Getting hit by others' enemy AoE while DoL gathering

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Visgal

Exactly, the need to apply it to battles as well. So it's not on DoL that gets the feature.

---

Preventing griefing is not a "feature"

I feel like many people here are not getting the drastic difference there is between being "immune to AoE attacks" and "not susceptible to AoE attacks from mobs that don't even have aggro on me or my party"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taliph

Preventing griefing is not a "feature"

---

You could just use your eyes and ears.


I think we do know you want your single player button.

Happened once? No big deal. Same person doing it to you multiple times? Report for harassment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Visgal

You could just use your eyes and ears.


I think we do know you want your single player button.

---

Not wanting to be griefed while doing a solo activity.... Suddenly I want the whole game single player?

No, the fact that AOE can be aimed by the player with aggro to impact someone else negatively would make it an exploit. Making DoL immune to AOE from mobs that they haven't aggressed would close this exploit. This change would not remove risk of you aggressing a mob accedentally, but it would remove the chance of the DoL being victimized.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

I feel like many people here are not getting the drastic difference

---

You're not understanding that in terms of balance it has to apply to Battles as well. Yoshida has been very clear about keeping the game's balance fair even if he dropped the ball on Ninja. I played since 1.0, and when he took over it's been very clear he's the:

"If I do this for x I HAVE to do this for y as well or it won't be fair."

So it's not that people don't understand (it's not a hard concept), it's the fact it would then have to be applied to the battle system which introduces a whole slew of battle balance issues. As someone said, report for harassment if its the same person multiple times. The game doesn't differentiate between you and someone else when a monster targets an area for an AoE unless it's FATEs for example (due to the special nature of them.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taliph

No, the fact that AOE can be aimed by the player with aggro to impact someone else negatively would make it an exploit..

---

FFXI Salvage party glitch was an exploit.
Titan-Egi ignoring all damage in Primals was an exploit.

The game working as intended is not an exploit >_>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

The game working as intended is not an exploit >_>

---

You realize you just said that the devs intended players to grief other players in this fashion.

How is it fair that anyone can restrict your access to nodes as they pop?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taliph

You realize you just said that the devs intended players to grief other players in this fashion.

---

No I didn't. Here's how the game works:

Monsters uses an Ability that produces a retical
Retical targets the area the player was.
Ability goes off after cast time.
Anyone in the, you know, Area of Effect will be hit.
Special Exceptions include Fates in which you need to level sync to interact with (and even then you may still get hit without Syncing.)

Using the logic you stated would mean turning a boss that has a cleave ability to hit other players were the devs intending you to grief your party. It simply doesn't work that way nor is it an exploit.

Quote:

---

How is it fair that anyone can restrict your access to nodes as they pop?

---

Same way it's fair that monsters can knock you out of events/interactions due to being "under attack" - It's an intended part of the system. You can't control people harassing others because every time SE tries, people try to fight against the changes they make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

No I didn't. Here's how the game works:

Monsters uses an Ability that produces a retical
Retical targets the area the player was.
Ability goes off after cast time.
Anyone in the, you know, Area of Effect will be hit.
Special Exceptions include Fates in which you need to level sync to interact with (and even then you may still get hit without Syncing.)

Using the logic you stated would mean turning a boss that has a cleave ability to hit other players were the devs intending you to grief your party. It simply doesn't work that way nor is it an exploit.

---

So, if the devs did not in fact intend DoL to be griefed in this way, which I know they didn't, makes it using the game system in an exploitive fashion. By definition an exploit.

You cannot have it both ways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

Same way it's fair that monsters can knock you out of events/interactions due to being "under attack" - It's an intended part of the system. You can't control people harassing others because every time SE tries, people try to fight against the changes they make.

---

You know that they patched that in many cases due to griefing? Like the low level ACN quests that people couldn't complete due to the quest npc being in the middle of aoe spam?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taliph

So, if the devs did not in fact intend DoL to be griefed in this way, which I know they didn't, makes it using the game system in an exploitive fashion.

---

AoE's are indeed intended to hit anyone in the AoE. That's why they're called Area of Effect. Unless you're new to the game, I'm pretty sure you realize the game is designed to interrupt interactions if you're under attack (as stated by the popup text: Action Cancelled - You're under attack.) Why would that exist if the developers didn't intend for interactions to be interrupted?

You don't go to the trouble creating a system and even informing your players of it activating if it was in fact not intended. You seem to be confusing exploit and harassment.

Exploiting is doing something unintended for a gain, like Titan Egi tanking Ramuh Ex was an Exploit and even fixed by SE shortly after it was discovered. He wasn't used because he made a good tank, he was used because he erroneously took literally no damage, something other tanks did take.

Harassment would be someone pulling a monster to you gathering and having it hurt you. In your definition, a player running by on a chocobo and decides to run infront of a malboro that's usin bad breath and he gets hit would be an exploit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taliph

You know that they patched that in many cases due to griefing? Like the low level ACN quests that people couldn't complete due to the quest npc being in the middle of aoe spam?

---

You mean the Arcanist storyline quest where the monsters would spawn ontop of the quest marker? That wasn't patched due to griefing - That was patched because players usually fought the monster where it spawned rather than dragging it away, it wasn't done on purpose. Considering I was one of many who took up ACN/SCH on launch of 2.0 I remember this specific issue very clearly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

You're not understanding that in terms of balance it has to apply to Battles as well.

---

Please don't use the word balance when you don't have a slight clue of what it means.

Why on earth are you comparing DoL balance with DoM/DoW balance? And even misquoting Yoshida on it yet again (seriously changing dev words to spread misinformation should be bannable)

DoL and Battle balance have absolutely nothing to do with each other, DoL even gets a stealth skill that no battle class has other than Ninja.

This whole thread is about preventing griefing in case you missed it (and I'm sure you did).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alukah

DoL and Battle balance have absolutely nothing to do with each other

---

Your usual personal attacks aside - Before you tell someone else they don't understand something, you fail to realize unless it's relating to their specific venues, e.g what Nodes produces versus what battle content produces, they do have something in common.

Both can engage in combat (though you wouldn't want to as a DoL/DoH other than for kicks) which means it would indeed require a general battle system change, since it involves the battle system. I assume you don't do gathering, which means you probably missed the fact if a monster aggros you or you get hit by an AoE you immediately enter Battle. Meaning it's part of the battle system.

Forcing competition to lose out on resources such as time can be seen as a net gain...

That's not even mentioning that for most trolls, just disturbing another person's playing time is a gain.

How about you post your definition of exploit, I'll go point by point and prove that this is indeed an exploit.

Not everybody who disagrees with you is out there to attack you, Tupsi, you can say people attack you when you get called XI fanboy, but you like to throw that word everytime someone disagrees with you.

The balance of DoL and Battle classes are not the same, they are not balanced in the same way and I still don't get where are you getting that, not to mention a change like this wouldn't give DoL an unfair advantage over Battle classes, because DoL aren't meant to battle in the first place.

Getting interrupted by a mob you aggroed is perfectly okay, it's part of the punishment for gathering in a high level area without using the tool provided (stealth).

Getting griefed by someone dragging a mob to you while you're stealthed and losing the unspoiled node or mooch is not okay, it's not part of the DoL balance and thats why it's considered griefing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alukah

Not everybody who disagrees with you is out there to attack you, Tupsi,.

---

Oh, I didn't say everyone, you just normally personally attack - Or using your logic, I would have said Taliph was personally attacking me even though he disagrees, no?

Quote:

---

DoL aren't meant to battle in the first place.

---

Tell Yoshida to remove the ability to engage and attack enemies while on DoH/DoL (kind of the requirement to do battle.) You can battle, you just wouldn't survive it nor is it recommended to. (Notice they also went through the trouble of giving them their own battle idle stance change?)

Quote:

---

Getting griefed by someone dragging a mob to you while you're stealthed and losing the unspoiled node or mooch is not okay

---

This is why it would be a general battle system change..as stated. There's no difference between how the same monster interacts with you unless, as said, they do a general change. Someone harassing you will happen no matter what SE does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

Tell Yoshida to remove the ability to engage and attack enemies while on DoH/DoL (kind of the requirement to do battle.) You can battle, you just wouldn't survive it nor is it recommended to. (Notice they also went through the trouble of giving them their own battle idle stance change?)

---

Read the line you intentionally ignored:

Quote:

---

Getting interrupted by a mob you aggroed is perfectly okay, it's part of the punishment for gathering in a high level area without using the tool provided (stealth).

---

Being able to battle = self defense if you get aggroed. The point you missed is that it's not a primarily battle class, other than self defense that even DoH gets. Enhancing the already existing stealth will not upset the balance with battle classes, they are completely different and balanced in a different way.

(Notice they also went through the trouble of giving them their own battle idle stance change?)

False, all non battle classes get the PLD stance, they don't get their own. And either way I fail to see the relevance here, it's just a persistent emote.

Quote:

---

This is why it would be a general battle system change..as stated. There's no difference between how the same monster interacts with you unless, as said, they do a general change. Someone harassing you will happen no matter what SE does.

---

And you're still wrong, it's not general, saying that Battle should get it if DoL gets it is plain wrong because they are not and have never been in the same category, not mentioning that should it be implemented it would be on the stealth skill no battle class owns other than Ninja. (actually ninja is a stretch since theirs is special, called Hide)

How come you don't say anything about a few classes having aggro immunity (stealth) while the majority of them don't having it? Using your logic that would also break the balance, unless you now meant to say that engaging a mob is not part of combat.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/283...-popcorn-o.gif

This thread sure got dramatic quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alukah

Getting griefed by someone dragging a mob to you while you're stealthed and losing the unspoiled node or mooch is not okay, it's not part of the DoL balance and thats why it's considered griefing.

---

And because of this you can report people for harassment (not for exploid) if it happen more than once.

So I tested it.
I hit a Morbol as a fisher, got hit by his AoE, waited 3 seconds before running away and didn't die

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

And because of this you can report people for harassment (not for exploid) if it happen more than once.

---

I'm well aware, but OP's proposal would remove the issue rather than band-aid it.

And not even a good band-aid, it's unlikely GMs will do anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

So I tested it.
I hit a Morbol as a fisher, got hit by his AoE, waited 3 seconds before running away and didn't die

---

I'm not sure you are understanding what the issue is, it's not that people are getting 1 shot by AoEs, when you try to gather from an unspoiled node you cannot leave the node until you're done or the node will disappear, if you get attacked while gathering from an unspoiled node it will close and it will disappear.

As a fisher, if you get attacked while you have a fish mooched you will lose the mooch.

Normally we have the stealth action to avoid pulling aggressive mobs, but it doesn't prevent others from either accidentally or intentionally pulling mobs near you, getting hit by AoEs and losing whatever you're doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

Tbh, an argument could potentially be made for not allowing AoEs to hit any players who do not have any sort of aggro on the enemy using the AoE.

---

^ This
Its also an issue when you have multiple people doing the same quest where mobs spawn and suddenly 6 or 8 of them are doing AoEs instead of 2.
Or, altho this may have been fixed since the start of release when it was a huge issue, bringing people out of cutscenes or interactions for story and they have to go thru the whole action again.

Quote:

---

Same way it's fair that monsters can knock you out of events/interactions due to being "under attack" - It's an intended part of the system. You can't control people harassing others because every time SE tries, people try to fight against the changes they make.

---

Difference is, when this happens you almost always can just immediately click and try it again.

Again, if this happens to you on an unspoiled/mooch, you have just lost a whole lot of time.

Quote:

---

Happened once? No big deal. Same person doing it to you multiple times? Report for harassment.

---

With me, it hasn't actually been the same person doing it. It still happens extremely frequently, which is exactly why I made this thread. This is one of the biggest recurring issues for me that is getting me irked at other players, and like I said there is no reason for it to exist at all especially when it can potentially serve as such an easy means to grief other players.

I've been hit countless times by aoe from the sandworm fates in forgotten springs when going out to gather my daily map over there. Its kind of ridiculous having to start gathering with a blind status effect while having some enemy you didn't even touch aggro you. Its no fun either when you are trying to get one of those timed unspoiled nodes and someone is killing stuff or participating in a fate right on top of that same node. Unnecessary aggro while gathering is about as irritating as having a fate pop right where you are trying to gather something. Idc about harassment because there will always be in game trolls, but this shouldn't be able to happen in the first place. Aggro should just be for those who attack something as a battle class, not innocent gatherers just trying to gather something from a node. There should be immunity from it unless we decide to hit something or forget to use stealth when we need to.

Man I remember when in games you would murder people gathering and take their goods.

Now people get upset if you get hit by a monster AOE. I get that it can be used to harass people but does this actually happen often intentionally?

Frequently? Is everyone on your server that oblivious or selfish when it comes to kiting? In all my times gathering as a miner, I rarely got interrupted by someone else's fights. The only thing I can say is if you are going to go for an unspoiled node, double check the area so there's no one around or just wait a minute before moving in.

Quote:

---

Man I remember when in games you would murder people gathering and take their goods.

---

Yeah, which is exactly why I'm playing games like FFXI and FFXIV, and not any games like that anymore. The PK/looting aspect is no fun to me.

Quote:

---

Now people get upset if you get hit by a monster AOE. I get that it can be used to harass people but does this actually happen often intentionally?

---

It is happening to me often, probably unintentionally. But whether intentionally or not, it should not be happening at all.

FFXI made this change a long while back where you generally would not be harmed by AoEs from enemies that did not have aggro on you or your party, and guess what? The game got a lot less irritating after that, as nearly everyone who got blown up by some other party's goblin bomb in the Kazham jungles could attest.

Quote:

---

Frequently? Is everyone on your server that oblivious or selfish when it comes to kiting?

---

About 2-3 times a week in recent weeks for me.

It isn't really kiting, either. Most of the time, it's just someone running through the area, probably trying to get to a FATE or whatever, and they aggro things that immediately try to AoE them. It is happening to me most often at the North Shards with the hapalits, but lately it's been happening to me at a couple of unspoiled nodes too, and that's where it crossed the "enough is enough" threshold for me and this thread got made.

Gatherers should not be immune to attacks.

Do you guys realize that all these pointless debates didn't matter since the act of interrupting someone's gathering with mob AOE caused by other's intentionally/unintentionally are still considered as grieve offense and reportable, right? :p

Think GM/Moderator already said so. So... whatever danger-excuse fiesta that anyone tries to defend, it's still wrong. Don't like it? Argue with GM. :p

If any of you still think it's ok to disrupt someone, how about me driving through your lawn in real world? Tell me if you're ok with that. You got yourself sense of danger, unless you're gonna complain, which makes you a hypocrite. lol

BTW, as far as I see in this game, there's no way a gatherer could get interrupted since they do have distance from any danger and has the hide skill too. It's definitely a grieve attack if someone did bring a mob AOE to your nose. :p

Quote:

---

Gatherers should not be immune to attacks.

---

Except this isn't what I've been asking for.

Quote:

---

Do you guys realize that all these pointless debates didn't matter since the act of interrupting someone's gathering with mob AOE caused by other's intentionally/unintentionally are still considered as grieve offense and reportable, right?

---

Yeah but the thing is, the majority of the time it probably really is an accident, because of how easily it happens.

I don't want to have to report every single person guilty of this. I just want it to stop happening.

Quote:

---

BTW, as far as I see in this game, there's no way a gatherer could get interrupted since they do have distance from any danger and has the hide skill too.

---

Try it.

It's pretty obvious from this thread who have DoLs at 50 and who don't.

This has only ever been a problem for me once. WOuldn't mind not being hit but don't care much for it either.

Just happened to me again at North Shards, by some lv41 NIN trying to fight the hapalits.

I think it's an underlying issue they have not bothered to actually find a full solution to.

Since this doesn't just apply to interrupting DoL, it also interrupts anyone who is trying to talk to an Quest NPC, or in the middle of viewing a cutscene.

What kind of cut scene? I am pretty sure ones that "load" a scene marks your character as "viewing cut scene" and thus cannot be interacted with.

This has even happened to me without another player being present. Ever been gathering while a FATE pops on top of you? There's no warning whatsoever. There's also FATE's that have opposing sides fighting each other with AoE's (though you can only be hit by one side) so with 0 players present you can still be hit by someone else's AoE. I firmly believe that Stealth should protect you from AoE's if you aren't on the enemy's list.

People keep saying that it would need to be implemented for combatants as well but (aside from Ninja which I've not yet unlocked and am not familiar with enough to say either way), the monsters interact with players under stealth and the way they interact with players not under stealth differs drastically. They do not equate in any way so I do not see how any addition to the effectiveness of stealth needs to equate with anything DoW/M based..?

Perhaps it could even add a CD timer to stealth so that people couldn't be on a combat class, see something difficult to navigate, jump on a DoL and immediately stealth to get past. Otherwise, it could be a separate but similar skill. I dunno but something should definitely be done to sort this out.

The only place where I think it's really important for non combatants to be immune to AoE's that they didn't bring on themselves is in the case of quest scenes where they're blind and immobile until it finishes. I think they should be immune there and then too, but I don't do enough of these things recently, I thought that was already the case for the ACN quests at least, must be misremembering.

Yeah.. I hate to say it OP, but angry monsters don't discriminate who they land there attacks on. They are out for blood, whether you are just trying gather some rocks or chop some wood, an angry monster is still blood thirsty no matter who it's ire is directed on. I am pretty sure it doesn't give a crap who it hits with an attack that is designed to hit multiple people.

Maybe you should be more cautious? It's not like the AOEs are completely unavoidable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ecks007

Maybe you should be more cautious? It's not like the AOEs are completely unavoidable.

---

If you are gathering and don't want to lose the buffs on the tree, yes it is.
The bigger issue is, that it throws you out of gathering. I wouldn't mind eating an AOE or two, if I could continue to gathering and just ignore whatever's attacking me, till I'm done gathering or ko.

Quote:

---

Yeah.. I hate to say it OP, but angry monsters don't discriminate who they land there attacks on. They are out for blood, whether you are just trying gather some rocks or chop some wood, an angry monster is still blood thirsty no matter who it's ire is directed on. I am pretty sure it doesn't give a crap who it hits with an attack that is designed to hit multiple people.

---

If that's the case, that boss/primal who just showed up and made their grand entrance in a cutscene all ready to slaughter you shouldn't bother waiting until someone gets close or attacks them to engage your party, right? They should be "out for blood" and they should already be attacking your party before everyone is even ready, right?

Sometimes "realism" concessions have to be made for the sake of an enjoyable game experience. This is one of them.

Quote:

---

Maybe you should be more cautious? It's not like the AOEs are completely unavoidable.

---

AoEs are indeed completely unavoidable in gathering mode, because of this little issue of not being able to move.

"oh just exit gathering mode then, durr hurr"

Yeah, except that will make you lose your buffs or unspoiled node/mooch anyway. Issue completely not addressed.

I support this; there's no reason to be clipped by an AOE that's not targeting you while you're at the node. You can't move while engaging a node- the interruption could potentially result in a lose of significant time or money (the once per day nodes).
As stated, you could lose significant buffs by disengaging...not to mention how SLLLOOOOW FFXIV is with anything menu related...by the time you disengage to move the AOE has already landed.

Contrary to what some posters are typing, this is nothing like being a DoW/DoM and wandering into the odd AOE and has nothing to do with "playing by the same rules".

If immunity is not the answer then something else should be available to allow dodging (a TP move, perhaps that allows the player to duck and weave)

This is highly annoying especially by the cluster nodes in Mor Dhona. It's not a huge deal to me since I'll just wait another 14 minutes for the next node to spawn but it doesn't make it any less annoying. The problem is the griefing potential is quite high.

They could maybe just make getting hit by damage not cancel gathering instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

If that's the case, that boss/primal who just showed up and made their grand entrance in a cutscene all ready to slaughter you shouldn't bother waiting until someone gets close or attacks them to engage your party, right? They should be "out for blood" and they should already be attacking your party before everyone is even ready, right?

---

As far as I know both the mob and the raid boss still work on the same aggro system. Once someone gets close enough and/or seen/heard they get targeted first. Nothing changed there.

So here's a thought. Switch to a DoW/DoM class real quick and kill the measly, relatively easy-to-kill mob if it's in the way of your node that you need and then switch back to your DoL and gather away. Or.. don't switch and kill it with your DoL class (it's not that hard to do, I've killed level 49/50? Piestes as a Miner in N. Than) ((side note: I haven't mined there in a while so I forgot the level range))

Now if someone is deliberately targeting you by dragging a mob to you and making it AOE on you to disrupt your gathering, then I am pretty sure that's something that can be reported, or should be able to be reported as harassment (and you should report them).

If it's something unfortunate like a mob spawning on you while you're gathering well.. stuff happens. You missed a node, or at least your buffs on it. It's not the end of the world.