Ishgard' s archbisschop

I just thought a crazy idea for a theory. Maybe the Dragons were sworn protectors of the aether/primal seal and only knew of the location, during the war between dragons and Ishgardians the Ishgardians learned the seals location. The Empire came into Eorzea and proposed that nations join them or burn. The Archduke in exchange for being left alone told The Empire of a large power source and where to find it. The Empire agreed and Ishgard closed its gates. And hence why dragons ate more pissed then ever

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Originally Posted by Xmbei

I just thought a crazy idea for a theory. Maybe the Dragons were sworn protectors of the aether/primal seal and only knew of the location, during the war between dragons and Ishgardians the Ishgardians learned the seals location. The Empire came into Eorzea and proposed that nations join them or burn. The Archduke in exchange for being left alone told The Empire of a large power source and where to find it. The Empire agreed and Ishgard closed its gates. And hence why dragons ate more pissed then ever

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So they betrayed Eorzea by snitching on the seal. Well that explains why they didn't join on the "Despair Event Horizon" conference then. "'tis bad comedy" indeed.

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Originally Posted by A_Magical_Unicorn_Rider

AFAIK, Twin has nothing to do with the Dravanians. It's implied that she and her ilk are remnants of Merisidia (can't be arsed to remember how that's spelled), which is a separate continent to the south, iirc.

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Not exactly. "Scourge of Meracydia" refers to the fact the Allagan Empire invaded that continent using dragons. it's the Scourge OF Meracydia, not FROM Meracydia. Twintania is just a bigger drake they also enslaved for war reasons.

But then why are the Ghosts of Meracydia also wyverns!?

That said yes, I typically agree with the above interpretation of "Scourge of Meracydia" especially since we know the Allagans clashed with Meracydians.

Are they wyverns? I've never put a foot in T9, so I don't know.
Now though, everything in that place is holographic projection (hence the name. Maybe through aether?), except the boss who's an aetherial construct. I guess it's why it's "ghost" ;)

Yeah, they're grey-white wyverns. There are also 3 'real' dragons like Isgebind, Svara and Aiatar. (A blue, a yellow, and a red: Iceclaw, Thunderwing and Firehorn respectively).

But yeah it's a "hologram" but man I never understood how painful holograms can be ;;;;; though the 'meteors' and 'golems' (Astral/Umbral Debris and Dalamud Spawn) could be real-ish since it's underground.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

To me at least, I think that the Dravanians are different to other beastmen in that the actual dragons of their tribe are capable of directly corrupting men (such as shown during the DRG quests) without the presence of a Primal, which probably explains how they've been creating heretics without any apparent Primal summoning going on. That would also pour, excuse the pun, hot water on the whole 'Shiva is the Primal of the dragons' theory, but it does go someway to explaining how the dragons have been brainwashing for so long without a Primal's influence.

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Now you've got me wondering about tempering again. We've nailed down what it does, but not so much how it mechanically works. Is it an acute control or alteration of a body's aether?
And does this mean that the dragons may hold the key to restoring the tempered to personal control of their faith? If so, it would put the Archbishop in a very awkward position.

Interview so i posted this in the elemental religion and the ishgard wishes threads might as well here. Sounds like, as i had remembered it, Ishgard sounds like its going to be a huge battlefield like area. Why else worry about a piece of content that requires more than 40 characters, and seeing how many knights are there... Makes a lot of sense!

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Is it an acute control or alteration of a body's aether?

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This is something I am theorising about and, perhaps, might lead into what a primal's essence really is... Especially if we are seeing Shiva evolve from an Elezen to a Primal... But maybe we won't see that. But it's fun to think about it all!

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Originally Posted by Rocl

But then why are the Ghosts of Meracydia also wyverns!?

That said yes, I typically agree with the above interpretation of "Scourge of Meracydia" especially since we know the Allagans clashed with Meracydians.

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Well they also can be imported from Allag but dropped down to run amuck and then disappear into the night. haunting the poor Meracydians in their myth and legends.

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Originally Posted by DoctaruRavenbe

Well they also can be imported from Allag but dropped down to run amuck and then disappear into the night. haunting the poor Meracydians in their myth and legends.

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It's quite known that the Allgans enslaved other creatures not of their land/world. Namely voidkin, as LoA would lead us to believe. I swear I've posted about this somewhere before… hence my firm belief that Twintania is NOT of the Dravanian horde. Don't you think the Ishgardians would have KNOWN about Twintania, had she been a major part of the dragon clan? You don't just pass up any information on something THAT dangerous. Before anyone says "but what about Aiatar?" yes, I've considered that. But also consider Limsa is nowhere near Ishgard and a lot of the drakes/flyers in Bray feel rather imported than actually being a natural part of the area. BrayHM even gives more proof that they're not of the natural environment there (cats, birds, goblins, raptors are all part of the mobs in the area near Bray to begin with).

Ishgard has plenty of stories and legends about notable dragons. Aiatar and Twin are in neither of them.

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how far away are the allagan empire and Ishgard in a time line? maybe ishgard dosent know about this dragons because by the time the city came to be twintania was up up in the sky on dalamud lost in time with no allagan to tell their tales?

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Originally Posted by A_Magical_Unicorn_Rider

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Twintania and the Scourge of Meracydia are in that part of Coil since Dalamud was made, it seems. The Duty Finder texts clearly says she was enslaved by the Allags, and thus it makes it a REALLY ancient creature, much older than Ishgard or any Dravanian horde.

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Originally Posted by Yoohre_WildRiver

how far away are the allagan empire and Ishgard in a time line? maybe ishgard dosent know about this dragons because by the time the city came to be twintania was up up in the sky on dalamud lost in time with no allagan to tell their tales?

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The fall of the Allags happened some 5000 years ago.
Ishgard founding fathers encountered Nidhogg around 572 of the Sixth Astral Era, which ended in 1572.
So, there's around 4000 years between the Allagan Empire and Ishgard.

I just think that the Archbishop is rallying his own forces as there is going to be a big, wide-scale battle against the dragons. Or maybe the beastmen of Coerthas (giants, maybe?) are going to attack Ishgard. Shiva (in Elezen form) could be within the walls of Ishgard manipulating things within the royal family or government, so there will possibly be an attack from inside the kingdom. Who knows.

Edit incominga

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

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agreed, it simply isn't viable at this point for the garleans to march on the holy see. I'm sure they're still licking their wounds from the fall of castrum meridanium and their ultima weapon, not to mention their in the middle of a civil war to decide their new leader.

they might have crushed doma without much of a issue, but i doubt that they could do the same with a people trained to deal with dravinia on a daily basis.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

But then why are the Ghosts of Meracydia also wyverns!?

That said yes, I typically agree with the above interpretation of "Scourge of Meracydia" especially since we know the Allagans clashed with Meracydians.

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probably a class of wyvern, most the "ghost" designation indicates that it is a higher threat level than a scourge (or it's what it is-an ashkin) (methinks from allagan naming conventions.)

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Originally Posted by A_Magical_Unicorn_Rider

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no, they probably knew about Aiatar, as he had a large detachment of dragons under his wings. most likely it's mission was to either scout out vyldbrand for a foothold for expansion, or was the leader of a break-away group.

as for twin, they might have heard or read about her from the ramblings of a heretic who learned too much, or in an ancient blasphemous text...but beyond that they probably have no knowledge about bahamut, the fangs, Twintania, or any meracydia-invasion trained wyverns.

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on topic about the current archbishop, i don't think he's tempered at all...beyond his own zealotry. Shiva is probably a very recent summon, and with ishgard locked tighter than a miser's purse for the time being i really doubt she would be able to temper that leader. i also doubt the theories of her being the patron primal of the dravinian horde. they seem much more powerful to worship a normal level primal, especially with nidhogg's already present psuedo-tempering abilities.

if they were to worship anything, it would be an elder primal. nothing less would and could be a patron god of such a force.

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

Why in the world would the garleans attack Ishgard? They're already fighting off three city states and not doing so hot as is - if the ishgardians are content to stand aside, why add a fourth to the mix before you're done with the first three? That, and all winning control over ishgard gets you is a front row seat against the ongoing war against the dragons. Sounds like a bad deal all around to me. >_>

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While I wouldn't put it like this, there definitely is a possibility they (the Garlean Empire) are ignoring Ishgard on purpose.

Ishgard did not help the other city states before, and it might be they are leaving them alone because of that. If they don't forcefully drag Ishgard into the war there is a good chance Ishgard won't join at all. With Eorzea not falling as fast as they hoped, having a fourth city state join the war would be un-advantageous for the Garlean Empire. Could be that they are saving Ishgard for later. Then there is also the fact that the citadel itself seem to have good defences. They managed to defend themselves from the Dravanian Horde up to now after all. So trying to take the citadel would likely resort in a (lengthy) siege. And like Icecylee mentioned, taking Ishgard would likely mean you inherit its war with the Dravanians.

Lastly, there is apparently a lot going on inside the Garlean Empire at the moment as well. With the emperor his health falling there are disputes and power struggles, which might explain the relative lack of activity of their invasion forces.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

on topic about the current archbishop, i don't think he's tempered at all...beyond his own zealotry. Shiva is probably a very recent summon, and with ishgard locked tighter than a miser's purse for the time being i really doubt she would be able to temper that leader. i also doubt the theories of her being the patron primal of the dravinian horde. they seem much more powerful to worship a normal level primal, especially with nidhogg's already present psuedo-tempering abilities.

if they were to worship anything, it would be an elder primal. nothing less would and could be a patron god of such a force.

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I agree with the archbisshop not being tempered (and just over zealos), as for the dravanians.... I personally don't see them worshipping Shiva because I can't imagine them worshipping anything else than a dragon(like) primal. And it doesn't look like they are worshipping Bahamut, so yeah....

Actually, as far as Garleans in Ishgard, there IS a Castrum in its boarders. Go to Monument Tower and look South. That's not Mor Dhona (which is just WAY too far away to see, not even considering all the mountains between the Central Highlands and Carteneau), that's either the southern Central Highlands or northern Central Lowlands (boarder between the two maybe)...the guards at the tower also speak of keeping an eye on the Castrum and Garleans there.

Garlemald kinda attacked Ishgard already. They invaded Dzemael Darkhold to get their crystal supplies and the mining veins, for Ceruleum processing reasons.
We actually encountered them in the first part of the dungeon in 1.0, if I remember correctly.
And they also were present in Aurum Vale.

Ishgard having its own war to fight, and problems with that, they probably simply see Garlemald as a "not so serious opponent right now". Ironically, the worship of Halone being so important here, they would have made formidable opponents against the Empire, who sought to eradicate that worship.

A little late to this discussion, but consider this: if the Elezen woman we see in the trailer really is Shiva, how long has she remained manifested? It got me thinking that she may be responsible for the virtually endless winter in Coerthas following the Calamity.

A few NPCs in the main scenario mention that Snowcloak has been relentlessly encroaching into the area, and no amount of effort seems to be able to stop it. It might be that Shiva and her new realm/worshipers are on the other side advancing it into Coerthas.

With the situation so desperate in Ishgard, she might be playing them against the Dravanians to weaken both sides before she swoops in and delivers the finishing blow to either or both of them, tempering the leftovers and essentially inheriting a kingdom she's been cultivating for ~5 years.

If that girl is Shiva and is responsible for Coerthas winter... Hydaelyn would probably be out of Aether for a while now. 5 years.

We don't know how long a Primal would have to remain manifested to have a notable effect on global aether, let alone what that effect would look like. It is entirely possible that the "Coerthas Winter" exists entirely BECAUSE of a very localized depletion of aether resulting in a major disturbance of that region's weather. Again, we do not know the effects.

On the Garleans, Gaius' modus operandi is Divide and Conquer.

If Ishgard wants to be isolationist, that works to his advantage. And so he applies Napoleon's rule: Never interrupt your opponent while they are making a mistake.

There was an interview at E3 with Ferne and a question was asked regarding Shiva's beast tribe:

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GE: We know that, with Shiva, there is going to be a new Beast Tribe. What is the process for creating an entire new race for Hydaelyn?

MCKF: First off, you’re assuming a lot with that first sentence there. I can’t go into it in detail, but you’ll start to find out about it in 2.3 with the story we start to tell about Shiva.

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Whilst in a literal sense Ferne has merely shot down the existence of a new tribe, to me this reads more like Shiva doesn't actually have a tribe the way the other primals do. Primals require faith and zealous worship in order to perpetuate their existence and gain power though (barring the elder primals but we've seen nothing so far to indicate Shiva is an elder primal) so if she does not have a tribe what would she have?

Well what's the most zealous group of worshipers in the game right now that aren't a beast tribe? The Ishgardians.

"But the Ishgardians do not worship Shiva!" I hear you say. No, they worship Halone.

"There's also nothing to indicate that the Ishgardian populace is tempered!" Well... actually there is. The Ishgardians show a devout zeal in worship of Halone to the point that their entire civilisation is built upon a theocratic government. They are the very definition of 'religious extremists' going so far as to shun any that do not share their views and torture those they believe to have strayed or been 'corrupted'. If anything they show the clearest signs of being tempered out of any of the races in the game. People just overlook it because Halone isn't a primal.

Now if Shiva were summoned somewhere/somehow and posed as Halone in Elezen form (because of course the Ishgardian deity couldn't possibly be one of the other lesser races) what do you think Ishgard would do? Well Shiva actually fits all the same descriptions as Halone, even down to sharing the same element so... they'd worship her. Do the worshipers of a primal need to know the primal's identity in order to provide it the aether necessary to perpetuate its summoning? We don't know but given the way we've seen summoning to work (aetherial constructs seem to take a form based on belief/expectation/imagination) I'd say no.

Each of the primals has a different personality but one we're distinctly missing is a subtle manipulator. I think that will be Shiva. Is the Holy See tempered? Most likely. I believe he's tempered by Shiva who he believes to be Halone. Of course at that point the theory begs the question: "Why would Shiva want an endless war against Dravania?" I'm not too sure on that one. But given that the expansion is associated with 'Sky' and we've been told that Shiva's story is the one to lead into the expansion Shiva vs Dravania makes a LOT of sense in terms of the leadup to whatever comes next.

Many of these theories aren't accounting for how long Ishgard has been a Holy See. If they were the People's Republic of Ishgard up until the Astral Era start destabilizing (which is when primals can be summoned), the idea that they're all tempered would have more supporting evidence. They've been fanatically religious for a long time. If people want to make claims that Shiva's been in control of Ishgard, it's much stronger evidence that 1562 is when Primals first started showing up and 1563 is when Ishgard suddenly withdrew from the Eorzean Alliance and isolated themselves entirely to focus on their holy war against the Dravanians.

Maybe Shiva just thinks of dragons as a lesser race? After all, Hitler was provoked by Himler into thinking/idealizing the same thing with another race…

Maybe, Shiva is playing both sides? :o

Consider it like this: Ishgardians attack Dragon Horde, Dragon Horde kill Ishgardians and vice versa. Shiva gets worshiped by both sides under her so many alleged alias' (which we think she has tricked the Ishgardians into believing her to be Hallone incarnate) ;P

If Shiva is running Ishgard, she has reason to hate the dragons: They were the ones responsible for guarding the seal that kept her trapped in Silvertear Lake for eons.

As far as the Dravanians not necessarily being evil, there is a GC Leve in Mor Dhona where you kill a heretic for Ishgard. Over the course of the fight he talks, basically telling you that you're a puppet and being manipulated, and that you are the real bad guy.

Moose, is that true? If so, can you point me to an official source? I believe you, but still... curiosity, you know. For arguments that Ishgard is tempered that fit with this. Shiva is not a Silvertear Primal. Othard held out against Garlemald for a significant period of time because they were able to summon their own Primals. We have no evidence for this, but it's a highly unlikely possibility that Shiva has been with the Holy See since it's been a Holy See. For those of us who played FFXI, remember Gunther Schultz? He played the part of one of his descendants because he had become immortal. Our lady of silver cosmetics could be much the same. Highly unlikely. But it's been done before. Even if the consequences of Schultz's plotline were much more limited.

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Originally Posted by Saikou

If so, can you point me to an official source?

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Originally Posted by Waning of the Sixth Sun

1563
The Imperial Garlean Army withdraws to Ala Mhigo and begins construction of a defensive wall.
The Age of Calm begins. Ishgard suddenly withdraws from the Eorzean Alliance.

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My comment about how this could be support for the Temper theory is just off the cuff. Personally, I think Ishgard saw that the Garleans were no longer an immediate threat and decided to refocus on the dragons, who are and have always been an immediate threat. As for their religiosity, I've yet to see anything that suggests they're not just falling back hard on religion because that's what people tend to do when they live in contested areas on War's doorstep for over a thousand years. Who knows, maybe we'll see something that'll make me eat my hat in 2.3, eh?

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Originally Posted by Louisoix

Just now I made mention of Eorzea's future. But first I must speak of the past, for that which is to come was ever the product of that which has been. Ten years ago, an event took place which shook the very foundation of Eorzea: a tribe of beasts summoned forth a primal. So began the spread of summoning till there was not a tribe in this world to whom the practice remained unknown.

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I've always taken this to mean that from the time the Sixth Astral Era was established, no primal was summoned in Eorzea until the Fall of the Keeper. Primals were definitely summoned before this in Othard, and that is literally all we know about it. We don't know what primals they were, whether it was beast tribes or regular people that summoned them, if the Ascians were involved - nada.

I'm certainly in agreement that Ishgard's isolationism since not long after the fall of the Keeper is significant and do like the idea of it being linked to Shiva's influence.
The appearance of Midgardsormr would have likely been viewed as a major event, which could have led to some significant prayer to their guardian deity, the warrior maiden of ice.

(And Moose, please don't eat your hat, because darksteel isn't good for you.)

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Originally Posted by Xmbei

If the wanted full control of Eorzea its bad idea to just ignore the city state in the middle of it all, unless there is some reason yet to be given to us the players.

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Well one would believe that Ishgard might have drank the koolaid in the same method the GCs were prepared to. And in such unlike our city states Ishgard has much to gain from the power of the empire as it took many more dragons then it did ships in the battle of Silvertear. But there is another reason *ques twilight music* Who ever was the mysterious force behind leading the Garlean's to the Allag also advised them to by pass Ishgard. So if it is deeper then the just the Ascian's (As I believe Gaius is/was tempered in some form prior to Ultima) that Ishgard is already under the other powers control or is target of another plan and need the Garlean's in Eorzea central for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Saikou

We don't know how long a Primal would have to remain manifested to have a notable effect on global aether, let alone what that effect would look like. It is entirely possible that the "Coerthas Winter" exists entirely BECAUSE of a very localized depletion of aether resulting in a major disturbance of that region's weather. Again, we do not know the effects.

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Right, and that Coerthas Winter, caused bu a depletion of aether, didn't prevent the aetheryte network of the Ixal (as seen in Natalan) to function correctly without summoning Atmos and his friend, neither did it prvent Aetherial beings (as Ice Sprite we see in the whole map, including some huge ones in fates) to manifest themselves :P
Also, it's not like they have scientists, and we're part of an organization pretty much tracking primals among other things. A whole land deprived of aether wouldn't look suspicious at all.

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Originally Posted by Sakasa

Well one would believe that Ishgard might have drank the koolaid in the same method the GCs were prepared to. And in such unlike our city states Ishgard has much to gain from the power of the empire as it took many more dragons then it did ships in the battle of Silvertear. But there is another reason *ques twilight music* Who ever was the mysterious force behind leading the Garlean's to the Allag also advised them to by pass Ishgard. So if it is deeper then the just the Ascian's (As I believe Gaius is/was tempered in some form prior to Ultima) that Ishgard is already under the other powers control or is target of another plan and need the Garlean's in Eorzea central for some reason.

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And tempered by what, exactly? He wants to eradicate the primals out of our world, and ban our religion, to be the sole ruler of the lands. To do so, he went to such extent as to make a pact with ascians to get the power to fight primals (through the Ultima Weapon). If you think the *ascians* "tempered" him, then no. Read the speech during the fight : Gaius acts as if he was betrayed bu Lahabrea, not as a thrall.

I know that might sound weird (I'm sarcastic.), but some people are simply bad guys. Don't try to justify their actions everytime they're acting as villains : WoW did that and ruined their own lore with almost every single villain being corrupted by something.

As Gaius was working with Lahabrea, I believe Ishgard is working with the Ascians and Garlemald.

For the Ascians, Ishgard would be a logical and appetizing target. All that religious fervour screams SUMMONING. As behind the scenes manipulators, they would steer this zeal to convince the people of Ishgard to summon their deity, as they influenced the Ala Mhigan youth in Southern Thanalan.

After striking down Ala Mhigo, The Empire advances towards Silvertear Lake and strikes down a Dragon King, Midgardsormr. As they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Having dealt such an admirable blow against their sworn enemy, they take a passive attitude towards Garlemald.

The two things don't need to be necessarily connected. However, given Ishgard drops the Alliance and neglects the summons to meeting regarding Gaius' ultimatum and adding Lahabrea's collaboration with Gaius, seeing a consortium between Garlemald and Ishgard having Lahabrea as their liaison, doesn't seem all that unlikely.


I have to disagree with the tempering and summoning talk about Ishgard. Regarding the tempering, I see no comments from Eorzeans mentioning a change in Ishgard's behaviour as they observed with the tribes. As for the summoning, our Scions friends did not detect any disturbance in the aether to suggest a primal (or a God, for that matter) had been summoned in Coerthas.

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Originally Posted by Toranja

After striking down Ala Mhigo, The Empire advances towards Silvertear Lake and strikes down a Dragon King, Midgardsormr. As they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Having dealt such an admirable blow against their sworn enemy, they take a passive attitude towards Garlemald.

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Then they should ally with Dragons to take down Garlemald, since they invaded both Dzemael Darkhold (an ishgardian fortress) and Aurum Vale (mythril mines).

Now I agree they might try to summon Halone, that'd be cool.

I can't remember where I saw it, but I remember reading somewhere here ages ago that Ishgard had actually signed a neutrality treaty with Garlemald and that was the reason for their sudden pull-out of the Alliance after Silvertear Falls and their continuing closed border policy. It does make sense in any event, especially when framed with a story element from 1.0, where the Empire dropped linkpearls on the Eorzean citystates encouraging them to accept Imperial rule and to assist the Empire in the extermination of the beast tribes (and by extension, their Primals).

Considering Ishgard has long been at war with the Dravanian Horde, it's entirely possible that the Empire saw Ishgard's zealous war against the dragons, and decided not to interfere with Ishgard at that stage. Where as the other three city states were indecisive when it came to the beastmen problem and hence, Gaius felt only he could solve that issue, by conquering Eorzea and destroying the beastmen and their Primals himself.

Anyway I've never seen it mentioned anywhere so it's probably just a fan theory that I read, so take it with a grain of salt. But it does neatly explain a lot of things about Ishgard so it's too tempting a theory not to discount.

Sinister I knew something had to be going on, I had a theory somewhere that the clean prison chambers we see the ascians talked in probably were probably there, left cryptic for spoilers!

So starting to lean to Dragons being the protectors of Eorzea and fight the ascians and their influence. Plus those deemed as threats (post 2.3 story) with Midgardsormr being the seal of the primals guardian and long hatred of a potential threats such as Ishgardians founders attacking them, and ascians possibly corrupting Bahamut. So excited for more information in 2.4 that ending was better than Revolution was.

Since this topic isn't tagged for spoilers:

Clearly the Ascians are orchestrating everything going on in Ishgard. For how long this has been going on, who knows? It's pretty clear now why the Ishgardians refused to join the Eorzean Alliance during Dalamud's descent though. I'm not so sure the Ascians have a direct hand in the heretics. (which seems to be a pretty general term, since Shiva seems to be controlling some, while there are others who appear to side with dragonkind. I think "heretic" is anyone that doesn't abide by the Papacy)

After mulling this over, if the Ascians have this sort of influence over people such as an Ul'dahn Syndicate member and the holy leader of a nation, why haven't they tried to interfere with the other nation leaders? Is it because the adventurers and Minfilia are in such constant contact with them that we would eventually see through their ruse?

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Since this topic isn't tagged for spoilers:

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your second question is really good, and a wonder, maybe they are come to their senses? but that is rather good! Hopefully we find out in 2.0 or 3.0 since the ascian story is supposedly going into 3.0