Challenging 4-Man Content Please

You can't just keep lumping old content that has become easy due to higher gear as easy content. Coil 1, when it first came out was pretty much exclusively for the hard core. Its like I already said they have a mix of easy and hard content. 4 man content will never be hard because it relies on far fewer people thus less chances to make mistakes.

1st Coil & 2nd Coil are essentially just two 8-man Dungeons.

Hardcores get SOOO much less than Casuals, it's not even funny.

And honestly, it wouldn't be that hard to implement Extreme-Dungeons.

Ilvl Sync to Minimum & add mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Toodles

1st Coil & 2nd Coil are essentially just two 8-man Dungeons.

Hardcores get SOOO much less than Casuals, it's not even funny.

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Only that a lot more work and mechanics is put into coil bosses vs dungeon bosses which have very simple mechanics (don't stand in the stuff on ground and tank and spank for the most part)

At least it gives me a reason to use Selene because they aren't healing intensive, lol.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

You can't just keep lumping old content that has become easy due to higher gear as easy content.

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Point missed. Casual players have 11 dungeons, 2 raids and 3 watered down raids to catch up if the new dungeons require a high ilvl to enter (say i95. That can easily be reached by just doing Hunts).

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Its like I already said they have a mix of easy and hard content. 4 man content will never be hard because it relies on far fewer people thus less chances to make mistakes.

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2.0 Amdapor Keep (Demon Wall) and 2.1 Pharos Sirius (overall) say hi. Maybe Copperbell Mines, too. Some of the bosses in 2.2 and 2.3 did not have any interesting mechanics to them at all, nor punished players for one reason or another (PS punished players for trying to zerg. Amdapor Keep punished players for not being geared. Copperbell punished players for not paying attention).

• Brayflox: Ignore adds on first boss and zerg. Ignore adds on second boss and zerg. Quit dungeon and repeat OR beat final boss, which actually had mechanics that punished players.

• Halatali: Zerg first boss, press button, Manawall, repeat. Zerg second boss, blind self, kill eye, repeat. Zerg gladiators, zerg Lalafell, press button to unfreeze party members, repeat. Kill Kirin.

• Tam-Tara: Stand behind first boss, zerg. Have boss face away from Lalafell, zerg boss, DPS run into orbs, repeat. Zerg Avere, kill adds, repeat.

• Hullbreaker Isle: Zerg first boss, maybe kill adds, activate banana, repeat. Zerg second boss, get in bubbles, repeat. Kill tentacles, jump to new island to drop whirlpool, repeat.

2.1 (this includes Labyrinth of the Ancients as well. Even the "trash mobs" punished players), Lost City of Amdapor and Stone Vigil are currently the only patch dungeons that have all three bosses with certain mechanics to them that can punish players in one way or another (not all, but most).

Just to add, Fresh 50 players, or anyone who stopped playing before finishing 2.3's storyline, will need to do 2.4's storyline to unlock Snowcloak (and probably Expert Roulette), as Snowcloak is going to be the requirement to unlock Shiva HM... really unsure what this means for the dungeons difficulty, though.

I didn't find either of those you mentioned hard. I play on a legacy server most of my FC had all the jobs to 50 when 2.0 came out. When we finished the main story quest to unlock the dungeons 2 days after 2.0 was out. FC group ran AK all day. We did WP once but then found that AK was better due to it giving more points.

In AK demon wall usually died before the bugs even came out. If you found demon wall hard it was because there were a lot of people who only play FFXI and never any kind of action oriented game couldn't understand not to stand in the black stuff and get in the center for the push back but it was a very simple pattern to follow but the masses can fail. Then someone found out about speed runs and how you could just skip the trash which let you spam the dungeon in 10 min. We had almost all our jobs in full darklight before SE nerfed speed runs.

Did PS with a FC group on the first day it was out didn't find it particularly hard either but it took 30 min to do which was a lot longer then other dungeons and thus not worth the time for same rewards. SE basically doesn't give you a reason to touch longer dungeons as long as they offer the same rewards.

In 2.2 brayfox because the dungeon people spammed for myth because it took the shortest amount of time to finish.

They weren't hard but many people loved them b/c it's the closest we got... and it was taken away from us!!!

I want hard 4-man content so badly... especially if 24-man content is going to stay a joke as well.

@Nestama
I agree with u a 100%

@Zumi
U can not only count the New content as u said. The old content is still there and besides that, the "hard" content from the patches before becomes easy. There is plenty of stuff in theory. But practically even for the casuals its useless, because most of them are between ilvl 100-110, too. Even they are bored because they are overgeared. At least the ones i know.

SE needs to stop making Old gear useless. Its a shame, that if u become lvl 50 these days, u can almost skip ilvl 60, 70, 80 completely. They can work Right away ilvl 100-110 and in the meantime they get ilvl 90 stuff. This shortens the game extremly. They need to think more about the minimum ilvl a dungeon needs to be allowed to enter. The fact that u can earn seals much faster than a year ago is enough for New players to catch up imho.

Im not saying make everything harder, game is to easy. But it needs to balanced out more. It needs more of a lvling curve instead of jumps.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

I for one would like to see 4-man dungeons on the difficulty level of Coil that are part of endgame progression with it's difficulty and loot. Put in accessories or upgrade items in those dungeons but with the kicker that they aren't completely spammable like current 4-mans. Either a short dungeon lockout (6 hrs) or entry items that need to be earned to enter them.

And I honestly never found old AK or Pharos all that difficult. They were really straightforward.

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If they did, all we would see is posts on forums "demanding" it to be nerfed, or a "story mode" added XD

The biggest issue is the low Ilevel of new hard mode dungeons. So far they have been much lower than the current average ilvl. Im fully expecting 2.4 to be at most ilvl 90 when most of my fc who have been playing for 6 months are ilvl 100 plus. The only time we had a bit of difficulty was tam Tara on the last boss before we worked out the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

Why stop at 4? I call for challenging 72 man content. Think front lines but with a PVE twist.

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That actually sounds amzaing, but i can see it being a pin in duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

You have to look at current content not content that gets invalidated. More specifically 2.4 content because all previous content is old doesn't compare to the new stuff.

Casuals get: 3 dungeons + Shiva HM
hardcore get: Shiva EX + Final Coil (4-5 turns)

So you see its about an even amount of content.

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Not at all. As mentioned before, Coil counts as one dungeon, especially with lockouts. EX Primals aren't hardcore either. Those are probably the closest thing we have between casual and hardcore, and that's only 1 primal per patch (while the previous one becomes EZ Echo Mode).

Also, it is not an even amount of content because those 3 dungeons are dungeons we are doing on an almost daily basis in order to cap tomes. Those 3 dungeons are done more than anything else introduced in a major patch.

"You have to look at current content not content that gets invalidated. More specifically 2.4 content because all previous content is old doesn't compare to the new stuff."

It's not even content that gets "invalidated", new dungeons are basically already invalidated by that definition due to their required ilv disparity with the current ilv that tomes give you. Older dungeons are still relevant btw, just check your Hard Mode roulette.

Right now, there is not a single dungeon with 4 people that is challenging. If you want a challenge, you gotta go with 8, and 7 other people you enjoy playing with are not always on. I'd love to get 3 friends together within seconds and run challenging stuff for daily roulettes, instead of the facerolls that exist now. Hell, I'd settle for a "modifier" that would let you optionally up the challenge on 4 person dungeons.

I have mentioned this before in other threads, but it's silly of SE to only release one dungeon every other major patch that is the only place tuned for the gear that current tomes reward; that is extremely unbalanced. Right now, SE is saying "let us give you new gear that is tuned for one dungeon, and makes the majority of everything else faceroll time", and that's no fun. There's absolutely no feeling of danger in most of this game's content, it's almost like playing an old school game on God Mode on.

But practically even for the casuals its useless - That's why Zumi is doing well by excluding them, old content is old for everyone, the gear progression in this game makes it so only one thing matters, for casuals in 2.2 it was soldiery (the dungeons themselves didn't matter, only the currency) in 2.3 ST, 2.4 will be currency again and 2.5 it will be WoD.

For raiders? Everything listed AND coil, because let's not forget that everyone ran/runs these dungeons and all CT iterations, since some BiS pieces are always spread out outside of coil.

Though I do agree with Nestama that we need more middle ground content.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

[I]But practically even for the casuals its useless - That's why Zumi is doing well by excluding them, old content is old for everyone, the gear progression in this game makes it so only one thing matters, for casuals in 2.2 it was soldiery (the dungeons themselves didn't matter, only the currency) in 2.3 ST, 2.4 will be currency again and 2.5 it will be WoD.

For raiders? Everything listed AND coil, because let's not forget that everyone ran/runs these dungeons and all CT iterations, since some BiS pieces are always spread out outside of coil.

Though I do agree with Nestama that we need more middle ground content.

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Sol is not the only currency that matters, though. Look at the Atma-Animus weapon process and all the Myth that you need. ST won't be relevant in 2.4 either. I know I'm gonna have a field day with it in order to gear up more alts, as well as running what will become the new Hard Mode roulettes to earn more Sol.

Your second paragraph is also a bit misleading. Yes, it is everything and Coil, but what is the only content that is challenging and also tuned to the current iLv? Only Coil. Even Ramuh, the latest Primal, is not tuned for 100-110. Are the arbiters the bane of most Ramuh groups? Yeah, but look at how many people multi-dot them, not many, and that is what will get you through that phase. I see people on my server requiring minimum ilv 100 for Ramuh groups and get destroyed by arbiters. It's not a matter of iLv, but rather properly dealing with 4 ads and being smart with your DoT usage. Ilv 120 won't get you through Ramuh if you cannot do that.

My main point is that if SE keeps releasing better gear, but nearly not enough content that is tuned for said gear level, and then makes the main way (the 3 current dungeons) of obtaining tokens a total joke compared to the ilv you can obtain by trading said tokens.

FFXIV have huge issues ATM

All 4 man content its TOO easy and mostly obsolete cuz drops garbage (ilv 55-70 items) and the "more challeging" ones (Pharos for example) also drop less tomestones.

New dung are really short and easy.

New updates are just the same Sht over and over again (more "vertical progresion" and gear treadmill)

Pre nerf AK and Pharos was really fun

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Originally Posted by Odett

Sol is not the only currency that matters, though. Look at the Atma-Animus weapon process and all the Myth that you need. ST won't be relevant in 2.4 either. I know I'm gonna have a field day with it in order to gear up more alts, as well as running what will become the new Hard Mode roulettes to earn more Sol.

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Soldiery, Myth, still doesn't invalidate my point, people do them for currency. Also I listed ST as 2.3, not 2.4.

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Your second paragraph is also a bit misleading. Yes, it is everything and Coil, but what is the only content that is challenging and also tuned to the current iLv? Only Coil. Even Ramuh, the latest Primal, is not tuned for 100-110. Are the arbiters the bane of most Ramuh groups? Yeah, but look at how many people multi-dot them, not many, and that is what will get you through that phase. I see people on my server requiring minimum ilv 100 for Ramuh groups and get destroyed by arbiters. It's not a matter of iLv, but rather properly dealing with 4 ads and being smart with your DoT usage. Ilv 120 won't get you through Ramuh if you cannot do that.

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No it's not misleading, low-end content is meant for everyone, while high-end content is specialized for hardcore, anyone seeking BiS will have to run through all of it. Saying "they have so much content and we only have coil" is more misleading.

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My main point is that if SE keeps releasing better gear, but nearly not enough content that is tuned for said gear level, and then makes the main way (the 3 current dungeons) of obtaining tokens a total joke compared to the ilv you can obtain by trading said tokens.

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I'm not disagreeing with that, in my first posts in this thread all I said was that the current dungeons would not be a faceroll if we had ilvl sync and that without ilvl sync hard dungeons would become a joke as soon as the average ilvl increases.

Either way, whatever they do, it wont be before the expansion, 2.4 and 2.5 are pretty much written in stone, dates can be delayed due to implementation but what is coming is already planned and I doubt they will make changes.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

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iLv sync is just artificial difficulty though, and if SE releases better gear, then it makes sense to release more content suited for that gear. Another way to make dungeons not faceroll is to add mechanics that must be followed. Even if low ilv, impacting mechanics can increase the difficulty of a fight. Just look at Titan EX, whose minimum ilv is 67, yet it kicks people's asses due to its mechanics. That's why the new iLv 70 dungeons don't feel threatening in the least way. Thematically, yeah, they're cool as hell, but even the dungeons introduced in 2.1 have more mechanics than these. Siren will kick your ass if you don't follow mechanics, and so will the bird if you break too many eggs, as well as the first boss if you completely ignore the ads. 2.3 dungeons don't feel like that at all, who have way too many simplistic mechanics.

^exactly, ilvl sync only does so much.