Quelling Strikes

BLM and tank main here, I've never considered using quelling strikes nor do I ever lose hate to any BLM's unless I screw up with my pull, suppose people who complain about this need to get gud.

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Originally Posted by chidarake

totally agree with the dps hitting targets mid pull as your collecting up multiple mobs.. totally unacceptable.

however hitting your intended target as you lob it or tomahawk it isn't a bad thing as blm since it will be a dot and not a fully buffed fire 3.

as pld our next move is nearly always cos and flash... and if its a big pull followed up by flash spam which in my experience is more than enough to hold of proactive dps. although less so under the hitting mobs on route.

I do agree though that letting the tank take full hate is important and so any dps should switch to the next target for atleast 1gcd move to allow the tank to gen more hate on intended target if your hate meter spikes to high or you actually do grab hate.. even if as blm it means cancelling your next cast altogether.

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I play BLM mostly in dungeons because I want to clear trash faster. I usually start casting Fire 3 when the tank is approaching and gathering the pack.

Either the tank sucks, or the BLM is stupid, or a combination of both. I actually don't have issue starting my cast as the tank approach the trash. Just target your Fire 2 at another mob within the pack instead of the same mob you hit Fire 3 with and you should be fine.

But really, some tanks in DF hold mob hate so loosely that a baby can hold his/her bladder tighter. Some tanks doesn't even bother to AoE hate control when the team have a BLM/WHM using AoE and doesn't even cycle their 1-2-3 enmity combo around the mobs (in single pack pull). It's just bad.

Thankfully JP data center doesn't have much of these issues.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

I actually don't have issue starting my cast as the tank approach the trash. Just target your Fire 2 at another mob within the pack instead of the same mob you hit Fire 3 with and you should be fine.

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Source? I've never heard of the center target of Fire II gaining more enmity than the others. As far as I can tell, the enmity gain is solely based on damage dealt.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

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I agree there is a lot of tanks who do not gen for aoe threat but that is why it is more important to give them a second on multi mob pulls.. cus otherwise your just gonna get eaten.

I tank with aoe in mind which is always enough to hold of single target as well but I'll watch that if I know there's a well geared mnk drg or nin in group. I think I do this cus I main blm and so tank how I know it needs to be done to hold hate against blms and so have no issues with two blm and a whm spammng aoe.

heck even in st ill grab all trash scare my healer and still hold hate against the whole raid since we only have to worry about the top hate generating dps in the grp anyways.

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Originally Posted by point09micron

Source? I've never heard of the center target of Fire II gaining more enmity than the others. As far as I can tell, the enmity gain is solely based on damage dealt.

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I'm not that sure but experience wise it seems to work for me. Even when I AoE on BRD, I noticed that the center target of the AoE skill seems to go down faster for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by chidarake

I agree there is a lot of tanks who do not gen for aoe threat but that is why it is more important to give them a second on multi mob pulls.. cus otherwise your just gonna get eaten.

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Sure I can, but this is fundamentally a tanking issue.

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Originally Posted by Trixxy

BLM and tank main here, I've never considered using quelling strikes nor do I ever lose hate to any BLM's unless I screw up with my pull, suppose people who complain about this need to get gud.

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Somehow all you say in this forum is elitistic and is nowhere near usefull.

If you have never used Quelling on your BLM Trixxy and never felt the need; then your DPS needs to, as you put it, get gud. Just because you never get hate doesn't mean the tank is that awesome, just means you might need to beef up a bit. Even the best tanks will lose it at times, and they know that. Your input on this topic really was unnecessary.

Aight, just my experience so far:

As a tank (Pld main):
- Depending on the dungeon / raid you are in, quelling strikes can be incredibly usefull
-> [example] "old" T7 Addspawn at 80/35% -> incredibly helpfull if the dps have it / use it
-> dungeons: large pulls -> triplle flare -> incredibly helpfull

As a Blm(left side crafted I110, full melded, right side Sol/HA I110 + Shiva Weapon I115] - NO QUELLING STRIKES
- I'm getting hate after 2 Flares allready from time to time, depending on the tank
- Attacking Adds in T9 to quickly is a death sentence

Just as example. Yes, im working my way up to Lvl 34 to get it.
Conclusion: IMHO its very very usefull if you know your Dps-Class and or raid something which includes adds spawning.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

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most tanks cant hold against double, triple flare. even more so when buffed with raging strikes, so yeah it that scenario quelling helps but I still tend to get eaten a lot. especially in st on trash.

You could easily fix this by giving tanks a one vote dismiss versus DPS. It's not like DPS aren't a dime-a-dozen anyway. Want to harass the tank? Fine, go sit in the queue for another hour. Also switch quelling with raging strikes in terms of the level you get them at.

T3 -> F3 -> Raging -> F1 -> Quelling -> F1 -> etc.

The DPS hit you take is minimal at best. If you trust your tank, you don't have to use Quelling - but I would recommend it for DF/PF always.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

T3 -> F3 -> Raging -> F1 -> Quelling -> F1 -> etc.

The DPS hit you take is minimal at best. If you trust your tank, you don't have to use Quelling - but I would recommend it for DF/PF always.

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The thing about DF is.

In a dungeon, the tank either pulls it all for you to flare it all, or pack by pack. That is the problem you will face. If your tank is bad at AoE hate control, then you won't have QS for every single pack. You're going to get eaten anyways. I've seen tanks that doesn't even hold the group at all and 2 F2 is enough to get me whacked by trash.

But if your tank is decent, you should not have issues flaring the whole street or pack by pack.

You can pre-pop Quelling and Raging before you start F2/Flare-ing. You can also pre-pop Quelling for bosses/primals. There's no real reason not to use Quelling with Raging at some point, it's a good safety net for bad tanks and it won't cost you any DPS time if you pre-pop it.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You can pre-pop Quelling and Raging before you start F2/Flare-ing. You can also pre-pop Quelling for bosses/primals. There's no real reason not to use Quelling with Raging at some point, it's a good safety net for bad tanks and it won't cost you any DPS time if you pre-pop it.

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So? If the tank is going to pull pack by pack then QS doesn't save you anyways. Okay, maybe for that one pack before the next refresh.

Bad tank is bad anyways. An average tank can typically hold a non RS double flare. Not sure what's so difficult in holding trash though. :/

One way I deal with them is to hard cast flare then swift-flare instead of swift-flare to see if fire2 or another hard cast flare.

If that hard flare caught aggro, that swift flare would probably settled everything.

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Originally Posted by dcgregorya

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seriously you cant think that is a good idea.. its so open to abuse on the tanks side, vote kicking whom you want.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

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You only need QS for RS. I dunno what you're really saying here. If the tank is losing aggro to non-RS anything then there's nothing you can do, that's just the tank being bad.

I am not sure that pre-popping of QS or RS is efficient. Wasted time and all, especially in the case of RS. I don't pop it untill after Astral Fire III is up so I get the most out of my F2's and Flares / F1's>Flare rotations. Kind of a standard DPS thing I think, maximize the up time of your buff as much as possible. I use QS a lot. I find, at times, it's easier used when you start to see that little dorito pop up next to the MOBs names...then watch is slowly turn to a gum drop.

I main BLM, but I'm leveling up both WAR and PLD, so I can a bit understand both sides....

as a BLM, my Quelling Strike usage is kinda situational.
I usually look at the aggro list, whenever I'm going to use Flare (even when convert is not up), so if I see that the aggro list is "safe", I save up Quelling for another occasion.
I usually don't bother with Quelling Strikes, if I'm way overgeared compared to the tank, and there is just 1-2 mobs close to death. I'll eventually pull from the tank, put on Manawall/ward and burn them down.
I don't use Quelling Strikes either, when I see that the tank is REEEEEALLY bad, and just lose aggro every time I cast fire1.

on the Tank side, I find it hard to lose aggro from a BLM, unless he is like in full poetics gear and doesn't give a rat's ass about aggro, and I'm sitting at lv30ish gear.... I don't even bother taking the aggro back...

what I find really frustrating, are triggerhappy bards. these folks like to pull earlyer, not even bothering to wait till I use Tomahawk/Shield Lob
generally speaking, i can't stand dps with 0 vision of the other party members.
It happens, sometimes, that while I'm getting closer to a mob so that I can use Lob/Tomkahawk, I get aggroed form a near mob instead.... by the time I cast 1-2 Flash, the've already started dpsing everithing that moves.
or, even worse, people that while I'm doing my rotation on a group of mobs, they go ahead and pull to me another one. just because they're sick of doing the dungeon for the Animus book.

oh, and let's not forget Triggerhappy WHm with fluid Aura. I want to kill them all.

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Originally Posted by Defteros

oh, and let's not forget Triggerhappy WHm with fluid Aura. I want to kill them all.

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Made me LOL....

...and that ladies and gentlemen, is a wrap!

If I'm pulling the boss as WAR, I would much prefer to use a storm combo (low enmity) first as opposed to my butcher's block combo to get maim up asap. Having quelling here can be very helpful. I can imagine a BLM pulling hate without it.

QS is good for any caster jobs. I use it on my Smn,Blm and Bard (of course) Its a helpful tool that should be used from time to time. Also, if you are overgeared and have a Full understanding of your job, get SQ. The damage diffearnce from an tank's say item level 90 compared to a Smn's item lv say 115 is great. You need QS if you plan doing any meaningful DPS'ing in some cases. ps: Using QS is not gimping yourself.

I'll admit... I often pull aggro off the tank at the beginning of a fight, even if I start with thunder 2. From there it becomes a downward spiral. I know I need to get quelling, but like a lot of people here have said, most blms(including myself) just don't wanna play bard to get quelling. I apologize though; I am fully aware it is my fault. I'll sometimes give the tank a good 5-10 seconds before I start casting just so he can maintain aggro. Maybe one day I'll go suck it up and grab it >.>

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You only need QS for RS. I dunno what you're really saying here. If the tank is losing aggro to non-RS anything then there's nothing you can do, that's just the tank being bad.

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It's just a general statement because the general notion here seems to point towards BLM using QS, RS used or not.

Which is why I said, if the tank is as bad as the one mentioned below, no shit can be done about it (wait 5-10s for tank to hold aggro first, wtf I might as well play melee DPS instead of BLM).

And yes I do happen to play with tanks in DF that I'd just tell them (Flash)(Yes, Please)(If you would be so kind)

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Originally Posted by Ryock

I'll admit... I often pull aggro off the tank at the beginning of a fight, even if I start with thunder 2. From there it becomes a downward spiral. I know I need to get quelling, but like a lot of people here have said, most blms(including myself) just don't wanna play bard to get quelling. I apologize though; I am fully aware it is my fault. I'll sometimes give the tank a good 5-10 seconds before I start casting just so he can maintain aggro. Maybe one day I'll go suck it up and grab it >.>

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I main BLM, and I'm trying to get into the habit of using Quelling as soon as it's off cooldown, unless I know I need to save it for some adds about to pop. It's instant-cast and off-GCD, so it's not like there's a DPS hit. There's no good reason not to use it whenever possible.

Having been in both situations I have become heartless.

As a tank no DPS let up for me so I had to learn to deal with it. There wasn't an excuse, on PLD and WAR.

As a BLM or any other dps. I maximize my dps as much as possible. If the tank can't keep up then there is a problem and more often than not it has to do with rotation. Now low levels <30 I can empathize with Warriors and <26 with Paladins but no Shield Oath, you're just being lazy if you can't hold threat. I still have never used quelling strikes on any dps class.

As a Healer I have let tanks die, dps die and died myself due to either DPS being jerks, Tanks not doing their job, and me getting cocky.

Healers need tanks, tanks need healers, and dps need tanks and healers to be at their best.

The only actions you can control are your own. So why worry what buff another class is doing when your priority should be maximizing your ability to do your job.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

The only actions you can control are your own. So why worry what buff another class is doing when your priority should be maximizing your ability to do your job.

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part of "doing your job" is managing hate even as dps and healer,

tanks can be amazing at there job but on big pulls its easy for one to slip by and then get pulled from them, and when dodging so many incoming attacks it can be unseen for a afew moments where as if a dps who had the ability to reduce there threat generation could have and then not died is not necessarily on the tank. yes as tanks we strive to take all enemies and keep them till there dead but on occasion things don't work how we intended.

as dps or blm in this case we should if possible use qs and rs in these situations to help make the run smoother. is it always needed.? no.. but when we can help we should its what makes us "good at our job"

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Originally Posted by Trixxy

BLM and tank main here, I've never considered using quelling strikes nor do I ever lose hate to any BLM's unless I screw up with my pull, suppose people who complain about this need to get gud.

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If you've never once pulled hate off a tank as a BLM, maybe your DPS needs to improve.

If you've never lost hate to a BLM as a tank, maybe it's because they are using QS. :3

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Originally Posted by chidarake

most tanks cant hold against double, triple flare. even more so when buffed with raging strikes, so yeah it that scenario quelling helps but I still tend to get eaten a lot. especially in st on trash.

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Yep, that's exactly when I tend to lose it. I can spam Flash till the cows come home but a double or triple flare with RS up is a massive amount of damage to everything all at once. Honestly, If the BLM isn't using QS for unloading into a huge pull that way, they deserve to get their face eaten. Hell, I've gotten my face eaten more than once and my BLM is only i110; now I always use QS with my RS. Presto! No more getting my face eaten due to double/triple flare!

I have to say, there's not much that's more fun than casting a triple flare into those huge trash pulls in ST. xD

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

your priority should be maximizing your ability to do your job.

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I completely agree. Dead dps is zero dps. A good dps can maximize their damage and still watch hate.

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Originally Posted by chidarake

part of "doing your job" is managing hate even as dps and healer,

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Healers don't get a choice in managing hate. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but in all reality if a healer doesn't heal someone dies.

As a dps you can play the "they need qs" but in all reality the tank needs to prioritize the abilities they use. Flash spam as a Paladin isn't going to cut it. No matter how you slice it, it will never work. As a paladin you need to know that and adjust accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I completely agree. Dead dps is zero dps. A good dps can maximize their damage and still watch hate.

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On group pulls like everyone is referring to. The tank and healer have a specific number of cooldowns. If the dps isn't burning them down fast enough then all the threat management doesn't matter. Because eventually the party will wipe.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

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I understand as healer you have to heal but choosing the right spell to do that with is part of healer agro control. hitting medica 2 as tank pulls trash is not a good idea and so you wouldn't do that right.!? <agro control in other words.

as dps switching to another target to give the tank a moment to stay ahead is also something every dps class can do. so it doesn't have to be quelling strikes. that being said knowing you can tank this enemy as dps and kill it before its an issue is also a good thing and can help he tank

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Originally Posted by chidarake

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In regards to your healer comment, that is just silly and any healer with common sense would know better. If I were the tank, I would let the healer die. I don't care if it results in a wipe.

Also as a dps you don't want to go schizo on a random group that the tank hasn't pulled, doesn't make sense either. Which is also why as a healer or tank I would let that dps die.

People do things that don't follow common sense and which makes your specific examples as listed above irrelevant to the current conversation and a moot point.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

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healers - exactly, regardless at how you may see it, it is agro control on behalf of the healer, grabbing hate right away may not be a good idea and I wouldn't imagine to many healers try it but they could, just like dps can go full aoe before tank pulls as well.

dps - that comment is about a tank that already has the mob but is losing hate on your primary target, switching for atleast 1 gcd move is a good thing, I never said go all out spaz on a random enemy the tank hadn't grabbed. but I will make myself clearer next time.

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as blm and other classes that have access to quelling strikes, using it on a judgement call is probs the best way, its how I do it except when raiding then I use it on either heavy dps sections or as its up.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

As a dps you can play the "they need qs" but in all reality the tank needs to prioritize the abilities they use. Flash spam as a Paladin isn't going to cut it. No matter how you slice it, it will never work. As a paladin you need to know that and adjust accordingly.

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I'm not sure how else you'd maintain aggro on 20 mobs at a time as a paladin while you have DPS aoe'ing them down. Cycling through them and hitting a grand total of one of them each GCD would be even less effective.

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On group pulls like everyone is referring to. The tank and healer have a specific number of cooldowns. If the dps isn't burning them down fast enough then all the threat management doesn't matter. Because eventually the party will wipe.

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I'm talking about big pulls too, and I know the cooldowns that tanks and healers have access to. Yes you need to burn the mobs down asap, but if you get your face eaten in the process it's counterproductive. Most players tend to put the blame for said face-nom entirely on the tank, but as someone that runs PLD often with a pair of BLM of comparable item level to myself, a raging strikes double flare has a very good possibility of ripping hate off me if quelling strikes isn't also used. Why would you NOT use it? It doesn't hurt your DPS in any way.

The way I see it, the onus for completing a dungeon or trial isn't just on one player. Everyone should be doing everything in their power to make sure the content is completed quickly and efficiently. Here's another example - Shiva EX. The tank is responsible for positioning Shiva so she is facing away from the party for bow phase. Sometimes though, things happen (especially in single tank runs) and she ends up facing an odd angle. Do you a) move the hell out of the way or b) sit there and eat Glass Dance then cry that the tank got you killed?

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Originally Posted by chidarake

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My comment was reaching and so was yours which was the point. DPS go sometimes go Schizo and Healers sometimes medica, you can't make anything idiot proof because they always build a better idiot. Switching targets isn't even relative to this thread of QS.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I'm not sure how else you'd maintain aggro on 20 mobs at a time as a paladin while you have DPS aoe'ing them down. Cycling through them and hitting a grand total of one of them each GCD would be even less effective.

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Tell me in what instance do you have 20 mobs?

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Here's another example - Shiva EX. The tank is responsible for positioning Shiva so she is facing away from the party for bow phase. Sometimes though, things happen (especially in single tank runs) and she ends up facing an odd angle. Do you a) move the hell out of the way or b) sit there and eat Glass Dance then cry that the tank got you killed?

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Haven't run Shiva EX so don't know the mechanic or what it does. So I can't make a judgement call on that specific example.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Tell me in what instance do you have 20 mobs?

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I probably should have just said 'a bunch of mobs' to avoid exactly this brand of nitpicking. AK, WP, Snowcloak, Brayflox HM, Haukke HM, Tam-Tara HM, CB HM, Halatali HM, and SV HM come to mind as examples of large pulls. Even the first part of Pharos Sirius and DD. Any time you're doing a big pull with the intent of your DPS aoe'ing them down, using Flash is going to be far more productive than cycling through the mobs one by one. While I'm hitting a total of three mobs with my hate combo, the BLMs are already on Fire III > Fire II and probably won't make it to a second Fire II before they get eaten alive. If not Flash, what would you suggest?

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

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Personally I don't like over dramatizing for effect. Flash is only effective for group pulls when weaved in with other abilities. You can easily fast blade one, flash, savage blade another, flash, RoH another, etc.

When people say flash spam I literally picture someone spamming flash which from what I have seen isn't effective. Your definition may vary.

Wow all of these comments and no one seems to understand the fact that "Quelling Strikes" is not always up for every trash pull.
With that said, as a tank you have to do with the mindset that your BLMs will not be using Quelling at all, so what ways are there to hold hate indefinitely or at least enough to the point where you lose aggro on a mob at 3% health.
I'm a PLD main and I have two BLMs in my FC that I usually run expert dungeons with, and they really do burn the shit out of everything. And we're all in full i120s at this point. With weps at i115-i125
Do I often lose aggro? Not often, but here and there, yes.
The trick I find working for me with BLMs is that I can watch when my BLM used Swiftcast or is casting Flare, that helps signify to me that I need to Flash a few times. And this isn't ignoring the fact that I've been rotating my combo on different mobs and flashing in between each combo. With this, you should be way ahead in aggro lead that by the time double/triple flares go off, they'll either overtake you in aggro a bit or come close to doing so. At this point one-two flash will definitely take it back.
If you honestly can't hold aggro at all while allowing your BLMs to go full throttle without quelling then well, switch your accs to STR instead of VIT. Yes, you put more strain on your healer, but what else can you do?

This is a good point. Also to note, most of the time when they get to the double / triple flare stage of rotation, the mobs is really dang close to death, if one happens to peel off, it's fine, it will be dead soon anyway. In this situation as BLM I put up my ward and burn the bastard that came to say hi to me to tha ground. As PLD when this happens, I usually stun it, if it's up, to give the BLM some time to do so.

Quelling is for big pack burns, and bursts on bosses and to be used with raging when possible. Really that's that.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

If a DPS really wants to tank that badly I just let them.

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This is my tanking philosophy. Seems to work well enough.