Now that Nexus is out... still a good idea to put piety on Blm Novus or no?

So here's some hard numbers to show what you all are so up in arms about...

Stats of my non-SCoB gear loadout (that is, BiS for what I've got access to with an ACC of 432 or better) as this is what I'm using most of the time:
WD - 75
INT - 576
DET - 309
CRIT - 484
SSPD - 484

With those numbers, here are the DPS numbers for the T1 and T2 rotations:

T1 B --
Raw Damage + CRIT: 107809
Raw DPS + CRIT: 412.8

T2 B --
Raw Damage + CRIT: 109120
Raw DPS + CRIT: 412.3

WOW! A whole 0.5dps... a whopping 0.125% difference between the two rotations!

Now let's add 8 DET and see what happens...

T1 B (+8DET) --
Raw Damage: 108163
Raw DPS + CRIT: 414.1

T2 B (+8DET) --
Raw Damage: 109478
Raw DPS + CRIT: 413.6

Amazing... 1.3dps increase for the top rotation, a HUGE 0.31% increase in DPS output.

Let's try +8 CRIT and see...

T1 B (+8CRIT) --
Raw Damage: 108076
Raw DPS + CRIT: 413.8

T2 B (+8CRIT) --
Raw Damage: 109390
Raw DPS + CRIT: 413.3

A MASSIVE 1dps increase over my current stats for the T1 B rotation.

Max Total damage difference is 354... or roughly 1/3 of a Fire 1 cast.

Yeah, my Novus is SOOOOOO gimped and useless isn't it? </sarcasm>

As I suspected early on in this thread the DPS difference is negligible. An extra crit on any spell on any of the lower stats/T2 rotations easily wipes out the DPS difference. Hell, getting lucky on not having a plume under you so you don't have to move will make a larger DPS difference than these stats will.

Get the burrs out of your rears, numbers this small only mean something if you use a parser and can easily be wiped out by RNG or human error. Sure, you can always say 1dps more is 1dps more. But you know, as I do, that there is no practical or real life difference between these numbers. No one will ever notice you doing 1dps more or less w/o running that parser, and in the end the monster will be dead at the same time anyways.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

Yeah, my Novus is SOOOOOO gimped and useless isn't it? </sarcasm>

As I suspected early on in this thread the DPS difference is negligible. An extra crit on any spell on any of the lower stats/T2 rotations easily wipes out the DPS difference. Hell, getting lucky on not having a plume under you so you don't have to move will make a larger DPS difference than these stats will.

Get the burrs out of your rears, numbers this small only mean something if you use a parser and can easily be wiped out by RNG or human error. Sure, you can always say 1dps more is 1dps more. But you know, as I do, that there is no practical or real life difference between these numbers.

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Some of our main reasons (no SCH, solo content, "more flexible") are silly reasons to put PIE in, considering you could have instead put 8crit on there if you really didn't want to or couldn't afford to cap Det. Solo content is a joke, and "more flexible" is a cop-out reason given that you can adjust your rotation on the fly instead of speccing to always have enough PIE to adhere to the script (when, as mentioned like a dozen times now, you could just use Thunder 1 and never have to worry about PIE). Coil isn't the only content, but in what content that matters do you need enough PIE all the time? You don't.

Literally the one good point to be made of PIE is hitting 250 to be able to do Convert > F2 > Flare for trash mob AoE. Which you can instead do Convert > F1 > Flare regardless of MP, or Convert > F2 > B3 or whatever if you don't have enough. Because trash mob AoE efficiency down to the level of "do I have enough PIE" is not that important. For a single-target rotation it doesn't matter at all.

You instead keep harping on about how it isn't a big deal. It isn't. But your Novus is basically now just a HA staff in terms of "you wasted some secondaries".

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

How on earth does it let you be more flexible with your rotation. If anything, T1+B1 is more flexible than T2 because if you get a quick mana tick, you go into Fire phase without B1, if you get a slow tick, you do a B1 (or a scathe if you need to move).

T2 is less DPS, less flexible with movement (due to the longer cast), and less flexible with mana ticks.

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Casting Blizzard I drops your dps by as much as standing still not casting anything for almost a full second.

You still have the ability to cast B1 after T2 if you get a slow UI tick, it will just happen much less often.

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And while we're at it, higher spell speed doesn't make you get interrupted fewer times, it increases the number of spells you crank out, so you are interrupted a lower percentage of your cast time.

6 fire rotation only takes 369 PIE, that's only a loss of 11 INT and ~10 secondary stats in a party with SCH. Yes, that does include food and novus stat losses.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

And while we're at it, higher spell speed doesn't make you get interrupted fewer times, it increases the number of spells you crank out, so you are interrupted a lower percentage of your cast time.

6 fire rotation only takes 369 PIE, that's only a loss of 11 INT and ~10 secondary stats in a party with SCH. Yes, that does include food and novus stat losses.

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You're neglecting that aside from the higher # of spells each spell has a smaller window of being interrupted, since you won't be interrupted if you're at somehin like 80% cast (I forget the exact figure).

Edit: and as soon as you start including INT losses to accomplish more PIE you should probably just quit BLM.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You're neglecting that aside from the higher # of spells each spell has a smaller window of being interrupted, since you won't be interrupted if you're at somehin like 80% cast (I forget the exact figure).

Edit: and as soon as you start including INT losses to accomplish more PIE you should probably just quit BLM.

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Yes it is a smaller window per spell, but there's more of those windows. It equals out.

I'm not talking a straight INT>PIE swap on bonus attributes, and if you think 1 INT is worth more than any amount of PIE, you should just stop talking.

369 PIE is absurdly overshooting for 6fire. You can make it work with much, much less. 305 PIE will work most of the time, a little more makes it more foolproof to one particular scenario of bad UI3 tick RNG.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

369 PIE is absurdly overshooting for 6fire. You can make it work with much, much less. 305 PIE will work most of the time, a little more makes it more foolproof to one particular scenario of bad UI3 tick RNG.

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That should have been 315, not 369. I was going off my PIE build as having 2 more than needed, and read 317 as 371.

302 will get you enough to use B1 after B3, before casting Thunder.
315 is what you need to go from B3 into Thunder every time.

In my opinion, when it comes to your 'Relic' weapon and it's upgrade path, I feel it's best to make a solid 'steady eddie' weapon and not worry about min/maxing of specific stats perse...I feel this way for ALL jobs.

Here's why:

Your relic weapon is just supposed to be your trusty all-around go to weapon you can always have, no matter how the rng gods treat you when it comes to other drops. Furthermore. since it's a weapon designed to grow WITH you, it should never really be completely useless or outdated...but this does not mean it will be 'BiS'. Just that it's a good weapon that can see you through all content until you get a BiS. Also, since it is an upgradable weapon, it will keep up with content better than other weapons, but since we have no idea what the next content's requirements might be, it's hard to say for 100% sure that maxing stats x and y over z will always be better.

Basically, the BiS weapons for your class should be the drops from the current 'high end' content...but they shouldn't last longer than a patch cycle or two as 'BiS'....a Relic weapon though w/ it's upgrades should be more than enough to clear the hardest content with and use until you can gain the BiS for that patch (if the RNG gods favor you/you desire).

Think if the Relic quest and it's upgrades as insurance....nothing more, nothing less.


But no, it is NOT worth the gil/time to min/max a Novus as there will always be weapons with the desired min/max stats otherwise available in game. Just make a good solid weapon.

The only other potential alternative to use the Novus weapons for is off-spec builds that you are doing for a very specific reason, and even then, there are likely better, less wasteful options. (+STR tank builds/PvP builds etc)

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I'm not talking a straight INT>PIE swap on bonus attributes, and if you think 1 INT is worth more than any amount of PIE, you should just stop talking.

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So we're agreed then. Except you haven't then explained where you're losing INT to get PIE. Two melded i90s?

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

But no, it is NOT worth the gil/time to min/max a Novus as there will always be weapons with the desired min/max stats otherwise available in game. Just make a good solid weapon.

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True (as true as opinions can go) except for the DET weighting. A novus will potentially have 44 crit/31 det where any other i110 weapon with crit high det low would be 44 crit 22 det, or det high crit low would be 31 det 31 crit.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Yes it is a smaller window per spell, but there's more of those windows. It equals out.

I'm not talking a straight INT>PIE swap on bonus attributes, and if you think 1 INT is worth more than any amount of PIE, you should just stop talking.

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The eps parsing was done last year comparing 5 fire rotation to 6 fire rotation and it ended up that 5 stronger fires even at ilvl 90 had higher dps. That is if I'm remembering the timeline correctly.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

So we're agreed then. Except you haven't then explained where you're losing INT to get PIE. Two melded i90s?

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HQ Cashmere Hat Of Casting - 18 INT
High Allagan Mask Of Casting - 24 INT

Head/Hands/Feet are each a loss of 6 INT, max at 11 PIE
Belt/Accessories are each a loss of 5 INT, max at 8 PIE

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

The eps parsing was done last year comparing 5 fire rotation to 6 fire rotation and it ended up that 5 stronger fires even at ilvl 90 had higher dps. That is if I'm remembering the timeline correctly.

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I don't remember ever seeing that, and even so the gear is a lot different now than it was then. It takes a whole lot less now to hit enough MP than it did in 2.0

Hmm, pie caps on ariyala site are off then.

We should just make a thread saying since SE started putting acc on healer gear, they should put PIE on caster gear. ;)

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

Get the burrs out of your rears, numbers this small only mean something if you use a parser and can easily be wiped out by RNG or human error. Sure, you can always say 1dps more is 1dps more. But you know, as I do, that there is no practical or real life difference between these numbers. No one will ever notice you doing 1dps more or less w/o running that parser, and in the end the monster will be dead at the same time anyways.

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By your same argument it doesn't matter if someone puts points in skillspeed on BLM because its only a small dps loss

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Casting Blizzard I drops your dps by as much as standing still not casting anything for almost a full second.

You still have the ability to cast B1 after T2 if you get a slow UI tick, it will just happen much less often.

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And while we're at it, higher spell speed doesn't make you get interrupted fewer times, it increases the number of spells you crank out, so you are interrupted a lower percentage of your cast time.

6 fire rotation only takes 369 PIE, that's only a loss of 11 INT and ~10 secondary stats in a party with SCH. Yes, that does include food and novus stat losses.

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Do you have a source for the B1 being less DPS? Puro posted that a T1+B1 rotation gives more DPS on his spreadsheet.

Also, higher spellspeed does mean you get interrupted less. A lower GCD means there will be times where you can finish a cast before moving or even use cast clipping sooner (moving just before a cast). This is something I do a number of times in ScoB.

Regarding the 6 fire rotation, the only recent testing i've seen is this:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/119692-Guide-Black-Mage-Because-heavy-deeps-that-s-why.?p=6203293&viewfull=1#post6203293

Do you have anything more recent? Obviously its not perfect due to using non BLM pieces. Losing 11 Int and 10 secondary stats, i'd be very interested to see your build to achieve that.

I'll do some looking today though it will take me a while due to irl stuff. I mained blm until October last year, then stopped playing till summer of this year, that's why I'm pretty sure it was a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Do you have a source for the B1 being less DPS? Puro posted that a T1+B1 rotation gives more DPS on his spreadsheet.

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If I really need to argue this, the point was lost completely. The dps of B1 is about 60% of a normal rotation total dps. That's the same as wasting 40% of a GCD, almost a second.

Where exactly on his spreadsheet did he show the dps comparison? All I saw was rankings.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Also, higher spellspeed does mean you get interrupted less.

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Math problem: You are always casting. With a 2 second cast time, what are the chances that you'll be in that first 80% of your spell cast when a mob uses a skill that causes you to move? What about with a 10 second cast time?

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Regarding the 6 fire rotation, the only recent testing i've seen is this:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/119692-Guide-Black-Mage-Because-heavy-deeps-that-s-why.?p=6203293&viewfull=1#post6203293

Do you have anything more recent? Obviously its not perfect due to using non BLM pieces. Losing 11 Int and 10 secondary stats, i'd be very interested to see your build to achieve that.

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The thing that jumps out there is the difference in F1 average. Same gear, RNG changed things dramatically. If the 6 fire rotation had the same average damage on F1s, it would have won out by about 4 dps. Plus he skipped some B1 casts due to not enough PIE.

11 PIE from Hat/Hands/Feet, each for a loss of 6 INT and a gain of ~20 secondary stats using ilvl90 over ilvl110.
8 PIE from Belt, each for a loss of 5 INT and a gain of ~20 secondary stats using ilvl90 over ilvl110.
23(24) PIE for 23(24) secondary stats on Novus(Nexus)
17 PIE HQ Pineapple Juice, loss of 15-30 secondary stats
8 PIE from SCH in party below 300 PIE, 9 PIE at 300+

Master race can get 302 with Nexus and a Belt (5 INT, ~25 secondary stat loss) and can also hit 315 with Novus and two of hat/hands/feet (12 INT, ~10 secondary stat loss)
302 PIE for rest of the races Novus, belt, and one of hat/hands/feet (11 INT, ~10 secondary stat loss)

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

The thing that jumps out there is the difference in F1 average. Same gear, RNG changed things dramatically. If the 6 fire rotation had the same average damage on F1s, it would have won out by about 4 dps. Plus he skipped some B1 casts due to not enough PIE.

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I agree, the crit difference between the trials makes it not a great indicator (and I was too lazy that day to do more), but it just didn't look promising at the time because it was only a very slight difference. Eyeballing, it looked like a wash to have a Novus (at the time) with PIE and a couple i90 PIE meld pieces versus going full INT like a regular BLM.

Though like I said in that post; not exactly a BLM main so my eyeballs aren't worth as much.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If I really need to argue this, the point was lost completely. The dps of B1 is about 60% of a normal rotation total dps. That's the same as wasting 40% of a GCD, almost a second.

Where exactly on his spreadsheet did he show the dps comparison? All I saw was rankings.

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I agree with this, from testing and putting it into practice, and it's why I favor T2. I'm unsure if Puro's calculations included the possibility of stopping your cast in the interest of the rotation for a very small amount of time or if his calculations assumed if you can't immediately F3 after your T1/T2 you HAVE to do a B1.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I agree with this, from testing and putting it into practice, and it's why I favor T2. I'm unsure if Puro's calculations included the possibility of stopping your cast in the interest of the rotation for a very small amount of time or if his calculations assumed if you can't immediately F3 after your T1/T2 you HAVE to do a B1.

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I favor T2 mainly because T1 seems to always runs out before I get back to it in my rotation whereas T2 tends to be hitting zero just as I start the next cast of it. Seems to be a waste of DPS on the boss IMHO to not keep the DoT up as much as possible, which is why I'm still not quite believing the numbers for the calculator.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

I favor T2 mainly because T1 seems to always runs out before I get back to it in my rotation whereas T2 tends to be hitting zero just as I start the next cast of it. Seems to be a waste of DPS on the boss IMHO to not keep the DoT up as much as possible, which is why I'm still not quite believing the numbers for the calculator.

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If I read it correctly, thunder 1 has no chance of clipping no matter rng. Also, it has a lesser cast time making it more likely to go off before needing to move if targeted, but that's my own interpretation of a benefit of that rotation. And, as it was said before, it allows flexibility in returning to the fire rotation, leaving the least downtime from casting no matter when the mana tick is, possibly returning straight to fire when thunder is cast if the tick comes immediately, or giving a spell to occupy the downtime if necessary to wait.

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

If I read it correctly, thunder 1 has no chance of clipping no matter rng. Also, it has a lesser cast time making it more likely to go off before needing to move if targeted, but that's my own interpretation of a benefit of that rotation. And, as it was said before, it allows flexibility in returning to the fire rotation, leaving the least downtime from casting no matter when the mana tick is, possibly returning straight to fire when thunder is cast if the tick comes immediately, or giving a spell to occupy the downtime if necessary to wait.

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You can clip with Thunder I, but you need Fey up to get under 2.25 GCD, and no FC/TC procs for a round (<10% chance), after having a quick tick of mp from the last Blizzard III.

So if it's clipping that's the case, then it's all down to the extra ~0.5s that T2 takes to cast that makes T1 the better choice? As it seems that the damage/chance to proc on the last tick that T2 has should make it better.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

So if it's clipping that's the case, then it's all down to the extra ~0.5s that T2 takes to cast that makes T1 the better choice? As it seems that the damage/chance to proc on the last tick that T2 has should make it better.

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I think the main thing is being able to return to fire as quick as possible with the least downtime of casting is the main thing

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

I think the main thing is being able to return to fire as quick as possible with the least downtime of casting is the main thing

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To piggyback on Dragonfire's point, depending on how far down you take your mana before you go into UI phase, you will sometimes not have enough to immediately cast T2, but you'll have enough for T1. So using T1 eliminates the time where you would have had to wait for a mana tick to cast T2, which is in direct violation of the ABC's of BLM.

I'm new to theory crafting and number crunching, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

To piggyback on Dragonfire's point, depending on how far down you take your mana before you go into UI phase, you will sometimes not have enough to immediately cast T2, but you'll have enough for T1. So using T1 eliminates the time where you would have had to wait for a mana tick to cast T2, which is in direct violation of the ABC's of BLM.

I'm new to theory crafting and number crunching, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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Yep, and that's why 251 was the big number to hit as it avoided that downtime with T2. Although, I suppose I should admit I've swapped some Novus stats in the past few days and don't have 251 anymore myself. Tossed 8 Acc on it as that gave me something like 6 Crit and 13 Det on my T8-9 gear set. Far better than tossing a stupid 8 Crit onto the thing, which is what I was against.

You don't need extra PIE to use T2, or T3 in your rotation if you start with Blizzard 1 first, though you would lose few minor advantages by doing so:

1. extra tick chance for Thundercloud Proc if you didn't cast T3 at the beginning of fight
2. Not being able to skip casting a spell (Blizzard I in this case) when 1st mana tick came fast, which would increase your DPS by X amount (~1.6 to ~3 max DPS with current BiS. Higher stats = higher benefit for skipping the cast)
3. ?

I'll have the updated calculator some time tomorrow with Thunder III rotation as well as Fire x 6 Rotation, which requires 302 PIE (Bliz 1 before Thunder) or 315 PIE (Thunder I + Optional Bliz 1)

So, if I want to use Thunder II/III or Fire x 6 rotation, I would invest in PIE. Otherwise, I'd invest in other stats to match 2.4 BiS until I get better weapon.

/Random guy rambling