Thanks for removing all fun in crafting.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

If you can't afford to straight up buy a Supra, you don't have enough gil to act as seed money to craft 4* anyway, thus you don't need a Supra.

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She does have a point. I did the math on 4-star crafting a long time ago and came to the conclusion that not only did I not have enough gil to go all the way with it, but it also wasn't worth that much gil if I did have it. I've been waiting patiently, gearing through poetics, and making money as if 4-star didn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

If you can't accept that part of RNG is part of high level crafting now, stop crafting.

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You clearly do not see anything being posted here as anything other than "Wah wah gimme stuff" so either read the posts or expect nobody to care what you're saying.
Also
You know who gets to tell me what I can do in this game?
Not you.
I pay just as much as money as you do to play
If I think they screwed the pooch on something, I have a right to complain.
The only one that needs to deal with it here is you and other likeminded folk.
You clearly do not give a damn what anyone here has to say.
You do not get to tell me what I should and should not be doing while playing.
You have absolutely 0 ground to do that.
I decide what content I do or do not like
I decide what I want to complain about.
I decide what I think needs to be changed.
You don't.
If I decide I think something should be nerfed because it was either poorly designed or doesn't mesh well with new stuff, I'm gonna say so, and the only thing you can do is deal with it.
Because I'm not gonna stop crafting just because you tell me I don't have enough money.
You do not get to make that decision and you never will.
And while I respect your right to your opinion, if you're telling me I just shouldn't attempt something because you don't think I'm hardcore enough, I am going to wholly ignore your opinion.
Because your opinion is patronizing and awful.

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Originally Posted by TheodoreMcIntyre

excessive use of newline

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I happen to like the way crafting is now, with an element of risk that means HQ is no longer 100% in addition to having to work to unlock new recipes. I'm offering a counter that things are fine the way they are.

Also, based on your lodestone you aren't even capable of doing 3* (at least on LTW, and based on your not-max melded accessories, not on any other craft either...) so why do you care about mastercraft demi again? They are only required for meeting 4* requirements.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

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Thank you for ignoring literally everything I said and continuing to be patronizing for absolutely no good reason at all.
No, my LTW isn't capable of 3 stars. Every other craft is. I decided not to Artisan my LTW because nothing LTW makes was appealing to me.
I want the Mastercraft Demimateria because I want the new Artisan gear and to get Supras for my CUL and WVR, which very much are capable of 3 star crafting.
So don't assume I don't need them, or don't want them, not that it's relevant anyway.

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with an element of risk that means HQ is no longer 100%

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It's not the recipes I'm complaining about, and if you had bothered to actually read a single post of mine you'd know that.
It's getting the demimateria to get the gear to try and get back on the steep crafting curve that SE has put in that I'm concerned with. Because after I hit 3 star on most of my crafts, I stopped caring and got behind with advancing them.
Now I would like to get back to it, but I can't because the implementation of the Demimateria and Desynthesis system was so horribly thought out by SE that it's created an awful wall that's a serious, expensive pain in the ass to get over with no signs of nerfing it appropriately like they do other content and I don't even know why I bother typing this because you're not even reading it anyway.

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Originally Posted by TheodoreMcIntyre

Now I would like to get back to it, but I can't because the implementation of the Demimateria and Desynthesis system was so horribly thought out by SE that it's created an awful wall that's a serious, expensive pain in the ass to get over with no signs of nerfing it

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That the point, you *Can*, but you can't be bothered, which is fair enough, but why ask for "Master Crafting" to be nerfed?

FCIII did impact the ammount of Mastercraft demi's, because there used to be a lot more people desynthing the glasses in order to get FCIII, Mastercrafts were far cheaper than FCIII.

I do think some other classes should be able to get them, I don't think they should be handed out to everyone like FCIII's were.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

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35 successfully desynthed Artisan glasses is what you call "can't be bothered"?
That's
pretty insulting, actually.

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Originally Posted by TheodoreMcIntyre

35 successfully desynthed Artisan glasses is what you call "can't be bothered"?
That's
pretty insulting, actually.

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I'm not gonna say it means you can't be bothered, but 35 is a pretty low number. Anyone that has supplied all their own mastercraft has probably done hundreds. I know i've personally done about 300ish give or take.

I just wanna thrown in a lil personal irritation about "RNG" in this game.

Artisan Offhand, 92% HQ chance... NQ...
Okay, seriously... every time... every f*ckin time that something is above 90% but below 100%, it almost always NQ's... Its like when you get to 90%, your HQ chance becomes 10*(Chance-90)... so a "92% chance" is ACTUALLY MORE LIKE 20 F*CKIN 20%.

On the other hand... they actually didnt f*ck up Artisan body pieces with the HQ bullshit... You can reach the stat caps with an NQ Artisan body piece using 5 melds, 3 of which are guaranteed... Now THAT is good. That is something where if RNG decides to say F*UCK YOU Mr. 92% CHANCE! you still get an item that CAN be just as good as the HQ version, but for more effort.

Sadly the VAST... VAST majority of items are HQ or bust.

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Originally Posted by Rocond

I'm not gonna say it means you can't be bothered, but 35 is a pretty low number. Anyone that has supplied all their own mastercraft has probably done hundreds. I know i've personally done about 300ish give or take.

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If you're telling me I've gotta do hundreds of them just to get one Mastercraft Demimateria, because so far I've gotten none and that's what I was trying to get across in that post, then, yeah, I think I should probably just give up now because that's not in any way worth it.

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Originally Posted by TheodoreMcIntyre

If you're telling me I've gotta do hundreds of them just to get one Mastercraft Demimateria, because so far I've gotten none and that's what I was trying to get across in that post, then, yeah, I think I should probably just give up now because that's not in any way worth it.

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If that's how you feel, then yeah. I know I certainly don't like to do things that I don't feel are worth it.

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Originally Posted by Rocond

If that's how you feel, then yeah. I know I certainly don't like to do things that I don't feel are worth it.

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Honestly
The entire desynthesis system suffers from the same problems that the Atma drops had.
Granted, pre i70 it's not so bad.
It's easy enough to get tons of grade I and II demimateria because you can mass-craft and desynth that stuff.
But when it comes to getting these mastercraft demimateria, you get alot of people who have absolutely unrelenting bad luck with these drops. Then it turns into a giant and discouraging wall, and, frankly, if a game feels like it's going out of its way to make you feel like you've been walled off from content and actively discourages you, then that's just bad game design. On top of that, they keep adding more and more walls you have to scale to keep going on, so by the time you've got your Supras, now all of a sudden you have to get your Chanticlo Nexus to make any of the newer stuff. There could've been so many better ways to go about putting this stuff in, but they're so incredibly insistent on RNG that it's frankly ridiculous. If they're so adamant in keeping it like that, the very least they could do is make it easier to get this stuff as content goes on and on and on. You know, like they do with literally everything else in the game. But we've had these for like, what? Four months now? Probably soon to be five? And yet we have no indication of any plans to make it easier or reasonable, just that they're going to make a little less high-end recipes in the future.

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Originally Posted by TheodoreMcIntyre

the very least they could do is make it easier to get this stuff as content goes on and on and on. You know, like they do with literally everything else in the game.

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They have already made it easier to obtain Supra's (FCIII's) and they have made past tiers of crafting far more accessable (1*/2*/3*).

High-end crafting is still a grind, but it should be, for now atleast.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

They have already made it easier to obtain Supra's (FCIII's) and they have made past tiers of crafting far more accessable (1*/2*/3*).

High-end crafting is still a grind, but it should be, for now atleast.

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Making it easier to get fieldcraft IIIs while not making it any more reasonable to get Mastercraft Demimateria (And then making it so you need even more of them thanks to all the new gear) is a pretty shoddy way to nerf something.

I don't know how you can compare it to atma. You cannot bypass atma droprate by visiting the market board.

If you refuse to buy it off market, that's your problem. If you refuse to make gil for it, that's also your problem.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

If you don't have the money to buy it then it's because you're lazy and absolutely nothing else also if you don't have the money to just buy it you don't deserve to advance in crafting

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Pbbbbbbbbt

It takes me about 10 minutes of crafting to make enough to get 1 matercraft (return on sales typically within 24hr). If you can't figure out how to make that amount in 1 hour with the multiple 3* you claim to have, yes you're lazy and the rut you're stuck in is entirely on you.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

snip

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I agree that the i70 off hand and Supra exist, more or less, only to do 4 star. However, the time/gil required to get to 4* compared to the much lacking market for crafted gear means there is little motivation to get to 4*.

You have an already niche market that is going to be even worse because fewer crafters will further inflate prices.

Also, I liked the idea that you have to start focusing on specific classes to go 4* rather than getting all 8 of them there. This would be all good if it weren't for the fact that the barrier keeping you from getting all your classes to 4* is surmounted by gil. The 50 HQ turn-ins for artisan tools was just done better.

Honestly if their goal is to keep people from being 8/8 4* I'd rather they just link the Mastercrafts to the class that obtained them (ex: Mastercraft (Blacksmith) is obtained by desynthing as a blacksmith and can only get the BSM supra) so that you'd have to advance the same crafts as your desynth, while also making Mastercrafts unsellabe/untradable so that people had to actually go through the grind themselves.

This is part of the problem with allowing everyone to level every craft while also insisting that crafted gear inferior to raid gear without sinking absurd amounts of gil/time into getting materia to meld them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

It takes me about 10 minutes of crafting to make enough to get 1 matercraft (return on sales typically within 24hr). If you can't figure out how to make that amount in 1 hour with the multiple 3* you claim to have, yes you're lazy and the rut you're stuck in is entirely on you.

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So if everyone is buying MCDs off the board then no one would be getting them from desynth. Your logic makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Whoever designed demimateria to be used in recipes just because they added the desynthesizing feature should be removed off the team. RNG is crap to work with. I've stopped caring about the crafts because of this.

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This so much.
I hope whomever came up with the Mastercraft demimateria idea gets fired and never again on his life gets another job.

The time to capitalize on the 4* equipment market has come and gone, since the people who were going to buy it at high margins already have done so, and more crafters have also emerged. There's still 5? months left for it to be useful though and I expect 2.5 to bring new stuff for a short crafting boom again.

The barrier for 4* is also crafting the items for mastercraft book. The 50 HQ turn-ins is hit a 1&2 macro 50 times.

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Originally Posted by aerolol

This so much.
I hope whomever came up with the Mastercraft demimateria idea gets fired and never again on his life gets another job.

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So you wish ruin upon a person when his job was to design a grind to gate people to get about one craft per week up to 4* if they didn't throw gil at it? Ok.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

Honestly if their goal is to keep people from being 8/8 4* I'd rather they just link the Mastercrafts to the class that obtained them (ex: Mastercraft (Blacksmith) is obtained by desynthing as a blacksmith and can only get the BSM supra) so that you'd have to advance the same crafts as your desynth, while also making Mastercrafts unsellabe/untradable so that people had to actually go through the grind themselves.

This is part of the problem with allowing everyone to level every craft while also insisting that crafted gear inferior to raid gear without sinking absurd amounts of gil/time into getting materia to meld them.



So if everyone is buying MCDs off the board then no one would be getting them from desynth. Your logic makes no sense.

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So your solution to having people not buy stuff off the market as an optional exercise is to make it absolutely required if you want to craft multiple items (see: uses for Terminus Putty)? Also one of the cornerstone points of the game is the ability to do all classes on one character, and that completely contradicts that. So no, that will never happen and it's a horrible idea.

Also logic is fine. If the price on master demi went up to a point where it would take longer to earn the gil than it would be to make a batch of specs to desynth, then I would obviously go towards the desynth route and make them myself (then sell them too!).

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I'm a super economist and if you can't make money like me then you're just a lazy bum

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See, when you can take your quote and title it by Donald Trump, like so:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Donald Trump

I'm a super economist and if you can't make money like me then you're just a lazy bum

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I'm not really inclined to believe you.

Quote:

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So if everyone is buying MCDs off the board then no one would be getting them from desynth. Your logic makes no sense.

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if more people buy it the price will increase and more people will start producing them because they are greedy, the price will drop and in the end it stays the same as before and everyone is happy except you

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

I recently priced out gearing two classes at 16 mil in only those two materials. Fine. I could spend 16 million gil to gear up and what does that get me? Well, I can make i110 stuff. They cost 1-3 million in materials each. Ouch. If the equipment is for my personal use, I could get poetics for i120 and soldiery/sands for i110 for a modest investment of time compared to how long it would take to make 25 million gil by crafting.

At the end of the day, the risks outweigh the rewards and the costs outweigh the benefits. By a long shot.

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Definitely agree giantslayer.

In 1.0, even though I was far more interested in combat / raiding, I still took the time to grind and craft; it was attainable and you never felt like your efforts were going to be wasted.

At the current fast pace of Patches & Upgrades in 2.0, and the increased RNG / grinding / costs, I feel like it's just not worth it to grind and try to upgrade all my crafts now. :(

Especially with 3.0 Heavensward coming out Spring 2015 (we're already in December 2014!), it's like, "Why bother? EVERYONE will have to upgrade their gear yet again for Level 60 Cap."

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Originally Posted by Kiara

At the current fast pace of Patches & Upgrades in 2.0, and the increased RNG / grinding / costs, I feel like it's just not worth it to grind and try to upgrade all my crafts now. :(

Especially with 3.0 Heavensward coming out Spring 2015 (we're already in December 2014!), it's like, "Why bother? EVERYONE will have to upgrade their gear yet again for Level 60 Cap."

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Exactly. All this i110 equipment will be outdated in a few months. You know what won't be outdated when the expansion comes out? 25+ million Gil I can save by not doing 4-star. The game designers have been careful to regulate the supply of currency in the game. Currency does not inflate anywhere near the rate gear does. A million Gil is a lot of money now and it still will be in a few months. At the end of the day, as they say in business, "cash is king."

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

Exactly. All this i110 equipment will be outdated in a few months. You know what won't be outdated when the expansion comes out? 25+ million Gil I can save by not doing 4-star. The game designers have been careful to regulate the supply of currency in the game. Currency does not inflate anywhere near the rate gear does. A million Gil is a lot of money now and it still will be in a few months. At the end of the day, as they say in business, "cash is king."

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Some crafters have made a decent amount of gil from 4*, but the majority (especially those just getting into it) will be facing huges loses, considering how much it costs to get Supra/meld offhands/books etc.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Some crafters have made a decent amount of gil from 4*, but the majority (especially those just getting into it) will be facing huges loses, considering how much it costs to get Supra/meld offhands/books etc.

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The only longevity any gear has is for spirit binding. Materia doesn't really degrade. Gear ilvl comes and goes, but the materia you throw into it doesn't discriminate against this. And thanks to overmeld failure as well as Novus progression will be in demand for a long time.

My holiday is over i don't have much time to play anymore much less for crafting pointless stuff to be blown up for depression. So i sucked it up, closed my eyes and bought 12 mastercraft demimateria which is about 3 million on the tonberry server. And upgraded my bsm, arm, gsm and ltw main tool to supra. I know i am suppose to feel bad about it but i just feel so relieved that only my alc needs upgrading after this. Come over to tonberry guys the mats are so much cheaper here. But the profits are much smaller too.

Personally find it hilarious people are complaining about mastercraft when I believe Sealants much worse design decision. You are basically required to have DoL's levelled to farm sealants.

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Originally Posted by sackm

Personally find it hilarious people are complaining about mastercraft when I believe Sealants much worse design decision. You are basically required to have DoL's levelled to farm sealants.

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How? The gathering nodes required for some of the ixali quests are in the level 1~5 range. If anything, you need DoL to be able to get the materials to craft the stuff to desyn into mastercraft (or buy them, but the same can be said for purchasing sealants).

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Originally Posted by Bubblegum01

So i sucked it up, closed my eyes and bought 12 mastercraft demimateria which is about 3 million on the tonberry server.

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The cost of 12 mastercrafts on your server is the cost of 3 on my server :(.

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Originally Posted by sackm

Personally find it hilarious people are complaining about mastercraft when I believe Sealants much worse design decision. You are basically required to have DoL's levelled to farm sealants.

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DoL? Do you mean DoH, because of some of the Coerthas quests I could see being difficult without cross class skills? If I was going to say Sealants are a bad design decision it would be that they are sellable on the board. It's safer to sell the sealants than it is to craft the off hands and sell those.

Honestly
If they don't fix some of the terrible design decisions they've made in the most recent patches
I am wholly willing to unsub
I haven't been able to progress worth a damn because of SEs horrid inability to nerf older content.

I think the root of these problems is the weird combination of SE greatly increasing the effective progress and quality requirements for these items, so that we have to start with HQ materials... Then making the bulk of the ingredients not available in an HQ form.
Quality went from 2921 on 2 stars, which were deemed "too easy to HQ" by people with perfect gear, skills, and rotations.
To 4980 (+70%) on 3 stars, which along with the progress and lvl difference increases meant we needed to spend more turns on progress, resulted in these recipes all but demanding HQ mats for a decent hq chance.
Then to 5781 (+16%) on 4 stars, along with more progress increases, and a lvl difference which reduces the effects of Ingenuity 1 and 2 to nearly nothing. So more progress steps, but now many of the ingredients do not exist in an HQ form. Most 4 star recipes start with ~25-30% quality, which means we now need to put out 4000+ quality to reach 100% HQ, using "similar" stats to what we had on 2 stars.

So progress needs more steps. Quality needs more steps. Starting quality is lower. Durability remains the same. Yet our stats did not magically double as we became 4 star crafters. So we turn to other methods, ones which involve greater risk for greater reward.
Even then... back we 2 star crafting was "easy", you would want to start with ~20-30% quality, did a 100% chance rotation which typically involved 6 touches, then a buffed BB, and finish.
Now we need 9-10 successful touches, at an 80% chance each, AND often need to fish for a Good or Excellent condition for BB... Its just a crafting lottery. And given the rather LARGE stat difference between NQ and HQ, losing the crafting lottery will often cost you a million+ in materials alone.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

SNIP

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I honestly don't feel this way at all. I used NQ mats for 2 star recipes since Vanya was selling for 1mil+. I now use NQ mats for 3 star and 4 star unless I am synthing for someone else. Besides the artisan/forager synthes, 4 star are super cheap to craft. I target my cousin and tell him step-by-step what action to do because he cannot do the master 2 books because he is just so set in his old methods like a lot of crafters are. He now has almost all 4 stars unlocked this way with very few failures (1-2 per book). I find crafting now to actually require some amount of skill or thought process. Before it was just hit macro A.../echo done hit macro B, /hurray I am doing something absolutely everyone can do without thinking.

4 star crafting is actually fun.

whats not fun is the amount of shards needed for the tokens. all the reclaims cause a massive loss of shards. gathering shards is very tedious and time consuming.

thats the only thing killing it for me. i wish i was rich enough to buy shards from MB :(

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Originally Posted by Rath

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You could macro to craft because you were pretty much overgeared for that level of crafting. Before that, you needed HQ materials, and if you didn't have that you needed a bit of RNG to favor you to get a good amount of quality. With something like master II books, you can't HQ and you need a relatively good amount of luck to even get it to the 65% HQ rate threshold. There's no skill involved, just watching and praying that you get plenty of good conditions for TotT and hope you land an excellent at the end for BB.

It's just Atma all over again in a different form. People say its not too bad when they can get to 100% HQ...when they reach over 40 steps in the crafting process and land an excellent for their BB finisher. They either cherry picked those moments or got absurdly lucky when they said they had 10 TotT procs.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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It just seems like everyone wants a 100% HQ macro again for a recipe book called MASTER. If that is what they want, wait until we are lvl 60 in the expansion and you will most likely be able to do so. Right now, you have to actually make decisions based on what you get as you go. To me, that is how crafting should be. It takes time.

I will give you an example that just happened earlier today when my cousin tried to do one himself after me talking him through 5 books. I will edit it into my post.

So he had 8 stacks of IQ 30 durability 2 stacks of CZ and 214 CP, progress was at 761/801.

I made him stop and tell me what he planned to do at this point. What would you do? He was going to use manipulation sh2+htx4. Then finish his synth. This was a very reasonable thing to do as he could obtain 11 stacks. I would not do this. I would have done 2HT at 50 (any ToT would allow me to SH2 after MM2) then done CZ+MM2. I would have had 8-9 stacks 70 dura and 12 CP if no ToT. I would then HT at 50% until 30 dura if no ToT, or SH2 if ToT within the first two HT after mm2 and go to 20 dura. He did it his way and got to 52% quality and finished his synth (he got HQ).

I understand that 50% is scary to some people, but most of the time I would have gotten at least 3 success at 50% out of the 6 50% HT. But, 1 ToT would have bumped me to 80% and extra quality increases over what he got. I am done all my books, and I talked him through most of his and I have only seen 2 goods and 1 excellent on BB out of all of them (I have a stats sheet). It usually takes 5-6 attempts per book (using reclaim). There is no way you can compare 5-6 synths to ATMA.

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Originally Posted by Rath

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I don't think anyone is even asking for macros for something like the master books (Which hasn't even been the case for master I books until you overgeared it)

I don't want macros for current content crafting; It shouldn't be like that. However, it shouldn't also be a messy lottery to this degree. Something like current 4* crafting is fine for this. I mean I agree that it should be based on making decisions based on what you get, but in the context of master II, you're looking at very specific RNG to be favorable with enough TotT procs and sucessful HT/RS to get a minimum of 10 IQ stacks and land your full BB finisher on an excellent to get a 100% (good would only get you to 60-80% depending on your stacks).

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

There's no skill involved

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This is nonsense to be honest.

Currently getting HQ on the tokens and on the 4* craft themselves is skill based.

It's like the difference between 2 BLM's using "the same rotation" but one is doing 250dps and the other doing 400dps. (usually the one doing 250dps will blame RNG too ;D)

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

This is nonsense to be honest.

Currently getting HQ on the tokens and on the 4* craft themselves is skill based.

It's like the difference between 2 BLM's using "the same rotation" but one is doing 250dps and the other doing 400dps. (usually the one doing 250dps will blame RNG too ;D)

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Same Rotation, or "same rotation? Being completely serious here because I get enough CP half the time to get a second MMII in from TotT procs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Same Rotation, or "same rotation? Being completely serious here because I get enough CP half the time to get a second MMII in from TotT procs.

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Like like the BLM dps'ing, there is no fixed rotation, but chances are a lot of people are using the same base rotation, yet yeilding vasty different results, due to "skill". I.e. those situational judgement calls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

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Right. Thats why I'd mention no one uses macros in regards to master book because it's not set in stone. I should've clarified if I mentioned rotation, but these sort of things I do as they appear. On average, my master II crafts don't go beyond 30-35 steps because I can't fit a second MMII (instead using manipulation or nothing at all if it came to it), because in the end, I did not have CP to invest into increasing my durability and be able to have enough to do a BB finisher. I mentioned this a while back, and you (or someone else) straight up said I was doing something wrong if I did not have enough CP.


I can see where you're getting at, and I play bard as dps so I know the context, but I also do this for my 3-4* crafting, espesically for master books that have a huge quality pool. In my example, I only had about 5-6 TotT procs in the entire crafting progress, getting up to 30 or so steps with 7 IQ stacks. Nowhere near enough to get a reasonable HQ % unless I landed on an excellent,