The Ninja Superthread

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Originally Posted by Best-MNK-NA

Numbers seem very high for your gear, but perhaps it's due to this. Please don't spam Assassinate, it completely skews the results in a terrible way. Shouldn't even use it at all when testing a rotation.

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Yes, numbers from my old opener were inflated by Assassinate, what I just posted wasn't, yet they're the same values. That's the point I'm trying to make.




ButcherBoy, I've added your rotation to the OP. Thank you!

i just use huton on pull for groups where getting a pull timed with huton is unrealistic lol

i feel like if you do suiton on pull you should just open with se>bfb>sf>mutilate anyway. dots first is stronger, especially in raid setting where warrior will probably get eye up before you can do 4 gcds. the 15s wait huton pull mainly uses de first just to weave in buffs/x-pots.

We also assumed opening up with DoTs is much stronger back when we were theorycrafting the difference HP IDC TTT vs H IDC P TTT vs HPF IDC TTT in the Dragoon thread last year. The reality of it is, not having the initial hit of Mutilate being affected by DE actually decreases your PPS. It's not noticable in-game as it's only a 60 potency skill, but it's clearly there when you do the math.

ButcherBoy, I've added your rotation to the OP. Thank you![/QUOTE]


Thank you very much for this truehavik, but the person that deserves the name to be put up is Zamii. His te one that posted that rotation in te Ninja opening/rotation thred page 6. Thank u and I apologize.

something randomly interesting

ta with suiton @ 1s lets you get a TA buffed fuma shuriken out with 0.5-1s left on TA duration

still about 24 potency less, but virtually 0 gcd clipping in comparison

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Originally Posted by Dervy

We also assumed ...

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Could the same for SF be said If DE is also not applied first. SF is a huge dps loss if you let it fall too long off or clip it too early.

unless you are reapplying it with 5 seconds or less when TA effect is up. 15 seconds or less for mutilate in that same situation with TA.

at least that is what was told to me yesterday and my number on a dummy ( even though I don't particularly like dummy parsed) did go up by 11-15 dps in 2 different tests from 455 the day before that.

During those I prioritized Shadow fang > Mutilate > Dancing Edge. Kept up all 3 as best I could though. It's just that if two were going to fall off in a similar time frame, that's the priority I went with.

The same can be exactly said about SF. In fact, an SF without DE applied is an even greater PPS loss as it used every 20s for a potency of 240. That's an approx 1.3 PPS loss if it isn't buffed with DE. You might of seen a DPS increase as the SF combo is stronger than DE combo and using it first does result in an increased DPS, but it isn't optimised.

I've also noticed a pattern with my SIM. The NIN's GDC layout is scarily similar to that of a Dragoon... The priority can actually loop - though the loop is much longer then that of the Dragoon.

SGD: Dancing Edge Combo
SF: Shadow Fang Combo
SGA: Aeolian Edge Combo:
MU: Mutiliate

SGD SF MU SGA
SGD SF SGA
SGD MU SF SGA
SGD SF SGA MU
SGD SF SGA

I'd like someone to try it if possible and see what you think of it. This was taking into consideration a SkillSpeed of 438 on your gear, and Huton with 100% uptime.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

SGD SF MU SGA
SGD SF SGA
SGD MU SF SGA
SGD SF SGA MU
SGD SF SGA

I'd like someone to try it if possible and see what you think of it. This was taking into consideration a SkillSpeed of 438 on your gear, and Huton with 100% uptime.

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I'm on it. This is without buffs, mutilate or ninjutsu?

EDIT: I'm going to assume you meant to put mutilate in place of Mug :P

All I can really say is that it lines up nicely. Without factoring in jutsu, buffs and other oGCDs, I can't tell how well it'll do.

EDIT2: Tossed oGCDs and the normal jutsu roatation in and got 492 - This is with me accidently repeating the 3rd line and dropping Huton for a good 5 seconds so I'm sure it can do much better.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

I'm on it. This is without buffs, mutilate or ninjutsu?

EDIT: I'm going to assume you meant to put mutilate in place of Mug :P

All I can really say is that it lines up nicely. Without factoring in jutsu, buffs and other oGCDs, I can't tell how well it'll do.

EDIT2: Tossed oGCDs and the normal jutsu roatation in and got 492 - This is with me accidently repeating the 3rd line and dropping Huton for a good 5 seconds so I'm sure it can do much better.

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We would have to throw in jutsus right? Only real way to see how well it loops with everything?

Edit: Dervy

What you posted can actually be simplified as..
DE > SF > Mutilate > AE

Then you just follow DE> SF> AE and apply mutilate as it drops. Does that line up with the sim?

Yup. Throw them in whatever order you're most comfortable with. The point is I want to stress both the rotation and see if the sims results is similar to the feedback from you guys.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

We would have to throw in jutsus right? Only real way to see how well it loops with everything?

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Yeah.

So this is how I opened -

SE > BfB > Mug > GS > IR > DE > SF > M > SE > GS > AE > Jugulate
SE > Suiton > GS > TA > DE > Kass > SF > Raiton > SE > AE

once all that was said and done, it was just pop buffs/oGCDs on CD and cycle through jutsu while keeping everything up.

Scored me 499 and I'm sure there's more optimal places to slot everything.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

What you posted can actually be simplified as..
DE > SF > Mutilate > AE

Then you just follow DE> SF> AE and apply mutilate as it drops. Does that line up with the sim?

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Essentially, yeah.

The reason why I listed it like that was because Mutilates DoTs drops off at different intervals each time you use it and so you could see clearly when it's best to use it without clipping dots or losing out on DoT ticks.

So then is 438 the your recommended skill speed for keeping dots from falling off too long or having to clip due to too much ss?

No, that's just what I was using in the sim. Increased skillspeed will increase your PPS regardless.

As far as SkSp is concerned, mine caused no problems with this rotation and I can actually see that with more it would be smoother. (again, I'm at 476)

Well with this I can see the similarity between nin and drg rotation wise. I thought it would be more like mnk actually. Using this actually helps simplify things a bit.

My only issue is that mudras sometimes eat into my gcd causing me to drop SF or mutilate longer than I want to. Especially if I just su > gcd > Kassatsu > gcd > jutsu.

Edit: to ease my mind I guess I'm asking, when pitted against one another which takes priority. Dots in the melee rotation or raiton. I figure if TA is available you'll want to use that to buff your dots by 10%. Huton is a given, at least to me that it comes first when put up against anything in ninja's two rotations.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

My only issue is that mudras sometimes eat into my gcd causing me to drop SF or mutilate longer than I want to. Especially if I just su > gcd > Kassatsu > gcd > jutsu.

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I noticed this too. Though, as long as it's not down for too long it shouldn't make a huge difference. The way DoTs work in this game is that they tick every 3 seconds so it one falls off for 1-2s, you're likely not missing anything.

Is there anyway at the end of the guide you can add in an abbreviation meaning list (ex. se). I'm just new to leveling rogue and I'm trying to compare what the abbreviations mean with a skill list, but some I'm not sure they are right or can't find them. Would be helpful. Thank you.

So.......

How OP are Ninjas anyway? I haven't rolled one yet, but simply looking at the Potencies of the attacks everyone was really expecting them to be this game's WotLK Death Knights (aka the end all, be all kings of melee dps).

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Originally Posted by AspectOfWinter

So.......

How OP are Ninjas anyway? I haven't rolled one yet, but simply looking at the Potencies of the attacks everyone was really expecting them to be this game's WotLK Death Knights (aka the end all, be all kings of melee dps).

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Nin isn't op at all, mnks are still top dps (aingle target) while nin and drg fall slightly behind.

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Originally Posted by AspectOfWinter

So.......

How OP are Ninjas anyway? I haven't rolled one yet, but simply looking at the Potencies of the attacks everyone was really expecting them to be this game's WotLK Death Knights (aka the end all, be all kings of melee dps).

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They're probably the weakest melee class currently.

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Originally Posted by Aiyza

Is there anyway at the end of the guide you can add in an abbreviation meaning list (ex. se). I'm just new to leveling rogue and I'm trying to compare what the abbreviations mean with a skill list, but some I'm not sure they are right or can't find them. Would be helpful. Thank you.

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Added as well as a more detailed legend. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Best-MNK-NA

They're probably the weakest melee class currently.

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Well, ninja's got nerfed by less than 2% dps according the the math floating around, and dervy's vid broke down the percentage in which drgs got buffed. Roughly 6%, I don't know where that puts them in relation to nin and mnk exactly but if nin is the weakest melee class it is by much.. at all.

here is dervy's breakdown. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wy3VGsv-3gM
Would be cool to see one for ninja on this level of explanation.

MNK > DRG = NIN is how it should be.

Anyone else finding it hard to keep your dots up 100% of the time and squeezing in enough AE? Due to jutsu timing I am noticing, at times, my dots/slashing debuff may fall off for 2-3 seconds.

Almost have to resign myself to accepting it and just stick to Dervy's rotation as best as possible.

Correct me if I'm wrong but from my experience u have 2 option when it comes to dealing with ninja dots/debuff. Either clips dots by 2-3 seconds or finish a rotation and not have dots for 4-5 seconds

All melee have this same problem. There's good and bad clipping and it all depends on how long it takes to get up/action animation length, where it fits into the rotation and what buffs you have up. For instance, on DRG, I have to start IDC when Chaos Thrust DoT hits 9-10 seconds remaining or it WILL fall off. Same with MNK and Demo, I need to start a chain with that skill in mind at around 7-8 seconds or use it at the end of my Snap Punch chain at 4 seconds remaining due to the long animation.

Same thing applies here. "Do I use AE now, or should I clip DE so I'm free to fire a buffed TA, AE, M and SF?"

At the same time, it can be bad to, say, clip Mutilate at 5 seconds, fearing that it would fall off. This is because you should be able to make it through a full AE or DE chain with enough time to only have it fall off for 1-2 seconds. Doing it this way is likely a DPS increase, esp. if it's DE you're putting up.

No one is going to be flawless in their rotation 100% of the time and the more mistakes you make, the more you learn (hopefully) the finer points of your job(s). That's also why it's so important to know how the game deals with things like DoTs, Skill Speed and animations, because if you have that knowledge, it makes it possible to develop these little tricks and tips to max your potential.

Would anyone have any tips on how to utilize Shukuchi better on a PS4 controller? I find it very clunky and trying to use it quickly in a tight bind is almost impossible on a PS4 controller.

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Originally Posted by Solid_Soul

Would anyone have any tips on how to utilize Shukuchi better on a PS4 controller? I find it very clunky and trying to use it quickly in a tight bind is almost impossible on a PS4 controller.

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Amen to that Brotha! Shukuchi is definately designed for the kb/mouse players.

What i did was put it on the 2nd Crossbar (R2 + Square) slot. Then i set up my crossbar + combo (When you press R2 and L2 at the same time to display rear bar) to only display the Right Side of the 2nd Crossbar.

Effectively i Shukuchi using: L2 + R2 + Square. The tricky part is then positioning the target using the right joystick (clunky as hell) and then pressing X to execute. Thats alotta buttons to fit in between a GCD.

Still looking for an easier way in terms of placement but meh. As controller players i dont think its gonna get any better than this.

I've adjusted to the (OG) position of the dot in the middle of our screen that determines placement of ground target abilities.

Most of the time when you Shukuchi you already have an idea of where you are going; so simply set your camera's position in the direction you are about to go before you make the decision to teleport.

You can practice doing ground targeted abilities on controller by either messing around w/ SMN/SCH's Shadow Flare (No cd).

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Nin isn't op at all, mnks are still top dps (aingle target) while nin and drg fall slightly behind.

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Originally Posted by Best-MNK-NA

They're probably the weakest melee class currently.

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Interesting, I wonder if the Ninjustsu button presses have anything to do with this? Because going by the original potencies of the attacks I wouldn't have been surprised if Ninja DPS had been higher than DRG and MNK by as much as 20%.

In Warlords of Draenor right now, Marksman Hunter is above Beast Mastery by about that much, by the way. Maybe Square Enix is far better than Blizzard at balancing classes?

the real question really is if getting skill speed to have dots/de always line up perfectly is worth it compared to pretty much being guaranteed to drop DE on reapplication/DoTs for 1 tick every now and then. at 390 with average mudra speeds you'll probably end up dropping de/dots for a tick sometimes, at 455~ it's pretty lenient, 495~ it's easy

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Originally Posted by Houston009

I've adjusted to the (OG) position of the dot in the middle of our screen that determines placement of ground target abilities.

Most of the time when you Shukuchi you already have an idea of where you are going; so simply set your camera's position in the direction you are about to go before you make the decision to teleport.

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This. Also, don't try to pinpoint an exact position of where you want to teleport; just get the cursor in the ballpark.

How much dps for a i110 nin with vajras weapon should i be aiming for roughly?

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Originally Posted by FyrmurlFloerasksyn

How much dps for a i110 nin with vajras weapon should i be aiming for roughly?

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Somewhere in the 455-465 range is good for that ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

the real question really is if getting skill speed to have dots/de always line up perfectly is worth it compared to pretty much being guaranteed to drop DE on reapplication/DoTs for 1 tick every now and then. at 390 with average mudra speeds you'll probably end up dropping de/dots for a tick sometimes, at 455~ it's pretty lenient, 495~ it's easy

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Hell, even with 476 I drop DE on occasion. Though, by that time I'm working on getting it back up so the only thing the debuff is missing is at most a Gust Slash and DE itself. DoTs though, not so much.

Nice thread, keep up the good work.

Well, some more info for Shuriken, as already stated its considered as Physical Damage, and is affected by both Venoms, but also by Dancing Edge.
Still, while my Raiton does 600, Shuriken only reaches up to 500, but a lot faster regardless.

Very recommended that if you are having lag issues focus on using Shuriken instead of Raiton unless Kassatsu or not in melee range.

if you're keen on using shuriken instead of raiton, look into altering your suiton+ta timing. if you TA at 0.5s-1s left on suiton, your next ninjutsu (shuriken) will benefit from TA, making the potency difference a bit smaller

These are the projected NIN weights. Not final, but pretty close to what they will be. Any further changes will be in the thousandth decimal place.

WD: 9.132
DEX: 1
DET: 0.325
CRT: 0.226
SS: 0.215