Hunt Mob Entitlement?

I always call out if i see hunts, only thing that annoys me is those that reset them and in turn i miss out in seals i would have otherwise received

There is a linkshell on Leviathan that feels entitled to every single hunt mark on the world server. Even after the recent changes, they still go out of their way to reset a target if others got to it first. And if another group downs it before they do, they commence with the butthurt rage. Behavior such as those in said linkshell are reasons why many others either a: don't participate in hunts anymore or not call out locations.

But no one is entitle for others to wait for a mark. If you get to it in time, then that is great, If you don't, there is always another time. I don't get mad if I miss out on a target (especially if it's one I need). I just wait for next time.

Resetting is against the TOS. No one resets on my server anymore.

I think that expecting people to engage in this feature the way you think SE intended is even more unreasonable than expecting every group on top of a mark to wait forever for every straggler to get there. The way hunts are played is the way we as a majority group decided to play them. I'm sorry, I don't think that is going to change. I can see why people vent about it, but no one will suddenly decide that you are right and stop using the means available to them to get as many seals in as little time as possible. You could say the system is being exploited, but that's just MMOs for you! Players will generally opt for any way to mitigate the repetitive grind developers bake into their games and it's a little odd to blame players for it.

As for the Ninja thing, honestly, if you are part of multiple hunting LS' and an FC which all communicate fluidly, it's almost impossible not to know the location of the next A Rank mark within seconds of it being discovered. It takes a long time for a single group to kill an A-Rank, if they manage to at all. By then, chances are someone will have seen the fight and called it out. In the end, it still will not have a been a single party killing the mob, since there's no claim system.

General M.O. for large hunting groups: If you find an A Rank mark, you call out to your group with the coordinates. When the whole group is in the right zone and at a safe proximity to the mark, you shout out to the zone, your FC and all your hunting LS'. Then you consider how far you are from the nearest teleporter, add the 20 or so seconds it'll usually take for the message to spread to the masses, and simply call out a reasonable pull time. You don't have to rack you brain over it. Just the act of doing so sets people's expectations and eliminates a lot of eventual whining.

Occasionally, there will be players who pull marks as soon as they get to them, disrupting everything under some supposedly principled pretense that this is the way it should be done, and people are selfish for wanting to make them wait (I always find that backward logic disturbing). I found that it often has nothing to do with principles. It's always cowardly sad people who simply crave notoriety and like the idea of affecting so many other people negatively and especially, anonymously behind an avatar. They're usually easy to spot because a bunch of people are constantly complaining about them. When someone like that is around, you simply make sure they are not part of any of your hunting LS'or FC, and you stop using /shout until you don't see them around any more.

All that said, although this is a relatively fair and inclusive system that insures most people get good progress, it doesn't help people who are semi afk and not actively hunting - leeching, so to speak. It doesn't help people who don't bother joining hunting LS' or FCs. It doesn't help people who don't yet know all the maps and the best shortcuts to get to places (ex: Mark in Mid to Northern LLN? Use Upper Decks --> Tempest Gate). This means there will always be stragglers who may complain because they couldn't get to the mark in a reasonable time, while blaming it on early pulls. It is impossible to include and please every single person in a fight, but we can make an effort to include a reasonable amount of people. I don't see how that hurts anyone. The only exception I can see is if there are multiple A Rank marks up simultaneously and things may need to be rushed. That doesn't happen that much though.

To notify your party, target the mark and:
/p <t> sighted at <pos>

To notify your FC and LS', target the mark and:
/fc <t> sighted at <pos>
/l1 <t> sighted at <pos>
/l2 <t> sighted at <pos>
/l3 <t> sighted at <pos>

To transmit clickable coordinates to you party, which you have received from an LS, your FC or a shout: click on the coordinates to get the flag on your map and:
/p A Rank Mark sighted at <flag>

To everyone else:
/sh A Rank Mark sighted at <flag>
/fc A Rank Mark sighted at <flag>
/l1 A Rank Mark sighted at <flag>
/l2 A Rank Mark sighted at <flag>

It may not be what some people think hunting should be like, but it is still hunting. It is still "Search and kill". It just happens to be a large coordinated group effort. Getting frustrated and disruptive because you'd like it to be 8 people instead 60 won't make people any less pissed at you for pulling at an unreasonable time. So doing it that way is not fun or fulfilling for some of you and in your eyes, that may justify pulling whenever you want, but it seems that the majority of people seem to disagree. Perhaps most people find some fulfillment in progressing faster too. The kicker is that this isn't even a zero sum game! People still get their seals and yet still complain. If this vocal minority feels "oppressed" by this, all I can say is wow - First World Problems...

There's only so much blame you can place on the community. You have to blame SE themselves for implementing the system they way they did and not foreseeing this happen. Considering spawn times and conditions are so erratic and it takes several hundred seals to buy anything good, it would take far too long to get decent rewards if everyone hunting the mobs hunted them the right way. So, the community practically implemented their own fix to try to share in the rewards. The downside is, not everyone agrees, thus the problem.

It's fine.
But it's a lot nicer to allow others to contribute, as well.

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

Resetting is against the TOS. No one resets on my server anymore.

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Exactly, and i shouted out to them the exact thing, and they were like meh no big deal.
So that day instead of 20 seals i would of for sure got, i only got 2 out of that hunt.

And Ganth which ls are you refering to FE?
The hunt ls2 i am in do no such thing, we just help each other out usually

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Originally Posted by Duelle

In the end, some have opted to show common courtesy instead of being cutthroat about it.

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Well that pretty much it, and i agree.....but you are NOT 'entitled' to that courtesy...it's given, not taken.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

This is wrong. Naoki has said he did not expect people to do what they did (hunt LS, alerting entire server), which clearly means they didn't intend for everyone, their fathers, and their dogs to join in on the hunt.

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This is why they should consider opening up a public test server. The players would have found the weaknesses, and SE could have made some different choices before implementing the system. It's gotten slightly better than it was with this last patch, but the rewards are still too high and the content is still too polarizing. Some servers have organized themselves, but that even that has brought its own level of drama. If you are even perceived as twitching the wrong way you are banned and blacklisted. It's as much to keep people out as it is to bring people in.

I hope that they obsolete this content soon and come up with a better method of casual progression. This was too much, too fast, and it should never have trivialized the level of effort needed to gear out in coil-class equipment.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

This is why they should consider opening up a public test server. The players would have found the weaknesses, and SE could have made some different choices before implementing the system. It's gotten slightly better than it was with this last patch, but the rewards are still too high and the content is still too polarizing. Some servers have organized themselves, but that even that has brought its own level of drama. If you are even perceived as twitching the wrong way you are banned and blacklisted. It's as much to keep people out as it is to bring people in.

I hope that they obsolete this content soon and come up with a better method of casual progression. This was too much, too fast, and it should never have trivialized the level of effort needed to gear out in coil-class equipment.

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PT servers generally won't be enough to really show certain content issues. The Hunt problem would definitely not have been found, due to the amount of players necessary at a given time. Not to mention the fact that you would also have to have even more players to be the "outside", so that they would experience the hate that would result. If anything, the PT servers would have reaffirmed their notion that it was acceptable (due to a much lower active population of players at any given time).

Seriously, public test servers really don't do much to reveal problems that involve needing a huge number of active players at any given time (like a live server would typically have). I know this because, for one example, I would frequent the PTR with WoW for years pre-patch times and issues concerning things outside of mechanics and bugs (mobs falling off the terrain, mobs/items not showing properly, etc) was rarely found problematic due to lower participation numbers compared to a live server. What are the odds that a much less populated game like FFXIV would have players spending every day and night doing Hunts 24/7 on a server that will not carryover their efforts? I'd say the likelihood is zero. All you would find are the folks that just want to see what the new content is like (log in to test servers to do a few things then never go back to it again), people who want to test raids, and people who want to find out what sort of things they should try to buyout on the marketboards to gain an economical advantage (I'm in this group).

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

If SE intended on hunts to be competitive PVE then they would have made it so the hunt mobs are claimed by the party that attacks it first. So I have no reason to believe this and to my knowledge SE has never claimed otherwise.

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I don't recall them ever saying we're supposed to share hunts with half the server either. And they went on to say the number of players each kind of rank of elite was intended for. They didn't have to bluntly state something that was obvious.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

This is wrong. Naoki has said he did not expect people to do what they did (hunt LS, alerting entire server), which clearly means they didn't intend for everyone, their fathers, and their dogs to join in on the hunt.

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Yoshida's reaction completely baffles me. I am at a complete loss for words. Why would he NOT expect people to do this? Has he even considered the sociological aspects of these games? People grouping up with one another to overcome challenges is the entire point of these games. Hell, the problem isn't that people aren't competing for the hunts. The problem is that he didn't adjust things to account for the servers working as a collective community to help one another, which he should be encouraging at every turn. Especially when its on the same server. That's numero uno on making a good end game.

I was in a party once, part of the biggest hunt ls in my server. Two marks were called at the same time, however, most people in the ls agree that the first mark called is where the zerg should go. Te marks found were Alectryon and Vogaal Ja, the former being called first. The person that claimed to have found Alectryon quickly teleported to Middle La Noscea to go aftyer Vogaal Ja. My party and others walked a long way to Cape Westwind for Alectryon and fought him. Once he was reported killed, the person that claimed to have found Alectryon started to demand names because he said that it was his hunt mob and that nobody in the server had the right to kill him, claiming that it was against the ToS to pull the mark that someone else have found and threw a tantrum like a 6 year old.

Seriously, it's like many of these people are spoiled brats.

I think it would be beneficial for everyone having this be a server wide effort. Otherwise, people would restrict access to hunt linkshells and spreadsheets to a small fraction of the server's population. This removes the hoard zerging down mobs and become the content it was intended.

However, who's to say this group of people won't monetize the Hunts? By being able to kill every mark off the radar because they are the only ones with the access to the hunt spreadsheets and linkshells, people would fall behind and get lost and cannot participate in these hunts because "It's working as intended". Sure, you may get lucky and find a few, but what are the odds given that you'd have no help tracking down the marks. No timers, no point of interest and definitely no callouts.

This may snowball until the point where overall seal gain would screech to a grinding halt. What we currently have is decent and can be improved for the better rather than the chaos described above.

Edit: Anyway, this is just an exaggeration for the whole "ninja" thing. Don't take it too seriously. :)

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Originally Posted by KamikazeMan

I don't recall them ever saying we're supposed to share hunts with half the server either.

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No, but the fact that everyone that touches the mob gets credit should say something. And regardless of how all of this works this is a social environment and there are social repercussions for the way people behave. The general consensus (of any decent human being) is that you wait a short time. On my server we shun the fast pullers and they are removed from hunt parties. Don't want to be a part of the community? Well, then, don't.

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

snippy

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That's just how the claim system works in XIV and I don't think it has anything to do with it. I also doubt people really blacklist early pullers....at least the people that matter on my server. Ever since hunts were introduced, I always only waited for my party to show up before pulling. I get nice /shout messages and some interesting tells, but I have yet to notice any kind of difference on PF or the way people treat me after 5 minutes of them raging. And the truth is, you can never wait long enough and will upset people regardless to how long you wait.

I don't think it's a good way to do hunts. If each party finding for marks and kill them with only one party, you'll get like 2-3 marks a day or so.

The party that strikes the mob first is usually the one who gets the most out of it. That leads me to believe these mobs are 'contested content'. Contested meaning whoever gets there first, gets the lion's share. There is no need to wait on the whole server to get there.

Nobody can give a clear answer on how long or for how many people should wait. Well I can. Wait till your party has shown up. Once everyone in the party is situated, pull it, kill it, and move on. Congrats on getting the seals.

This isn't being selfish or mean either. When the hunts first came out. I tried the waiting thing. I was able to get literally 30+ people there waiting until there was no one else 'on the way'. We pulled, mob died in 5 seconds, my group got no credit despite being the first ones there and doing the so called 'right thing' by waiting. That means these mobs were meant to be competitive.

There's always the duty finder to get myth/sold in a non-competitive environment.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

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Yep. I used to wait around for other people to show up (besides my party), but guess what? I got harassed anyway. I eventually got tired of it and just stopped caring about waiting on half the server just to be scolded anyway because no matter how long you wait, you will always leave somebody out and you will still be labeled as the bad guy/girl. I've gotten to hunts and have seen people wait literally 5 minutes for others to gather and when it gets pulled, people still get upset. Also, like you mentioned....being nice will most likely screw you over on seals, thus leading to you feel like you wasted your time waiting on people to show up. You can't please everybody and clearly hunts aren't for everybody. I enjoy hunts as open world competitive content, but the rewards are far too great and it causes hostility because people feel obligated to do hunts for those rewards as their only means of gear progression.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Nobody can give a clear answer on how long or for how many people should wait.

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As a rule of thumb? About 3 minutes. A little less if the hunt is right by the aetheryte (Sabotender and Marberry, for example); an extra minute or two if it's ridiculously far away (Melt especially, some others, too). That should be enough time for anyone paying attention to zone in and run to it, usually. Anything more is just being generous.

Of course, then you get situations where more than one pops at a time. Our LS tends to go in order they're called in within the LS, even if they were actually discovered in the opposite order. I was in a party that waited at Marberry for quite a while because we really didn't want to run all the way to Melt, who was called first, but that's no reason to go ahead and kill the one in front of us without the LS.

Also, my party is rarely the one to pull, yet we pretty much always get full credit. Not sure what your group is doing wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

The party that strikes the mob first is usually the one who gets the most out of it.

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I dunno who told you it works like this but they were wrong. Completely wrong.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

As a rule of thumb? About 3 minutes.

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Tried that too, still sketchy if you get credit or not, especially if there's a LS group gunning in on it.

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

I dunno who told you it works like this but they were wrong. Completely wrong.

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No one told that to me. I've experienced it that way.

Try it yourself.

Like I said before. Tag it as soon as your group is ready and unload on it.

I don't think you should be required to announce a hunt's location and wait a moment for people to show up, but since not announcing it doesn't really benefit you in any, way, shape, or form it seems borderline spiteful to keep it to yourself. People are going to show up late and bitch no matter how long you wait so that's a poor reason not to share.

I'll be one of the first people jumping to say SE clearly didn't intend for hunts to be zerged the way they are now and really should have foreseen this happening to begin with, but since that's how the community as a whole has decided to deal with it why not go with the flow?

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

No one told that to me. I've experienced it that way.

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lol... I don't think you understand how hunt contribution reward works. It not much different from FATEs.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

People are going to show up late and bitch no matter how long you wait so that's a poor reason not to share.

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Agreed. There's no reason to say "screw the system" just because a few angry children (although sadly probably 30 year old adults) are doing what they do best - whining and calling people names.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

This isn't being selfish or mean either. When the hunts first came out. I tried the waiting thing. I was able to get literally 30+ people there waiting until there was no one else 'on the way'. We pulled, mob died in 5 seconds, my group got no credit

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If you pulled it, you got full credit. That's how it works. I can confirm this as I have been solo, done nothing more than claim A-ranks and let the zerg kill them. 100% contribution. Several times.

If no-one in your group got any credit at all, you all managed to fail to hit the mob. Even one hit on the mob gets you a minimum of one seal.


If you honestly hold that you hit the mob and that your group pulled but nobody got any rewards, file a bug report because that's just not the way they work. Of course you could just be misremembering/lying.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

If you honestly hold that you hit the mob and that your group pulled but nobody got any rewards, file a bug report because that's just not the way they work. Of course you could just be misremembering/lying.

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I noticed she's a WHM. She might not be (sounds like she probably isn't) hitting the mob with anything before going into Medica mode.

Both ways are fine in my eyes, if a small group can take it down then cool, if the big groups find it and kill it then also cool. It's an open world mob so people have free reign to do what they like.

I personally prefer the huge hunt group we have on Excal, but if we come across a normal group attacking an A rank we stand back and let them fight it. If they die then we will engage, or if they've done a fair chunk of damage already we will engage. But nobody will ever complain about the small group claiming it first.

the simple fact is: you either make it to the mob in time; or you don't.

The problem is that the majority of the player base has decided on a playstyle that is neither fun nor challenging. So yes, if a group feels confident in its ability to take a mark, why not? If you want to roll with the zerg, more power to you, but I won't.... too much drama and complaining.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

No one told that to me. I've experienced it that way.

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I have. I'm almost never in the claiming group, and I almost always get full credit. If I get reduced credit, it's usually because not all of my group made it in time. If I get no credit, it's because I didn't attack the mob. Failing one of those two scenarios, I don't think I've ever *not* gotten full credit.

In short, you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

It not much different from FATEs.

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You're right, its not different than fates. As a Paladin you can flash spam everything in a fate, as a Black Mage you can scathe everything in a fate. And then let everyone else kill it and get full credit.

Aka, the first group that pulls gets full credit... Guaranteed. Everyone else have to compete with each other. If 'everyone else' hits the mob once for a few damage and there is enough people there that that 'few damage' each is enough to add up to kill the mob (as it was in my experience above) then credit goes a little 'wonky'. As in many people won't get credit and many will get little credit. But the first group that pulled the mob, will get full credit, regardless of the damage they did.

Hence.... you see the mob, get your group there and pull it as soon as possible. That's how it was designed. If its not how it was intended (design can be different from intent). Then they'll change it. But until then, grab it and kill it before it goes up to lady luck to decide who gets credit.

I don't have any problems getting full credit when my group doesn't pull first. What's your excuse?

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Everyone else have to compete with each other. If 'everyone else' hits the mob once for a few damage and there is enough people there that that 'few damage' each is enough to add up to kill the mob (as it was in my experience above) then credit goes a little 'wonky'. As in many people won't get credit and many will get little credit. But the first group that pulled the mob, will get full credit, regardless of the damage they did..

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And that's why healers are the best class to bring. Toss out a tiny attack and then spam Medica. If your party isn't afk, you'll get full credit.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

This is why they should consider opening up a public test server.

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Not convinced, in same games the PTS is used as a stick by some community members to beat those who voice a complaint Oh well, if you played on the PTS we wouldn't have these problems.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

This is wrong. Naoki has said he did not expect people to do what they did (hunt LS, alerting entire server), which clearly means they didn't intend for everyone, their fathers, and their dogs to join in on the hunt.

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I think it's a credit to the FFXIV players that, on the whole, we do try and co-operate :)