Fake experienced people in coil 2?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

snip

---

There's so much wrong in this post it's actually making my head hurt trying to think of where to start...

Let's go with "2. Forming practice parties hardly fills up for t6-9 because those are HEAVY progression at this point in time, therefore a lot of people would rather try to sneak into groups and get carried."

Really? So, that's your way of justifying it. You actually think it's fine to sneak into a T6-9 group for a carry, as you're too damn lazy to put the effort into forming a party and learning the fight yourself. Considering you think that's ok, I don't really know what else to say there. It's just a real shame that people like this are in the game.

You then go onto claim watching a video is having experience...jesus. No, it isn't. Experience is exactly that, experiencing it. Watching a T9 video doesn't make you anymore experienced the same as me watching the 100m doesn't make me Usain Bolt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeganLaron

You actually think it's fine to sneak

---

No where did I claim it was fine - You twisted it into that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

Why do you think people sneak in to begin with?

---

This totally says: "It's ok to sneak in." Right? Why do you think people sneak in? Majority of PFs are for experienced only, hence why people try to sneak in - I didn't say it was fine to sneak in.

As for experienced? Yes, watching a video technically gives you an experience as everything in FFXIV is scripted, meaning you at least have the experience of knowing what to expect, putting it into practice is a whole different ball game. Why do you think at minimum a lot of people want newer players to watch a video whether you agree or disagree? It's so you're not going in completely blind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cessna

Cept that Doesn't count

---

So if for example I don't have DRG or any plans to play WAR/PLD/SMN/BLM and in the 3 farm runs I did I mostly seen gear for those and I don't greed it...I suddenly don't have the ability to farm T5 because I can't link a drop? My example was specifically the PFs that state: "Link your T5 drop." It's really not that hard to believe not everyone greeds on everything even if they can't use it :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

So if for example I don't have DRG or any plans to play WAR/PLD/SMN/BLM and in the 3 farm runs I did I mostly seen gear for those and I don't greed it...I suddenly don't have the ability to farm T5 because I can't link a drop? My example was specifically the PFs that state: "Link your T5 drop." It's really not that hard to believe not everyone greeds on everything even if they can't use it :p

---

I didn't even comment on that, My sole focus of that post is on your comment about vids= experience.

It's not just players sneaking in and lieing, there's also players starting PF parties with no experience wanting kill xp members to carry them through also. Sometimes with 1 or 2 fails you are out. Funny how that never applies to the party maker :)

That second melee in the OPs post, if he had sent a tell to the party leader before and explained they werent sure about the final phase, maybe they could have explained to them, as the final phase in t6 is pretty easy to explain, maybe one wipe to show. But lieing gave himself a bad name to those who were involved.

To be blunt, if you join a kill PF party with no experience, you are wanting a carry. WHether it is reportable I don't know, as you agree to the rules set by the party and break them. Just like agreeing to loot rules then going against them which is reportable.

Players with no experience or minimal experience joining or starting kill parties in PF is why I don't bother anymore with PF parties. As 9/10 times they consist of players wanting to be carried.

Nope, many don't want to learn, they want to be carried by the rest for "easy shinies". From experience they usually the first ones to die, and the first to rage quit too :D

Note I said many, not all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

Why do you think people sneak in?

---

For a carry, plain and simple. You can try and try to spin it differently all you want, but everyone has access to PF, they are more than welcome to join, or make their own, learning party. If you don't know the fight yet lie and claim you've killed before, you're looking for a carry.

I don't know how many more times I can explain that to you, so think I'll just mosey.

I 1 shotted T7 only knowing the up to killing the 2nd add with an experienced PT. Watch videos and suck less.

Some people are forced to lie though, if you know the fight but don't have a static.

The problem with end-game fight is that since they are scripted, they can only be beated by a ground that it has perfectly memorized them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taruranto

Some people are forced to lie though, if you know the fight but don't have a static.

The problem with end-game fight is that since they are scripted, they can only be beated by a ground that it has perfectly memorized them.

---

No, they are NOT forced to lie whatsoever, they could easily send a PM and tell them their situation first. Or you know, form their own party and set their own rules. You may get a party that is stuck for a final member willing to give you a try and show your ability and knowledge of the fight.
Or, as some do, advertise their situation in PF and see what happens.

We sort of had that issue with pugging a whm for T6 wayy back. Our static whm was late which was odd for him. We didn't say they needed to have beaten it, but to be experienced up to the final phase at very least. The WHM we got died FOUR TIMES(or something around that number) to stupid things such as blighted bouquet and acid rain. On top of that she did very little healing if any at all. In the end we just let her eat the floor while I finished healing it. Healing boots dropped, which I already have, so she got them. She was rewarded for being terrible which was a shame imo. It was clear she didn't have any experience in it whatsoever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeganLaron

-snip-

---

I'm not sure I understand YOUr post. I didn't get Tupsi condoning the lying, but just explaining WHY people lie.

My mate is heavily in SCoB whilst I'm not. Last week he told me that they needed to fill a slot for a dps (he's in a static, but I'm sure a lot of statics will agree, some members will.not.show.up or they're late) and the monk they picked up said he had done the fight before - think this was T7. Halfway through the fight, they wiped. After some interrogation, Monk confessed he had never cleared and they booted him.

Apparently this happens a bit. I've heard only one or two lolhorror stories for him. But it's not uncommon.

SCoB seams effin hard though - so I can imagine the abbbssoooolute frustration a group gets with a pick up member who lies and then wastes an entire night.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

I think it's bad to lie about experience. That's grounds for kicking. Dishonest people shouldn't get any leeway.

---

Exstal wins the thread.

Not just coil 2, but all extreme and difficult content (even t5... hah)

This is why people request you link drops from previous wins or link to achievement showing the win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rankina

I just check for achievements if we need a rep. Don't have it, you don't get in. Blocked? Unblock them then. There are 7 others who want a fast clear, we're not interested in making a learning party, not till the lockouts are removed. To us, gear/wins > you at the current moment. Deal with it. (And if you say you have a win, and you don't, I just blacklist you and move on. Plenty of other people who can take your place)

---

This is a legit good way and I used to do it when I had static issues. Honest people have nothing to fear, dishonest people will call you names in a childish tantrum like the above post.

I always laugh when someone does that. Like i can see attempting to fake if youve been to last phase of a fight multiple times, but if you haven't it's going to be painfully obvious when you get there. Then the party will be looking at you like -_- -_- -_- -_- -_- -_- -_- lol

I joined a Turn 6 "clear party" last weekend in the PF.
I have not cleared Turn 6 prior due to static having people not show up etc etc, though we have reached phase 3.

I went in confident, as I know the fight and have studied it endlessly. I was asked if I'd been there before, I replied "Yes I've done this before." I did not lie. I did not say I've downed it.

Guess what? The rest of the party derped hard- tanks getting eaten, people completely failing to break vines by running parallel etc.... And my god, the phase 3 transition. Offtank continually let the slugs destroy the healers.

These guys had at least one piece of High Allagan gear each. Should I feel bad for entering a "clear party" when I hadn't downed it? Hell no. I performed excellently.
Should I have instead joined a "learning party" to see wipe after wipe with people who haven't already learned the fight, just because I don't have the achievement? No.
Point being- not all "fake experienced people" are bad. Some of us just want to get the damned content down but haven't so far due to causes OUTSIDE OUR OWN INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE.

clear does not mean experienced, and by gods i've had AWFUL party members of all jobs who have likely cleared (looking at their gear) but just still dont get it, or are too 'zoned out' to do their part.
probably easier if when each person joins - just ask them each time 'describe to me what your role is in this content'. Saves time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alexia89

Point being- not all "fake experienced people" are bad.

---

I think the point is, people faking without doing an iota of research on the fight.
Thats the problem, if you're familiar with the fight and can not wipe a clear party, then there is no problem.

I lie about my experience anyway. most of the time I do better than all the people in there claiming to have 4 or 5 wins. Maybe the entire party was lying.

There needs to be a way to set a level of experience for party finder groups. The server should record how far you've been in a fight (percentage) and then allow a party leader to select a level of experience for the fight based on this. If you want only people with experience of phase 4 or better in your T7 group you could set it to 35% or even 20% if you want people who are close to a clear.

It took me less than 2 nights to learn all of T7 yet 3 weeks to get my first clear because the only groups I could join were training parties that weren't going to win. Or I could have lied my way into a "must have previous clear" group. I prefer not to do that but the former groups aren't exactly for me in that situation either. In the end it took a 3+ hour PF group that required experience of all phases (instead of win) where we kept kicking people who sucked. That's the best way to get your first clear when you know the whole fight, but those groups are few and far between. They require a core of 5-6 members who will stick with the group long enough to replace bads and win. Most groups will disband after a few wipes.

I have thought about messaging party leaders before asking if I can join their "must have cleared" group telling them I know the whole fight but we all know how fast the BLM slot fills. By the time I message a party leader I won't be able to join because the slot is gone. The one time I did message a party leader I got ignored anyway. Funny enough it was the same night I went on to get my T7 clear.

yeah same happened to me in levi ex , i learned the fight with my FC a bit , 30mins of wipes and learning , then joined 2 PF "learning party" , in the last 1 we were close 10%-5% :(

so what i did after that? joined a levi extreme EXP only , and got my kill on the 1 try , never got touched by levi in that kill , then we farmed weapons ^^

the same can be said for ppl that are excepcional players that learn the encounter in 2 wipes but were unable to play for sometime , and are coming back now when content has been out for months. (coming back to a mmo too late sucks if u dont have ppl that will help u out a bit :P)

If every Coil group wants experienced people only, how are new people going to get experienced? Have fun when a huge chunk of our "experienced" raiders eventually burn out and you're left with the people who excluded before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xenor

There needs to be a way to set a level of experience for party finder groups. The server should record how far you've been in a fight (percentage) and then allow a party leader to select a level of experience for the fight based on this. If you want only people with experience of phase 4 or better in your T7 group you could set it to 35% or even 20% if you want people who are close to a clear.

---

This is a terrible idea and would make the game an elitist hell akin to when Gear Score first became a thing in WOTLK World of Warcraft.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Verranicus

If every Coil group wants experienced people only, how are new people going to get experienced?

---

Learning parties. What's wrong with that? I've seen almost daily on my server learning parties for coil and if you don't see one, make one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Verranicus

If every Coil group wants experienced people only, how are new people going to get experienced?

---

No one was experienced when I learned coil.

It is cute, how people demand to have it cleared at least once.
Or check "Que" with Ifrit.

Mercenary runs? anyone?
I haven't cleared Titan Ex yet. I will join farm groups without shame. Why? Because I know what is going to happen and when it is going to happen. I can play MONK keeping full rotation on back and flank because I know when it is save to do so.
Often those party leaders would step in every plume, fail to evade landslides or fail at the add phase.

It is your right to be annoyed if some "lulz lez doo zis" people join. But don't group everyone that doesn't have the experience you expect, with those annoying trolls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Verranicus

This is a terrible idea and would make the game an elitist hell akin to when Gear Score first became a thing in WOTLK World of Warcraft.

---

How is it terrible? At the end of the day if you can't be honest with a group then someone needs to make the choice about you joining for you and that should be the party leader.

If you have only seen 50% of the fight then surely you shouldn't be joining phase 3+ fights until you actually see that phase. It's called progression.

I think it would lead to more people giving you a chance because right now all you can prove is if someone has won before or not. Some of those win only groups may turn into phase 4+ groups if they could be sure you have that level of experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Princess_Rosilee

It's not a big deal. Everybody lies and what not. XD

---

This is why humanity is doomed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

I think it's bad to lie about experience. That's grounds for kicking. Dishonest people shouldn't get any leeway.

---

Right? Farming Garuda party couple months back and we get a new person.
New person dies. Repeatedly
Mount drops.
I roll a 96.
New person who died numerous times and never beat Garuda extreme before gets a free win and a free mount.
She beat me with a 98 >.>

People can be accustomed to running things diffirently. It doesnt make them inexperienced or bad.


I remember running Amdapor Keep back when that was popular atleast 50 times as a Paladin and probably another 40 times across diffirent classes/roles, but every 5-6 runs i'd get shouted at and called names, or even a liar for saying i did it before, because i pulled the first boss to the same place i've always pulled it to, but the party i got didnt agree with it and wanted me to stand somewhere else. Not to mention the one-two times someone went "Why didnt you take the big golem, you noob? Everyone always stuns it!" when i have never ever had anyone do that before.

Or a bit more relevant, Garuda EX when we agreed upon a NW-SE positioning instead of the NE-SW that the "video" handled.

Just because one person videotapes a fight in one specific way doesnt mean that it has to be fought exactly like that. There's way too many variables. The power of your DD party members, the type of healer you got, the type of tank, their ilvls, their HP pools.

Heck, i remember doing a random pickup shout for a speedrun, i pull the monsters i normally pull, the healer isnt paying attention and we wipe. It happens. Following that the two DPS disband and figure it's a good idea to shout for a good 2 hours in Mor Dhona about how we must have bought our relics and what absolute noobs we must be.

Remember:

1) Mistakes happen. No reason to get upset over it.

2) Someone can easily have cleared it before, but not have enough experience to reliably do it again due to diffirent party members, diffirent types of party members, diffirent powerlevels, etc.

3) And lets not forget, scripted fights like titan are one thing, but most things can be pretty random. You could be stuck in the wrong place when the wrong attack triggers.

4) Mistakes happen...

People lie about who they are , you think they won't when its come to a fight experience ?! .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xellos2099

I mean, gosh, if the pf saying be experienced and need prior win experience, please do so. There are still plenty of learning group for t6-8 everyday of the week. Before I got my win I am always honest with my experience. I recall my first t8 win I said to the leader, never win before, but seen allagan field. The leader say ok and I join the group and after getting some pointer from them we won at the end. Is it so hard to be honest about what you know to do? The monk i mention was not bad, but if he had mention he never won before we might have explain what he need to do and win instead of kicking him.

---

But isn't this the case for every party? Some people may actually do strategies differently (I know for a fact I've done positioning for Melusine like 3 different ways in different groups). Most mechanics are the same but it's always good since you have to rely on 7 other people to be clear and on the same page before starting any fight.

....But assumptions can lead to quick disappointments whereas communicating your strategy to make sure everyone is clear will at least give them an opportunity to prove whether they are worth their weight or not.

All SE would even have to do to mitigate this is set up a "cleared" check box with the rest of PF stipulations.

Then, if it's checked and someone who has not cleared the content tries to get in said PT, they won't be able to get in. Simple solution.

EDIT: Nevermind, I derped. The PF isn't set around the specific instance you're running. I forgot that >_<

That's why stuff like "experienced only/clear group" is a bunch of b/s.
If you want people who don't suck, just say "if you die to mechanic xyz you will be kicked."
This way, even if someone who actually has cleared it - but was basically carried through the run comes, you can remove them.
In the end it's not about "clear experience" it's about "do you know what you are doing."

I've partied with people who have never cleared something and were more competent than those who "supposedly have".

Remember that someone who has cleared something could be potentially a person who got carried or even purchased their clear and they're just as bad as a complete newbie to the fight.

I don't think basing humanity on my sarcastic comment is a very optimistic way of looking at things…o.O

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShinkuTachi

All SE would even have to do to mitigate this is set up a "cleared" check box with the rest of PF stipulations.

Then, if it's checked and someone who has not cleared the content tries to get in said PT, they won't be able to get in. Simple solution.

EDIT: Nevermind, I derped. The PF isn't set around the specific instance you're running. I forgot that >_<

---

It could be, if you're doing it right you can specify which content the PF is for (my favorite was a group listed as T5 that went to Ifrit Ex instead -_-) and then such a check could be made i suppose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

I think it's bad to lie about experience. That's grounds for kicking. Dishonest people shouldn't get any leeway.

---

"Hello, i'm over your ilvl requirement for Coil, I've watched ALL the videos, multiple times for hours to learn the fight, I know EXACTLY what i need to do and when to do it, But i've not killed it yet, can i join?"
Response:
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...angry-no-l.png

Every. Single. Time.
Is it any wonder people will just say they've cleared it when PF groups refuse well geared players a place simply because they have not gotten a killing blow on it yet? Despite being honest and even learning via videos and tutorials.

I love helping people, and sometimes join learning parties simply out of boredom. Sometimes I'll even MAKE learning parties for people (because I understand what it's like to be stuck on something and not be able to win because others aren't learning). But NOTHING annoys me more than when I put specific instructions in a PF comment only to have people join that clearly didn't read them, or just didn't care. I once set up a Titan (Extreme) win party for the weekly clear, and a dragoon joined and said in party chat: "I haven't gotten far in this fight but I need practice so I guess I'll just stay until you kick me." I thought he was joking at first, but he was serious. It made me really uncomfortable and then he finally left.

Another time, I made a T5 farming party (mostly FC people with a few open slots) and made it very clear we were just farming. Someone joined and caused us to wipe by messing up fireball/conflag. When we wiped, he said something like... "I thought this was a farming party." Insulting us... and then he got hit by divebombs, twisters, you name it. We were all chatting on mumble theorizing that he didn't know what he was doing... and then when we FINALLY got one clear (30 minutes later), we all see in the log that he received his first clear achievement. *facepalm* It just amazed me that he would insult us with stuff like "I thought this was a farming party?" and then clearly have deceived us the entire time.

As far as honesty... if people tell me they have gotten to the end but haven't beaten it... good enough for me if they are being TRUTHFUL. A lot of the time when I join learning groups to help out, I'll tell people... if there's anything you are unsure about, PLEASE ask. No judgment. If you don't ask, we can't help you. If we don't notice and point out your mistake, you won't realize your mistake. People need to be nicer about giving advice AND taking it.

LOL, you should come join Famfrit and do Levi EX parties. Every single time someone gets that "OMG, WTF, I thought this was a farming party" attitude, I think back to the number of times I had to raise them because they died. Or not raise them because they fell in the ocean.

Like I think someone else said...I kinda blame SE for these situations. Certain content being unable to DF it and also the fact that the lockout stops people from helping others. I really like healing SCOB and I would definitely join groups to help others if I could, but I get locked because I am in a static with friends.