Glamour & Need

But again this is just my personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by LovelessG

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you can report them if you had a verbal agreement in the pf or chat about loots. so yes there's something in the way to stop them from needing things you want when you form a party in pf.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2032385

and again, something that might seem silly to you might mean more to someone else.

OP, your issues over this matter stem entirely from your personal point of view, where progression > glamour. The problem is, not everyone feels that way. Many people, once they hit end game, don't push hard for progression, and just comfortably play through the content for enjoyment. In this situation, having a glamour you like adds to your overall enjoyment of the game, and thus trumps everything else for that player. Enjoyment > anything else.

Clearly this isn't the case with you, as you're concerned more with progression. You're entitled to play your way, as they are theirs, which is exactly why neither side can really object to the current system. They may complain that you're just going to toss that gear once you get something better, and so they have more use for it, just as you complain that you feel you actually 'have' use for it, since glamour is silly in your eyes.

Neither side is right or wrong. Hence the even playing field we have.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrAM

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holy freaking hell, yes my dear lady.

Reporting them wouldn't do anything because they have to say "I agree" within the chat in those words, and not just ok. Or they can get out of the ban by saying the simple words I forgot to hit pass. And lets be real here how good is SE in banning people anyway. I still see tons of mining bots running around and pvp bots, win traders. So yea I wouldn't really trust SE on that.

Then your only option is to get a static which you can trust, and then stating what all peeps wants/need, depending of the drops.

I am one of those that ZephyrAM explained. It's a group effort, if the Need shows up on yor bar, you are entitled to click it.

So unless like the High Allangan Static Group which will make sure the drops will go to specific person first (make sense) I don't want to wait 8 weeks before getting my dues.

I'm more leaning towards: let's all roll Need: those who got it, cannot roll Need anymore, so all 7 others will have a chance and eventually, all will get it.

Have fun, the most important point of a game.

I dont care one way or the other who rolls on what, but one thing people on the side of rolling for progression dont seem to have realized is the person rolling it for glamour will likely use it for longer than them. If someone who needs a garuda weapon for progression gets it, theyll likely only use it at most a week until they beat titan and get either a titan weapon or complete their relic. Someone who needs it for glamour are likely to glamour every stronger weapon they get until another weapon that looks better comes, which at the current rate of patches could be months away.

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

If someone who needs a garuda weapon for progression gets it, theyll likely only use it at most a week until they beat titan and get either a titan weapon or complete their relic. Someone who needs it for glamour are likely to glamour every stronger weapon they get until another weapon that looks better comes, which at the current rate of patches could be months away.

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Sorry but this is the dumbest statement seeing as the person who needs it can do the same exact thing, and they needed it for the stats and for later glamour use. Come up with another one this has been said all through out the post. You act like the people who actually NEED the gear for progression won't use same said piece later for glamour. I got a lot of stuff from lower lvls I won when leveling up my other classes I use for glamour.

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Originally Posted by LovelessG

You act like the people who actually NEED the gear for progression won't use same said piece later for glamour. I got a lot of stuff from lower lvls I won when leveling up my other classes I use for glamour.

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Not everyone likes the same things

Someone who gets a piece primarily for progression may not like its look and glamour over it, but the person going for glamour DOES like how it looks and likely will keep it for glamour for a long time

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Originally Posted by LovelessG

Sorry but this is the dumbest statement seeing as the person who needs it can do the same exact thing, and they needed it for the stats and for later glamour use. Come up with another one this has been said all through out the post. You act like the people who actually NEED the gear for progression won't use same said piece later for glamour. I got a lot of stuff from lower lvls I won when leveling up my other classes I use for glamour.

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I'm just going to assume you missed something in my post or else you wouldn'tve replied with an argument as terrible as that...

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Originally Posted by LovelessG

Sorry but this is the dumbest statement seeing as the person who needs it can do the same exact thing, and they needed it for the stats and for later glamour use. Come up with another one this has been said all through out the post. You act like the people who actually NEED the gear for progression won't use same said piece later for glamour. I got a lot of stuff from lower lvls I won when leveling up my other classes I use for glamour.

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If you could answer a simple question, I'm honestly curious as to what makes you feel you're entitled to another player's time and effort to help you complete any given piece of content yet that player is not entitled to lot on gear on equal terms with you?

Regardless of ilvl or what gear you may have entered with you both completed the same dungeon/primal/raid/whatever at the time correct?

So let me get this straight... people have complained endlessly about long DPS queues, many of those people have refused to level tanks / healers and yet they take issue with tanks / healers lotting on gear for glamour when they don't want to go to the content on the tank / healer role to begin with?

Also people want help clearing content from complete strangers in Duty Finder, yet they also want those strangers to pass gear to them rather than rolling on it for glamour yet they took no issue with using that player's tanking ability / heals / DPS to complete the encounter that the gear dropped in?

While i agree it may be courteous (subjective from person to person) to pass something for a lower level / ilvl player to get a stat increase from it i fail to see how it should be expected / required and certainly not enforced.

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Originally Posted by LovelessG

Ok for the ones who say make your own PF group. That doesn't help anything because again there is nothing in the way to stop the person from still needing even if they don't need.

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Have you tried it yet ? and then they ninja'ed your gear even after you set a rule ? do you think 90%+ people that will join planing to break the PFs rule and steal the gear? wtf just for ilvl 90 ? even 5 month ago when ilvl 90 still worth it. I rarely found people who will broke the PF rule (only found 2 report from my LS until now). mostly even got BL by some FC and LS.

Why are there so many players who think that complete strangers are there to help them gear up their character? If you're not queueing with a premade don't complain that someone isn't willing to pass gear to you no matter what the reason is. If you can't deal with RNG not working out in your favor don't play with randoms.

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Originally Posted by Gardthorne

Why are there so many players who think that complete strangers are there to help them gear up their character? If you're not queueing with a premade don't complain that someone isn't willing to pass gear to you no matter what the reason is. If you can't deal with RNG not working out in your favor don't play with randoms.

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yeah so true

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Originally Posted by LovelessG

Ok for the ones who say make your own PF group. That doesn't help anything because again there is nothing in the way to stop the person from still needing even if they don't need. I do understand people would like glamour thats fine, but there is nothing to change my mind in thinking that glamour should be on a greed basis and not need. You don't NEED to glamour your gear, but you do NEED better gear in order to progress through the game. And no i do not feel entitled to anything if anything it seems a lot of you feel more entitled to take stuff you really won't need from someone who does it to progress through the game, and help later groups. Now you want to argue the fact that said person can use the item for months with glamour. Well so can the actual person who needs it so that argument is mute. What happened to people willing to help out those less fortunate then others. If a person actually needs the piece and is going to use the piece to further his progression then why take it away from him. Just so you can glamour it for aesthetic purposes that doesn't do anything to help the party. Our community seems to be going down hill, and for those of you who do things like that. All your doing is discouraging newer players, and making the community look worse. But the whole make a PF for it is the dumbest idea ever seeing as how there is nothing to stop a person from still needing it. Now maybe the ilvl system I came up with may not be a good idea, but I still think something should be done. And again no I do not feel entitled to anything, I honestly think doing something like that is morally wrong, and its not something I would do to another person. Not for something as silly as glamour that doesn't help or contribute to the party in any shape or form.

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The world not only about sympathy to each other good sir. They are also sacrificing their time and maybe even sacrificing more thing than you. Yes peoples should help victims of natural disasters. But how about "random" people in the street should we give them our money just because they "need" more money to buy a car ? you will ? GL

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

Well, put it this way, there I am leveling my Monk and in Satasha the Acolyte Robe drops, the WHM in the group is a lvl 50 with Coil gear doing their roulette. I am still leveling my casters so the robe would be a great help for when they hit 15, but since I came in as my Monk I cannot need.

The WHM doesn't "need" that robe other than the slim possibility it is for an alt also, but they are in the same boat I am in, rolling for another class, except I cannot need roll and they can, they inevitably win the roll just because they can roll need and I am stuck with greed. How is that fair?

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If you want a good chance of obtaining loot for a class/role then play that class. You've got nobody but yourself to blame if something drops for a class you want but you aren't on that class.

And if you can't play that class because you aren't there yet then tough cookie.

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Originally Posted by Gardthorne

Why are there so many players who think that complete strangers are there to help them gear up their character? If you're not queueing with a premade don't complain that someone isn't willing to pass gear to you no matter what the reason is. If you can't deal with RNG not working out in your favor don't play with randoms.

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It's really not RNG people were commenting about. No one likes RNG in terms of loot. Some were referring to how you normally have people that need gear to actually use will end up losing it to people who have no actual use for it. FYI, those who say "alts", yeah that's greeding not needing. It's more like those that need when they have no actual use for it and those who say "y stat" over "x stat", I highly doubt a HM primal weapon will have better stats for you than your Rosen or Novus Bow.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

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Then play that role. You don't deserve or need a drop you can't use on the class you completed the content with. At least not first priority. If that healer joins and get the dps into a q faster then good for him. He deserves that piece that was the entire reason he did the dungeon. The drop was a HEALER drop. The HEALER should get first priority as in that dungeon is filled out those requirements. He did the job that armor was made for in the dungeon that item drops in.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Some were referring to how you normally have people that need gear to actually use will end up losing it to people who have no actual use for it.

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Who is the arbiter of what counts as "actual use"? You? No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Ryuukishi

Who is the arbiter of what counts as "actual use"? You? No thanks.

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Common sense, I'd say. Then again, people say those who are capped out on everything for all roles that need gear purely for glamour has greater use for it, so I guess if you want an "arbiter", it would the ones that state glamour is a legitimate use :p

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

If that healer was a scholar, the allagan gloves might be better in their eyes. Scholar's love crit and daystar has none. High ilevel doesn't always mean better. A lot of soildery pieces are crap.

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wat? While I wouldn't use Daystar Gloves for either healer, HA has less Spell Speed and gets Piety instead of DET, which helps with healing the longer fights. It's still better than Allagan. That crit secondary will not offset the gain from the mind boost.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Right........or it could be that people may want it for glamour, seals, retainers, to complete a set (plenty of completionists in this game..), and who knows what else. They have just as much right to the item as you.

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I would agree with all of those except seals. Because seals don't care which job/role the item is for, so everyone "needs" that item for that purpose pretty much equally. Once the item stops being "Healer Gloves" or "Tank Belt" and so on, and is just a turn in for seals, your current role, or that of your retainer is no longer and in that situation alone I feel it is selfish to hit need over the others who worked hard with you to clear the content.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

No. Thinking you're more entitled to a drop for whatever reason makes you selfish. You both did the battle, so you both equally deserve it. It's as simple as that.

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As much as losing a loot roll sucks...it's not the first time and certainly not the last. Been there, done that for years. Couldn't agree with this post more. Your idea borders into the "feeling entitled" thing and I don't really agree with that. 2 people see an item they want, so they roll. Obviously there'll be a loser so...better luck next time. If I got a nickel for every time I lost a loot roll in my MMO history I'd be a rich man.

I think SE should have its own glamour shop npc

when they update they can add their own little outfits or sets of armor and weapon glamour.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Common sense, I'd say. Then again, people say those who are capped out on everything for all roles that need gear purely for glamour has greater use for it, so I guess if you want an "arbiter", it would the ones that state glamour is a legitimate use :p

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It's because it is. They have to go on the role that the item is for. They can't just go as something else, say a tank to try and get Hussar's Jackboots. They would have to go as Dragoon to be able to need on it. Are you telling me that someone who has run something 100 times for a certain item for Glamour, should feel guilty for rolling need on that item against someone who has done it 5 times?

I did Thornmarch 3-4 times per day for 2 weeks to get the Axe. When it finally dropped a group of DF people wanted me to pass so a friend of theirs that wasn't even on WAR could get it.

Today in CT the tank gloves dropped and the other people in my party got mad when I needed them because their PLD friend was wearing i60 gear and the gloves would have been an upgrade for them.

A system like the TC is advocating for would basically mean that I either would never do lower ilevel content because I wouldn't be able to lot on drops or that I'd do the content wearing worse gear so I could lot (which probably wouldn't be that much of a bad idea for CT honestly).

Yeah, it sucks when someone that doesn't need the gear lots on something (it has happened to me before), but prevent people from getting drops and they will stop doing the content altogether.

Takes virtually no time to get enough myth to ugprade your stuff anyway. There's really no excuse for people to be doing coil with such low level gear.

People doing it with i50 or i60 stuff wouldn't be getting away with it if it weren't for echo. When Turns 1-4 were new and without echo, they were pretty challenging with full darklight (i70)

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Some were referring to how you normally have people that need gear to actually use will end up losing it to people who have no actual use for it.

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Glamour is an 'actual use'. If someone is running an instance specifically for a glamour, it doesn't entitle you to waste their time simply because you are wearing an item with weaker stats. Not when we're talking about randomly paired players.

I think many of you have a warped view on what "need" actually means. Glamour is not a need. It's a want, aka greed. I'm also not disagreeing some of you and your objection to my scenario / opinion, but I still stand by that there's a time and place to be noble and not roll on something just because the need button is available.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

I think many of you have a warped view on what "need" actually means. Glamour is not a need. It's a want, aka greed. I'm also not disagreeing some of you and your objection to my scenario / opinion, but I still stand by that there's a time and place to be noble and not roll on something just because the need button is available.

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So i'll ask you the same question. You've been doing X instance say, 50 times. The other person that can hit need on the item has done it 3 times. You want it for vanity, he wants it to use. Are you REALLY going to think the first person doesn't have a valid reason to hit need?

Nope. That's not how it works. Ya'll can spend as much time as you like redefining need in this context to suit your point, but it doesn't matter. Square-enix has ALREADY defined need. Need means it is appropriate for your current class. You can talk all you want about how you "need" something for an off-class, but the fact of the matter is you're just wrong. Getting deeper, you don't NEED any one piece of gear for progression either. For all but the absolute highest tier of gear, there are, surprise, other options! Maybe instead of getting the Plundered Bliaud that's unique in looks, you just buy a robe? Statwise the difference is minimal to none. If anything, it could easily be argued that someone who is going for a specific piece because of its look NEEDS it more than you, who would have multiple options if all you're looking for is stats

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

I think many of you have a warped view on what "need" actually means. Glamour is not a need. It's a want, aka greed. I'm also not disagreeing some of you and your objection to my scenario / opinion, but I still stand by that there's a time and place to be noble and not roll on something just because the need button is available.

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To go back to your complaint:

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

I am still leveling my casters so the {Acolyte's} robe would be a great help for when they hit 15, but since I came in as my Monk I cannot need.

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You didn't have a caster/heal at lv15-20 (the level range this gear is useful) when you saw the robe, so you didn't actually need it at that time (for all I know, you still don't have anything that can use it). You just wanted (AKA greed) it for the when you get a mage to 15...

Also, HQ crafted while leveling is often just as good as Greens, sometimes better especially when melded (there also aren't Greens for all levels, so there are definitely points where HQ is a lot better)

It doesn't really matter either way considering that it's not like you can only run the instance once ever. If what you want doesn't drop the first time, or it does but you lose the roll, nothing is stopping you from running it again until you do get what you want.

Glamours are a tangible benefit. Not looking like garbage and instead looking how I want is a tangible benefit.

Here, lemme give you an example.

I want the Pilgrim's Robe, for vanity. In terms of looks the Pilgrim's Robe is unique. No other robe looks like it. In terms of stats, you have:

http://i.gyazo.com/4e5e847f9e82775f50ce7e76cd9d9c5e.png

These are all roughly equivalent (well, the Warwolf is a bit worse but if you like PVP then sure). Not only that, but while anything ABOVE is fine for stats, nothing else works to replace it for vanity reasons.

If anything I have MORE of a need of it then you do. You have options, I don't. But I digress. The point I made earlier still applies. Lemme bold it so maybe this time it gets through to you. It doesn't matter what you define "need" or "greed" as because the game has done it already and you are unequivocally on the wrong side. What someone does with their gear after they win it is zero of your business and your attempts to reframe what amounts to a very good system so that you always win are laughable.

Fashion Fantasy XIV: A Realm Resplendent

Fashion is a need.

Fashion is the greatest need.

I will never begrudge a losing roll to someone entranced by the fabulousness of a piece of equipment.

If you somehow wind up with me in DF and I do, feel free to hit me in the face with this post.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

So it comes more down to: "Should I be nice and let someone who gets use out of it try their luck or should I should be that guy and take it even though I have zero use for it?"

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It's pretty much a debate about oneself being self-centered or not.

I just read it as impatience, tbh. It seems like a lot of people are in favor of a loot system that allows them to do as few runs of a dungeon as possible and still get everything. But even if such a system was implemented, and even if a person did a Party Finder party and locked a certain piece of loot all to themselves, they'd still have to pray to the RNG gods that the piece of loot they want drops. I suppose they could get lucky and get all their drops right away, but for the most part they're still going to QQ about it at some point no matter what Square Enix does.

I care about glamours more than I care about getting the best gear. So no thanks! I'd get very sad if I couldn't get glamour items cause I happen to have played the game longer and have better gear than the other player. Don't you see how silly that sounds?

Besides this is the easiest mmo I've played gear wise. Go do duty roulette for a week and you got full ilvl90 (actually a week might even be too long).
Anything that drops in dungeons are just for glamours imo (except coil 2 since that is the only end game dungeon in the game)

Let's not forget about that one guy with only one class to 50, still wearing some AF pieces who rolls greed on everything and wins.

For what it's worth, despite my being 100% OK with how the system is set-up, I will typically only Greed things in a dungeon, even if I could Need them as my job. The exception to this would be the crafting mats, coil gear (still need a ton of this) and if ever I see that battlemage robe, that sucker will be mine (been after it since launch). When in lower dungeons, I will generally pass entirely if there are new people. I don't expect people to use my same judgement, and that's fine.

ETA: The point of this post wasn't to show off how amazing and gracious I am (haha..), but rather, it's to show that while people may be happy with the current system, not everyone is a complete loot-whore. I think a lot of people may be assuming because some of us don't want change, that we need everything we absolutely can.

(That's not to say we shouldn't be allowed to need something if we want it for glamour/seals/whatever). :p

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

Well, put it this way, there I am leveling my Monk and in Satasha the Acolyte Robe drops, the WHM in the group is a lvl 50 with Coil gear doing their roulette. I am still leveling my casters so the robe would be a great help for when they hit 15, but since I came in as my Monk I cannot need.

The WHM doesn't "need" that robe other than the slim possibility it is for an alt also, but they are in the same boat I am in, rolling for another class, except I cannot need roll and they can, they inevitably win the roll just because they can roll need and I am stuck with greed. How is that fair?

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It's fair because you are the one who CHOSE to do that dungeon as a monk, therefore you forfeit your option to need on an item you may want.

Honestly, this entitlement mentality is gross. About a week ago, I was doing Levi EX with an FC friend who's main is a bard. He just happens to have his Artemis Bow Animus, but really wants the Levi bow for glamour. So, the TANK asks my friend if he wants the bow (before we even started the fight), and he responds yes. The tank throws a fit, honestly crying like a baby, and leaves the instance taking the 30 minute penalty because the bard of the group says he wants the bow if it drops. OMG, how dare the bard want a bard weapon.

Here's a novel idea. If you want an item on a specific job, try playing that job. I'm certainly not going to give up an item I want (be it for glamour or stats) for the job I'm playing to suit your needs.

No. Working as intended. ™