Why no further Echo on T9?

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Cant' wait :p

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In FCoB if u die u give the boss a stacking damage buff. GL tryna recover from noob mistakes

Oh A T9 Topic!

I can't speak for everyone but I will use my self as an example.
I am a "Mid-Core" players so Statics are a rare thing for me due to work and college. My issue with T9 isn't the fact that the echo boost is only 10% (which is a god send) is the fact that the 1-shot mechanics are preventing many from making it through the fight.
Once again I am speaking for myself, I know the fight up to Heaven's Fall but not everyone can make it to there if they cant make it past the golems.
With the age of Ninja's Melee player tunnel vison is the norm its seems and if people cant place the meteors in a timely fashion and causes a wipe early in the fight it gets frusrtating. Especially if you are the Paladin like me and always get blamed anyway.
Tweaking the One-shots would do a more good than increasing the echo.

T5 is the perfect exemple of echo not fixing stupidity. Increasing echo on T9 will change absolutely nothing at all because most mechanic will one shot you if done incorrectly.

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Originally Posted by JTribal

Is that not what you are asking for? You were complaining about all of the insta-death mechanics in t9. Essentially what you want is to be able to go in and attack the boss until loot chests drop.

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Cute, another person who puts words in other peoples mouths. I said they were annoying. That's all. Please, show me where I asked for anything.

But, thanks for trying to make yourself look special by attempting to talk down to me.

No amount of echo will help people who are bad at T9 clear it. Because Turn 9 is like Turn 5. It's more about mechanics than dps.

T9 is a gate to final coil. If you can't do t9, then you shouldn't be in final coil. Problem now are people buying t9 wins that can't dodge or do mechanics in final coil. If relic is so easy to get, why not go that route?

I personally don't think they should touch the fight mechanics. Rather than I explain, Extra Credits just uploaded a video on the subject of mechanics based systems. They touched on a little bit about raids in particular, so hopefully it's still on-topic, and they may probably give everyone some insight into the developers mindset when designing the fights. :)

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Originally Posted by Marcux

T9 is a gate to final coil. If you can't do t9, then you shouldn't be in final coil. Problem now are people buying t9 wins that can't dodge or do mechanics in final coil. If relic is so easy to get, why not go that route?

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Well, T10 is easier than T9 according to the people I've talked to... So kinda negates what you said. Also, while I do agree in what you mean, but just because you haven't beaten T9, doesn't mean you aren't good enough to do it, just that you haven't found 7 other players that are good enough for it.

You sound like the typical elitist that doesn't even bother reading what I said... I don't have a problem beating the T9 mechanics (not saying I'm a pro either), but there are 7 other players in a group, and all of them have to know what they're doing.

What does the Relic have to do with anything? I'm not just after a better weapon, I want to experience Final Coil, and maybe get some gear there. I would want to beat T9 whether I got the 125 Relic or not, which I don't have, cause I recently switched to BLM, which I only had Zenith on...

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Fair points from others here though, more Echo might not do much indeed... Then some other change would be nice. Not too much of a change though, cause you should have to know what you're doing when beating it.

T5 was stupid, or rather the players were stupid... There are barely any dodging in that fight, other than the divebombs (easy), there really isn't anything else. I don't even consider Twisters dodging, cause you just have to look for the spell, and not stay still... DPS was a problem further back in FFXIV's lifetime too, it's been out for over a year, so of course there are no problems with DPS now.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Well, T10 is easier than T9 according to the people I've talked to... So kinda negates what you said. Also, while I do agree in what you mean, but just because you haven't beaten T9, doesn't mean you aren't good enough to do it, just that you haven't found 7 other players that are good enough for it.

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T6 is also easier than T5, honestly. I can go into a PF and more consistently one shot T6 than T5.

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T5 was stupid, or rather the players were stupid... There are barely any dodging in that fight, other than the divebombs (easy), there really isn't anything else. I don't even consider Twisters dodging, cause you just have to look for the spell, and not stay still... DPS was a problem further back in FFXIV's lifetime too, it's been out for over a year, so of course there are no problems with DPS now.

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You'd be surprised at how many players either don't dodge or cross each other's paths with twisters. Add to that the fact that if one goes off near you, it throws you back into the purple flaming wall of death.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Cute, another person who puts words in other peoples mouths. I said they were annoying. That's all. Please, show me where I asked for anything.

But, thanks for trying to make yourself look special by attempting to talk down to me.

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So you're complaining just to complain? What was your point in posting anything?

Echo is a placebo

Turn 10 is more easily than turn 9 because you had trained to reach FCOB.

Echo infinity won't save you from the one shot mechanics

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Originally Posted by Illya

Echo infinity won't save you from the one shot mechanics

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Technically if you have infinite HP you can't die, there isn't any instant kill skills, only skills that do huge damages and then OS.

T10 is definitely easier for a good group; however, I feel like the last phase will be really hard for pugs after FCoB is unlocked. Similar thing for T11. Too much coordination required; one person out of alignment can easily wipe the group. Trust in everyone is key, and most pugs just don't have that trust

Unlike T8 to T5...T12 is definitely harder than T9, by a longshot. Every single death buffs the boss, the adds can easily wipe an unprepared party, and the whole second and last phases are big coordinated dancing matches.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Technically if you have infinite HP you can't die, there isn't any instant kill skills, only skills that do huge damages and then OS.

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If the mechanic is programmed to straight up kill you regardless of how much HP you have you will still die. Getting blown into the purple buff in the wall is an example of this. Heavensfall is another, if the space junk lands on you, it kills you instantly.

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Originally Posted by JTribal

So you're complaining just to complain? What was your point in posting anything?

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Says the person whose sole reason for posting anything in this thread is to belittle my post.

Honestly, I see no point in you posting in this thread at all, as it's obvious you are only here to start an argument, but I also am not a forum moderator and neither are you.

The OP (if you go back and read) posted inquiring about more (than the current 10%) Echo in T9. Per my comment, I stated that annoying part of the fight was not a lack of Echo or DPS checks, but all the instant death mechanics. You then proceeded to claim that I was asking for easy wins and loot to be handed to me for just attacking a boss. You are now proceeding to tell me I'm just complaining to complain (and making yourself look bad in the process). I will not be responding to you any further, because you are not worth my time. Have a good day.

The primary reason that T5 is still a gate for some folks is because finding a group of people to do it, even on PF/DF, is akin to pulling hen's teeth. And then there's the attitude of some players who get their knickers in a twist if the slightest thing goes wrong, so it makes doing T5 via DF/PF undesirable as well.

Luckily I've got some people to carry me through T5 (it had been awhile since I had last watched a video on it, so I had forgotten boss mechanics: needless to say there was much running around like a headless chicken... or Zoidberg) & taken to doing it to get other FC members in for those delicious bonus Soldiery.

The truth is OP, SE wants to make you feel like you won't progress without a static. This content is made around a playerbase that will group up to beat difficult content. It's frustrating yes, and if you don't like it I suggest either taking a break from coil until T9 is easier, or try to find a group of people you can clear T9 with.

Wiping to phase 1 of a turn that you already know inside out because you're pugging is not something that will go away once you beat T9.

I want to say that T9 isn't really that hard. Granted, I myself really need that P4 practice, as it feels like there's so many colliding mechanics at once (Fire Out, Thunder back/Lunar Dynamo, Fire In, Iron Chariot, bait Super Novas, stack for Thermionic Beam, and I've forgotten everything past this point. I also want to practice it such that I can rely on muscle memory for the mechanics). Essentially T9 itself is 4 different fights, compiled into 1 huge fight.

My main issue isn't the mechanics. My main issue isn't the strength of the Echo. My main issue is the lack of patience of the playerbase.

Too many times now I've gone into DF T9. I've reached Phase 4 a grand total of 2 times over the last 2 weeks of using the DF. And here's the kicker - "yay we got to Phase 4, only took 2 tries! Wait what? Why are we Vote Abandoning?"

Even in PF. 2 tries is all anyone can stomach before I see the all too familiar "Thanks for the party guys". Once someone leaves, everyone else just leaves too, and we're back to square one.

As Coatl says, this entire content is channeled towards getting people to form a static. Well...you don't need a static, you just need a group that's willing to stick together for a couple of hours or three, and work towards getting that content down together. Back in 2.1, I have pugged T5, and cleared it with a PF group too - but it took me 4 hours. I was fortunate enough to find a patient group, I really feel that's all you need to get past it. Everyone has mildly different playstyles, people are used to various strategies, so you'll need time for the makeshift team to gel too.

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Originally Posted by Defteros

T5 with echo is still a too big of a gate to people.

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I'm still stuck on turn 5 after 100+ times lol. No static, just DF..Thats probably the problem.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Cute, another person who puts words in other peoples mouths. I said they were annoying. That's all. Please, show me where I asked for anything.

But, thanks for trying to make yourself look special by attempting to talk down to me.

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Tbh, if you're already winning t9 in a consistent manner, instant death shouldn't be annoying you. The fact that phase 2 golems exist should (what a freaking waste of time).

You should accept that instant death as a necessity in this game. As a tank, I find healers' healing power and speed are overpowered as it is and without instant deaths, they can just heal through everything quickly. Which will lead to another problem: players pushing the boundaries of what mechanics they can or can't ignore and throwing all survival responsibilities on the healers.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

The thing that annoys me the most, is that I've been told that at least Final Coil T1, is very much beatable by a PUG

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Good luck with that! :D

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

Good luck with that! :D

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Well, a PUG that is experienced and has already killed it can definitely do it, the problem with PUG is training most of the time.

Honestly, if you can't dps well enough to pass T9, you have no business being in Final Coil (and therefore have no need to clear T9), and you should probably spend more time focusing on how to improve your dps. The gate on T9 is not dps, it's learning the mechanics and addressing them. If your dps is too low and you fail even while appropriately addressing mechanics, the problem is a lack of ability to play your role effectively. It's disappointing that SE doesn't give you any in-game tools to check your own performance here (would be helpful to know, for example, that going pure Crit with very little Det is a huge mistake for just about any dps job), but hey, what can you do.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Well, T10 is easier than T9 according to the people I've talked to... So kinda negates what you said. Also, while I do agree in what you mean, but just because you haven't beaten T9, doesn't mean you aren't good enough to do it, just that you haven't found 7 other players that are good enough for it.

You sound like the typical elitist that doesn't even bother reading what I said... I don't have a problem beating the T9 mechanics (not saying I'm a pro either), but there are 7 other players in a group, and all of them have to know what they're doing.

What does the Relic have to do with anything? I'm not just after a better weapon, I want to experience Final Coil, and maybe get some gear there. I would want to beat T9 whether I got the 125 Relic or not, which I don't have, cause I recently switched to BLM, which I only had Zenith on...

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Fair points from others here though, more Echo might not do much indeed... Then some other change would be nice. Not too much of a change though, cause you should have to know what you're doing when beating it.

T5 was stupid, or rather the players were stupid... There are barely any dodging in that fight, other than the divebombs (easy), there really isn't anything else. I don't even consider Twisters dodging, cause you just have to look for the spell, and not stay still... DPS was a problem further back in FFXIV's lifetime too, it's been out for over a year, so of course there are no problems with DPS now.

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Turn 10 is more punishing than Turn 9. It's easier mechanic wise but it doesn't allow screw ups and has a tight dps check. Far tighter than anything in Turn 9 requires.

So no, Turn 10 is not easier. There's less to remember and do but everybody has to do it without fail and all dps have to be on their A game. If you can't do 3 meteors in Turn 9 with 4 dps and 10% echo, you don't have what it takes for Turn 10.

First, increasing the echo cap won't really do much for t9 since its like 90% mechanics before it is dps checks, so not being able to clear is probably still due to people not performing mechanics properly. Also T9 is supposed to serve as a barrier of difficulty needed to pass before entering final coil, which has been stated by yoship and the devs is aimed towards the more hardcore players (even though they made progressing alot easier with recent changes at the price of loot)

Why are you all still assuming I have a problem with DPS ? I never said that... I'm doing fine on that department, but it's hard to find party members that do it too.

You have to be good enough to beat T9 to beat T10, yes... But once again, it doesn't matter how good I am, if the rest of the group isn't good enough.

As T9 is a huge gate for players, if I got awarded for doing good in T9 and beat it, I would probably not have as big problems with T10... cause most of those people have been good enough to beat T9 too. Except for the ones who have bought it...

I hate how some of you are clearly looking down on me cause I'm suggesting making it easier... And it's the same in the game, even though I'm doing good, but unless I'm in a static and beating T12/T13 right now, I'm seen as a casual bad player -_-

EDIT: Also, who cares if more players get through the T9 gate? The changes I would want, would still require you to play good, so it's not like bad players would get through... And even if they did, why do people care so much ? Just cause you've come to Final Coil, doesn't mean you should be completely free of bad players, and leave those at T9 so that people like me suffer...

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In “The Second Coil of Bahamut”, the effect of The Echo will be increased. The Echo will be applied upon commencement of duty, and max HP/dealt damage/effect of restorative magic will be increased by 15%.
*Restarting will not increase the effect.

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There you go OP

Don't get your panties in a bunch. Echo for SCoB is now 15%. Most likely there will be another increase at 2.48 to 20%.

Oh and to the person saying you need to be at 3 meteors to beat the T10 enrage... wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tyrn

There you go OP

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Well, lol... :)

Didn't see that coming in a patch like that

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

Don't get your panties in a bunch. Echo for SCoB is now 15%. Most likely there will be another increase at 2.48 to 20%.

Oh and to the person saying you need to be at 3 meteors to beat the T10 enrage... wrong.

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I don't know, my party beat the enrage by only a few seconds with 1 dps only have a HA weapon and the other 3 having soldiery weapons and when we went back to farm nael with the same gear and 10% echo, we were getting 3 meteors. Iiirc our 1st clear (1 week before nael got the echo) we were still getting 4 meteors.

Maybe not need 3 meteors but I'd imagine beating the t10 enrage would be a gamble at that point.

Edit: Whoops, I misremembered. Was getting 4 meteors with 4 soldiery dps while trying to get clears. Cleared it and tried to farm before trying to clear t10 futilely and only 1 dps got their ha weapon (bow) and was only getting 3 meteors half the time. Then cleared t10 with 2 ha dps and 2 soldiery dps before the middle floor gets electrified and we went back to t9 where we start clearing t9 with 3 meteors regularly.

In T9, each new phase is completely different to the last, so its almost like learning 4 fights. T10 keeps the same mechanics in each phase and simply adds to them as you go along, so it should take less time to learn.

But the DPS checks are tighter and its harder to heal (compared to echoed over geared T9 anyway). So everyone has to pull their weight!

The current echo is huge already.

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Originally Posted by Pterois

You have to know the person next to you and what they need to do and if they screw up how you can cover them while they pick themselves back up. In fact you need to know everyones roll and how they will react, and how your entire team moves as one.

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This right here... It's not about raiding on set times, being the best of the best etc... it's all about being willing to learn the fights and the people you are with on how they will react to things. Once you have that fights become much easier. It's about the team and how people fit together and not who does better than the rest.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

Don't get your panties in a bunch. Echo for SCoB is now 15%. Most likely there will be another increase at 2.48 to 20%.

Oh and to the person saying you need to be at 3 meteors to beat the T10 enrage... wrong.

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The dps required for 3 meteors is around 2000. But it's harder to hit that mark in T9 due to the downtime between jumps, but there was a 10% echo to help with that.

the dps required to beat Turn 10 without hitting the soft enrage is a little over 2000.

You are the one who's wrong.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Well, yeah. Otherwise they would have increased it, but I...

but I don't like how all these "last turn gates" are more about playing with the same people all the time, and your level of communication, than actually being good at your job/dodging mechanics.

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I'm fairly certain most people can play their preferred jobs to near perfection and still wipe with a group due to no communication. The healers may not know the times tanks need extra attention (ie:Cooldown reset), DPS may not be familiar with the way other players move and run each other into death, hell, even tanks can mess up if they get too lax with aggro and have an add taken by someone who they would swear was targeting another (see: DPS). Communication is the best way to resolve all of these issues after every wipe, but on DF no one ever talks (with very, very few exceptions) which is why statics are common and almost required to clear your ""last turn gates"

Please don't change it, as a casual/mid core who is finalllllly getting into coil I'm excited for the impending wipes once we finish off twintania and make our way to second. I115 may be easier to get but I want ha just cuz of principle, it's been the top tier for so long it'd feel cheap to get it without a real challenge

I have a saying regarding most fights in this game. You don't clear a fight in this game based on your best player - you clear a fight based on your worst player. One critical mistake is often all it takes to nullify the effort of the other 7 players, in basically every fight assuming you're not overgearing it. Even comparably easy turns like 6 and 10 (6 before it was nerfed even further) could turn into something unrecoverable if one person doesn't know what's going on.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

My main issue is the lack of patience of the playerbase.

Too many times now I've gone into DF T9. I've reached Phase 4 a grand total of 2 times over the last 2 weeks of using the DF. And here's the kicker - "yay we got to Phase 4, only took 2 tries! Wait what? Why are we Vote Abandoning?"

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As Coatl says, this entire content is channeled towards getting people to form a static. Well...you don't need a static, you just need a group that's willing to stick together for a couple of hours or three, and work towards getting that content down together. Back in 2.1, I have pugged T5, and cleared it with a PF group too - but it took me 4 hours. I was fortunate enough to find a patient group, I really feel that's all you need to get past it. Everyone has mildly different playstyles, people are used to various strategies, so you'll need time for the makeshift team to gel too.

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Nailed it. If the players you have found are good, but impatient then you aren't going to get a clear. With PF's its a bit easier to get around that, but I think that's a big reason why a DF is highly improbable. You can watch all the videos in the world, but without any practice you aren't going to clear t9. And when you are progressing, learning the final phase of t9 takes a long time because people get burnt out doing the first 7-8 minutes of the fight flawlessly, but then (for instance) missing the DPS needed to push Nael to final phase and having a Drake pop right before she goes into Favor. That destroys morale and makes progression seem like it's never going to happen with a pick-up.

SE put these turns in DF to make it more accessible, but it isn't. I really think SE should implement a system (just for DF coil turns) where the group can vote to extend the time. You are not going to learn t9 in 90 minutes. The group needs cohesion and a bit of time to learn each other's tendencies. When the duty boots you shortly after you are able to reach that level of symmetry, it is going to deter any person who is truly serious about completion away from ever trying for it in DF.

If you find 7 other people in the DF who understand mechanics up to a certain point, or are quick learners and you seem to be progressing, you should just be able to say:

/p Hey guys, we seem to be progressing well, but the time is at 10mins. Do y'all want to {Vote Extend} to refresh the timer and continue working on this? I think we can do it!!

I bet a lot more people with the patience you search for would attempt the fight via DF more often.