Tanking habits

/nod these tanks/dps should be the only healer in the group and see how interesting it is for speed runs.

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Originally Posted by Ramen

/nod these tanks/dps should be the only healer in the group and see how interesting it is for speed runs.

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I play scholar as well. I find speed runs pretty exhilarating as long as the tank and dps are geared for it. ^^

I main WHM so theres a 99.999999% chance I'm playing healer in pugged parties. I don't usually say or ask anything - I just take whats thrown at me and adapt to the situation - crazy pulls or not. If the tank can't get the jist that it's too much, then tough lesson when we wipe. I'd probably mention "too much x.x", but... I'm a little more of a 'take it as it comes' in regards to pugged parties. If it's a big pull, man up and do your damndest. Not saying it can't be annoying, at times. Responsible big pulls I'm down with. Messy, irresponsible, mindless (such as the example below) big pulls I do mind as annoying.


The thing I DO have a huge gripe with, though, is speed running content that NEEDS explanation - for the SEVERAL newbies in the party... and won't even allow me to explain without running off.
This happened in BCoB Turn 3 with all the bouncing around. I've done the turn before with a properly acting party so I knew what to do, but in this instance there were about 3 or so other people that were new and probably didn't understand the directional bouncing. I wasn't able to explain anything at all because ALL mobs (minus golems) were left untouched. People were left behind or stuck in a bouncing loop with large mobs chasing them to the ends of the earth. I've also seen plenty of mob fall off and amass on the platforms below on top of the already current monsters on that platform. On top of their getting lost via re-directed bounces you have people split because a directional was unwittingly changed while people are going through or killed from the unculled, dragged mob, etc.

Then everyone ran to exit- tanks leaving first thing - and left the mob AT the exit. I ended up biting the dust from being interrupted in my attempts to leave the instance.... and then running all the way back down through the untouched mobs.
The new guys learned nothing (like not changing the directionals, how to determine where to change the direction to (the hoops), and so on).
So dumb.
Irresponsibly run.

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Originally Posted by Zell1226

And honestly you're wrong for thinking this as well, as Ninja and DRG can actually be pretty high AoE DPS in short segments. It's easy to pull 500+ DPS on Ninja when using the correct skills. The problem is most people have the same line of thinking as you, and only kill one at a time because they think they're not good enough for AoE.

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wrong BLM will always be higher at aoe and ninja and DRG will always be lowers. I use the right skills thank you very much. plus think about it even if we do high aoe dps in short segment we can't keep it up long enough to kill the massive amounts of mobs you tanks are pulling

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

wrong BLM will always be higher at aoe and ninja and DRG will always be lowers. I use the right skills thank you very much. plus think about it even if we do high aoe dps in short segment we can't keep it up long enough to kill the massive amounts of mobs you tanks are pulling

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If the other DPS in the party are any good, the mobs will die quickly enough.

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Originally Posted by zoom

To OP, I guess I was affected in one of your DF run last night on Qarn HM.
I try to always be attentive to others during runs, so the first pack is always a test more or less.

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Lie's you didn't ask for a tp regen and you didn't check gear or anything you just ran through the mobs like a raging bull. I said cool mate cos I have spoken to tanks about this and they just ignore me. couple of points for you people.

1. all this nonsense about checking gear and composition doesn't happen in most games tanks just run in
2. If you do tell the tank they should chill out they usually just get annoyed and reply "I know how to tank" or just ignore you.
3. you were the one that pulls trash into the mini boss room. I was so annoyed but I said nothing cos you don't care what stress you put on the dps

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

If the other DPS in the party are any good, the mobs will die quickly enough.

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Look BLM is made with far superior AOE damage than anyone. It's not about skill is about the way the class is made. I've been in hundreds of dungeons no the mob won't die fast enough

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Originally Posted by Dement

Personally, I wish they'd remove some of the mechanics that force you to keep your pull size small. When I enter a dungeon, I check everyone to see what I'm working with and also ask the group if they want big or small pulls. I even adjust my accessories between DPS and Fending accordingly to deal with the size decided. If you have 2 melees, sure keep it small and consistent stream but if you have 2 BLMs and a competent healer, why not go as fast as possible? After running a dungeon for the 200th time, I just want to get in, get everyone their poetics as fast as reasonably possible and get out again to do other things.

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I'm sorry mate tanks don't do this. All you tanks are coming up here explaining the same thing. That you check with the group. Lies. no one checks with the group. I bet they don't even know the group composition until they wipe. in reality they just run into the mobs and hope for the best

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

Look BLM is made with far superior AOE damage than anyone. It's not about skill is about the way the class is made. I've been in hundreds of dungeons no the mob won't die fast enough

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It is true that BLM has superior AoE, but it doesn't mean the other classes are not capable of speed running, perhaps you are the one not capable of handling big pulls, nothing to do with the class.

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

Yea this isn't exactly right. If a DRG can do 400 single target DPS on one mob that is fine. If that same DRG can only do 150 DPS on 1 mob using AOE attacks, then thats bad, BUT it becomes on-par (not accounting for TP) at just 3 mobs. Now when the Tank has like 6+ Mobs, all of a sudden that DRG doing 150 DPS a mob x6 is now dealing 900 DPS,

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Which is exactly your thinking problem. yes the DRG is doing 900DPS but to each of those 6 mobs he is doing 150 dps. Now the rate with which the mobs die will still be that of a DRG doing 150 dps to each of them. which means each of them will die 4 times slower than if the drg single targeted them individually. This is 4 times more up time of the tank getting hit. and assuming they all die at the same time. it would have been faster to take each of them down individually at 400-500 dps than it would to take them down at 150 dps.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Why? Some people do enjoy big pulls, I don't see why mechanics have to punish them.

The problem here isn't just people doing big pulls, it's tanks not being mindful of party composition or gear.



This is false, both monks and ninjas have good AoEs, the problem with their AoEs is the high TP usage, but mobs should be dead before you use the extra TP from invigorate, unless one of the DPS is not buffing up.

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They aren't good enough to kill 8 mobs at the same time. sorry mate

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

They aren't good enough to kill 8 mobs at the same time. sorry mate

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You aren't good enough to kill 8 mobs at the same time, but the job is more than capable of doing it.

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

Those 3 points you made are actually kind of contradictory. reduction.

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They are perfectly fine. if they weren't fine how would I feel them.

1. They are stress full cos it puts a huge responsibility on you to kill that many mobs that your not easily capable off in a short amount of time. hence stress
2. to attempt to do so requires you to spam 3 buttons over and over again. hence boring
3. risky cos it's likely that even with all your efforts you will fail. hence risky

you've just proven my point that this is just a stupid situation to be in.

There are many types of stress my friend. and not all are enjoyable challenge. the kind involved here is not only boring it's annoying. So are you saying SE should make a boss that has a 50% chance of kills the raid at the last 10% cos it's stressfull and there fore fun........please get real

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Originally Posted by Izsha

It's 'boring' to spam aoes? I find it boring to spend 20 min in a dungeon like WP I've been doing for a year when I could be done in 10.

There's nothing inherently wrong with speed runs unless the group can't handle the stuff the tank grabs. Some are better judges of this than others so just communicate with your party. I've played other classes enough to know their aoe capabilities by glancing at their gear and tanked enough to know how to balance my CDs and work with my healer. Not to mention seeing how a 1st medium pull goes to verify for the rest of the dungeon. Not everyone has that experience or knowledge though. Just communicate if you are uncomfortable.

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So your solution is to pull half the dungeon cos your bored? Really?

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Originally Posted by Alukah

You aren't good enough to kill 8 mobs at the same time, but the job is more than capable of doing it.

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Sorry mate you can blame me all you want. but i'm damn good at my job. and what I meant be not good enough was not fast enough. not that they won't survive but for the time wasted it's not worth it.

And sorry again mate. I'm Freaking amazing at nin. Thanks have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

And sorry again mate. I'm Freaking amazing at nin. Thanks have a nice day.

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The character you're posting with doesn't have NIN unlocked.

Why are you so afraid of linking your main with your forum account?

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

Sorry mate you can blame me all you want. but i'm damn good at my job. and what I meant be not good enough was not fast enough. not that they won't survive but for the time wasted it's not worth it.

And sorry again mate. I'm Freaking amazing at nin. Thanks have a nice day.

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You're not doing yourself any favors with this QQ nonsense. At first you maybe were making some decent points that people could get behind but know you just sound like a whiner. I don't get why you think it is so risky as it seems to work for countless people on a regular basis. And don't tell me I'm lying when I say I check gear and party comp. How dare you. You have no idea whether I am or not.

Truth hurts, but the more you post the more I am convinced that the problem is you.

It all depends on the party set up and how the tank gauges the party. If there is good synergy with the melees or the casters he will usually mass pull so long as he feels comfortable with his healer. There have been cases before where I realize that my team is unable to efficiently aoe down mass pulls. Just talk to the tank and tell them you prefer to take it slower.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

So your solution is to pull half the dungeon cos your bored? Really?

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Your missing the point. I've been doin WP since LAST november. The entire dungeon is boring so get it over with. Similarly you say single target rotations are not Boeing but aoe spam is boring. To me single target rotations are boring because I've been doing that for a year too. My drg, mnk, and war rotations are identical as they were since 2.1. It's just wrote muscle memory. Nothing interesting about seeing butchers block one 1 dude or overpower on 10. So just get the dungeon over with to get my tomes and move on in 10 min instead of 20.

I'm glad basic dungeon runs are so mind blowing and interesting for you. They aren't for me.

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Originally Posted by Rain_Art

You should tank then :)

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I already have, tons of times, and I hate speed runs, I set up a macro just for when I tank hard modes saying I won't be speed running, mass pulling.

This much discussion over trash mobs?


There's no reason not to pull large. It's the best way to learn what you can handle as a player; and its a lot of fun. Who cares if the party wipes once. People need to stop taking these silly dungeons so seriously - "OMGuWIPEus!"


Large pulls are entertaining. Making use of every ability you have and just barely surviving. Having an epic HP dance with your healer as they slowly fall behind on heals and then taking the lead to help them catch up. THAT is what its all about. Tnk LB'ing, kiting with Sprint, Hallowed Ground with an HQ Vit Pot at the end, Bloodbath + Circle of Scorning 15 enemies, Shield Bashing every mob, staggering cool downs, Stoneskin spamming, dodging 15 Aoe's / Cleaves, Bulwark while having your back to a wall as "Blocks 32% dmg" appears 300 times on your screen.


If I were forced to pull 3-6 mobs at a time, staring at every Tank cool down gathering dust, my HP bar always over 5k, and a Healer with a full MP bar, I would quit this job instantly.


See you at the next mass pull! (^_^)/

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

snip/

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Whew! Read through this QQ thread from someone too scared to show his real character on the forums.

Thanks Galactimus, you saved me some typing.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

Sorry mate you can blame me all you want. but i'm damn good at my job. and what I meant be not good enough was not fast enough. not that they won't survive but for the time wasted it's not worth it.

And sorry again mate. I'm Freaking amazing at nin. Thanks have a nice day.

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You are a Tank that doesn't like to tank but to DPS instead? Welcome to Eorzea.

There are a few here and there that likes to Tank (can't wait to test the Dark Knight myself) but playing a DPS (healers for some) for me is wayyy less trouble, and like you, fun to play.

Everyone in the party should contribute to its success. No matter what role you decided to fill in.

Funny things is I will start asking if there is any first timers in here, to gauge if we'll be going slow, med, or Leeroy's pace.

We wipe! OMG! We are doomed, I am with noobs for sure, QQ..

Listen up, look at the time left: 75 minutes.

Breathe in, it will pass.

Not happy? Get back to your Tank role and don't do mass pulls.

or: make your own party with FC mates or friends. <--

You PUG? well, it's tough luck.

Humans adapt, so should you.

My guess with all the replies you made here, you have more fun on the forums than in the game.

you said time wasted it's not worth it. (what are you doing on the forums? gogogogo to the next dungeon, time is soo precious!)

Chill out, it's just a Dungeon.

As per me, I prefer standard pulls, you see mobs, you get them, they die, next batch.

Not too fond of mass pulls unless I'm comfy with the dungeon, the Healer will say I can pull more, and you don't check gear and examine everyone (except the glamour that still gives you an idea) lastly, you check your party's Jobs.

Then you adapt.

You are blaming the Tanks on a whole because of a few bad apples that don't care and just want the fast queue.

Stop generalizing please. Since you are a Tank yourself (at least in this profile) you are putting yourself in the same boat.

There are DPS and healers that are are bad and condescend as well.

It's not the role, it's the person behind the screen.

You play a multiplayer game, not a solo one where you control all of them. Randomness will kick in for sure, expect the unexpected, and it's ok, you can wipe.. more than once, until the dungeon is cleared.

Have fun.

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Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

slow, med, or Leeroy's pace.

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Really random, but I like that pace name xD

XD This thread got real ugly real fast.

OP I at first agreed with you. I am not a fan of tanks that just rush in without concern for the rest of the party, I hate speed runs and big pulls, but there have been lots of great points in this thread and it is not fair for you to just blow them off.

I do not main WAR but I do sometimes enjoy the job, I have been asked plenty of times to do big pulls that I was not comfortable with BY DPS AND HEALERS, it is a two sided coin. To say that there are NO tanks that check to see if their party is equipped to handle the pulls is silly.

Also, dude do you even DRG? Our Aoe is fine, I'm offended. No my DRG is not made for Aoe like my BLM or BRD, but good DRG can't plow down a big pull just fine thank you.

Every job kills things faster with big pulls.

Even Monk.

As long as the tank doesn't die, it's fine to pull big.

Pulling big without warning anyone is the only thing that should be frowned upon. I've had the same mindset about dungeons since WP SRs: if you're geared and you want to SR, I'll do it. If you're not geared and you want to SR or you don't want to SR, I'll pull 2 packs and see how it goes from there. There is never any reason to pull 1 pack at a time.

I dislike tanks that don't pull more than one group or mob if the DPS in our group is decently geared. DPS don't need to be super geared to be able to do bigger pulls. You can also do bigger pulls with melee. It's slower than with casters but it's a lot more engaging... at least to me.

I left a group yesterday over it. Wasn't rude to the tank or anything(I barely said one word), but a DPS got snappy with the tank so I left. The tank ignored what everyone said and kept pulling one group or one mob at a time. I'm not interested in getting in the middle of a mad DPS and tank. I'd end up taking the DPSers side and it'd just be one big mess. I'm also splitting my time between FF14 and DA:I so I prefer faster runs.

My rule of thumb when pulling mobs in dungeons :

1. 1 melee + 1 Mage/range dps: Pull 1-2 groups and if dps is sufficient gradually increase mob count while accommodating healer skill level.
2. 2 melee: Pull 1 group and if dps is sufficient gradually increase mob count while accommodating healer skill level.
3. 2 mage/range: Pull 2-3 groups and if dps is sufficient increase mob count while accommodating healer skill level.

Big pulls are always faster if the dps (and healers) know what they are doing.

I have not readed the entire post, neither I have the time to do it, but... Kind of agree with the OP. When I tank I first see the healer and DPS, then I analyze if I should do big pulls, I wouldn't do such with for example two ninjas... I at least require of one BLM to consider it, else, it would be faster and safer just doing it with small pulls (Faster, because monsters die fast and healer perhaps will DPS too, if healer doesn't DPS then I change to DPS gearset).

When I'm with a ninja, so the other side, I feel kinda forced to do a super damage that I don't have... I can barely reach the DPS of an average BLM when doing AoE, and it is not infinite, one pull is 100% optimum damage, the next following pull withing the next two minutes is going to be around a 75% of damage. But well, I kind of don't mind now. Used to see tanks getting two groups all the time in latest dungeons, even if no BLM around.


My nooby tank experience during months have proven that forcing useless-aoe classes to use AoE will only enslow, isntead of make it faster. Actually, in my opinion, only BLM is the class that has infinite perfect AoE all the time it wants. The rest perhaps are awesome for taking a huge group evert 3-4 min, but not all the time. Even in the case of skilled healers..... WHM can't do holy spam infinite and they need to be extra-noob to can do it while keep DPSing.... Scholars are more benefitted by small groups for doing both DPS and heal.... (Healing while doing DPS with a scholar when the tank takes one group is a MUST, else you're lazy)

Tanking is adaptability... There have been cases where healer only spams heal and DPS are average than I even removed Defiance or Shield Oath for dealing the extra damage that they didn't.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

1. it's stressfull
2. it's boring cos your just spaming aoes
3. it's risky cos your likely to wipe

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I'd say
1. It's fun
2. Its not boring when you actually need to pop yer def cool down
3. It's risky because we are warriors of light.. We fight evil!!

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

It's become a habit because our gear so outstrips the dungeon level so much that it's boring for many players to do smaller pulls.

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This only count for high level dungeons. In low level dungeon the gear is only ~ 4 level over the dungeon level.

I usually only pull large crowds when my healer is comfortable with it and my dps can handle aoe. Other than that, I try to keep things small-medium if possible. I ran snowcloak the other day and the healer wanted me to pull large crowds. I didn't want to since we didnt have a BLM or Bard, but since he insisted for several mins., I did. Healer couldn't keep up the heals, and we wiped. At least he finally stayed quiet afterwards...

Want to talk about a bad tanking habit? How about the silent hero who blitzes through the dungeon with out so much as checking the ilvl of his pty, ignores requests to slow down, doesn't wait for buffs, and then gets angry and irate when the party fails then leaves so the pty has to spend another 30 min looking for a new member, or if they are lucky Titan Egi tank until a tank can be found(if they have a smn who is up for the task)

Um. Boring is good. Boring is safe. A Tank who's an adrenaline junkie, who LIKES fighting with his health dropping 50%... 25%... 1%... HEAL'D? Don't trust them. They're insane.

If you want to speed run tell me up front. I'll bow out of the instance and you can get a Tank who'll run it the way you prefer.

I begin every dungeon with the following when tanking:
Do you want: A) Small Pulls, B) Double pulls, C) Suicidal Overconfidence.
Usually the last one entails pulling to (but not inside) the boss' room, with a few exceptions (namely SV and Snowcloak's dragons)
In the event of a tie, I go with the healer's choice.
A good dungeon tank can gauge just what his group can handle and adjust accordingly.

I main tank... When I enter a dungeon, I look at a couple things after greeting the party of course.

1.) Healer HP (a quick idea of how geared they are.)
2.) DPS jobs (Bard / BLM obviously give me more confidence than NIN / MNK)

I typically start with a double pull to see how the healer reacts... If I see them keeping me in good health and even managing to DPS some... I know I have a comfortable strong healer... I can get a little crazy. If they seem less comfortable or just plain lazy, double pulls it is until more is requested.

Simply put tanks are expected to be efficient. At least that's how I see it... we should lead the raid to clear as quickly as the party is comfortable.

If you're a tank and you expect every DF to be comfortable with full pulls, you're doing it wrong. However if you're NOT a tank you should expect your tank to push your party near it's comfortable limits.

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Originally Posted by Maduro

I can't say anything about NIN because I haven't played it yet, but I slightly disagree on MNK, just for the GL stacks. If you lose your GL stacks between pulls, it lowers your DPS, so technically it would be better to have all of the mobs lined up and ready to punch.

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B4B + PB, spam dat rockbreaker! XD

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Why? Some people do enjoy big pulls, I don't see why mechanics have to punish them.

The problem here isn't just people doing big pulls, it's tanks not being mindful of party composition or gear.

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When I'm running Expert on my SCH alt, if I'm not pushed I get bored XD Dungeons are easy, big pulls add a little bit of challenge to them which keeps me sharp as a healer. Same when I'm on main and either tanking or DPS in dungeons. Also enjoy trying to shave off a bit of time on each run.

But on topic, I've seen tanks mass pull everything with me on main (MNK) another DPS with just over 3k HP and healer with around 3k hp, then wonder why it didnt go the same as when they had HA BLM in as their last run.

But, if you expect people to be stupid you will never be surprised XD

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

Also, when some impatient healer or dps keeps asking me to pull more I do the opposite. I know that if the party wipes it will be my fault for pulling more than what we can swallow, so I'm the one that decides the pace. If they don't like it they're welcome to come to the roulette as tanks :P

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Yep! Then if they run ahead and grab more, I let em keep them too. They pull it, they tank it! Also, every time Ive been in a party and someone complains that tank going too slow (I don't care, prefer tank to go pace they comfortable with, albeit as said in a previous post I do get bored if I'm not being pushed) It has always been a lallafail player. Not saying all Lalafail players are impatient, just that all impatient players seem to gravitate to that race.

There is stupid of every class in the game.
As a tank, if I feel it's more efficient to mass pull given the group composition/gear, then mass pull it'll be.
However, I've had groups request that I mass pull, even when their gear hinted at no; but they still preferred that, so... whatever my group wants, that's what goes.
You could just speak out.
I notice a lot of people don't speak out due to fear of either being booted or made fun of. Maybe that's what this thread should be about, instead of generalizing about a specific role that, oh so many people play.

My first time running through snowcloak the tank pulled the entire first room up to the snow blocking the path despite having me being a monk and the other dps being a dragoon. Was the best experience I've had in snowcloak as a monk, and I wish more tanks realized that melee can in fact aoe. I don't bother telling random tanks to pull more, but I'm quick to show my disgust with any tank I know trying to slow pull a dungeon because I'm on my monk :(

I play BLM. If I don't get 3+ mobs to aoe per pull, I get bored.