Dragoons feeling left out?

How can this job still isn't good enough after getting buffed every patches?

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Originally Posted by LunarCain

you...are...PATHETIC and you are encouraging loldrg when you really cant learn that is one of the useful Dragoon to help in dmg!!

Hmm. Dot is useless. ok lets delete SUMMONER!!!

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No my main isnt dragoon anymore..

And its quiet a big difference if you have 3 DoTs à 30-40 potency and longer duration... than a DoT with 30 potency that lasts 20s.
It adds up for summoner.


And in my opinion a Damage over time attack does not fit to Dragoon as well. Dragoon should be a class to directly damage the target with massive damage.

So i just think that Chaos Thrust would be much more great if i have the chance of multiple hits and more "burst" damage within a second than slowly over time. Especially in PVP.

I like the idea of the old chaos thrust much more:
Dat Chaos Thrust in 1.0. :

Chaos Thrust [Multiple Hits] in the Old Version of FFXIV [Youtube]


it caused MULTIPLE hits ... instead of a DoT..

my suggestion:
Chaos Thrust :

damage : 100 dmg (1 hit)
combo: chance of multiple hits (3-6) à 100 Dmg

for more "burst" damage... instead of damage over time.. which doesnt fit to dragoon role anyways.
would be much nicer in my opinion..


i think they just transformed that skill into a DoT abillity.. because of the combat reformation. Chaos Thrust has no re-use timer anymore.. but which it had in 1.0. which means it could be spammed.. if chaos thrust would do more direct damage than the other skill chain... it would just spammed constantly. thats why they made a DoT abillity out of it.. so that it is just used when the DoT effect is over..


Well but thats also the reason why i dont play dragoon anymore. the epicness of 1.0. is just totally gone. if you had played dragoon in 1.0. you will feel how weak it feels in comparison. while my black mage still can do big burst direct damage.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

I like the idea of the old chaos thrust much more:
Dat Chaos Thrust in 1.0. :

Chaos Thrust [Multiple Hits] in the Old Version of FFXIV [Youtube]

Well but thats also the reason why i dont play dragoon anymore. the epicness of 1.0. is just totally gone. if you had played dragoon in 1.0. you will feel how weak it feels in comparison. while my black mage still can do big burst direct damage.

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God i couldn't agree with this more, i desperately miss what DRG was in 1.0, not 1.0's combat system itself but how DRG's combos worked and the feeling of impact behind many of the abilities.

Even the old RoT felt much more damaging than it's current rendition.

2.0 DRG feels like a shadow of it's former self in comparison, and I'm sure there are quite a few Monks out there as well that miss Simian Thrash as well.

Many Dragoons feel that they are left out, I thought so at first too. Especially in comparsion to st-monk. After getting better as a dragoon, I realised this was a mistake on my part. Good Monks still out-dps me, but only for 5%. Maybe 10% if the monk is really good. And I see myself more as a casual dragoon. I have seen dragoons that do insane amount of damage, there is alot of potential here. No offend but maybe you people just need more time with your class. Still, if they would leave out the positioning of HT in my opinion this would help alot.
As for ninjas dying: Since yesterday I´m lvl 50 ninja (thank you no fates anymore -.-). I´m not used to play it yet and I have to focus on my rotations. This made me die a few times in Aurum Vale at the second boss, simply because I wasn´t focused on his mechanics. What I want to say is, give the ninjas time to grow comfortable with their class and they will stop dying. As dragoon I don´t have to focus on my rotation anymore. As ninja I do.

Lets see DRG have 3 weak links that need to be FIXED to make it at least on par with MNK such as :

1. Add potency bonus on True Thrust, Vorpal thrust, Full Thrust preferably from flank - NOT YET

2. Reduce Jump, Spineshatter Dive, Dragonfire Dive cd to 60s and increase their potency by 50-100% - NOT YET

3. Remove jump animation lock - FIXED

Don't think like that. It is true that. In my opinion and nooby experience using both dragoon and ninja, a maxed out ninja can outDPS a dragoon, but that's not a meaning for exclude it from endgame content....

Dragoon AoE stills better than ninja, and can get buffed by ninja's skill. (So dragoon + ninja is a good combo). Dragoon + Bard is another good combo, dragoon just have too many party combinations to work with. A good dragon + good bard will still better option than a good ninja...

Also, it is easier to find good dragoons than good ninjas, so...

As addition, I'm an all-arounder, or perhaps, was... (I consider NIN my main already). I have played as all melee and used them many times, same geared with their zenith and soldiery gear and I could say I know very well how to maintain the heavy thrust, disembowel + chaos and phelotomize. Having to say when I start the combo I procure to have blood for blood and internal release, especially when putting DoT to the mobs...

My opinion about the melee classes is:

--- NIN ---

Single Target: Best
AoE: Good (And you really need to do a few trickies for this, for obvious reasons I won't say my nooby way to use ninja, discover your own path of the ninja, don't wait for someone to put rotations and then copy, that'd be poor and sad.)
Difficulty: Hardest

--- DRG ---

Single Target: Very Good
AoE: Very Good (Easy, blood for blood, internal release, heavy thrust + combo, dragonfire dive, spam the AoE that costs 160 TP and hits only in front, use Invigorate when needed)
Difficulty: Hard

--- MNK ---

Single Target: Very Good
AoE: Very Good (Easy, internal release, blood for blood, perfect balance after you have at least twin snakes activated and three stacks of greased lightning, or two if a BLM is rushing flares. Then just rock breacker spam)
Difficulty: Hard


All the melee classes are difficult to use and have their own thingies... MNK has to do many hits by flanks and side and dodge while maintaining greased lightning but their DoT are very easy to place well. DRG can lose a lot of damage if the tank moves in the wrong moments and you either fail impulsive drive or heavy thrust, having to repeat and repeat until obtaining the buffs... A NIN has to deal with many coldowns and have a good knowledge of ninjutsu as well as maintaining all dot and defense down, you really need to pay attention to many things with this class, believe me. (That's why you'll see a lot of them eating AoE, I was one of those when yet realizing how to use it nooby-right)

To say, MNK can do a very useful life-saver skill, Mantra, that can save the party in the worst moments, and it also buffs a lot your own heal, you can also have some nice defenses skills so... It can survive way more than NIN (And you can have 10% resistance with fists of earth... Examples where I use it... Tamtara hard final boss when the attack comes after the adds, or Titan's earthern fury, etc.)

DRG has a lot of defense too (Not the same with magical though..) and can have good defenses too. I use blood for blood with all my melee classes but at least in DRG it is more than accceptable the risk (Much more attack than damage taken). Elusive Jump is easier to use than ninja's teleport skill. (By the time you select a place to teleport you are already hit). Disembowel is super when having one bard, it is extreme super when having more than two...I went to some battles with my DRG just because there were two or three BRD.



USE THE MELEE YOU FEEL YOU DO YOUR BEST WITH AND OBTAIN THE BEST RESULTS.... BECAUSE IT WILL BE THE ONE YOU'LL DO THE BEST. A MELEE WILL OFTEN EXCEL AGAINST ONE TARGET, AND SO FAR ONLY BLM WILL CLEARLY OUTDPS YOU IN AREA.

Bad melee give bad fame to them, they are really difficult to use after all (I play with gamepad and I can't imagine how the hell there could be melees playing with keyboard and mouse, they must be either heroes or lolDRGs). If you want to do easy DPS and a very good one then take BLM just in case melee are not for you.

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Originally Posted by YokeM

As for ninjas dying: Since yesterday I´m lvl 50 ninja (thank you no fates anymore -.-). I´m not used to play it yet and I have to focus on my rotations. This made me die a few times in Aurum Vale at the second boss, simply because I wasn´t focused on his mechanics. What I want to say is, give the ninjas time to grow comfortable with their class and they will stop dying. As dragoon I don´t have to focus on my rotation anymore. As ninja I do.

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This is exactly the problem, people are trying to faceroll their way to 50 with FATE spamming and then trying to learn how to play. It was sad and scary how I was undergeared, underleveled, and joining boss FATEs 10% in at Costa and still pulling hate from whoever had lead. I'm level 43 now and I've already seen the lolNINs in Stone Vigil - no mutilate, no dancing edge, using katon on a single mob, and so on.

Ninja has a pretty steep learning curve, and if you haven't been practicing good rotations yet, you're in for a lot of pain at 50.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Sorry, had to cut the rest out duo to limitations.

Ninja has a pretty steep learning curve, and if you haven't been practicing good rotations yet, you're in for a lot of pain at 50.

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Well, this is my opinion: I like to have my class at 50 before I do any deep thinking of what rotation to use. I have to be able to analyse every skill (animation, cd etc.) before I give a deeper thinking to rotations. As I said, this is personal taste but as I leveld my dragoon (which was my first class) for a long part I thought that true thrust combo is the superior one. Simply because I was using it since early in the game. I was comfortable with it so I didn´t want to change it.

Here comes the casual-part of my playstyle: If I´m on top of the penis-meter, I´m on top. If not, then not. It feels good to be the best performing dd, but I don´t necessarily need this for a good gaming experience.

At the end of the day the balance between the melee classes is pretty decent. Be glad this isn't FFXI where 1-2 DPS classes are stupid OP, one of them (MNK) to the point they tank encounters AND push the highest damage. It's a shining example of where 1.0 would have went if Tanaka had stayed in charge. You can blame him for the lolDRG stigma since he refused to fix DRG in FFXI after the Pentaspam nerf.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

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We all know how boring fate spamming is at this point so most people probably just autoattack a couple mobs and go afk or hide somewhere once they did enough for gold contribution. Getting top threat in fate grind just means you're the most tryhard in the zone and didn't doze off yet :P

For dungeons though, there's no excuse for not even trying. People who don't bother to learn and practice rotation for one class/job tends to be just as bad with any other role.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

Lets see DRG have 3 weak links that need to be FIXED to make it at least on par with MNK such as :

1. Add potency bonus on True Thrust, Vorpal thrust, Full Thrust preferably from flank - NOT YET

2. Reduce Jump, Spineshatter Dive, Dragonfire Dive cd to 60s and increase their potency by 50-100% - NOT YET

3. Remove jump animation lock - FIXED

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Yeah SE, get right on "reducing" that 40 second Jump CD to a 60 second Jump CD.

The coil group I'm in has been going for a year now and we have a dragoon in the group. Personally, I take the person with the best attitude, most experience, and pulls good dps in context with the group. At least for me, job doesn't matter so long as you know your job well. That's just me though.

Well sadly, fights like T11 are very unforgiving for DRG. Lots of magic damage, times where you have to dodge and cannot make your rear/flank attacks. For this reason Ninja and Monk are preferred over DRG. Not to mention a good ninja can potentially do more damage than a monk (they have almost no positional requirements).

For this reason, if you have a person who is a capable melee and can monk or ninja instead of drg, you have almost no reason to bring drg. (The buff for bard isn't enough to offset this as it doesn't bridge the dps gap of bringing a monk or ninja.)


In other words drg still needs something else to bring to the table until then it is the weakest melee dps atm. :/

If a fight has a rear cone attack it's just a matter of learning when it's safe to hit Impulse Drive. Disembowel and CT have no requirement. A Rear cone is also a very good opportunity to refresh Heavy Thrust. MNKs don't lose their combo if they aren't in position but they do lose DPS by not receiving the flank/rear bonus. If it's a radial AoE that is larger than melee range that's just a reason to properly manage Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dive. You can be back in swinging while the MNK and NIN are still running back into melee range. Basically a DRG may not be the melee DPS that can walk into a fight blind and manage their output, but they have all the tools to keep up once they know the mechanics and timing.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

If a fight has a rear cone attack it's just a matter of learning when it's safe to hit Impulse Drive. Disembowel and CT have no requirement.

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Until the mechanic happens that requires you to have a head facing you and you can't impulse D;

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

This is exactly the problem, people are trying to faceroll their way to 50 with FATE spamming and then trying to learn how to play. It was sad and scary how I was undergeared, underleveled, and joining boss FATEs 10% in at Costa and still pulling hate from whoever had lead. I'm level 43 now and I've already seen the lolNINs in Stone Vigil - no mutilate, no dancing edge, using katon on a single mob, and so on.

Ninja has a pretty steep learning curve, and if you haven't been practicing good rotations yet, you're in for a lot of pain at 50.

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There's not really a "problem" leveling with FATEs, not when you can practice your rotation when fighting "boss" FATE mobs. Every time I get a new skill, I think immediately where they fit in my (yet) unfinished rotation and practice it on a mob the first chance I get.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Until the mechanic happens that requires you to have a head facing you and you can't impulse D;

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Does that happen in T11? They haven't used that mechanic since Demon Wall. If you're forced in front of the mob for a short time then you ID right before it even if your CT/Disembowel may not be off the monster yet, and reapply Heavy Thrust as you move in front if you're restricted from flanking during that time as well (even Demon Wall didn't stop you flanking though). If running back through the monster briefly is an option you can also do that. I've ran THROUGH Titan to apply Impulse Drive during a Landslide before (Usually the opening Landslide of the fight).

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

...
Ninja has a pretty steep learning curve, and if you haven't been practicing good rotations yet, you're in for a lot of pain at 50.

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Ninja isn't really that steep as everyone keeps saying it is when you figure out the pattern behind mudras (Only the last sign matters and you don't do any repeats...), nor are their rotations/uptime any much different than those of a monk (demolish:ToD:DK/SF:mut:DE...and DE being a nonfactor if you have a warrior).

I mean sure it's different, but even when you're doing FATEs its plenty of time to put 2 and 2 together to figure out what your combos are, what your DoTs are, and what your priority should be. The only thing that would take time for a second look is the mudra thing and then it ends up not being complicated as it seems.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

Does that happen in T11? They haven't used that mechanic since Demon Wall. If you're forced in front of the mob for a short time then you ID right before it even if your CT/Disembowel may not be off the monster yet, and reapply Heavy Thrust as you move in front if you're restricted from flanking during that time as well (even Demon Wall didn't stop you flanking though). If running back through the monster briefly is an option you can also do that. I've ran THROUGH Titan to apply Impulse Drive during a Landslide before (Usually the opening Landslide of the fight).

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They did a lot of mechanics to screw over drg in t11. Can't run through boss, you get debuff very nasty one. You get tethered to a person, so you can't go too far or death. You also have to dodge mechanic at the same. Finally most of the damage is magical.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

They did a lot of mechanics to screw over drg in t11. Can't run through boss, you get debuff very nasty one. You get tethered to a person, so you can't go too far or death. You also have to dodge mechanic at the same. Finally most of the damage is magical.

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Tethers are a bane to ALL melee since ranged DPS/heals seem to be allergic to stacking in melee range even if there's no radial AoE damage. It have a constant aura that debuffs you if you run through? Seems weird.

Even though I have tried other classes, for me, being a Dragoon comes naturally to me. In addition to that, I have actually had some players who have come with me on various challenges, be inspired to become Dragoons themselves because they get to see first hand what we are capable of.

But on a practicality standpoint, whenever I go do a dungeon or trial, tanks still tell me that they appreciate having a Dragoon because we can deal more physical damage than they can and it allows them to focus on keeping the enemy fixated on themselves. Plus, in Solo Tank runs in the Bahamut Coils, being Dragoon in place of the off tank, can result in getting the victory more efficiently.

So if nothing else, if you need a reason to continue to be a Dragoon, it is because our high damage and DPS goes a long way to getting the job done where it matters the most.

I would say that if you have Bards in your party take DRG if not take NIN.

It's primarily a baseless reputation stemming from a limited understanding of the game mechanics and a stigma that's lasted since FFXI's days, and are ultimately irrelevant when it actually comes down to pass/fail of ANY dungeon in this game, no matter how difficult.

So it's a min-max debate with little practical trials to run with, and the players who try to make that sort of distinction between classes are players you don't want to play with. Put bluntly, the highest of the elite? They don't care about classes so much as they care about execution, personality, and individual mechanical skill. Not a single run has failed a DPS check simply because they brought a Dragoon along - gear being equivalent.

personally i will more change the monk for ninja, if the ninja is good. instead to take out the drg.

People very much exagerate the gap of how much more damage Monk does then drg.
Now with Ninja however i think it will be different, even see Ninja being on par or do more dmg then Monk.
Of course more testing by players needs to be done, just an observation when running with other people.
But on the main topic, i was not even aware drg got a buff, i guess i missed the memo, lol
I know they "sort of" fixed jumps.

skill > gear > job

/thread

bump bump .

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Originally Posted by TimelessShine

Jump Jump .

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fixed ;)

/10char

DRGs do less damage than MNKs and have less utility than NINs, and aren't actually any more survivable in spite of higher HP due to pitiable magic resistance. Their only real purpose from a group minmax perspective is to enable a solo tank-DRG-BRD-BRD-BLM/SMN setup, which isn't viable in all encounters due to the need for a second tank. Essentially, NIN has made DRG a niche case at best.

And, DRG is the only melee DPS that doesn't stack well. Two NINs (or NIN/WAR) can put one on slash debuff duty while the other uses only their highest potency combo sets, and two MNKs can have one on Dragon Kick duty so the other gets to use higher potency combo strings. DRGs, on the other hand, are forced to overlap Disembowels because Chaos Thrust is their highest net potency attack.

On top of this, the old argument of "Burst vs. Sustain" for DRG/MNK is no longer relevant, because NIN offers one of the best DPS burst cases available by opening burn phases with Trick Attack's partywide 10% damage debuff as well as the (potentially-auto-critting) off-GCD two-step ninjutsu nukes. This only gets better as you add more NINs to a party to extend the TA debuff. Oh, and did I mention that NIN also plays well with BRD, because Ninjutsu attacks are considered magic damage, and their highest potency attack is Raiton?

Now, is DRG viable? In almost all cases that aren't extreme bleeding edge meta raiding, yes. But the release of NIN shows us that - once again - no matter how much you 'fix' the animation lock on Jump, Dragoon's numbers are just plain undertuned, and its skill design, while fun and interesting to play, is prohibitive without benefit.

let's wait to see what they will add with the 3.0 before jump to the gun. it's in 6-7 month.

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Originally Posted by RedAntares

I would say that if you have Bards in your party take DRG if not take NIN.

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Why not both? (in 8-man content)?

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Why not both? (in 8-man content)?

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That would the perfect setup I think, add a Monk and you have mantras too. :D

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Originally Posted by LunarCain

you...are...PATHETIC and you are encouraging loldrg when you really cant learn that is one of the useful Dragoon to help in dmg!!

Hmm. Dot is useless. ok lets delete SUMMONER!!!

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He has a point though. 1.0's chaos thrust is leaps and bounds better than ARR's

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I think people have 'lolDrg' ingrained into their brains at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ulathskullsplitter

I'm so sick of this loldrg stereotype and it doesn't help when SE themselves help perpetuate it in their videos.

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Stereotypes normally get accepted into widespread thought patterns because they are true to an extent.

Before 2.4 I grinded out my Nexus and there was a 4hr window (2 consecutive) of Titan HM. In that time I did about 45-50 runs, and in every single one of them that had a dragoon, the dragoon died. This is not an exaggeration, there was no single dragoon that lived throughout the entire fight. I don't know if those players just didn't care about the large circles underneath their feet, or if they were trying to squeeze out another move to maintain DPS and missed their chance to dodge....either way it happened every time.

And then just a few days ago, I was farming a Levi EX mount with some raid members (and got it!!!) We went in as 2 tanks 1 heal and me as the only DPS, and DF'ed the remaining 4 ppl for the chance of extra soldiery (which we also got a lot of) and I encountered the same DRG 3 times in a row. He was amazing. For 2/3 of those runs him and I were the only DPS remaining alive when we got the kill, and the 2nd and 3rd time I saw him in DF I was very happy he got thrown into our group. His DPS was spot on, he knew how to dodge and maintain it, and most of all he never died once.

The problem is, it is far more common to run into Derpgoons, than it is to run into Dragoons. There is no reason to feel personally attacked when people laugh at Dragoons if you are one of the good ones. DRG's seem to fail harder than other DPS in general, but a really good DRG is a very potent ally. A good DRG would never be denied from my static....if we actually needed anything in our static anyway :D

All you can control, is to be the exception rather than the rule. Don't be one of the dragoons that sounds like a disgruntled worker....





Always askin for a raise. ;)

Yeah I can see why DRGs are feeling left out since they really don't have too much utility compared to NIN or MNK. DRGs dont have increased movement speed to help them dodge. They only have a buff that'll help BRDs whereas NIN can help everyone.

And having low magic def when most aoes are magic doesn't help.

You do know then 3.0 that dragoons are probably going to get some major buffs since they are big figures in the main storyline and the main character is now a dragoon. DRG will probably get call wyvern as one of the new abilities in Heavens fall making them all that much stronger.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

You do know then 3.0 that dragoons are probably going to get some major buffs since they are big figures in the main storyline and the main character is now a dragoon. DRG will probably get call wyvern as one of the new abilities in Heavens fall making them all that much stronger.

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Okay woulden;t that break the lore since the Ishgardians clearly hate dragons?

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Okay woulden;t that break the lore since the Ishgardians clearly hate dragons?

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yup , ishgard is on battle with dragons , and SE said that DRG wont get pets EVER.

Thank god.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

yup , ishgard is on battle with dragons , and SE said that DRG wont get pets EVER.

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They also said Warrior was fine and needed no changes whatsoever as the developers had no issues using them to clear all content at the time.

But for DRG specifically Yoshida did talk about the possibility of Dragoon having a dragon come down to perform attacks with them, also stop using lore as an excuse for why things "can't" work, the lore is hardly finished for the game and things change as we go through the story

Things that were thought to be impossible become possible and alliances can be forged were there were none prior, even the way we view primals was redefined by Shiva in 2.4 and will continue to do so with 3.0 if what Yoshida has said so far is true.