of the descript in DF requirements I've done 4 WHM dungeon runs before with friends...

It's not about outside the box, it's about helping others that were apparently lost or new...

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Low level duty roulette can't be done as a premade party, I was doing it for the tome bonus.

If he wanted to talk and ask questions, I would have answered his questions. But he wanted to stand there doing not moving for long periods of time, so I decided to kill some incredibly weak trash mobs while I waited on him to do something.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

just let them go and die
might take a few try but ultimately they should get the message

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Lol. I like this guy...

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Low level duty roulette can't be done as a premade party, I was doing it for the tome bonus.

If he wanted to talk and ask questions, I would have answered his questions. But he wanted to stand there doing not moving for long periods of time, so I decided to kill some incredibly weak trash mobs while I waited on him to do something.

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My point still stands. lol...

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Not until u try it my friend, not until u try it ;)
Been doing it since 2.0 and will keep going post 3.0 ^^
Maybe my findings will pay off someday when se decides to make this game a little more in depth in stats.

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Again, we're looking at a matter of just because you can doesn't mean you should. I can tank as a Bard. I could probably tank as anything, really. But if there's already a tank in the party - whether they're good or not - am I efficiently playing my role by trying to overtake them and do their job? This speed obsession really does foster all kinds of negativity in the player community, as Zedd mentioned. Sure everything may go faster, but is ANYONE actually even having fun at this point? I mean, truly think about that before firing off a defiant yes or a rebuttal. . .

As an addendum to an earlier statement, if this type of behavior keeps up, and say new/inexperienced tanks learn that they don't NEED to do their job or start expecting healers to take the lead of the party or tank beside them, and that leads to an overall decline in quality tanks, if not another tank shortage, OR in the most extreme cases causes SE to make changes to either roles that the community might not like, I say you have absolutely NO right to complain. You brought it on yourselves.

What was your point again, that the tank is the tank, and that's why they call him the tank cause he tanks?

Or that it's the tank's job to set the pace for the dungeon, and everyone else has to put up with it, even if it means pulling a small group of mobs then standing there for 3 minutes before going to the next group?

Or that it's about someone else enjoying the game?

Or that you should explain how the game works to someone who does not communicate whatsoever?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Again, we're looking at a matter of just because you can doesn't mean you should. I can tank as a Bard. I could probably tank as anything, really. But if there's already a tank in the party - whether they're good or not - am I efficiently playing my role by trying to overtake them and do their job?

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In low level dungeons, what makes a tank a better tank than an archer? Same gear available, slightly more HP. What makes it less efficient for the group of mobs to be spread around hitting multiple people while whispering dawn regens everyone in the party?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

What was your point again, that the tank is the tank, and that's why they call him the tank cause he tanks?

Or that it's the tank's job to set the pace for the dungeon, and everyone else has to put up with it, even if it means pulling a small group of mobs then standing there for 3 minutes before going to the next group?

Or that it's about someone else enjoying the game?

Or that you should explain how the game works to someone who does not communicate whatsoever?

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Ha! Ok. So you want to go the sarcastic route I see...

Yes, I've made several points in this very thread, but to answer your question and refrain from replying sarcastically myself, I'll quote and add emphasis to my point:

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

What's the hurt in trying?????????

Take things on a case by case basis. That's what separates good players from the bad. By you not taking the chance as an experienced player, makes you just as guilty as the bad/new player...


It's not about outside the box, it's about helping others that were apparently lost or new...

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

What was your point again, that the tank is the tank, and that's why they call him the tank cause he tanks?

Or that it's the tank's job to set the pace for the dungeon, and everyone else has to put up with it, even if it means pulling a small group of mobs then standing there for 3 minutes before going to the next group?

Or that it's about someone else enjoying the game?

Or that you should explain how the game works to someone who does not communicate whatsoever?

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This is all conjecture. You're not listening to anything at this point, but merely looking for something to pick apart and use in a rebuttal. So let me be blunt:

Your tank - for whatever reason, good or bad, which you didn't even KNOW - was just standing around. You previously mentioned he seemed lost. You at that point decided to bypass him and pull mobs. You are wrong for that. Whether you care or not, you - the experienced player - were wrong to selfishly make that determination and break your role.

That tank might not be bad, but by not communicating with him, you just made him bad.

Well put ThirdChild.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

In low level dungeons, what makes a tank a better tank than an archer? Same gear available, slightly more HP. What makes it less efficient for the group of mobs to be spread around hitting multiple people while whispering dawn regens everyone in the party?

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Remember this in Heavensward when Astrologians and Machinists rush in and bypass Dark Knights, regardless of level. Remember these exact words.

And let there be no complaints.

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Yumi_umi: I've come to accept that there is no reasoning with you or your absurd methods. I will end my future responses to you with this:

It's not about faster, faster, faster... what about enjoying the game? Or even letting the newer or inexperienced people enjoy the game. This mentality that you adopt is very awkwardly elitist and me, me ,me, me, me... It's pretty distasteful imho. So from this point on I won't respond to you unless you are asking for clarification or whatnot on my posts. And no I'm not mad at you, it's just that you are on a planet we humans have yet to identify in the solar system when discussing this topic. lol

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Going to have to join you on this one Zedd.

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

By you not taking the chance as an experienced player, makes you just as guilty as the bad/new player...

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My issue is, I don't consider him guilty of anything, nor do I consider what I did wrong.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

This is all conjecture. You're not listening to anything at this point, but merely looking for something to pick apart and use in a rebuttal. So let me be blunt:

Your tank - for whatever reason, good or bad, which you didn't even KNOW - was just standing around. You previously mentioned he seemed lost. You at that point decided to bypass him and pull mobs. You are wrong for that. Whether you care or not, you - the experienced player - were wrong to selfishly make that determination and break your role.

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And this is back to "the tank is supposed to tank because he's the tank and that's why they call him the tank because he tanks."

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Remember this in Heavensward when Astrologians and Machinists rush in and bypass Dark Knights, regardless of level. Remember these exact words.

And let there be no complaints.

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Look at the thread title and discussion up to this point. People will learn when the mobs start hitting hard enough to need a real tank, and in the noob dungeons it doesn't matter. If a tank wants to learn how to hold hate, they can learn as much from a training dummy as they can a beginner dungeon.

Tanks get good through experience, you don't get that on a training dummy. The lower level dungeons are the way they are so they can get used to the role so that by the time it is key for them to do it "for reals" they're prepared. Not everyone has been playing MMOs for years or has multiple 50s, there are still people playing for the first time or playing a tank for the first time.

And people wonder why so many people don't know their roles when that attitude is out there.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

My issue is, I don't consider him guilty of anything, nor do I consider what I did wrong.

And this is back to "the tank is supposed to tank because he's the tank and that's why they call him the tank because he tanks."


Look at the thread title and discussion up to this point. People will learn when the mobs start hitting hard enough to need a real tank, and in the noob dungeons it doesn't matter. If a tank wants to learn how to hold hate, they can learn as much from a training dummy as they can a beginner dungeon.

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Sorry, but I'm gonna get this out of the way first: You literally make no sense here... I almost feel like you're the tank you should've counseled and i'm you in your prior scenario, where I should coach or help you understand why what you did was actually wrong in assuming someone elses role... Instead of helping them understand their role so that they can do their job for a more efficient and effective dungeon run...

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Originally Posted by Gorvi

Tanks get good through experience, you don't get that on a training dummy. The lower level dungeons are the way they are so they can get used to the role so that by the time it is key for them to do it "for reals" they're prepared. Not everyone has been playing MMOs for years or has multiple 50s, there are still people playing for the first time or playing a tank for the first time.

And people wonder why so many people don't know their roles when that attitude is out there.

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YAS! Werd to Gorvi. The point I am trying to get across...

After reading this thread, I'm thinking I may really just dodge the DF for my tank jobs. I've only got 10 more levels to cap on both anyway, and lots of leve allowances. I can only imagine what kind of hell I might get into if I end up in Stone Vigil and people are pulling while I'm still trying to figure the best way to separate the patrols from everything else.

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Originally Posted by Ninster

After reading this thread, I'm thinking I may really just dodge the DF for my tank jobs. I've only got 10 more levels to cap on both anyway, and lots of leve allowances. I can only imagine what kind of hell I might get into if I end up in Stone Vigil and people are pulling while I'm still trying to figure the best way to separate the patrols from everything else.

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It's really not that bad, I took my Warrior from 25 to 50 a month or so ago and had no such problem. Honestly, they try that crap in Stone Vigil and all you need to do is stand there while they get stomped. By that point they simply can't run out like a lunatic shouting "Eat my face!" and not have the mobs do just that.

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Originally Posted by Ninster

After reading this thread, I'm thinking I may really just dodge the DF for my tank jobs. I've only got 10 more levels to cap on both anyway, and lots of leve allowances. I can only imagine what kind of hell I might get into if I end up in Stone Vigil and people are pulling while I'm still trying to figure the best way to separate the patrols from everything else.

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You're on Goblin, the same as ThirdChild. I'm sure she would be good to you as I would if you were on Shiva with me or even if I ran into you in DF. But you are the prime example of a new tanker in development that can grow for greatness with proper lessons, minus the impatient, selfish, elitist dickheads and/or other dickery...

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Sorry, but I'm gonna get this out of the way first: You literally make no sense here... I almost feel like you're the tank you should've counseled and i'm you in your prior scenario, where I should coach or help you understand why what you did was actually wrong in assuming someone elses role... Instead of helping them understand their role so that they can do their job for a more efficient and effective dungeon run...

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So am I also playing BLM wrong when I assume someone else's role there? Tossing Eye for Eye on the tank, or using a Physick when the healer is briefly incapacitated, or burning down an add as it spawns before the tank can establish hate, are all these things stealing someone else's role?

The more effective and efficient dungeon run isn't always one where the tank holds hate on everything 100% of the time.

I have no problem helping someone new, if they ask for help or say they are new. If they don't say so much as hello and just stand still doing nothing, it's a different story. I feel I taught him two valuable lessons about the game.

1 - don't expect strangers to stand around and wait on you while the dungeon timer expires.
2 - don't expect to get help if you don't ask for it

I have a lvl 50 WAR - levelled mostly via leves before ARR landed. I levelled it initially to get some cross skill I needed (for THM, I believe, and yeah I know that sounds ridiculous, it was a damage mitigation move and parties took THMs to Ifrit hard mode back then). Found I enjoyed it and finished it to 50 (more leves!). I'm really looking forward to DRK when it comes out, but despite having levelled WAR, I haven't actually tanked much (see above). So I thought I'd give GLD/PLD a go. I'm now at low-level dungeon stage. I've run these dungeons many times as DPS and Healer, but the thought of tanking them fills me with terror.I am completely new to it, not sure of the dungeon maps (everyone blindly follows the tank, right?) not entirely sure of the mechanics of each fight from the tank angle. But the thing that really puts me off is over geared DPS/Healers not being patient with my newb tank and refusing to allow me the time to learn. Reading this thread has really made me wonder if I should forget the whole thing. I'm there to get experience in my job, learn it through and through, hopefully with helpful team mates. It's a levelling dungeon so I'd also like to get as much XP as possible. Is all of this too much to ask?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

So am I also playing BLM wrong when I assume someone else's role there? Tossing Eye for Eye on the tank, or using a Physick when the healer is briefly incapacitated, or burning down an add as it spawns before the tank can establish hate, are all these things stealing someone else's role?

The more effective and efficient dungeon run isn't always one where the tank holds hate on everything 100% of the time.

I have no problem helping someone new, if they ask for help or say they are new. If they don't say so much as hello and just stand still doing nothing, it's a different story. I feel I taught him two valuable lessons about the game.

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LOL don't get me started on the BLM assumption of roles and especially with BLM burning an add down before tank establishes hate... 9 times out of 10 the BLM pulls that hate and takes damage assuming the role of the tank. And it always leads to a tank trying to rescue the BLM that is kiting said add and nearing the brink of death, causing chaos in other directions with the rest of the hate flocking to healer cause the tank has to chase your hate, etc. Then they blame the tank or healer once they die, instead of

A. Allowing the tank to establish hate before you start chanting your Harry Potter spells
B. Running the hate to the tank, if they pull it off the tank in the first place (which happens frequently)

Again, two wrongs does not make a right, just because they did not speak or ask does not mean they do/don't need help. It does not hurt for you to ask or offer, especially where you spot area of opportunity as the seasoned/experienced player. Some players may have just gotten out of a really bad DF experience where they got their ass chewed for not knowing (when they may have just purchased the game not too long ago) and probably afraid to ask questions in fear of the same treatment...

The most that can happen is they decline your help/advice and then you can carry-on as you so please.

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1 - don't expect strangers to stand around and wait on you while the dungeon timer expires.
2 - don't expect to get help if you don't ask for it

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The above as far as I am concern is crap and more of your way to justify to yourself that you did the right thing. Now I see what ThirdChild was referring to with saying the following: "This is all conjecture. You're not listening to anything at this point, but merely looking for something to pick apart and use in a rebuttal."

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

"This is all conjecture. You're not listening to anything at this point, but merely looking for something to pick apart and use in a rebuttal."

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To be perfectly fair, the pair of you are doing exactly the same thing.

Here's the fact of the matter.

Some people run into a low level dungeon with the intent to speed run it like WP circa 2.1 bolting ahead and pulling everything that moves and completely ignoring a tanks pleas for help.

On the other hand, you may be content to run at any given pace and help a tank out, who then proceeds to mindlessly spam fracture on a single target with no response to your communication attempts at all. Your potential help is just further wasted time, it's a lost cause.

I'm sure everyone here is sensible enough to realize the middle ground is where 95% of runs go.

Maybe you don't understand what conjecture is. The main points I've made:

• Tank stood for long periods of time doing nothing
• Tank acted like he didn't know what was going on (this one kind of is)
• The trash mobs are incredibly weak, so I pulled them rather than wait on him
• Any job can tank just as well as a "tank" in the beginner dungeons
• He was a gladiator, which has no moves other than sprint to use up all TP in a low level dungeon, which I never saw him use
• I could see him at full MP, he wasn't waiting on that
• He never said anything in chat, I did
• I don't blame him or call him a bad tank
• I don't consider what I did wrong

The main points other people have made:

• This is why there are bad tanks at end game
• He could have become a good tank had I instructed him
• Only tanks are allowed to tank
• He was wrong
• There is only one acceptable way to play or else you're wrong
• If you don't instruct new people or anyone not playing that way of the right way to play, then you're wrong
• This game is like a cult

I hear exactly what you're saying, and I disagree and state my reason, or ask for your reason. The response is basically "because that's the way it is," or "because what you're doing is making bad tanks (this is conjecture, btw)." Things worked just fine my way, and for all I know the tank was happy that things turned out this way, since he never said anything (some more conjecture for you).

First off, if you're so justified in what you did, there's little reason to be defensive about it. I said what I said to make a point, and work a little psychology on you as well. I apologize for that and only that, but the fact remains that you've taken a defensive stance on what you felt was a good move for the situation. Were it actually the right thing to do, then there'd be little reason to take the defensive. But at this point, I'm just being fecetious in saying that.

If he was so truly unresponsive, then no, I won't disagree with your actions. And no, never once did I say only tanks can tank. I pride myself of being able to tank as a Bard, the weakest DPS. But just because I can doesn't mean I will the moment a tank hesitates or runs into trouble, but perhaps I'm more patient than I ought to be. The only time I'll tank outside of actually queuing as a tank is if the tank goes down, or in special cases where I can simply do my part to intercept something my tank might miss, or to ease his burden. And even then, it's never done spitefully. I get your point, really I do. Healers aren't weak at all. We can take a few hits and keep doing what we do best. But fact is, we're healers. Carts don't pull horses, horses pull carts. This means, simply: tanks don't heal, and healers don't tank. Maybe they can, but that is not what the role or class is built around.

I will retract my statement that by not communicating you made him into a bad tank. That was harsh in delivery. But the core of it stands. If you're the experienced player and you don't make an effort to help those who are coming up, then you can't complain when there's one more fresh 50 who doesn't know his role properly. No, none of us are responsible for each and every other player, and some simply can't be taught. Again, not a fault of our own. But the community is built or destroyed by communication and cooperation. If we all go in selfishly pursuing our own interests and ready to step over each other just for the sake of speed, then we deserve to fail.

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Originally Posted by Ninster

After reading this thread, I'm thinking I may really just dodge the DF for my tank jobs. I've only got 10 more levels to cap on both anyway, and lots of leve allowances. I can only imagine what kind of hell I might get into if I end up in Stone Vigil and people are pulling while I'm still trying to figure the best way to separate the patrols from everything else.

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I missed this earlier, but yes, like Zedd said, I'm happy to help however I can. I'll be the first to say I'm not the world's greatest tank. But that's what I started as. If nothing else, I know the basics, and I know how to be patient and do the most important job of the role - mitigate threats to the party. Seek me out anytime. I'll be glad to help :)

Why are you so satisfied with mediocrity? That's like obese people saying they are perfectly healthy. You always put down better players instead of becoming inspired with new possibilities.

A healer who is moving forward and pulling more is teaching the new and/or bad tank that he should be pulling at a higher pace since the party is obviously capable of it, without having to speak a single word in chat.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Why are you so satisfied with mediocrity? That's like obese people saying they are perfectly healthy. You always put down better players instead of becoming inspired with new possibilities.

A healer who is moving forward and pulling more is teaching the new and/or bad tank that he should be pulling at a higher pace since the party is obviously capable of it, without having to speak a single word in chat.

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No, he's being a bad example by doing that. A healer who is explaining things to the tank, how bosses work, which moves and combos work better for aggro gain, is teaching the tank well. One who is just running ahead is being, pardon my french, a dumbass, and needs to stop entering lower level dungeons if they want dungeons to go faster.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Why are you so satisfied with mediocrity? That's like obese people saying they are perfectly healthy. You always put down better players instead of becoming inspired with new possibilities.

A healer who is moving forward and pulling more is teaching the new and/or bad tank that he should be pulling at a higher pace since the party is obviously capable of it, without having to speak a single word in chat.

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Ellatrix, do you know who you remind me of? I can't recall the name, but do you remember the "bad" guy of the Lancer quests? The one who's idea of being a true Lancer was to be unwavering in the face of danger, but was really just reckless. I mean no disrespect by that, and I certainly do acknowledge your ability. But this isn't a matter of doing something because you can, to help teach another. This was purely "you're taking too long, step aside."

I've got nothing against Spartan training, and I certainly believe in the value of taking the hard road. I'm not good at the game because I'm some kind of prodigy, I'm good at it purely through hard work. In the case of healing, I personally asked FC members to put me through a "Hell Run" of Stone Vigil for the first time. Tank in crafting gear. A Bard super-kiting. And me in a Glacial Coat - pre Glamours. It was hell. Fun, but hell. But this was something coordinated among us in order to push me to learn. Controlled chaos if you will.

The previously mentioned scenario by Stouter was NOT that. The tank was unresponsive and taking too long for reasons unknown. So he pulled instead. Maybe it worked out and that's great, but it wasn't him saying "hey, let me show you something that might help" (and no, he doesn't HAVE to say that, so let that not be a point to contest), no, this was him stepping over the tank and assuming the role himself. Sure, it worked out, and maybe everyone walked away from that satisfied. But look at his posts, carefully please, and notice how much of it amounts to justification of actions taken that are in fact, largely outside of the realm of his primary abilities. No, this is not "tanks tank because they're tanks" or some such nonsense. But this is saying that there's little to be learned when you're shoved aside and someone just takes over. Maybe some can, but let's be realistic here; most wouldn't learn. Call me cynical if you will.

I cut this from my previous post purely for length, but there's a very good point to be made in it:

I used to work on aircraft in the military. I had trouble with ground refueling operations in the beginning. I was the worst. As much as one NCO wanted to push me aside and do it so that we'd be done faster, another who became one of my greatest teachers did something both worse and better: He stuck me on nothing but refuels for 2 solid weeks. That. SUCKED. But I became a bloody guru at it. I was training new people on it my final day. . . Had I been pushed aside way back when, what would I have learned?

I'm NOT satisfied with mediocrity. Which is exactly why I wouldn't foster it.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

snip

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Snarky response then slight backpedaling before getting back on point, well played.

But then you stick with how things should be done because that's the way they should be done. Healer dies in a boss fight, you should wipe. Even if you were able to finish off the boss by kiting after the other three people had died, you should have just wiped and done the fight the "right way."

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

But look at his posts, carefully please, and notice how much of it amounts to justification of actions taken that are in fact, largely outside of the realm of his primary abilities. No, this is not "tanks tank because they're tanks" or some such nonsense. But this is saying that there's little to be learned when you're shoved aside and someone just takes over. Maybe some can, but let's be realistic here; most wouldn't learn. Call me cynical if you will.

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Maybe they didn't learn the other way, and this is the way that actually hits home. Again you use conjecture, feel free to accuse me of doing the same. My point remains that you don't need a tank class tanking lowbie dungeons, and the tank isn't the only job in the group that can lead a party. Deflect and insult, accuse me of being defensive again, that seemed to work well.

Ok, enough Stouter. Seriously. You made a decision and you feel justified in it. Some agree. Some disagree. I disagree. Let's not sit here and pick things apart for petty rebuttals. And don't try to strip the points I've made down to something so banal as "sticking to how it should be done". Believe me, thinking on my feet to get the job done is something I excel at, whether I like it or not. It's a good skill to have, but it's a poor thing to use as justification for one's actions, right or wrong. If you think I've been insulting you, you're again wrong. There's no room or reason to be so petty here. I disagree with your actions, and that's the beginning and end of it. There's nothing worth insulting you over. I however do retain my previous statement that if what you did was so right, you would not feel the need to defend it so strongly, nor justify it. Again, not an insult, merely a solid stance on my statement. Take it as you will.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

To be perfectly fair, the pair of you are doing exactly the same thing.

Here's the fact of the matter.

Some people run into a low level dungeon with the intent to speed run it like WP circa 2.1 bolting ahead and pulling everything that moves and completely ignoring a tanks pleas for help.

On the other hand, you may be content to run at any given pace and help a tank out, who then proceeds to mindlessly spam fracture on a single target with no response to your communication attempts at all. Your potential help is just further wasted time, it's a lost cause.

I'm sure everyone here is sensible enough to realize the middle ground is where 95% of runs go.

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Except, we are not doing the same thing. I will however say you and he are doing the same thing. I made a valid point to try. The two of you come up with the "bad what if" scenarios. It's like the two of you are trying to justify that ignoring helping/teaching a new/bad tank a thing or two to strengthen the party and the future tank in general is a bad thing, so you'd rather assume the worse and in turn assume someone else's role and set bad examples.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Hot Air

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Like ThirdChild said, you are pretty much trying to justify to yourself that what you did was right, and you were not. You only made the situation worse, by not even trying to better the player for future instances, but you'd be the first person to cry if you met this tank in a duty you'd need him in, and then you'd flame him for being a bad tank. I am 150% positive you wouldn't even think back on this thread or your earlier run in with said tank and think "Damn I should have given him pointers, and maybe I would not have this problem now" But by then it will be too late, as the damage has already been done and because the tank will pretty much be set in his way that what he was doing was right. And Further I BET you would not even help him in that aspect but just leave the duty and blame the tank for the failure...

Again, you set a bad example and there is no way in hell you can justify that you did the right thing in that scenario we've been discussing. You were showboating at best. End Of. Story.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Why are you so satisfied with mediocrity? That's like obese people saying they are perfectly healthy. You always put down better players instead of becoming inspired with new possibilities.

A healer who is moving forward and pulling more is teaching the new and/or bad tank that he should be pulling at a higher pace since the party is obviously capable of it, without having to speak a single word in chat.

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My reply to this is exactly what RyuDragnier said I will quote it again in case you missed Ellatrix...

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

No, he's being a bad example by doing that. A healer who is explaining things to the tank, how bosses work, which moves and combos work better for aggro gain, is teaching the tank well. One who is just running ahead is being, pardon my french, a dumbass, and needs to stop entering lower level dungeons if they want dungeons to go faster.

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Werd.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Ellatrix, do you know who you remind me of? I can't recall the name, but do you remember the "bad" guy of the Lancer quests? The one who's idea of being a true Lancer was to be unwavering in the face of danger, but was really just reckless. I mean no disrespect by that, and I certainly do acknowledge your ability. But this isn't a matter of doing something because you can, to help teach another. This was purely "you're taking too long, step aside."

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LOL you are SO right!

Foulques was his name. And yes I think we should start a petition thread and request SE to change his name and sex to reflect Ellatrix. She's got Foulques beat by a whole galaxy and makes him look like a good guy.

It's only happened to me once when my toon was 17 on marauder. Stupid healer kept complaining about me pulling too slowly, kept insisting I gather up more and more, which I kept ignoring, until he freaked out and took over (failing miserably.)

The issue is that if my marauder is a true level 17 in bronze armor (no greens), I literally can't gather three groups of mobs at once. I don't care how high the healer's item level is, I'll be dead within a global cooldown. Lazy high level healers (Or more precisely, lazy high level dps players who happened to level a healing job on the side) who think everyone should be able to zoom along according to their demanding schedules can go eat a fork. It's nothing new though. Healing's such a clutch role that it's always attracted a sizeable amount of dumb in any number of games.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

It's only happened to me once when my toon was 17 on marauder. Stupid healer kept complaining about me pulling too slowly, kept insisting I gather up more and more, which I kept ignoring, until he freaked out and took over (failing miserably.)

The issue is that if my marauder is a true level 17 in bronze armor (no greens), I literally can't gather three groups of mobs at once. I don't care how high the healer's item level is, I'll be dead within a global cooldown. Lazy high level healers (Or more precisely, lazy high level dps players who happened to level a healing job on the side) who think everyone should be able to zoom along according to their demanding schedules can go eat a fork. It's nothing new though. Healing's such a clutch role that it's always attracted a sizeable amount of dumb in any number of games.

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You make a very good point with recognizing your gear and what you can handle. And you made the right call IMO. Some healers/DPS need a lesson the hard way (Death), when trying to assume the tanks role. Dunno if I agree with healing being a clutch as much as it is a necessity in this game, but you're entitled to your own opinion on the matter and it cannot be argued with...

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Like ThirdChild said, you are pretty much trying to justify to yourself that what you did was right, and you were not. You only made the situation worse, by not even trying to better the player for future instances, but you'd be the first person to cry if you met this tank in a duty you'd need him in, and then you'd flame him for being a bad tank, and I am 150% positive you wouldn't even think back on this thread or your earlier run in with said tank and think "Damn I should have given him pointers, and maybe I would not have this problem now" But by then it will be too late because the tank is set in his way that what he was doing was right.

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I never said he was a bad tank, just that he was doing nothing for long periods of time between pulls, and seemed lost the few times he was leading us through the dungeon. I've partied with several horrible tanks in higher level dungeons, and have yet to cry or flame them. If anything, it makes the dungeon a little more than the normal zombie grind. The duty finder is not a place where harassing other players about their playstyle should be welcomed. Feel free to do that in a static or FC/linkshell party, but not when it's 4 strangers together for 15-30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I never said he was a bad tank, just that he was doing nothing for long periods of time between pulls, and seemed lost the few times he was leading us through the dungeon. I've partied with several horrible tanks in higher level dungeons, and have yet to cry or flame them. If anything, it makes the dungeon a little more than the normal zombie grind. The duty finder is not a place where harassing other players about their playstyle should be welcomed. Feel free to do that in a static or FC/linkshell party, but not when it's 4 strangers together for 15-30 minutes.

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Stouter, I'm really done with going back and forth with you and how you nitpick at things, ignoring the bigger picture. This will most likely be my last reply to you, following a picture that really defines our situation, but I will say this first: Lower level dungeons are EXACTLY the place and time to teach a new tank. Sure it's a playground to seasoned players, but it's also a great way to train a tank on the basics and intermediate mechanics of tanking and holding hate. It all changes at Brayflox and on...

But here is the picture I wish to leave that references everything you and I have been discussing and what you've learned thus far. Enjoy.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3fhg3cbGI1qkxjf4.jpg

Simply kick the bad healer from group, if every group kicks them for acting like a tank they will not be speed running anything but duty finder looking for a group that won't kick them for being a tool.
If your in Tam Tara with a new player who never played a mmo or a tank before and we all know tanks have low agro control at those low lvl's , especially vs high geared players, then the real bad player is the healer for not controlling their agro and helping to teach the tank and possibly the group how to work together and that it's the tanks job to get hold and maintain agro and it's the group's job to watch and control their agro . I have a ilvl 111 whm and I can control my agro in low lvl dungeons even with a new tank I will very rarely get agro .
It's just bad players who think speed = skill.

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

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Again, flame and say I'm not reading what you say, which is a description of yourself. That's called projection. You declare how the game must be played, and I disagree with you. You skip that part, and just go back to flaming.

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Except, we are not doing the same thing. I will however say you and he are doing the same thing. I made a valid point to try. The two of you come up with the "bad what if" scenarios. It's like the two of you are trying to justify that ignoring helping/teaching a new/bad tank a thing or two to strengthen the party and the future tank in general is a bad thing, so you'd rather assume the worse and in turn assume someone else's role and set bad examples.

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I feel you are experiencing some reading comprehension issues. Can you please point out when I stated I instantly march on, disregarding a tanks communications?
There is helping a tank out, and then there's talking to a wall. I refuse to comply with the latter.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I used to work on aircraft in the military. I had trouble with ground refueling operations in the beginning. I was the worst. As much as one NCO wanted to push me aside and do it so that we'd be done faster, another who became one of my greatest teachers did something both worse and better: He stuck me on nothing but refuels for 2 solid weeks. That. SUCKED. But I became a bloody guru at it. I was training new people on it my final day. . . Had I been pushed aside way back when, what would I have learned?

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This is very commendable. I would never disregard someone who showed as much determination and willingness as this.
Unfortunately, this is far from the norm. The more realistic situation these days, is someone placed into that position would sit on a bench, playing with their iPhone and waiting for the day to be over.
There is a drastic difference between somebody willing to learn and someone content to do things their way, at a snails pace, disregarding the needs of the party.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

I feel I am experiencing some reading comprehension issues. Can you please point out when I stated I instantly march on, disregarding a tanks communications?
There is helping a tank out, and then there's talking to a wall. I refuse to comply with the latter.

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There, fixt that for ya...

If you look a little closer, you'll see that I was generalizing both you and Stouter in the same sentence. I never said JUST you...

Nice try though. But hey If the shoe fits, feel free to lace that bitch up and wear it :)

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Again, we\\\\\\'re looking at a matter of just because you can doesn\\\\\\'t mean you should. I can tank as a Bard. I could probably tank as anything.

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Just because i can probs means its a bad practice. But once again, if "no one " is "dead" then it simply means "no one is dead".
Tanks should know how to tank basic mobs before they even get to sastasha & know when its impossible to get back emnity. I see tanks trying to flash spam my cures till they go oom. It happened a lot that i started to think lol really now.
My cures r going to myself vs going to tank = so why treat it different?

Tanking as a bard has almost no sustain. You mean i\\\\\\'m going to "kite" and "move around so i won\\\\\\'t die" kind of tanking.