I think it's too early to tell. But if they keep adding shit to the cash shop people will get sick of it and leave. Then people will leave because their friends are leaving -> snowball effectQuote:
Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang
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12-01-2014, 02:10 AMhallena
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12-01-2014, 02:10 AMKatsaria
I've been looking forward to a new triple triad outside of VIII for a long time. I honestly have no faith Square-Enix will not mess something up in this version. It'll either be brain dead easy, uncomplex in terms of card collection, or have micro-transactions involved.
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12-01-2014, 02:10 AMDatuWell said!Quote:
Originally Posted by hallena
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12-01-2014, 02:15 AMFelis
if they do it like in FF 8 and FF 9 there would be no cards from the cash shop. The rarer cards would be then primal drops and coil drops.
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12-01-2014, 02:20 AMTupsiThey already stated there's a mobile app that will be released in conjunction with the Golden Saucer/TT introduction - which is where people get the idea it may be microtransaction. As said, XI had a "cash shop" for the TM cards when people actually played TM, so there will likely be a similar system - The only question..will it be real money or gil? If its in-game drops..that's a whole nother can of worms lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
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12-01-2014, 02:35 AMBraveheartRamo
Let hope there is no cash shop for the upcoming Golden Saucer. If SE want to introduce cash shop, better have it on items that has nothing to go with gaming experience, maybe use goodies and stuff, minions and mounts is half ok, but not on enhanced gaming experiences even if it's just a mini game.
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12-01-2014, 02:39 AMFelis
Also Golden Saucer is about playing mini-games and winning prizes.
Putting a cash shop there that give you the prizes without playing the mini-games would be a bad idea. -
12-01-2014, 02:52 AMTupsiUnless it's a direct copy of VII's (and why wouldn't it be at the rate they direct copy out of other FF worlds and claim it's unique to Eorzea?) You'd likely be able to purchase GP or something IF it had a cash shop >.>. Specially since they said it won't really have anything that goes towards your game progression so it'd be like buying vanity stuff all over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
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12-01-2014, 03:02 AMLyrinn
I don't see anything inherently wrong with selling booster packs via cash shop so long as none of the cards are cash shop exclusives that are blatantly better than what you can obtain in-game. The moment they do that is the moment they step over the line into P2W zone, optional mini-game or not.
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12-01-2014, 03:05 AMKatsariaBuying cards is essentially pay to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyrinn
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12-01-2014, 03:06 AMDatuI disagree. That's a slippery slope, regardless of whether said card is available in game or not. It's how it all starts. I say if they go the cash shop route with the cards, they should have let the card game be a separate game altogether. Not something you can play in the game world. But that's probably too late now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyrinn
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12-01-2014, 03:06 AMLyrinnIt's pay for convenience, which is a gray area. You'll get a head start on everyone else who has to obtain cards in-game but that's only temporary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsaria
So you're telling me if they add a cash shop exclusive card with, say, A's on all sides when the best you can get in-game would be 8's, that wouldn't be P2W? Extreme example, sure, but the key here is balance. If I can't beat a cash shop user without using cash shop myself, that's the very definition of P2W. If there are exclusive cards like a super rare mail moogle with 5's on all sides, I doubt anyone would care except to look pretty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Datu
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12-01-2014, 03:07 AMTupsiWhat are you winning? Is Triple Triad going to clear Final Coil for you? World of Darkness/Eureka?Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsaria
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12-01-2014, 03:08 AMDatuYou win the card game. You still win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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12-01-2014, 03:10 AMKatsariaIt's still a portion of the content in the game. It's an advantage and it'll ruin the content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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12-01-2014, 03:12 AMTupsiNot..really. Just because you get a head start doesn't immediately make you a winner - you still have to know how to play. If it's similar to TT at all from FFVIII it doesn't matter if you get a set of cards to start if you have none of the skill to actually use them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Datu
It's like buying clears for content - you get what you want, but you aren't winning anything to be honest.
By this logic buying additional retainers ruined content because it allowed people to retainer venture items that come from content. (Dungeon drops for example) and it allows you to hunt crafting materials without actually being there with the exception of DoL ones where you need to gather it first. Thus those with 3+ retainers has an advantage of you and ruined content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsaria
In actuality...nothing gets ruined unless I missed a statement where Yoshida said TT will progress the game for you. -
12-01-2014, 03:13 AMDatuIt's all still pay to win. The second they add a cash shop exclusive card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyrinn
Regardless, I hate the idea of any item (vanity or p2w) being available for purchase with real money outside of the game world. -
12-01-2014, 03:14 AMRiardon
SE walks towards a very dangerous path. I have no problem having some extra optional paid services in shop like server change, name change etc but exclusive things in the cash shop will ruin the game. SE did a lot of work and spent a lot of money to recover FFXIV for it's death 3 years ago and as far as I can tell this work can be destroyed in few moments easily by taking the wrong decisions. Triple Triad will have micro transactions for sure. A mobile app is coming for this. I hope SE will listen to their customers and stop this before it spreads and gets nasty and then will be too late. We already pay subscriptions and buy the dvd for the base game and the upcoming expansion. The optional services are ok but selling exclusive items be it vanity or not with cheap excuses like the need to build EU datacenter etc won't help. Work towards a stable game and future content and stop trying fool us around for extra cash to make your boss happy.
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12-01-2014, 03:14 AMDatuWhy pay to get a head start? A head start in a card game is not just a convenience, it's an advantage in winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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12-01-2014, 03:21 AMLyrinnLet's say you get a morbol card from a booster pack, and let's say I can farm morbols for 30 minutes to get the same card. You saved 30 minutes of effort, but you hold no advantage over me except in those 30 minutes where I'm not even playing. That's pay for convenience, not P2W. As I said in my post, it's a gray area because you can argue it for either side, but it is not inherently P2W. P2W is where a cash shop user will always hold an advantage over a non-cash shop user.Quote:
Originally Posted by Datu
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12-01-2014, 03:45 AMXhominidThat would be true...if ESO and Wildstar didn't died because of the issue of the game design(or in ESO's case, complete overall lack of it) rather than because of doomsayers saying it is...Quote:
Originally Posted by hallena
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12-01-2014, 04:34 AMhallenaBut if you looked at their forum people were claiming left and right people complaining about issues related to game design were the minority. like everytime someone complain about something ever, you always have that random guy poping in saying "hue hue minority"Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhominid
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12-01-2014, 05:00 AMAmused
Seconding the statement OP made. I've already voiced my opinion in another thread regarding the matter, and have said that the moment they introduce even just one more thing that they're charging real life money for, on top of our subscriptions, will be the day that I permanently stop playing this game.
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12-01-2014, 05:32 AMXhominidDammit lost my post...so I'm just gonna shorten it:Quote:
Originally Posted by hallena
The key difference is the fact that unlike FFXIV, ESO and Wildstar I can easily see them talking about it ingame with extreme regularity as well as on the forums meanwhile I'm on Diabolos and most people aren't even crying about it at all. That tells you something.
They implemented a Cash Shop a month ago, why aren't you gone yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Amused
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12-01-2014, 06:13 AMFelisOnly if the card have high numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Datu
Say you can earn a Y'shtol card in a cash shop with 5 and 7 on it, but also can earn a Odin card from Odin FATE with 9 and A on it, then the Y'shtola card would be not a P2W card. It would be a average card with a rare motive.
Also, I hope the loser can lose a card to the winner ^^ -
12-01-2014, 06:23 AMcoldreactive
if the android / ios triple triad app is free to play, it will most definitely have some sort of stamina system and a cash shop system to allow you to bypass it, which means, pay2win-ish. Since the app can trade with the FFXIV Game itself, if that occurs, I think that would be a problem with a lot of people.
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12-01-2014, 06:52 AMPruviant
So let me get this straight. People are upset about the *possibility* that people *might* be able to buy things from the Cash Shop that could *maybe* give them an advantage in a side-game that has absolutely nothing to do with story/raiding/crafting/gathering/gear?Wow.
SE offers aesthetic things only in the Cash Shop ... why would you assume they would start giving players advantages now? I played XI for 8 years and XIV since beta phase 2 and I have ALWAYS seen SE go to great lengths to keep things fair and "balanced". Getting upset over the *potential* of SE to give players an advantage through micro-transactions is baseless and silly.
You know for a fact that they will release more mounts and minions for purchase so might as well uninstall now. Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amused
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12-01-2014, 07:46 AMBlaiseArathTHe bad thing is that its really a supremacist mindset that the minority doesn't matter. "The Vocal Minority" is almost the go to excuse that people without a legitimate reasoning behind (X) sucking or being a bad idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by hallena
In that same light, debates do not always have to be about black and white... and people with different opinions don't always have to see each other as enemies... yet here, or on the internet in general, most people can't understand that a disagreement doesn't mean we're suddenly enemies in the matter simply because you like something and I don't. (psht, I'm just talking on a subject here not pointing it to you)
If you played XI for 8 years you should know there have been more than a dozen cases of SE saying one thing, then deciding something different at a later time. I don't think these people are legit freaking out, just trying to voice their objections to Square... thats what the forums are for. You can obviously voice yours as well too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruviant
So don't see it as a rage (though some are kinda lol...), see it as more of "Square, please don't add actual advantages to the cash shop". Thats all. I personally could see them doing a Booster Pack deal, which I've stated my stance on already... but at the same time, I could see them not doing it, and neither seems more likely to me at this time. Money is a hell of a motivator for companies, and they know people loved Triple Triad... it would be easy for them to sell Booster packs and they'd make a fortune off it I'm sure. -
12-01-2014, 07:50 AMZumi
SE confirmed that there will be a moble app version. Now you know those cell phone apps are king of microtransactions. So I am expecting the ability to buy boosters in cash shop. Look at hearthstone from blizzard they offered the ability to buy boosters in game money or with real money and nobody complained. Hearthstone was so successful for them they stopped making their next gen mmo. You are probably setting yourself up for disappointment if you think will will get a online tcg with a mobile version with no microtransactions.
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12-01-2014, 07:53 AMBlaiseArathOo.. I ... I doubt that lol >_>Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
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12-01-2014, 08:02 AMMogi
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12-01-2014, 08:51 AMDashuto_Ryoko
So just to look at this from another view point that was brought up earlier in the thread, that I've yet to see an answer for. For those saying it should be obtainable in FFXIV and no option for cash shop involved in any way possible... How should the people playing it on Android and IOS obtain new cards, in a way that is fair, and matching, of the way you'd propose we earn them in FFXIV? Do remember, this will be released as an App in both markets, and that the cards will be able to be used in FFXIV and vice-versa. As far as I can see, cash shop would be the best way. That, or give them in a higher rate in the App version to make up for "other ways" (since it's not really agreed on how we would earn them in game from those recommending that method) that we'd earn them in FFXIV.
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12-01-2014, 08:58 AMNimrasBy playing the gameQuote:
Originally Posted by Dashuto_Ryoko
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12-01-2014, 09:01 AMDashuto_RyokoHow do you make it fairly balanced in a way that the people playing the App versions earn cards at the same rate at those in FFXIV? Do we limit how many cards you can get a week? If we make them obtainable without any cash option at all, do you earn, say, 1 card per win in the app, and in FFXIV? What about those who want to find them via events or quests? Do we rule those out to keep it fair?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimras
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12-01-2014, 09:07 AMNimras? triple triad is supposed to be a minigame for ff14 right, are your saying that its also going to be playable on phones _without_ a ff14 account? in that case its an all together terrible idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashuto_Ryoko
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12-01-2014, 09:13 AMDashuto_RyokoYup. That's exactly what they are doing. They plan to add it to their FF Portal App (an app to talk about FF in general, and have things like music and information). It's expected to launch around Winter in Japan first, and when the Gold Saucer comes to FFXIV, it'll have integration with there as well to trade over cards. It's going to be a free-to-play feature in their "master" app for smartphones and tablets, as well as something in FFXIV. No FFXIV account required. Not sure if links are allowed to random sites, but google "Triple Triad to be added to FF Portal App" and you'll find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimras
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12-01-2014, 09:18 AMBlaiseArathIf I had to balance it, I'd probably think "Not everyone owns a smart phone and if its cross playable it seems like its going to be quite difficult to balance in any real way". So my answer? Don't link the two at all, its a terrible concept to begin with. As far as earning them in XIV, I've mentioned this when it was announced and right here in this thread. There's plenty of ways they could do gathering cards that doesn't involve a credit card. Here's some examples (That could all be used in tandem)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashuto_Ryoko
1) Add a "Card" ability similar to "Materia Assimilation", "Dye", etc etc etc. Make it to were "Card" can only be used on enemies at 15% HP or lower, and has a chance of failure (how high or low is up to SE), give it a 30/60/90 second cool down, and let us collect lesser cards by farming the monster... just like in FF8.
2) Give you a small "Starter" set like in 8 from a quest that unlocks "Card", allow you to battle various NPCs around the world to build your card collection as well. Perhaps adding the ability to obtain unique cards from some of these NPCs (Like say, Minfillia could be pretty hard to win against and have the cards for the 3 nation leaders, the Scions could each have their own cards, Primal cards could drop from Normal/Hard/Extreme primals, with significantly higher drop rates in normal (giving people a reason to queue for them, helping low level players clear easier... win win). The possibilities in this regard, are endless, but would require more work... but I think this would be fantastic. "To the Victor go the spoils", just like in 8.
3) Add a card shop to the Saucer. Let us buy "Boosters" as you say with in game currency, or unique points gained through battling with the cards in the Saucer. I may not like the idea of boosters bought with real life money or the general idea of boosters for TT as its not how they're gathered in 8, but I'd have no problems with them being bought with in game currencies if they add other ways to obtain them like the two I listed above... though I'd much much prefer us being able to "Card" enemies rather than having to buy all the cards.
4) Tournaments in the Saucer, or battling other players. When it comes to battling other players, you could of course select the type of battle you want... "For Fun" > don't lost any cards after. "One", one card selected. "All", all cards. Tournaments could be held in the saucer and be against either NPCs (if no enough players sign up), or other players... and the victor would get perhaps ~10 cards with a chance for rarer ones, as well as points/Saucer currency/gil prize (not huge gil prize but still).
So, I'm not against the entire concept of boosters, I'm against boosters being the only way to get good cards or being the only method period. Half the fun in Triple Triad (Hell most of the fun) was collecting all the rare an fun cards to get... bubbling it down to a RNG cash shop roulette would kill my enthusiasm for the concept. Would I quit? probably not, but I would be disappointed cause I'm really looking forward to it. -
12-01-2014, 09:24 AMDashuto_Ryoko
I agree with you that it should not be the ONLY way to earn them. I also don't want to see them make it have any exclusive cards. My question as posed more to the people saying not to allow any cash shop at all. I do like your ideas, the only "issue" is that it's already been announced that they will be linked. No maybe. They will be linked. I think they should offer both options. Ways to earn the cards, and if you want to toss money down, let them buy booster packs. I know if we can earn them all in game, I, as well as others as has been voiced in this thread, will do simply that. Why? I simply enjoy finding and earning neat little things like that. Just don't make any of the options (in game, in app, or cash shop) have any exclusives.
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12-01-2014, 09:46 AMZumi
The game is playable with a stand alone App as well as in game and Apps are known for in app purchases they have to fund the game somehow. Watch the southpark episode "Freemium Isn't Free" if you want to get a better idea how these things actually work it is satire but it makes a good point.
I am sure they will let you earn cards both ways by playing the game and by purchasing packs with real money giving players a choice on how they play.
The way TCG games work online and real ones is you have tiers of cards
common
uncommon
rare
ultra rare
Packs usually consist of like 4 common cards with 1 uncommon or better. You always get at least 1 uncommon but the uncommon slot can have a rare or ultra rare which are the most powerful cards in the game. To keep people buying packs again and again to get those rare or ultra rare cards people keep buying more and more booster for that shot that they pull a rare card. This is the nature off TCG online and real ones how they have worked for years and make a lot of money. -
12-01-2014, 11:20 AMSevenHeavens
I'll buy a booster pack and destroy you in a card game op.