"To Improve PvP game balance, the ability Cleric Stance will no longer be usable"

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Congratulations FFXIV community, for taking away other people's fun just because you're having slightly less of it.

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Now you sound like the whiner because you no longer have the elephant that can stomp on ants. "buuuuuuut mom... I dont like being on equal terms with the opposition".

Even though I think the healer classes are a bit too OP in PVP, the removal of CS is a bit much. They should have either made it so you lose your ability to heal while it was on, or further reduce your ability to heal while in it.. instead of just downright abolishing it.

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

Let's get real. Can a healer rely on a paladin to cover them in PvP? Hell no.

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Yes, healers should be able to be 100% independent in a team based activity. Teamwork and strategy should not be a focal point in group PvP at all.

EDIT: Some people can't tell I'm being sarcastic...

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

Let's get real. Can a healer rely on a paladin to cover them in PvP? Hell no.

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WTB Premade.

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Originally Posted by Klive

Yes, healers should be able to be 100% independent in a team based activity. Teamwork and strategy should not be a focal point in group PvP at all.

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"Should" being the operative word. But they can't.

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Originally Posted by Klive

EDIT: Some people can't tell I'm being sarcastic...

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Lol this is the second time I've failed to read your sarcasm this week. Poe's law at work I guess. Actually, I just totally misread it.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

If you mean that you're dying to a WHM in a 1v1 situation, then you're just plain bad.

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Or you just suck at whm.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

WTB Premade.

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Lol. You know what's funny? Let's look at two threads and two responses that are all over this community

Thread 1: ZOMG NERF HEALERZ!
Poster 1: If you can't down a healer alone, then maybe you should run with a premade or burst with another player.
Poster 2: What? I shouldn't be required to rely on anyone else to take down one person! That's ridiculous! That's not balance! Screw teamwork!!!

Thread 2: Good riddance Cleric Stance!
Poster 1: Yeah, you can't rely on another teammate to be one of your few sources of survival.
Poster 2: WTB Premade.

Thanks for the consistency, FFXIV community. Glad to know we're holding all other classes to the same high standards as healers.

That was one of my specialties being an aggressive healer.. Even though I dont like this idea I think in Frontlines it not that much of a big deal it will just take long to 1v1 a player.. But where it will really hurt me as SCH is in the Wolves Den because the battles are that much more intense and aggressive.. So yea thanx SE =/

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Originally Posted by DenebPunkin

This is gold. If they dont run away to safety... because WHY should a healer run away to safety right.. I mean clearly they dont wanna win anymore. DPS have a skill to heavy and remove sprint, but a healer can just throw their Invisi Shield up and regain enuff TP to sprint away again. A competent DPS against a Competent Healer results in the healer coming out victorious more often then not. This means one class has a clear advantage over the other.

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I'm having an incredibly difficult time understanding what you're saying.

I'm saying that if a healer doesn't run away, they will die.

You're saying that a healer will always try to run away. Yes, I agree. And yes, they are almost always successful in doing that.

I don't see your point. I don't think you have one.

Read the rest of my post. Imbalance is built into PvP roles. It's not a bad thing. If you don't want some roles to be better than other roles in various situations, then PvP might as well be level sync to 1 and everyone only gets to use auto-attack, because that'd be the only way to achieve true parity in roles.

Just because someone's a healer and you're a DPS doesn't mean it should be an auto-victory if you catch them solo.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

Or you just suck at whm.

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WHM has no tools to defeat anyone solo. What are they going to do, kite you to death while spamming Aero for a whopping 85 potency every 2.5 seconds?

Stuns/silence cut Equanimity's utility in half. Another well-placed stun/silence breaks Surecast. If the WHM magically manages to land 3 repose and 3 binds, that's 6 Stone IIs. Only the first Holy provides enough delay to cast a follow-up Stone II.

So yes, if the target does absolutely nothing to stop a WHM from casting, then they may just do enough damage to kill them.

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Originally Posted by Klive

Yes, healers should be able to be 100% independent in a team based activity. Teamwork and strategy should not be a focal point in group PvP at all.

EDIT: Some people can't tell I'm being sarcastic...

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If healers were defenseless or lacked utility outside of a group context in Frontlines, we'd see way fewer healers inside Frontlines.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

If healers were defenseless or lacked utility outside of a group context in Frontlines, we'd see way fewer healers inside Frontlines.

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I heard same statement when Blizzard applying 30% healing reduction on the PvP zone. Nope, healers are adopted to it.

Thinkin all of this in cold... Maybe this is what SE wanted... I mean, less healers or NO healers in Frontlines so no long battles and everything being a kill-death festival.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

WTB Premade.

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Yea I would like to buy one as well. Oh wait GC restrictions due to "lore".

Funny how the lore states healers should do damage and heal as well. The reason why we were given cleric stance to begin with. I guess some lore is more important than others. lawl

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

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case in point. You aren't going to roflstomp through a competent dps, but you have far more than enough tools to outlast a dps class, and thats what it comes down to if you are dumb enough to enter a 1 vs 1 against a whm.

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Stuns/silence cut Equanimity's utility in half. Another well-placed stun/silence breaks Surecast.

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If you throw out clutch skills like these without the safe prerequisites being met, then you are dumb and deserve to die.

A whm is designed to be able to survive 3 DPS in WD. They aren't going to die vs a lone DPS in a pure 1 on 1 situation when we have so much kiting ability through cc and sprint, DS'd hots, and not to mention los. Though we do gimped DPS, the DPS classes have no real means to overcome this damage and if you are dumb enough to stick around it will inevitably lead to your demise.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

You do realize that (not including pet damage) in Cleric Stance a Scholar almost equals a Summoner in damage potential?

Cleric Stance let you be both a DpS and a Healer.

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I have never seen a smn beat my top dmg (i know people out there have done it, but i have never witnessed it). i top damage in about 3/4 of my frontline games
(SCH)

we needed balancing but that is the dumbest shit i have ever heard of. someone on the dev team has a serious case of the downs

I have been abusing cleric stance since wolves den was launched, on a regular basis i can out damage the entire enemy team(put together). they have had nearly half a year to address the sch damage problem.... and this is how they do it.... such a simple and poor solution to an old problem... amateur night at the SE dev department

I think that someone didn't figured that if a healer switch in Cleric Stance his healing potency will be nerfed,
u can't simply stay always in cleric, u have to use it in the right way and also if u use it wrong usually you give an opportunity to the opponent to kill all your party.
Not very rare thing to see a haler that think to de a DPS and got bursted in 10 sec.

In my opinion you are a good Helar if u can support the party even with your DPS, in FFXIV this is really trivial cause of Cleric Stance.

Anyway I agree that the party made all of WHM should be nerfed, it was just tricky, but this is an almost nonsense flat nerf to make happy people that couldn't kill an healer 1v1 (obviously in my opinion).

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Originally Posted by Geologo

I think that someone didn't figured that if a healer switch in Cleric Stance his healing potency will be nerfed,
u can't simply stay always in cleric, u have to use it in the right way and also if u use it wrong usually you give an opportunity to the opponent to kill all your party.
Not very rare thing to see a haler that think to de a DPS and got bursted in 10 sec.

In my opinion you are a good Helar if u can support the party even with your DPS, in FFXIV this is really trivial cause of Cleric Stance.

Anyway I agree that the party made all of WHM should be nerfed, it was just tricky, but this is an almost nonsense flat nerf to make happy people that couldn't kill an healer 1v1 (obviously in my opinion).

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Exactly. What I said a lot of times, USing cleric stance requires of very good analysis of the situation, control, balance, timing, and perfect synchrony between healing and DPSing. Not having to use Cleric Stance anymore highly turns the classes into something boring.

And remember, for all those who haven't healer but like to whine about this skill, here's what it does:

When activated, Mind is changed to Int, you obtain +10% offensive power, your heals are reduced 20, 20, 20% (Meaning, if you have 500 mind, 200 int, you have 200 int and -200% healing in cleric stance, It's not a super overpowered skill as some people thinks, just a good skill in good hands, something you have to learn to use wisely. Cleric Stance can be the doom for healers that can't properly control it. Now in PvP there won't be any differences between the masters of the Cleric Stance and plain healers.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

A healer will always lose to a competent DPS in a 1v1 battle if they don't run away to safety. The only exception is if the DPS is a BLM. You just never see this happen because it takes probably between 30-60 seconds to burn down a healer, and they can usually run to safety in that time.

If you mean that you're dying to a WHM in a 1v1 situation, then you're just plain bad. If you're dying to a SCH in 1v1 situation, that's to be expected.

There are plenty of other matchups where one job will win against the other: BRD > MNK/DRG/PLD/MRD > SMN > BLM.

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Not sure if saying BLM is incapable of killing a healer or if it takes a long time. I've blown up countless solo healers as a BLM(may it be WHM or SCH) in a matter of a few gcds.

Second, on my WHM I "was" capable of owning 2 dps/tank on my WHM by using CCs and the "environment" around me to my advantage(Thank you WD).

Third, I don't understand your priority list if it is that.

--Bard has the advantage over BLM/SMN (LoS'ing FTW!) & PLD
--DRG and MNK demolishes BRD, BLM, and SMN(SMN to an extent).
--Tanks wreck DRG and MNK
--SMN dances around PLD and WAR/MRD
--Compotent BLMs showed Healers who the real caster was.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

As far as I can remember, there was a lot of stink that a healer (I believe Sch was the biggest offender, but whm maybe) could use cleric stance and just tank a light party, sch in particular could use their pets to keep themselves alive and cleric stance to attack everyone around them.

I could be wrong though.

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The issue is this never ever happened against competent players. I dont care what the terrible players that visit this forum say. It was not needed at all.

This is simply SE catering to the lowest common denominator. This is why so many ACTUAL PvPers are angry. It was a massive nerf that was never needed.

Nevermind they completely fucked WD with it too...

[QUOTE=VahnValbosce;2441401]SnipQUOTE]

and right here we have the prime example of the lowest common denominator. You were already given a huge way to deal with SCH through dispelling Aetherflow (which im sure nobody does- cause like i said. Bad.) There is honestly very little reason to bring a SCH to anything now after this change.

Also that SCH that did 100k damage? Yeah he #1 most likely never killed anything. Our full 4 DoT combo does 2k damage on a dummy, without even considering being synched down. Thats 2k damage over 30 seconds SO STRONG.

#2 was most likely not even a SCH for part of the match. Endgame screen only shows the class you are on when the game ends.

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

[...] Now in PvP there won't be any differences between the masters of the Cleric Stance and plain healers.

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Yes, and this (up to me) make the healer role really flat.
Also Conjurer/WHM has a lot of skill to help other and survive by itself: Heavy (stone), Repose, Bind, (Virus, eye for Eye).
SCH instead saw his best ability nerfed in PvP, Miasma, that was really useful even for run away.
In my opinion the support that a SCH can give is his DPS, infact it started as DPS class.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

Also that SCH that did 100k damage? Yeah he #1 most likely never killed anything. Our full 4 DoT combo does 2k damage on a dummy, without even considering being synched down. Thats 2k damage over 30 seconds SO STRONG.

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I explained it today to my brother xD
With DoT u can kill, but they are really useful in 1v1, bucause after 4 cast you did almost all the DPS that you need and you can focus on heal yourself.
But in a group when you cast DoT and spread themwith Bane, probably you won't kill anyone, causa of a Medica II or a Regen that would be casted anyway, ignoring if you have a DoT or not, but in that case the support of Fester is really the big difference between SCH and SMN, becuase the SMN will kill his enemy really fastly if he casted his DoT (I tried with raging strikes + DoTs + Fester + Ruin II + Energy Drain, after Dots the enemy receive really huge damange in really little time amount).

Anyway I'm sorry if I was rude in any post before this, and the fact that this theard (and the other one) became more an individual attack among player it's pretty sad.
Let's try to talk about it in order to find the right thing to do.

In my opinion we should list the problem due to healers (Like haler stacking, turtling, Heal>DPS...),
find which one all of us think that are really umbalanced,
post suggestion to improve balancement whithout hardly modify the nature of the original class/job, but maybe modify the game mechanics.

As a brd, me kinda have mixed feelings about this. Never found whms with cleric stance to be a game breaker (personally I find schs considerably more a pain) as, like Yuri said, you can punish their teammates for their dpsing- playfullness ;x Solo ya (probably moreso in WD where ya HAVE to deal with one) but overall I still can't see why Yoshi chose to pick on you guys. Even so, me find the thought of less healers all around to be heavily appealing as it means more sexy death, less-cure-bombed-back-to-life-so-I-can-kill-you-who-doesn't-have-a-healer-assisting-you. In short, to all you wonderful healerz: QUIT YER BITCHIN' BEFORE WE PETITION YOSHI TA TAKE AWAY YER ATTUNEMENT TOO!" *ahem* sorry.

So after trying a few pvp games without clericstance on my SCH, gotta say it wasn't horrible. I was still able to 1v1 any dps and win, just took ALOT longer. At first I didn't like that whm had repose fluid aura and all that seems like they had more CC, oh and holy (which I bet will be nerded soon). But even tho whm has all these, we schs do have a balance to their CC, Eos. Eos can freely cast on me while I am getting hit, which is why I place her slightly away from me so she doesn't get hit with any AOEs that are targeted on me.

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Originally Posted by Avirex92

So after trying a few pvp games without clericstance on my SCH, gotta say it wasn't horrible. I was still able to 1v1 any dps and win, just took ALOT longer. At first I didn't like that whm had repose fluid aura and all that seems like they had more CC, oh and holy (which I bet will be nerded soon). But even tho whm has all these, we schs do have a balance to their CC, Eos. Eos can freely cast on me while I am getting hit, which is why I place her slightly away from me so she doesn't get hit with any AOEs that are targeted on me.

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And people tend to forget one thing... Against one good player, you as Scholar won't be able to put ALL THE DOT... Because they move all the time behind you while you cast or so and you fail bios II and miasma... Most of the time against them your raw damage is aero + bios and ruin II or energy drain... If that's so overpowered.

Or just that I was a noob my little days as Scholar there... But only could put miasma and bios II sometimes and if taking them under guard, when they got close it was impossible, interruptions + movements... But, ah, yeah, of course, you can heal yourself so you're overpowered!... (We can still can heal ourselves now?! D:)

Oh noes! Tarta was about to go back to FFXIV for PVP, but...unable to use Cleric stance...yeah...relying on other players for the dmg...

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Originally Posted by Vaeria

Even so, me find the thought of less healers all around to be heavily appealing as it means more sexy death, less-cure-bombed-back-to-life-so-I-can-kill-you-who-doesn't-have-a-healer-assisting-you.

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you seem to forget ... you will not have a healer assisting you either and you being a brd, a class which dies in 2 seconds, i wouldn't be celebrating too hard. you will be at equal vulnerability. i find it funny that so many people on these forums think these changes only affects their enemy healers and not their own, as if they are somehow exempt or an exception.

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you seem to forget ... you will not have a healer assisting you either and you being a brd, a class which dies in 2 seconds, i wouldn't be celebrating too hard. you will be at equal vulnerability. i find it funny that so many people on these forums think these changes only affects their enemy healers and not their own, as if they are somehow exempt or an exception.

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Played some matches last night, everything seemed fine. Really refreshing to have a free flowing game as opposed to the quagmires that were all too common the last time I set foot in FL. You can put down your pitchfork now I think.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Played some matches last night, everything seemed fine. Really refreshing to have a free flowing game as opposed to the quagmires that were all too common the last time I set foot in FL. You can put down your pitchfork now I think.

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bro you're on a JP server which doesn't even have the same issues as the NA ones. you're like in here bragging about driving a Jaguar when most of us are on NA servers which is like driving a Pinto.
Come to Primal or Aether and you'll be just as miserable dealing with FL like alot of us. or better yet, go to Chaos, i hear Frontlines has "Flatlined" even worse over there because they have so few servers and possibly a dwindling population as well.

Odd, all this talk how the healer is broken and how healers wont be found in PvP, yet I have yet to play a Frontlines without at least two healers per group since the patch. This Aether Data Center as well.

Have not tried PvP since the patch, honestly. Are there healers yet?

Plenty to be perfectly honest. Yet to see a group without one... but I'm one limited data point on this matter.

I think there are way less healers in frontlines since the patch and i was already forced to solo heal a lot of frontline-games. And i think i dont need to tell you, that one healer isnt enough for group of randoms.

Thanks for sharing, I guess I'll take a look around to how's the scenario now, with some other class, of course, maybe throwing a dice and choosing the non healer classes randomely... Or just going with monk the first because like it.

I'm in Zodiark so I'll see what's going on in [*insert Zodiark's data center name here*] data center.

I did few frontlienes in these days but, yes there was a lack of healer, and to be honest It's my fault too,
with this nerf I find the healer that only heal role really boring, so I try to enter BLM, but a lot of time I had to switch healer anyway because of no-healer in my party.
And in my opinion now (atleast for healers) frontline started to become similar to Wolves' Den when your main job in most of cases is "run as fast as u can and don't die" :(

Edit: Chaos Data center (Ragnarok server)

Also On Aether and no real problem. Half my matches had teams with 4+ healers on it. Same of usual. Cant say I notice any chance on consistency of healers.

The claim that we see less healers actually contradict earlier rhetoric. People where defending Cleric Stance saying it was a high skill cap spell that only 5-10% of healers can use properly. My question is if only 5-10% bothered to use/learn cleric stance, why are people expecting 50-80% of Healers to suddenly leave FL ?

Scholar is the only class where two important cross class traits from PVE are now of little to no use in PVP. Protect only serves as a buffer against skills that remove beneficial statuses so they don't first remove one that isn't disregarded by the system, but it was worth keeping in my list of five cross class traits when you also account for the nuisance of swapping out cross class skills and getting a cool-down timer when between PVP and other things. But now another one has been rendered useless. If you were a caster who had to swap out raging strikes with something else because your class couldn't use it anymore in Frontlines, would you not find that to be an inconvenience? Or a DoW class who could no longer use Invigorate or Second Wind. I'm not drawing a correlation between the effects of Cleric Stance vs these skills, other than saying they're vital PVE cross class skills such that if you had to either swap them out and back again for one type of content (or leave them and be less effective where they are disabled) you might decide it's not worth the hassle. ESPECIALLY if you're drawing parties that chase off their own targets and leave 5 enemies on you while you're supposed to be capturing or holding an objective.

Tried PvP with my scholar again. slow, boring, plain...

Needed to do few dungeons in PvE for recovering SCH's steem.

Equip INT gear.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Equip INT gear.

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Ya...if Healers were doing so much DMG wearing ViT for HP + Cleric... what do you think is going to happen when they start wearing all INT? possibly may even do more dmg then before?
which will give ppl more reason to complain. Healers are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I think I will test it out today.

What I'll say only apply to SCH. It can be used on a WHM, but with weaker results.

You just need to switch to INT accessories. It will bump your INT a bit while reducing your VIT and MIND, but doing this will grand you a more "decent" damage output. You obviously won't be able to reach the previous amout of damage you were able to do as a SCH, when Cleric stance was available. It will just turn your role into a more offensive support, which is the role people here want to play. It's just not as effective as before.

Just remember to summon your fairy when wearing MIND gear, then switch to INT if you already have one or two healers (WHM preferably) in your group.
It will then be for you to decide if you want to loose some survivability and healing power in exchange of a better offensive power... You can see it as some kind of weaker Cleric stance that can be used only when out of combat.

... As for the WHM: don't even bother. Just play as a healer/CC role.