Gearswaps are dead - long live the Jobswaps!

Having already acknowledged that class/job swapping is the best way to deal with the dungeon they've implemented - I didn't think SE would accept it as a legit strat.

This is a revelation to me.

-monologue-
So instead of sub jobs, this time we are multi-job?

Interesting. I don't know what you guys are shitting in your panties about.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Please like this post if:

You like posts because the OP of a thread tells you to like his posts.

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please like this because this person said to like this because the OP said to like it because i said to like it. This is getting old but then again SE don't want to release a poll system on here -.-

but ya no need to be rude even if it's a joke it's the best way to make sure SE know which idea we like.

I dont know why this is shocking to people.

really guys?




(For those of you who have already figured out that multiple classes gives you an advantage in the dungeon - and for some reason or another SE allowed it)

Give yourselves a pat on the back. - no, seriously. Do it.

As a response to those complaining about being required to rank up multiple classes. I'll refer you back to letter 'X' - where the battle planners specifically stated that jobs would be specialized for party play and most importantly to your agruement not "cross-class". You will be valued @ end-game as a job.

Please pay attention :D

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

That's how it is now, sure, with just the two dungeons we've had for a little over a week. But what about when it becomes apparent that the most efficient way to clear dungeons is to use certain classes/jobs for clearing out trash and certain ones for bosses? What is to stop people from requesting that before you join their pickup group or their endgame LS, you have not just one in-demand class/job at 50 (or higher once the cap is finally raised) but two (or three or four or...) so that they can run dungeons with the least effort possible? What happens when after that becomes the norm, the developers are forced to make endgame content that's challenging enough for the groups that change classes/jobs multiple times, and people who don't change their entire configurations can't run them at all?

This isn't really a problem for what's in the game now, but a question of what will happen in the future due to it.

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You don't HAVE TO use the most efficient set up though.

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People are confusing classes with jobs it seems. Maybe the article was talking about in the future when more than one job is released per class that you can gain a benefit from swapping your job around (like a DD Monk to a stealthy Thief for PGL or something).

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My bad. The article quotet states that to beat the dungeon in time (<25 min total) to open all the chests, including the final one, it is advised to have characters change from GLD to CON, and from CON to ARC or LNC later. And that having the ARC ability "stride" on all player's task bar is required.

Job swapping is used a lot in Rift during dungeons. It works very well, since the swapping procedure is really streamlined (a single key press, abilities/stats/bars all saved) and the number of jobs is quite limited (5 jobs at top). Also you only have one global level, so switching doesn't change your power in ridiculous way.

It is mainly used for dps to switch to off-heal or off-tank against a boss, or for dps to go either ranged or melee depending of the next boss. But also to switch between aoe-healing/dps/tanking and single-target healing/dps/tanking depending on the situation.

Sometimes it's used to change the roles of the players, if someone is having difficulty filling his role (hi tanks).

Of course in FF14 we need to have some level restriction to make it worthwhile, or people would use it to roll over a difficult boss with some R50 job. Also one-key switchs (skills, items, bars saved) should be implemented (and without macro...).

In the current state of the game, it's really a bother.

But I can totally see really high-end difficult dungeons requiring people to be able to handle different roles at different times to get through. "That boss? We need someone stealthing behind him to open the door. This other one? One off-healer is mandatory to save the dps. Etc."

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Originally Posted by Scape

You don't HAVE TO use the most efficient set up though.

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Why are you replying to my post if you didn't bother to read anything I wrote? I'm well aware that you are not required to use the most efficient setup currently.

I like gear swaping better then (job+Ability+Gear Swaping) in swaps.

Game needs to have more limits on what you can do.

Theres a few problems on how they even plan updates to the game. They seem to think the less important stuff is more important to improving the game. 18.0a would be one of those updates. Postpone 18.0a and give us 19.0 already. Do we really need equipment toggle on/off...

Please focus on more important topics that need to be addressed first.

I would rather get a large update to the game that applys All types of equipment toggles, Adjustments to designs and other less important changes to the game in 1 update.

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Originally Posted by Venat

I like gear swaping better then (job+Ability+Gear Swaping) in swaps.

Game needs to have more limits on what you can do.

Theres a few problems on how they even plan updates to the game. They seem to think the less important stuff is more important to improving the game. 18.0a would be one of those updates. Postpone 18.0a and give us 19.0 already. Do we really need equipment toggle on/off...

Please focus on more important topics that need to be addressed first.

I would rather get a large update to the game that applys All types of equipment toggles, Adjustments to designs and other less important changes to the game in 1 update.

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Christ, enough of these stupid posts already. How have you not read the constant reminders from Yoshida and the dev team that different people are doing different things? The UI team can knock out slight adjustments easily which are being stuck in 1.18a whilst the rest of the team are doing other things.

You don't know how to run an operation such as this, stop telling them how to do their jobs. I can assure you they're working their asses off to improve the game with the investors and higher ups breathing down their necks, they don't need you to tell them what's more important.

/endrant.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

People are confusing classes with jobs it seems. Maybe the article was talking about in the future when more than one job is released per class that you can gain a benefit from swapping your job around (like a DD Monk to a stealthy Thief for PGL or something).

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I totally can see that for conjurer in the future: sometimes need to switch to black mage (to AoE trash mobs) or sometimes just switch to white mage for heals/AoE heals. Would work better than class change in my opinion!

I know that the answer to this varies from server to server, but how prevalent is class-swapping during dungeons?

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Originally Posted by Wynn

How can you swap jobs when it is going to be 1 job per class. Did they mean swap classes?

As to the question, I hated the idea of gear swapping and the thought of changing jobs over and over again seems just as cheesy. But then again, one of the selling points of the game was to change classes on the fly so it kind of fits with the original vision.

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if you switch your class then you should be able to switch your job, thats how.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

if you switch your class then you should be able to switch your job, thats how.

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SE could also put some limit on class changing when on "job mode", who knows...

ON-TOPIC:

This is the first article I've seen in awhile that's not about how bad the game is or how the sky is falling. They are talking about end-game strategies and tactics aka "content". The player-base response to this should be FINALLY some real talk! Some degree of micro-managing is needed in most MMOs.

If you have followed this game as long as i have this is what the armory system was designed to do, unlike 90% of mmos (and in the same vein of FFXI's job system) SE wants you to put a lot of time and investment into ONE character rather then having many different characters (I personally believe this creates a stronger bond between you and your avatar, but that's me). This is why there are no restrictions on how many classes you can have leveled or any race/gender only classes. In the late game many players are going to want to have a wide variety of different classes/jobs leveled and geared for whatever the game throws at them. Sure there will be some who only want to stick to one class or job and as others have mentioned no one is forcing you not to. And that's the key here, those forcefully opposed of this (not new) discovery are asking for changes that would hurt the people who WANT to play the game as it was intended to be played, but us who see this as a in-depth fun way to tackle a problem are NOT asking to force anyone else to play differently.

I mean COME ON it's such a cool idea to think of a epic instanced dungeons that you can build unique strategies around each section or foe that you encounter. Call me an optimistic but THIS sounds like the niche that FFXIV has been looking for, and it gets me excited just thinking about it.

SOAPBOX:

Like many others that hoped for FFXIV to be their MMO home for years to come (post or even parallel with FFXI), i check back often to read these forums and sometimes play for a few hours to see how things are going. What i have learned from a few months of consistent play in the past and now from months of reading these forums regularly is this: the FFXIV community is one of the most VILE and DISTURBINGLY FICKLE group of BOTTOM-FEEDING online denizens i have ever encountered.

I'm sorry to be dramatic but it's true. Yes, there is such a thing as constructive criticism and yes the game does need it, SE knows that, but responses to forums like this one and the NIGHTMARE that was FFXIV official forums after the last update (seriously!) were just depressing.

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Originally Posted by Jem

ON-TOPIC:

This is the first article I've seen in awhile that's not about how bad the game is or how the sky is falling. They are talking about end-game strategies and tactics aka "content". The player-base response to this should be FINALLY some real talk! Some degree of micro-managing is needed in most MMOs.

If you have followed this game as long as i have this is what the armory system was designed to do, unlike 90% of mmos (and in the same vein of FFXI's job system) SE wants you to put a lot of time and investment into ONE character rather then having many different characters (I personally believe this creates a stronger bond between you and your avatar, but that's me). This is why there are no restrictions on how many classes you can have leveled or any race/gender only classes. In the late game many players are going to want to have a wide variety of different classes/jobs leveled and geared for whatever the game throws at them. Sure there will be some who only want to stick to one class or job and as others have mentioned no one is forcing you not to. And that's the key here, those forcefully opposed of this (not new) discovery are asking for changes that would hurt the people who WANT to play the game as it was intended to be played, but us who see this as a in-depth fun way to tackle a problem are NOT asking to force anyone else to play differently.

I mean COME ON it's such a cool idea to think of a epic instanced dungeons that you can build unique strategies around each section or foe that you encounter. Call me an optimistic but THIS sounds like the niche that FFXIV has been looking for, and it gets me excited just thinking about it.

SOAPBOX:

Like many others that hoped for FFXIV to be their MMO home for years to come (post or even parallel with FFXI), i check back often to read these forums and sometimes play for a few hours to see how things are going. What i have learned from a few months of consistent play in the past and now from months of reading these forums regularly is this: the FFXIV community is one of the most VILE and DISTURBINGLY FICKLE group of BOTTOM-FEEDING online denizens i have ever encountered.

I'm sorry to be dramatic but it's true. Yes, there is such a thing as constructive criticism and yes the game does need it, SE knows that, but responses to forums like this one and the NIGHTMARE that was FFXIV official forums after the last update (seriously!) were just depressing.

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u say that the ppl who dont like this idea are trying to force it not to happen u mean by complaning?
well then if thats the case all the ppl who like it are trying to force it on the ppl who dont by saying hey this is good :|

i mean the ppl see changes that are coming and say we dont like this were doing the exact same thing as ppl who like it saying hey we like this

I didn't read all 6 pages but was surprised to see (based on the "likes' to OP questions) that people are against the class/job swapping strategy. I think it is great. Imagine in the beginning of the dungeon you need high defense so everyone switches to GLA or MRD and 'tanks' their own mob. But in the middle portion of the dungeon you need well executed time-nukes on CON to easily pass through that part. Then at the end of the dungeon you need standard party set up. I think that sounds fun and people aren't stuck in one class for a whole event. Although I guess it could get crazy in some end-game scenarios where shells require you to have all 50s, but I think that is a minority issue and could be worked around (sure there are multiple solutions to problems presented in game).

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Although I guess it could get crazy in some end-game scenarios where shells require you to have all 50s, but I think that is a minority issue

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Huh. You never played a MMO before, did you?

But back to the topic:
I don't want to play dress-up Barbie for the better part of a dungeon because that's the best way to success. I want to play my role. With all its unique strengths and weaknesses.

I want to be a proud Archer. Or a mysterious Conjurer. Or a vaillant Knight. Not a Gladiato-arching Thaumato-conjurer. At least for the duration of one dungeon. Like some stupid hero-man, who takes a decision when he passes the threshold of the abyss, and faces its consequences.

[Dress-up spheres?][No thank you.]

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Originally Posted by danny52844

u say that the ppl who dont like this idea are trying to force it not to happen u mean by complaning?
well then if thats the case all the ppl who like it are trying to force it on the ppl who dont by saying hey this is good :|

i mean the ppl see changes that are coming and say we dont like this were doing the exact same thing as ppl who like it saying hey we like this

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sorry maybe i wasn't clear. Some people were going as far as asking for class/job restrictions once you enter a instance or something to that effect. That WOULD be hurting the game for people who are fine with the CURRENT system.

If anything they should be looking at ways to improve class-switching so it's not as cumbersome but iirc they already said that is in the pipes as with other improvements to the UI.

I have already voiced my opinion on this, Durring a "Raid" you should be locked to the class you entered with.

in ffxi i job swaped for dynamisis lord, only part i hated was running back to town to change, i personally welcome this change. i like gear swaps for one, but job class swaps is just as fine, it will make half my rank75's usefull again. in ffxi i had 8 75's but i only used blm,rdm or brd 99% of the time, mnk only for kirin and dl, and bluemage only for ixions, ...so i think job swapings might fix this so everyone can switch around a little more and with little more ease.

any system that is fast easy and with no restictions to me is a good system, it will keep most people who play alot happy being able to do more then 1 class all day. and maybe classes that seem to not be wanted can still be used until the exact moments other kinds are needed. this is a good thing to me.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

That was the biggest load of crap...

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. Yes some class combos are better than others, but who said you HAVE to do them?

Its the same way in EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. EVER.

I would pick apart your post, but its pointless. You are thinking about everything too much. YES archer and CON is currently the strongest combo, but it evens out later on when you have more skills to choose from. I promise.

The dungeon and ALL content is doable by a party with no archers or nukers and one healer.

People would rather COMPLAIN about how good archer and conjurer are against CURRENT game mechanics than figure out how to make good use of the other classes.

This is going to cause a nerf to classes that don't necessarily deserve it simply because lazy people can't be bothered to take the time and figure out how/where to use the rest of the classes.

Lazy people... seriously...


Get on your lancer and DON'T STAND IN THE FIRE.

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but its so hard to dodge! we can't even pull the ogre cause of firespit..wipes our party right at the start...darkhold needs a nerf!

/s

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

How are they lazy at all when LNC and MRD aren't good classes period no matter how you cut it compared to other classes. LNC and MRD can do the dungeons but not effectively, and why would anybody bring someone in a dungeon that isn't effective? This is a product of mobs and classes.

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mrd is actually very effective...high hp and can generate lots of enmity through dmg.

tanking the ogre and batraal is really all about avoiding tp moves, not mitigating dmg taken from every attack.

also the direction i think games are (should)starting to take are fast gear weapon changes that instantly change your moves or spells making your game play different with any swaps you make (like gw2) i think changes, and the ability to play differently one minute then the minute after. though it needs to be fast and easy. ffxiv needs lot of changes to do this, memory for gears for one, and memory for moves and spells, and have all of them swap in and out pretty much instantly with just the switch of the weapon.

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and the ability to play differently one minute then the minute after. though it needs to be fast and easy.

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...
Sounds more like a description of a kid with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder than a RPG.

I have a solution.

Release the Samurai class and I promise I will never change classes again in a raid.

Edit: Like this post if you like this post!

I loved gear swaps tbh. Gear changing was instant, not hard to macro and gave me lots of stuff to work towards. Haste TP set, different stat stacked sets for different weapon skills, evasions sets, tanking sets, town sets, multi-hit sets, etc. An endless stream of goals, especially since some of the gear require long mission lines to unlock CoP areas, NM camping, high level crafting, assaults, bcnms/ksnms etc etc.

Job swaps... no thanks not interested. Swapping skills and equipment is slow and annoying in this game with the 1 second pause between each equip action. Not to mention I don't want to play another job just because some douche thinks it's more efficient. I'm trying to have fun, and to do that I'll play a class I find fun, not one someone else wants.

At least with gear swaps I could play the class I want, and be the absolute best I could possibly be at it.

I hope this is a joke.. A baaaad joke... Gear swaps, [No, thank you!]

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Originally Posted by Jem

SOAPBOX:

Like many others that hoped for FFXIV to be their MMO home for years to come (post or even parallel with FFXI), i check back often to read these forums and sometimes play for a few hours to see how things are going. What i have learned from a few months of consistent play in the past and now from months of reading these forums regularly is this: the FFXIV community is one of the most VILE and DISTURBINGLY FICKLE group of BOTTOM-FEEDING online denizens i have ever encountered.

I'm sorry to be dramatic but it's true. Yes, there is such a thing as constructive criticism and yes the game does need it, SE knows that, but responses to forums like this one and the NIGHTMARE that was FFXIV official forums after the last update (seriously!) were just depressing.

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You've never been to the Diablo 3 forums then have you haha. That place is a cesspool and almost makes me embarrassed to be a diablo fan. Unfortunately the blue posts make it worth wading through the garbage.

I have a few points I'd like to make regarding this discussion...

Hasn't yoshi said he wants players to be rewarded for strategic and intelligent play rather than just mowing through content? Which sounds more like what he meant: everyone switching to CON to nuke the crap out of everything, or you work with what you have and play to your strengths and compensate for your weaknesses? Isn't this exactly the kind of reason they changed the way bonus SP was rewarded for guildleves, cuz people found a way of gaming the system to get what they wanted without the intended required time and effort?

I don't think the armory system was designed so you can meta-game a dungeon. I mean, after all, they did describe these dungeons as supposedly being difficult. Instead, I think the armory system was designed so you don't have to make Alts if you feel like trying a different class, and so that you can fill a party role IF IT WAS NECESSARY (everyone switching to CON or Gladiator or whatever just to mow through stuff is not "necessary" and isn't the same thing as thinking to yourself "hey, our party needs a tank, and I just so happen to have my gladiator at 45. I'll offer to switch from lancer.").

Furthermore they designed the game with the casual gamer in mind. Well guess what: the casual gamer does not have the time to level several classes to 50 just to experience less than an hour of content. Do you really think that when the game is released for PS3 that new players are gonna get to 25 and enjoy being told "No you cant do Toto-Rak because you still need to level conjurer and gladiator to 25?" They'll laugh and quit. Designers want you to experience their content, and they want you to have a sense of accomplishment when you finish it. Casual players won't get to experience dungeon content if they spend all their time leveling classes they'll only use for a few minutes, and there's no sense of accomplishment when everyone is forced to play a class just cuz it's easy-mode for a boss fight.

So I'm sorry to break it to you, but this logic some of you have that dungeons are made in such a way that parties are required to have members whom all have several leveled classes is faulty. It doesn't make sense with the vision SE has been spewing at us for months. It would honestly make more sense to make dungeons for JOBS (not classes) and lock you in that job. They ARE party-specific content, so they should require party-specific gameplay (there's already a minimum requirement of party members, how about a job requirement? And lock us into that job for the duration of the dungeon. I bet we'll see intelligent and strategic game play then).

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Originally Posted by KitCat

You've never been to the Diablo 3 forums then have you haha. That place is a cesspool and almost makes me embarrassed to be a diablo fan. Unfortunately the blue posts make it worth wading through the garbage.

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lol, I too am a Diablo and starcraft fan, i was actually thinking of them both when i said that online games tend to have some micro-managing built into gameplay. i sometimes read blizzard forums but soon regret it but that is mostly from the "i want a pony" kiddies that post.

Here it's like people get edgy at the mere mention of FFXI or anything that was in FFXI. I think it's safe to assume that some don't want a game like WoW/Rift or other spammy MMOs and thats one thing, but to get up in arms when you mention a MMOs own predecessor is just silly. To use diablo as an example you wouldn't expect people who liked Diablo 2 not to start playing diablo 3 just becouse Diablo 2's servers are still up would you? Yes FFXI is still arround and yes people can go back a play it (most have) but that doesn't mean people don't want the next big thing. FFXI found a niche, it tapped into something and has been greatly successful for it. If FFXIV could follow in FFXIs footsteps and find it's own niche that's the ONLY way this game can get past all it's baggage, it will never be a *insert MMO title here* killer.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

...
Sounds more like a description of a kid with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder than a RPG.

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ff13 maybe? we got to switch between 3diff classes at same time, and swap in and out other classes as well, u'r insults are just rediculous. stop picking out something u can attack cause your the real child. and your disorder is probably old age and not being able to move along with the times and how games keep getting more and more complex not more and more easier. but hey this is mmo's and they want everyones 16bucks a month anyway.

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Originally Posted by Alkoun

I have a few points I'd like to make regarding this discussion...

Hasn't yoshi said he wants players to be rewarded for strategic and intelligent play rather than just mowing through content? Which sounds more like what he meant: everyone switching to CON to nuke the crap out of everything, or you work with what you have and play to your strengths and compensate for your weaknesses? Isn't this exactly the kind of reason they changed the way bonus SP was rewarded for guildleves, cuz people found a way of gaming the system to get what they wanted without the intended required time and effort?

I don't think the armory system was designed so you can meta-game a dungeon. I mean, after all, they did describe these dungeons as supposedly being difficult. Instead, I think the armory system was designed so you don't have to make Alts if you feel like trying a different class, and so that you can fill a party role IF IT WAS NECESSARY (everyone switching to CON or Gladiator or whatever just to mow through stuff is not "necessary" and isn't the same thing as thinking to yourself "hey, our party needs a tank, and I just so happen to have my gladiator at 45. I'll offer to switch from lancer.").

Furthermore they designed the game with the casual gamer in mind. Well guess what: the casual gamer does not have the time to level several classes to 50 just to experience less than an hour of content. Do you really think that when the game is released for PS3 that new players are gonna get to 25 and enjoy being told "No you cant do Toto-Rak because you still need to level conjurer and gladiator to 25?" They'll laugh and quit. Designers want you to experience their content, and they want you to have a sense of accomplishment when you finish it. Casual players won't get to experience dungeon content if they spend all their time leveling classes they'll only use for a few minutes, and there's no sense of accomplishment when everyone is forced to play a class just cuz it's easy-mode for a boss fight.

So I'm sorry to break it to you, but this logic some of you have that dungeons are made in such a way that parties are required to have members whom all have several leveled classes is faulty. It doesn't make sense with the vision SE has been spewing at us for months. It would honestly make more sense to make dungeons for JOBS (not classes) and lock you in that job. They ARE party-specific content, so they should require party-specific gameplay (there's already a minimum requirement of party members, how about a job requirement? And lock us into that job for the duration of the dungeon. I bet we'll see intelligent and strategic game play then).

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I enjoy your fleshed out way of thinking but 2 things:

The game was not designed for casuals in mind, they made it very clear that the game was meant for a wide range of play-styles that "included" casuals.

That brings me to the second thing; by asking for jobs to be locked there-by changing the armory system's freedom you are cater to "your" play-style, when the system already allows you to play that way.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Please like this post if:

You like posts because the OP of a thread tells you to like his posts.

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hahahhaah funny!

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

You didn't need a "poll"

Post your opinion in your OP, people will like it if they agree with you....
You don't need a post for the thread and then 2 more for "if you agree with me" and "if you disagree with me"

Makes you look like you are just hunting for likes.

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Man this is jus awesome!?

OT: no limits on what we already have please.

thanks

I think job swapping should stay, mid dungeon or whatever... I jus wish they made it so that EVERY TIME you didnt have to set up your action bars, like they just got grey'd out when u learn them but dont have the proper class... then you could atleast have 3 different action bars, 2 for ur main job and 1 for the last.... goddamn macros and having to replace all my skills... this is the #1 reason I haven't leveld up ANY other class... and it's hurt me in the long run but I survive....


please god SE make a new menu for job switching... like the equipment manager for WoW would be handy if you added in 'Action bars' and then it just switched everything with a single button click...... (pretty good idea? I kno rite? I R smrat)

Job swaps rofl /facepalm. Just a player invented hassle to put some sort of meaning on their massive amount of time spent on multiple jobs.

Dear SE, It's time to put a 10min debuff on job swapping in dungeons, 100% less damage and healing done untill buff wears off.

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Originally Posted by Jem

sorry maybe i wasn't clear. Some people were going as far as asking for class/job restrictions once you enter a instance or something to that effect. That WOULD be hurting the game for people who are fine with the CURRENT system.

If anything they should be looking at ways to improve class-switching so it's not as cumbersome but iirc they already said that is in the pipes as with other improvements to the UI.

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and u wanting to let ppl change classes would hurt the system the ppl want its ur idea that u want them to do thus forcing it on other ppl im not attacking ur idea im just saying ur doing it too

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Originally Posted by weeble

ff13 maybe? we got to switch between 3diff classes at same time, and swap in and out other classes as well, u'r insults are just rediculous. stop picking out something u can attack cause your the real child. and your disorder is probably old age and not being able to move along with the times and how games keep getting more and more complex not more and more easier. but hey this is mmo's and they want everyones 16bucks a month anyway.

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lol how may ff fans actually liked 13? i bought 1-12 and saw 13 and said fuck that (thats me atleast)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I have already voiced my opinion on this, Durring a "Raid" you should be locked to the class you entered with.

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+1 on this. It's ok to be able to change class in open world but during instance raid, dungeon, w/e I think locking the class or having some penalty for changing class should happen.

I read the blog and when I saw the part it talks about GLA should be able to change class to ARC... didn't make me too happy. Specially when this info is coming from Famitsu blog...