What? Read my post again. That was an example. I never stated that anything was to be made free. I was questioning what could be considered pay-to-win.Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAudax
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
-
12-15-2014, 09:02 PMAdamFyi
-
12-15-2014, 09:08 PMAtomnium
Is it just me or did all the NyarukoW offensive replies in this thread got totally deleted?
So... It mean one additional thing!!!!!!!
If it's the case, I don't know who you are kind Moderator but I wish you a very merry Christmas and an incredible happy new year to you (and it is coming from the bottom of my heart, thanks <3).
Back on the thread, OP you should not confuse yourself and mix things, no offence, being able to sell and trade the wedding rings formula for gils was an obvious mistake in the cash-shop, blaming the mercenary community to be the "original bad seedling" of the problem is a false and dangerous theory.
Also,
^ This is probably one of my favourite quote in this forum, if the game was more harsh in the "learning process" for new players, we wouldn't have such huge mercenary community in game :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
-
12-15-2014, 09:13 PMHeroSamsonits true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomnium
Mercenary's exist in every single MMO game.
Also if people helped for free its still the same thing with or without Gil payment. -
12-15-2014, 09:49 PMSapphicI said WoW Vanilla, and no, never saw content sellers during that time whatsoever, what came after, can't say, wasn't playing so my statement is still true for that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
Exactly, not designed for bad players to pay others to carry them through it, glad we agree there. Now put it into practice :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
-
12-15-2014, 10:28 PMsilentwindfr
the trouble is not the fact that fight are too hard or stuff like this, more than if you can't gather a group of people that are ready to dedicate themself to that only, you will never do it, even if you have the skill and knowledge... why this? because most of the group that are doing T10-13 or even T6-9, don't want to do the previous one. leading to the fact that new player (that can have the capacity to do more) are stuck to some point and lead them to either pay to win mercenary or simply drop of the game and search another place where they can find challenge and play with people.
i will be blunt it's too part fault of how the content was designed, the full scripted and OS mechanic is nice but over used it lead to group that will refuse to have one error made by member of the group or kick... the famous fail = kick and stuff like this. it did developpe extremely toxic community.
then part is fault of the community and part fault of the content and the form it have.
another point interesting, why this situation never really happend in WoW or other game before, mostly because they never asked to finish the previous raid, if someone join at the 2.4 he will need to complet T5 and T9 for be able to do the new content... that a major flaws in the design. -
12-15-2014, 10:44 PMRazzle
Lol it's pretty funny that people believe anything that's being said. I'm willing to bet $E knew from the start that it was going to be sold by players for in game money. In fact I'm pretty sure they will take their time with "fixing" this.
The moment the popular time of this feature has passed, is the moment they will suddenly find the "fix" for it. lol
And blaming the players for it is a joke.
Bare in mind that anything $E says probably goes through a process of some sort of the marketing team. At least that's how the company I work at works. I can't just come up with an answer and publish it to customers without analyzing the consequences. So might as well change a few words here and there, to make customers hear what they want to hear ( ' x ' -
12-15-2014, 11:00 PMKorilynnThe mentality of make things harder and require an awesome static didn't work to well for Wildstar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Yes, there is a playerbase for that, it's just not that big. -
12-15-2014, 11:04 PMFateAudaxI'm sincerely sorry if I misinterpreted your post, but believe me when I tell you it's hard to differentiate real question and fact twisting questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
-
12-15-2014, 11:47 PMNalienThat's only half the solution. The main issue is the way mechanics are just suddenly dropped on you. They did an OK job with Primals, since the story mode ones introduce the mechanics while the hard/extreme ones just ramp up the difficulty and perhaps add a couple new mechanics, but Crystal Tower and Coil?Quote:
Originally Posted by Korilynn
Guildhests would have been a great way to teach players mechanics, but they were completely optional and only really worth doing the once. They'd have been a great educational tool if SE actually made them relevant, instead most teach you nothing (or instead tell you to do something stupid like focus on adds when the boss goes down in seconds) and all endgame mechanics end up being taught to new players by old players, which a lot of people just don't have the patience for.
By far the main issue is that the game expects nothing of you until Coil. The fact that all content is simplistic and thus easy to carry people through doesn't help. The game should have steadily taught players how to handle basic mechanics as you level, instead it basically teaches you nothing 1-50 and then ramps up the difficulty for endgame. You go from simply dodging things and killing adds, to mechanics like Allagan Rot which get completely ignored because not a damn thing in the game prepared players for it. A Guildhest could so easily have introduced a mechanic similar to Allagan Rot, make it a requirement (or at least worth doing frequently) and people wouldn't have gotten to Turn 2 and failed time after time to a completely alien mechanic. Christ, Silencing High Voltage was a completely new mechanic to 99% of the games population in 2.0, it was pathetic...
This games biggest failing is the dichotomy of its difficulty. You either have super casual content where you can almost ignore mechanics and still power through, or you have instant KO mechanics. It simply isn't a good system, it means your casual players can have almost no idea what they're doing, while your hardcores have it completely sorted. Don't treat casuals like children and gradually expect more from them as they level (almost all "difficult" leveling content currently can be ignored for FATEs), then when they get to endgame they might actually have a clue what is going on and be able to adapt, or have others explain things simply ("It's like X" rather than having to explain the entire thing like you currently have to). For the most part mechanics aren't even hard in this game, it's just an utter lack of practice, due to an utter lack of any content requiring practice before Coil. Silencing High Voltage is in no way hard, but when people are getting to Coil for the first time and have not once had to Silence anything, let alone coordinate with another player, that is an issue. -
12-16-2014, 01:13 AMTeryaaniLet's put this to rest (Ha! if only). You want vanity to be play to win, it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
That is play to win, straight from the producer's own mouth (gamerevolution interview). Mounts and minions and glamours aren't giving you better stats.Quote:
"I would consider in terms of items, optional things that would change the aesthetics like your skin color or your race but not your stats. If it’s like the Ring of Yoshida, it’s cool but it can cross the line and help you clear end game content and help you beat certain monsters. That has the risk of people calling the game pay-to-win. That’s not something I want to do." - Naoki Yoshida
So stop with this "well it's my objective so that's pay to win". Your objective may be important, but it's not the objective the game designers count as "winning". The Shiva weapon gives improved stats for some. No cash shop for that. A minion or mount doesn't. -
12-16-2014, 03:47 AMBishop81I'm sorry. But you don't really get to decide what is and isn't winning nor do the designers of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teryaani
Remember the players are the ones paying and the only reason they pay is because,
If part of a game that the player is interested in becomes "unfair" ... well, you won't keep that player for long.Quote:
The most important concept in this paper is that it's not just how you sell your product, but what part of your product you sell. A great part of the attraction of virtual worlds is that participants see them as a Grand Meritocracy, as opposed to the real world, which can often seem arbitrary and unfair. As Jane McGonigal points out, there is no unemployment in virtual space. Everyone has opportunities. Absolute care must be taken in the design of your virtual world to maintain this perception -- whether you consider it real or illusion is irrelevant.
Selling the game objectives in your world makes your game unfair and just reminds your customers of the inequities of the world they are trying to escape from. They literally won't buy this. Sell them opportunity, in the form of content, and they will buy up that opportunity with an enthusiasm that will shock you.
- http://gamasutra.com/view/feature/17...on_.php?page=4
At this rate, all FFXIV will end up keeping are hardcore raiders who only care about,
who ironically are not that hard up for vanity items that the cash shop is selling. The cash shop is to some extend a self-extinguishing venture as it drives away players that are most interested in the goods it's selling, in the long run.Quote:
help you clear end game content and help you beat certain monsters
FFXIV has a wide range of activities and attracts a wide variety of players with different goals and interest. If Yoshida wants to destroy this diversity and be "purely" a raiding game very much like it's main competitor WoW (seriously, there is nothing else to WoW, it's "raid or die" if you don't like PVP), for the sake of short-term gain ... well, this is disappointing - not to mention competitively disadvantageous in the long run; I don't see how going head to head with WoW, fighting on its terms, is a good idea. -
12-16-2014, 04:25 AMErudainYou sir, wins the interwebz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Only thing I would like to add to what you said, is the ammount of wipe mechanics the game has is ridiculous.
It usually punishs everyone for one person mistake, and in the other end it doesn't reward exceptional playskill since you cannot make up for the one who screwed it up.
Someone screws up = wipe.
That also leads to the elitist attitude of not wanting to help.
If you have hard mechanics, but not automatic wipes....you could enable 3, 4, 5 guys to lead a group to victory through amazing playskill even if 2, 3, 4 other guys screwed up and are kissing the floor, those guys would feel great about themselves "look what we just did, awesome!"...and experienced players would be more willing to help.
(note the "amazing" part of the sentence = not a cake walk that "everyone" can clear with 4-5 guys only") -
12-16-2014, 05:22 AMBishop81Well, it will certainly increase the number of players willing to help, but the elitist attitude probably isn't going anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erudain
There will still be prima donnas throwing hissy fits about how "noobs" and "bads" are slowing down the raid, when things don't go exactly as they planned.
The only way to fix this is to ensure players only play with "their own kind. ". -
12-16-2014, 05:52 AMXysticWe sold countless runs in WoW Vanilla. MC, BWL and ONY40 could be done with 25 players in T2 and 15 customers in any assorted fashion of gear. The margin of error in 40 man raids back in those days were rather large. In AQ40 we could easily carry about 8 players with 32 players in T2-T2.5 with some difficulties at the twin emps and cthun but otherwise most of AQ40 was fairly simple. Naxx was probably the hardest to carry and we only brought 1-2 customers, with very high price tags on those items they wanted. Some other top tier guilds could definitely bring more but ours capped it at 1-2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphic
The origination of selling runs in WoW started in Vanilla and persists today, however, a lot of runs these days are the bid-split gold runs versus a guild selling items to you. -
12-16-2014, 07:50 AMTeryaaniLet's be clear here. I'm not deciding anything. That was the producer of the game, the face of the product, explaining how he (and therefore his development team) saw winning. I didn't decide anything, but to make arguing with me easier you'd like that I did, sorry to disappoint you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
The people we're talking about here are the ones who designed how the game reward systems worked. The winning.
You would prefer that the vanity items be treated on par with the game items? Fine, a number of people would. But that's not how this game was built. Interestingly enough, the amount of vanity that square adds vs what goes into the vanity shop makes this entire thing look like a molehill that you're seeing as Everest.
You like citing that article on gaming theory, and it's got some nice platitudes in it, but platitudes don't necessarily translate into bottom line figures.Quote:
Remember the players are the ones paying and the only reason they pay is because,
<theorycraft article snipped>
If part of a game that the player is interested in becomes "unfair" ... well, you won't keep that player for long.
The consumer has shown willingness to support a cash store and until they stop doing it, they aren't going to change anything. The problem is that the data SE is getting is almost definitely running contrary to your point above. How do I know this? because they're still doing the cash shop. If it was costing them on the bottom line, they would drop or change support for it.
So high minded as that may be, the consumer is reacting differently. The writer is an economist, the one thing I learned from economics is that people behave in a fashion that meets their rational self interest. What I learned from real life is that everything I was taught in economics about rational self interest was wrong.
Time will show best if it's self extinquishing, as you put it. I think you're overestimating consumer dislike of the cash shop.Quote:
At this rate, all FFXIV will end up keeping are hardcore raiders who only care about,
who ironically are not that hard up for vanity items that the cash shop is selling. The cash shop is to some extend a self-extinguishing venture as it drives away players that are most interested in the goods it's selling, in the long run.
Yoshida isn't destroying anything. The content coming out seems pretty evenly balanced to me, including a ton of vanity. Also, going to head to head with WoW? This game has it's own built in market, just like WoW did (Warcraft players). This isn't some winner take all deathmatch. People play both, even having subscriptions for each at the same time.Quote:
FFXIV has a wide range of activities and attracts a wide variety of players with different goals and interest. If Yoshida wants to destroy this diversity and be "purely" a raiding game very much like it's main competitor WoW (seriously, there is nothing else to WoW, it's "raid or die" if you don't like PVP), for the sake of short-term gain ... well, this is disappointing - not to mention competitively disadvantageous in the long run; I don't see how going head to head with WoW, fighting on its terms, is a good idea.
-
12-16-2014, 09:40 AMNoF2PIt could cost in lost subs - which is irreversible - but if that starts to hurt then the game could go F2P and get a huge number of new players, among which would be many customers of the shop. An online shop costs very little to operate, and the existing game gives the items value. Such an influx of new players might need more servers, hence the "double dipping". It could be that the whole cash shop thing is just hedging against a steady decline in subs as players reach the endgame and leave faster than new players join.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teryaani
I agree with what you said about rational self interest. There's a lot of theory in economics that is inconsistent with reality. -
12-16-2014, 09:42 AMLeep
Can you even win an MMO? I consider it a an MMO beat when I settle down with a nice classy MMO lady after exploring her <Labyrinth of the Ancients>. You lose if you have to pay to win in this circumstance though. :(
-
12-16-2014, 10:58 AMBishop81Pardon the "pro-active" protest. Some of us don't want the game to start it's decline - it just launch last year for heaven sakes. ><Quote:
Originally Posted by Teryaani
As NoF2P mentioned, the damage could be irreversible.
Player trust isn't something that you can rebuild, throw away, then rebuild again, ad infinitum.
High minded or not, one thing is certain (base on observation) the moment part of the game goes into the cash shop, that part of the game ceases to be a "game" in the traditional sense. Whatever ends up in a cash shop becomes part of a "money game", and as noted by the article I linked, money games are self-extinguishing over time - as, for many, players soon learn the only "real way to win", is to not play.
I think you might be overestimating just how much time and money players have at their disposal ...Quote:
Yoshida isn't destroying anything. The content coming out seems pretty evenly balanced to me, including a ton of vanity. Also, going to head to head with WoW? This game has it's own built in market, just like WoW did (Warcraft players). This isn't some winner take all deathmatch. People play both, even having subscriptions for each at the same time.
PS: This discussion has been enlightening. I learned a few things. One being that a game can't just be blanket labelled as P2W or not P2W, rather you must consider it's components. A game can be non-P2W in one area, but P2W in another. So while the whole game will not collapse, the part that ends up in the cash shop will sooner or later both figuratively and literally die, and subs (and player trust) will nevertheless be lost.