I would start with swapping ShO and SwO so you get tank stance before dps stance thus making lowlvl tanking slightly more easier, and then if anything would be taken off from GCD its shield swipe so we can have atleast one more button to press, if that happens then to compensate SE could nerf its potency lil bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahri
Paladins are a rodeo clown. Warriors are a matador.
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10-14-2014, 07:43 PMSynestra
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10-14-2014, 07:59 PM16bitBounty
I have to ask; If you hate PLD why are you bothering to complete the relic quest for it? Tanks are not DPS classes. You should be holding Enmity (which PLD does just fine in all content) and letting DPS kill your mobs. Do I think Warrior is more fun? Yes! But PLD does what it's supposed to do and does it well.
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10-14-2014, 08:24 PMWarlyx
Shield Oath at 15
Overpower cross class skill for GLA
add a 3 skill to riot combo (a shield skill even? )
more flashy skills , i dont get blinded by the "Paladin" as i should be. not even by his armor.....(lol plastic white) -
10-14-2014, 08:27 PM16bitBounty
Shield oath at 30. Remove sword oath.
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10-14-2014, 08:49 PMBrannigan
Remove Shield Oath and make it so equipping the paladin soul crystal makes you take and deal 20% less damage and generate double enmity. Sword Oath removes those effects and grants the current Sword Oath buff.
The biggest problem with paladin though imo is that like half of its cool stuff is non-functional or of dubious usefulness in most boss fights. We have a lot of stuff that's overly situational. Don't get me wrong, I love Cover and Tempered Will when they're useful, but there's a lot of times when they're pretty much just taking up space on the bar. Warrior doesn't have that problem with as many abilities.
That, and we need more ways to use MP so Riot Blade is better. Also we need another combo. Also, shield swipe is kinda crappy for a level 30 quest skill and block-reaction ability. Also we don't get to use Shield Bash in any high end content, and we're already a class that lacks usable WSes.
ALSO Sword/Shield Oath being on-GCD spells is some serious BS. Monk's 3 stances are abilities. Pretty sure paladin's stuff is only magic because they realized GLA has Riot Blade but only 1 thing that costs MP. -
10-14-2014, 10:25 PMSapphicBerserk is not 50% damage increase, its +50% attack power for 20 seconds. Fight or flight is pure damage increase.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
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10-14-2014, 10:39 PMLeigaonSounds like you wasted a ton of time on a job you don't like..better pick up that axe. I'm kidding. I understand your frustration, my friend is a PLD main and I am quickly getting back into tanking as MDR with a bit of PLD on the side.Quote:
Originally Posted by therpgfanatic
I agree you do need something that is aoe and damaging that isn't at level 50 whether it's a new move or if it's an added bonus to rage that does an aoe shockwave..anything. I play low level on PLD but I enjoy it, but I do a lot of things that aren't necessary to do in the first place to keep me occupied. It's very hard to go from doing WAR to PLD since you're always doing so much, or you should be.
I got a feeling we'll be seeing some serious job adjustments for 3.0, here's hoping you PLD get some more good stuff...besides just looking awesome! -
10-14-2014, 10:47 PMDyne_Fellpool
I lol'd at "statistical voodoo" in the OP.
Yes, math is witchcraft. /eyeroll -
10-14-2014, 11:13 PMEdli
Well pld has amazing defensive CDs. Lets leave to war one of the few advantages it has, better aoe threat. The two tanks should have tradeoffs for their respective stronger points.
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10-14-2014, 11:22 PMWarlyxso the trade off for amazing CDS is tanking trash in 4 man easier ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Edli
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10-14-2014, 11:32 PMmelflomil
Adloquim and Stone skin are soooooo much better on a WAR. That alone in itself is superior. If you you know when big damage us coming inner beast anytime. Or use your oh shit buttons. ( vengeance and thrill of battle). I can see how a sword of oath paladin can out dps a normal a warrior not in defiance in a long fight. In a short fight Warrior exceeds exponentially in terms of damage dealt or extra burst.
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10-14-2014, 11:38 PMDyne_FellpoolNo, Adlo and Stoneskin are not better on a Warrior. They have more HP and +heals recieved but they also take 20% more damage. The defensive stances of the 2 tank jobs accomplish the SAME THING.Quote:
Originally Posted by melflomil
Seriously, I thought this had all been mathed out extensively months and months ago. Come on people. -
10-14-2014, 11:41 PMSadanaYeah, I've said this often on other threads: As healer, I prefer a PLD tank. As dps, I prefer a WAR tank. I sub SCH, not WHM. I can't do the "ohshit" heals like a WHM can, so I'm surprised that someone mentioned they prefer WAR over PLD while playing a SCH. :/ I guess if I knew the WAR abilities better, it would be different. I've only leveled PLD myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleczan
THIS and that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleczan
Tanking, especially as GLA, in those early dungeons with level synced folks... you're gonna have a bad time. >< If there was one thing I wish SE would change, it's the aggro generated by the low level GLA abilities.
For the DF, I'll rarely enter as healer much less as tank (and this is on a JP server ><; ) cause of bad attitudes.
OP, like many others have said... I think it's cool how the two classes tank so differently. Wouldn't have it any other way. ^^ -
10-15-2014, 12:12 AMSeraviEdalborezJust want to point out that 2x WAR has the potential to be the best if you tank swap for every Unchained. This is pretty minor though, and a major overall strat overhaul for the gains involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
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10-15-2014, 12:56 AMExstalIt's just a huge pain in the ass to do (@_@)Quote:
Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez
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10-15-2014, 12:58 AMSymbiantWar has better threat period. If you stuck a pld and a war (exact race / similar / same stats) toe to toe doing just the regular hate cycle (not using cds) the war would take hate from the pld every time. It will happen in aoe and single target. Try it if you don't believe me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edli
That needs to be adjusted imo. Do not nerf the war of course because we do not need any nerfs. -
10-15-2014, 01:12 AMSirTaint
Single tanking dungeon, coil, where ever, WAR crushes PLD in DPS.
The 350 JP parse is the most famous PLD OT parse and has caused a ton of debate but has never been replicated. ACT can be funky at times as well so you need a large data sample, not a single fight. -
10-15-2014, 01:56 AMRyuDragnierNahh, keep Sword Oath for level 40 but make it so entering that mode removes the enmity gain bonuses while increasing the damage of all attacks. An effective DPS mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by 16bitBounty
As for the problems with AoE enmity generation, all they really need to do is to buff Flash, that's all that would be needed really. Also, everybody does know the trick to AoE tanking 3 enemies well, right? Fast Blade one enemy, Savage Blade another, Rage of Halone the last. Cycle through the enemies so all of their aggro is being kept up by Savage and Halone in the combo. It's not that hard, provided the DPS aren't splitting their efforts and going gungho (at which point it will turn incredibly difficult). -
10-15-2014, 02:12 AMSapphicThey were probably using HA sword and HA DPS accessories to hit that, I'm not full 110, missing gloves, but 108 with HA sword, and 110 dps accs (I main MNK), without pots and food I can hit 320 DPS on PLD. Only have turn 5 axe on WAR so can't compare yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Addin food, x-pots, stoms path and I can see 350 being feasible, plus a BRD using Paeons of course ^_^ -
10-15-2014, 02:17 AMSapphicYou might want to check that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool
Defiance reduces damage by 25%, reduces damage output by 25% and increases HP recovery via healing magic by 20%
Shield Oath reduces damage by 20% reduces damage output by 20% -
10-15-2014, 02:20 AMDomira
I feel WAR is overall better designed than PLD. Its probably because they have a lot of underlining systems that add to their complexity: wrath stacks, trading wrath stacks for other skills that open up different options, multiple combo options etc.
PLD is pretty much stuck with RoH combo and flash, because of this there doesn't seem to be much depth to the class though it can provide the same tanking efficiency as WAR. Personally, I don't have a problem with enmity on PLD, though initially WAR is much better due to PLD not having Shield Oath. From my perspective and experience, here is some things I'd like to see changed:
1. Shield/Sword Oath no longer on GCD
2. Shield Swipe no longer on GCD, additional effect increases enmity
3. Circle of Scorn made slightly stronger
4. Fix the delay on hallowed ground
I think PLD has some interesting mechanics, like pacification, blind and silence but later on in game these start to lose effectiveness due to mobs being completely immune to those effects. Overall I wish the shield was more of a feature with the class. Maybe something neat like a spell reflection would be nice. -
10-15-2014, 02:21 AMDomiraIt doesn't reduce damage, it increases HP by 25%:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphic
Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity. HP recovered via curing magic is increased 20%.
Effect ends upon reuse. -
10-15-2014, 02:37 AMDyne_Fellpoollol...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphic
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Domira
Defiance does not reduce the amount of damage you take, only the amount you inflict. It's more HP and heals received are bigger, but you take more damage per hit than a PLD in Shield Oath. Shield Oath is just 20% less damage taken.
These both accomplish the same thing, and Adlo/Stoneskin are equally as effective on either. (And this is very old news) -
10-15-2014, 02:48 AMPROBOUNDJust wanted to point out that its not much larger sample size but he (JP Button PLD) did have a 2nd Clear/Parse with lesser gear at 320 DPS. Not much but its something.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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10-15-2014, 03:02 AMSirTaintI'm gonna OT PLD in t8 tonight. I'm HA legs away from BiS so it should be a decent account.Quote:
Originally Posted by PROBOUND
I tried it two weeks ago but our MT died at 25% and I took over from there ended up 265 dps. -
10-15-2014, 03:11 AMCoatl
There isn't any point in comparing Shield Oath to Defiance. They are both so similar and accomplish the same thing it's not worth mentioning. The 20% less damage Paladin will take Warrior already has more extra HP to make up for it. But once Warrior's litttle chunk of extra HP is gone it's no longer as much of a meatshield.
PLD is better at taking multiple hard hitting hits.
WAR is better at taking one really hard hitting hit. -
10-15-2014, 03:19 AMPROBOUNDYea its also worth mentioning that he Tanked the Dreads in Sword Oath (Dang!) as well. Not sure if that would make a huge difference in overall dps but if you wanna challenge his parse it might be worth trying out in your test. Our group has me (MT PLD) tank both the Dread/Avatar even though we run 2Tank (PLD/WAR). So not sure if it even matters. The use of poison + stat pots will definitely be needed as he uses them off cd.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Mind posting your BiS Arriyala? I've seen so many PLD BiS's that theres no real definitive one. I'd love to take a peek at yours. Mine doesnt involve the HA Pants, its a Max Parry Build BiS.
Ofcourse if you meant BiS DPS Set then yea i use the HA pants in those situations for sure. I think im hovering around 8.2k HP, 285 DET, 391 CRIT using all VIT accessories (BiS DPS MT set) -
10-15-2014, 03:35 AMNyarukoW
When I am healing, doing SCH or WHM, I much rather have a PLD as tank. And what is it with the obsession about tank DPS? They don't need to DPS, they need stay alive and keep Twintania, Raffy, Melusine, Titan, etc. from running all over the place. Solo tanking any of those bosses, I much rather have a PLD doing that task. Taking hit after hit and surviving is not about being a rodeo clown.
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10-15-2014, 03:57 AMElim
Ehhhh... the only time I like healing one tank over the other is in speedruns. For those I much prefer WARs in DPS gear + STR spec'd. Makes things crazy fast.
Also I hate tanking with my PLD. I no longer have aggro issues(because my weapon is a decent ilv) it's just....blah. The lack of AoE annoys me too. I don't see why it's balanced that WAR gets so many good AoE skills but PLD doesn't. Just my opinion. I main WAR on my alt character but I don't have it at level 50 on this character. -
10-15-2014, 03:58 AMIzsha
Ugh this again? War stomps pld for MT dps. Pld has something like a 4% edge over war dps when OT. Even more if a war MT gives then slash debuff.
Pld has higher enmity over time for single target. (FoF is retarded good, war must cycle non enmity combos, and war tank stance is -25% while pld is only -20%)
War has higher aoe enmity and general spike enmity (zerk being ~44% boost, unchained being 33% boost multiplying to become 90ish% boost in spike damage/enmity.
War GAINS tools in tank mode. Wrath stacks increase crit. We get a slew of moves only usable in tank stance which all boost damage. IB 300 pot ignore dam penalty. Unchained remove dam penalty. SC 250 pot aoe ignore tank penalty. War gets a lotta stuff that all ups dps in tank ml mode. Of course they do more MT damge. Pld gains......swipe. OT it's reversed. Pld gains a giant AA buff. War looses all its defiance abilities. Pld gains an edge OT. Shit aint rocket science.
Pld has stronger CDs, but they have giant timers and low durations. War has weaker ones but much shorter timers and longer durations. Pld has str debuff. War has path. Pld has a shield. War has ib. Both tank stances are functionally equivalent (wars require 4% more heals but should make that up with various life regeneration abilities)
Pld may be 'boring' but it is effective. All this QQ about pld isn't based in performance. It performs fine as a tank. It's just QQ about style/flavor/feel. The tanks are balanced. Just because you don't 'like' one doesn't mean its broken.
Not liking a job doesn't make it ineffective. Pld and war have both been proven to effectively tank everything in this game more than competently. And as a side note, once you're geared enough you start tanking things without tank stance. Remember who does more damage without tank stance again? -
10-15-2014, 04:10 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by PROBOUND
I consider this BiS for everything but Savage Coil.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/O09P -
10-15-2014, 04:14 AMPROBOUNDThx very interesting. Do you MT in this set as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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10-15-2014, 04:22 AMSirTaintI dont have the legs but yes I tank everything in a similar set.Quote:
Originally Posted by PROBOUND
We started full STR solo tanking t9 3 weeks ago. But an aggressive set like the one I posted would need some competent healers. -
10-15-2014, 04:29 AMGiantbane
The "problem" is that WAR is more flexible while the PLD is more simple. So the WAR *can* do more damage and generate more threat than a PLD while tanking a single target, but cannot do so unless they give up something else.
Single Target
The PLD is simple and all in one. Halone generates high threat, it's their best damage combo and applies a defensive debuff (STR down).
The WAR gets 3 options that all do something specific. Damage (Storm's Eye), Threat (Butcher's Block), Defensive (Storm's Path). But you can't do all 3 at once so you have to pick what you want to focus on. Because SE only lasts for 15 seconds and SP only lasts for 20 seconds it is impossible to maintain both buffs 100% of the time while generating a high level of threat. The loss of SE is especially pronounced in a 2 tank scenario because you're losing damage from both you and your PLD off tank.
So you have to choose:
Want to do more damage than a PLD? Then you will either generate less threat (no BB) or take a lot more damage (no SP). As a MT neither of those may be worth it (depends on the fight).
Want to do more threat than a PLD? Simple fact is a WAR cannot out threat a PLD over time unless he either drops SE or SP from the rotation entirely. So this means more damage taken or the WAR isn't doing any more damage.
So in a standard tanking scenario, where you want to generate a lot of threat and take as little damage as possible, the WAR MT isn't any better than the PLD MT in terms of damage, threat or otherwise. A WAR *can* shine because his flexibility allows him to adapt to the fight, trading mitigation or threat for damage when desired, but this is going to depend on the fight as to when this is and isn't possible.
AoE
WaR does more AoE damage and generates more AoE threat
PLD takes less AoE damage
The WAR damage/threat advantage is pretty obvious as overpower actually does damage while flash does not. Overpower can also crit, and is made stronger by maim, unchained, berserk and inner release. Flash cannot crit, and is unaffected by fight or flight. Oddly enough, the only buff that does effect Flash is the WAR's berserk.
WAR vs. PLD damage mitigation is pretty balanced in a single target scenario. But that requires the steady use of inner beast. In an AoE scenario, you're not building wrath very fast (or at all), so the WAR is losing some of his mitigation. WAR also loses the SP debuff. Similar to the SP debuff, the PLD also loses the halone debuff. However, the PLD doesn't lose anything else whether he's tanking 1 or 100. The PLD actually can gain mitigation if the enemies are effected by the blind debuff from flash. This gives the PLD the defensive advantage while AoE tanking.
So in a sense it's balanced. Whether or not you consider it *good* balance is another thing. I think the WAR should be able to maintain/generate *some* wrath during AoE without having to resort entirely to single target combos. And I also think the PLDs AoE threat/damage capabilities should be closer to the WARs (even if it isn't the same). -
10-15-2014, 04:31 AMDomiraThis sums it up nicely, excellent post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
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10-15-2014, 04:51 AMGiantbaneThis is false.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coatl
PLD with 8001 hp in shield oath takes a 10,000 damage hit. This is reduced by 20% to 8000 damage. The PLD is left with 1 hp.
WAR with 8001 hp in defiance now has 10,001 hp, takes a 10,000 damage hit. The WAR is left with 1 hp.
So they're both equal in their ability to take big hits.
The same PLD then receives 8,000 hp worth of healing. The PLD now has 8001hp and his life is full again.
The same WAR then receives 8,000 hp worth of healing. This is boosted to 9600hp. The WAR now has 9601/10,000 hp and his life is almost full.
So they're close, but not equal, in their ability to take repeated hits, as the healers ability to restore lost HP is very close between the two classes. But don't forget that the WAR has the ability to restore their own health via inner beast, second wind and a longer lasting blood bath. This pretty much makes up for the fact that they require a little more healing than the PLD. So it's still balanced over all. -
10-15-2014, 06:33 AMIzsha
A lot of pld see all these multiple combos and extra abilities and say war has SO MANY TOOLS! War is so FLEXIBLE! OK pld can have a 3rd hit after riot blade that adds 10% str reduction. But we're taking it away from halone. Congrats now your 'flexible' like war with path and BB. Oh you want ib? Sure but take off your shield. You want a maim effect? K but shield oath now reduces more damage like war and you loose AA buff in sword oath. You want off gcd stun? K but it's 50 pot and has a 20 sec cool down.
The reason war has more tools and pld seems lacking is because pld has sooo much built in. You don't need a mitigation and enmity combo. They are the same. You don't need IB because your shield does it passively. You don't need maim because you automatically get AA in OT and less reduction in MT mode. You know what I'd kill for? A 300 pot off gcd move with a 30 sec cooldown. Pld has the most powerful off gcd abilities in the game. Scorn and spirits are 10 pot/sec EACH. War has 1 off gcd move that is 0.25 pot/sec and silence is golden. I wish I had an aoe blind move that didn't interrupt my combos. Oh wait it's built into pld aoe threat.
Pld is already flexible and has all the tools. They come built in. That is not some detriment. The reason pld is so 'simple' is because it's brutally efficient. Again I reiterate, war is not somehow superior because it has lots of buttons because plds buttons have more effects built in. I prefer war because it's more engaging and fun to me, not because it's more effective. In fact it's often frustrating when pld can achieve the same result with less hassle. Aoe threat is the only time that is not the case and that still costs tons of TP.
More buttons doesn't mean more stuff. It means dividing stuff you already have into more buttons. -
10-15-2014, 06:53 AMEye_Gore
Are you trying to bash Rodeo Clowns? Do you know what that clown does?
The rodeo clown is the most DANGEROUS job, 'cause he gets CLOSEST to the BULL. He gets the BEST of the BULL! HOOK to the left! HOOK to the right! And if the bull rider's in trouble, he's gotta protect him, even if it means gettin' his ribs pulled out, or bein' freight-trained...
Freight-trained?
Run over, just like a freight train, only with a bull, it's worse, cause a freight train don't BACK UP and FINISH the JOB. Later on I'll show you how to lie out on the stretcher when the ambulance comes.