There needs to be some kind of "Intentionally Uncooperative" vote kick option

I tank and from a tanking point of view i would shoot the OT, who wasn't using his shield on the spot. Who knows maybe he thought he was a warrior(LMFAO). This doesn't just come under harassment its downright stupidity and makes him a fail tank.
Tanks need to ready for anything. MT dies some how, OT needs to take over. Him not having a shield means he wont be able to do this properly.
Every fight needs people to different things his one and only job was to stun every other eruption he failed and needs to go to tank school. All of the people who defended the OT not stunning ever other eruption don't ever be in a party with me. stunning erutions might drop my dmg by a tiny bit(shield bash does damage DUH) but it also increases every one else damage output, so whats more important me losing a tiny of damage or the overall group damage.

Maybe my priorities are wrong but i always thought for tanks its control the fight, stay alive, be aware of the overall situation and then lastly and damage done is a bonus. Guess the new style of tanking is reverse all this.

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Originally Posted by Parodine

It's must better for the control of the fight to stun eruptions and have a controlled, predictable radiant plume moment pattern. You can't stun all the eruptions in the fight because of his stun resistance anyway. But not trying at all because it'll lower group DPS is bs.

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I always cry when I see sub-200 dps from DPS class. Should I vote kick them too for "not trying"?
Even though this PAL is arrogant it still understandable - why should he put more effort to easy other people life when it's really not required and is a bad habbit looking at further encounters. What all those ppl that can't manage eruptions will do on Ultima HM/Ifrit EX - cry a river?

And by the way - you can have "controlled, predictable radiant plume moment" even without stun, just all the party should pay attention and not stack on ifrit back too early.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

As for stunning errupitons and so on... and that effecting healers/dps... you are joking right? The half a second walk out of an erruption zone really isn't a big deal. And people need to learn you don't need to run across the field but just in a small circle where you are(you learn this on ultima hm eventually).

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If this quote wasn't directed at me than my apologies.

I personally didn't say anything about needing stuns one way or the other, that wasn't my point at all, my point was that not even having a shield equipped was the dumb part. I don't care one way or the other about the stuns because Ifrit HM is fairly facerollable even at minimum ilvl usually. But going in missing a shield is pretty stupid just because he wanted to DPS, because as said having a shield doesn't negatively effect DPS of a PLD even an iota.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

As for stuns and silences, sometimes they are a bigger help than other times.

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Well not to mention not every stun can be interrupted, so players HAVE to dodge. Only ones that can be annoying, especially if heavy melee in party, is the ones post nails after the central plumes.

Those are only ones that should be interrupted, all others are easy to avoid just by stepping out of the area of the eruption :) But even those can be dodged too.

Pre-heart, no stuns are needed.

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Originally Posted by Dgsoil

having a shield doesn't negatively effect DPS of a PLD even an iota.

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Shields have STR, so not having one equipped negativelly impacts their DPS, albeit very minor, but still XD

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Shields have STR, so not having one equipped negativelly impacts their DPS, albeit very minor, but still XD

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Indeed, that was exactly my point, not having one doesn't increase your DPS and in fact could negatively effect it. <3

You're all too hung up on Ifrit. What about tanks that move Titan around, or don't pick up any sisters in Garuda? What about Scholars that leave all the healing to the fairy even though their gear isn't good? What about a Summoner that only uses Ruin II and Titan, or a Dragoon that only uses the True Thrust combo? If someone isn't doing their job and won't listen to advice, you should be able to kick them.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

I always cry when I see sub-200 dps from DPS class. Should I vote kick them too for "not trying"?

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Nothing to do with the topic. One thing is playing with a fresh lvl 50 DPS doing his relic quest, another thing is a paladin that deliberately decided to not use a shield / not help build LB which, depending on the party DPS, might actually be needed.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

Even though this PAL is arrogant it still understandable - why should he put more effort to easy other people life when it's really not required and is a bad habbit looking at further encounters. What all those ppl that can't manage eruptions will do on Ultima HM/Ifrit EX - cry a river?

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How is pressing one button putting more effort? I mean really, why do you think that fight requires two tanks if there are no adds?

And a strategy is not a bad habit. What is so wrong about following a strategy? What's the benefit of that PLD not using a shield/not stunning?[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Felessan

And by the way - you can have "controlled, predictable radiant plume moment" even without stun, just all the party should pay attention and not stack on ifrit back too early.

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With people doing relic quest? Good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

And a strategy is not a bad habit. What is so wrong about following a strategy? What's the benefit of that PLD not using a shield/not stunning?

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It's because that's the only place where it even works. I've seen people complain about eruptions not being stunned on Ifrit Extreme. People get used to thinking they don't need to dodge the eruptions at all, instead of using the opportunity to practice said dodging.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

And by the way - you can have "controlled, predictable radiant plume moment" even without stun, just all the party should pay attention and not stack on ifrit back too early.

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In a DF situation, what are you more likely to achieve, a good movement pattern with use of stun or without? Hopefully that should be obvious.
I bring it up because for Ifrit HM you'll likely be working with a group of strangers (I haven't seen a PF for Ifrit HM in months), no one will explain anything at the beginning, and you'll be dependent on everyone knowing the vague way radiant plumes, charges, and eruptions work, how to move and their role. Proper stuns help facilitate this and make it easier as eruptions are arguably the most tricky thing since by the last phase they'll be spawning on 3 people. If you don't wanna stun them for the first 50% of the fight, I don't see a problem at all, but even a non-PLD can provide stun coverage against the last phase of eruptions as they're more timed and predictable.
That's all I'm trying to say.

Ifrit Ex is another thing entirely. And arguably, it's be better to practice dodging them specifically for that fight because you can't run all willy-nilly over the map to dodge them like for HM. You'll get more dodging practice in Ultima HM too.

Trolling does fall under the harassment label. Problem is when 5 trolls come in a pre-made for the lols. /rollseyes. All you can do at that point is report them after you escape the fight/dungeon. BUT, here's the thing... dude refusing to use his shield? yeah no reason for that shit... someone using a different strategy to fight X monster? It may LOOK like they're trolling to the party to expects to do it a certain way, but they aren't. :/

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Originally Posted by Dgsoil

There is literally no downside to equipping a shield, unlike some other games. There is no damage increase for having just a sword equipped, and you lose the stats you would have gained from your shield, so the argued loss of DPS is counterproductive. So there is literally no argument for this person not using their shield, stun is another thing but the general accepted strategy is to stun eruptions when possible so that you build LB and save the party hassle. But hey, if you guys are okay with people gimping your fight for lawls you won't mind when I come try to main tank in my snowman suit right?

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So you would be alright if there was a vote kick if someone was spirit bonding, because they are purposely lowering their stats, or what if you found out your summoner didn't have all 30 points in int, should we have a vote kick option for that too, that damned summoner not having all their stats in the right place to make your life easier?

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

So you would be alright if there was a vote kick if someone was spirit bonding, because they are purposely lowering their stats, or what if you found out your summoner didn't have all 30 points in int, should we have a vote kick option for that too, that damned summoner not having all their stats in the right place to make your life easier?

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you are just dead set on making what this person was doing ok. while most dont like it, they will ignore someone spirit binding, but this case has someone in a place to make things slightly easier on everyone intentionally denying to do that. as with the connect i made to other fights that you chose to think i dont have the capacity to see the difference in, one person not helping the group to avoid or get past something just to get a laugh about it is a dick. to compare this would be similar to someone deciding to get eaten by Refflesia every chance they get because "lol". your failure to see someone holding a group back on purpose is narrow minded. and before its mentioned again, regardless of ifrit ex being immune to stun, that is a different fight to talk about. we are talking about hm.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

So you would be alright if there was a vote kick if someone was spirit bonding, because they are purposely lowering their stats, or what if you found out your summoner didn't have all 30 points in int, should we have a vote kick option for that too, that damned summoner not having all their stats in the right place to make your life easier?

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Not having a shield is bad...its like any other class just ommitting any part of their armor/accessories.

I have to give it to you though for your perseverance and not giving up on your ideas, that's about the best part of this post :)

p.s. I know some will view it as arrogance/stubborn. I choose to see it as I see it. :)

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

you are just dead set on making what this person was doing ok.

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So this person chose not stun eruptions, you said we are talking only about this fight, but you are the one that was bringing up other fight, like you brought up turn 6 in your last post, then you say

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

this would be similar to someone deciding to get eaten by Refflesia every chance they get

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but to try to make your point

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

regardless of ifrit ex being immune to stun, that is a different fight to talk about. we are talking about hm.

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so basically we can compare it to other fights when you want to say it's not ok, but when other say that not stunning eruptions isn't a huge deal because you can't on other fights, suddenly that is off limits?
It isn't really so much about what the person did, but the OP coming here to whine about it and wanting a vote kick option for someone not doing a fight the way he wants, when it is common to do the fight with or without stuns. Also if you read the first post, he tried to kick the paladin, and it failed, so more people were ok with what the paladin was doing than weren't.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

So this person chose not stun eruptions, you said we are talking only about this fight, but you are the one that was bringing up other fight, like you brought up turn 6 in your last post, then you say

but to try to make your point

so basically we can compare it to other fights when you want to say it's not ok, but when other say that not stunning eruptions isn't a huge deal because you can't on other fights, suddenly that is off limits?
It isn't really so much about what the person did, but the OP coming here to whine about it and wanting a vote kick option for someone not doing a fight the way he wants, when it is common to do the fight with or without stuns. Also if you read the first post, he tried to kick the paladin, and it failed, so more people were ok with what the paladin was doing than weren't.

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The two comparisons made by me, the person you responded to, and others, are not the same. So please stop trying to make them seem so. We were comparing to Ifrit EX because it has similar mechanics that cannot be stunned, and were saying people should practice anyhow. The person you responded to, their comparison was likening it to another fight, with completely different mechanics. But the comparison they were making was not about the fight mechanics at all, it was a comparison of a person intentionally doing, or not doing, something that affected the outcome of the fight.

So go through it again, and again, and again and as many more times as you need to get it. My, and other poster's, comparison was on the mechanics of the fight. Kaze's was on a specific player refusing to do something to potentially ease the difficulty or win the fight. Nowhere near the same comparison.

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Originally Posted by ispano

The person you responded to, their comparison was likening it to another fight, with completely different mechanics. But the comparison they were making was not about the fight mechanics at all, it was a comparison of a person intentionally doing, or not doing, something that affected the outcome of the fight.

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Ok, let's compare these two, not stunning eruptions, people have to pay attention and dodge. Getting consumed on T6 gives the boss a stackable damage buff that if stacked high enough can make the damage the boss deals unhealable. I see your point, one thing is easily remedied by people paying attention, the other creates a situation that makes the fight impossible. So basically what you are saying is that having to pay attention and react equates to an impossible fight?

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Ok, let's compare these two, not stunning eruptions, people have to pay attention and dodge. Getting consumed on T6 gives the boss a stackable damage buff that if stacked high enough can make the damage the boss deals unhealable. I see your point, one thing is easily remedied by people paying attention, the other creates a situation that makes the fight impossible. So basically what you are saying is that having to pay attention and react equates to an impossible fight?

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No, I'm saying don't try to discredit someone with a bunk argument.

Also, you should read the whole post. You know, having to edit everything in after the fact. Not stunning eruptions does not make the fight impossible, and even ignoring that, the OT was in the wrong just for not having a shield equipped.

Also, if you read the OP he doesn't even talk about stunning. But if you ask someone to perform their role, stop gimping themselves, or whatnot(Like the paladin and his shield) and they laugh at you, that's intentionally harming other people's gameplay. The "you beat the fight, even if it was harder or took longer" type argument doesn't fly.

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Originally Posted by ispano

No, I'm saying don't try to discredit someone with a bunk argument.

Also, you should read the whole post. You know, having to edit everything in after the fact. Not stunning eruptions does not make the fight impossible, and even ignoring that, the OT was in the wrong just for not having a shield equipped.

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I read the entire post, I edit for length, or if I see a spelling error or something I made, I haven't edited anything "after the fact," and saying that makes you seem to be grasping at straws. Would it make a difference if the OT had a shield, but didn't have a belt equipped? If it is just for the stats, then that should be the same thing, and that would go back to the whole spiritbonding thing, or when you see all those folks that come in as a caster but with melee jewelry because they need that gear to meet ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

I read the entire post, I edit for length, or if I see a spelling error or something I made, I haven't edited anything "after the fact," and saying that makes you seem to be grasping at straws. Would it make a difference if the OT had a shield, but didn't have a belt equipped? If it is just for the stats, then that should be the same thing, and that would go back to the whole spiritbonding thing, or when you see all those folks that come in as a caster but with melee jewelry because they need that gear to meet ilvl.

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Then you missed the last line, which points out the complete differences in the two comparisons. One is about fight mechanics, the other about a player refusing to do something.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Then you missed the last line, which points out the complete differences in the two comparisons. One is about fight mechanics, the other about a player refusing to do something.

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So player X doesn't do what you want when you want, even though the other people in the group are ok with it, so let's kick him because your opinion is more important? Do you kick summoners that don't shadowflare Garuda for the slow, that makes the tank take less damage?

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

So player X doesn't do what you want when you want, even though the other people in the group are ok with it, so let's kick him because your opinion is more important? Do you kick summoners that don't shadowflare Garuda for the slow, that makes the tank take less damage?

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First, stop assuming the people were ok with it. Do you realize how many people don't hit yes on a kick attempt because they think it's an abandon? Or those who just reflexively hit no? There are many who think that if they kick the tank, they will never get another one, which is likely closer to what was going on. It would mean they would have to leave and requeue and wait even longer. Doesn't mean that they're ok with it at all. Now, to answer your question, I don't kick anyone. I leave. But guess what, i'm usually the tank. I don't make rules, I don't force people to play a certain way. But if I feel someone is trolling the group, refusing to co-operate to make the encounter easier or simply even beat it, I will leave.

An example is a few DPS i've seen in Lost City. Especially one in particular, a Summoner. I saw him multiple times, and he never fixed the problem our group saw with him the first time. And that was that if the other DPS got eaten by the first boss, they died because the Summoner didn't dps the stomach at all, or just poorly. I expect a response along the lines of "the healer could just res the other DPS and you can continue on". But that would be ignorant. If both DPS performed at that level, or refused or whatnot, you would not clear the first boss. The healer would get eaten, and he'd die due to not being broken out. So why is it ok for one person, just ONE person to mess with a run like that, be it a minor or major thing? Why does everyone else have to make up for that person because they REFUSE to carry their own weight? Please, do tell me. Oh, and please tell me why we aren't "allowed" to nip these people in the bud by kicking them, when they're the ones causing problems.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

So you would be alright if there was a vote kick if someone was spirit bonding, because they are purposely lowering their stats, or what if you found out your summoner didn't have all 30 points in int, should we have a vote kick option for that too, that damned summoner not having all their stats in the right place to make your life easier?

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Your comparison is terrible. It isn't correct at all, a more apt comparison would be your healer wasn't wearing a body piece. It isn't like someone going in spiritbond gear to a fight, it's someone not WEARING gear to a fight. It isn't about the stat loss per say, it's about the intention of trolling on purpose. You are OK with paladin's going into fights without shields, you've made your point already, we get it.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Stunning eruptions can also drop party dps

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I only mentioned not having a shield would lower DPS because that was one of the first points YOU yourself brought up, but yes, continue playing both sides of the field to troll people, it's awesome and hilarious and you are super smart.

Do I think there should be an extra vote kick options? No. What this player was doing could be considered harassment if he was trolling and being a dick on purpose so there was already an option for it, which is what this thread is actually about in the first place. I'm done arguing semantics since this is just another thread derailed from the topic.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

I was responding to someone saying the loss of the stats alone are worth kicking the paladin, that's why I brought up the fact that people spiritbond, I compared it to a belt because a belt has slightly higher stats than a shield of the same ilvl, where a chest piece is like three times the stats, that's not even close.

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Once again you completely and utterly miss the point, it isn't about the stats given, it's about the choice he made of not wearing a piece of gear at all. You keep comparing stats, stats don't matter, if you are high enough ilvl to do the fight then I don't give a damn, if you come in missing pieces of gear into a fight though because you don't want to do something, that is an entirely different matter altogether. I brought up the shield increases paladin's DPS because YOU yourself said it was better for the PLD to focus on his damage.

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Originally Posted by Delnoir

I've been getting a few instances lately where the people are purposefully doing stupid stuff that's causing problems.

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I make a harassment ticket in that case. It's answered in 10 mins. One character I reported hasn't logged since.

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Originally Posted by Dgsoil

Your comparison is terrible. It isn't correct at all, a more apt comparison would be your healer wasn't wearing a body piece. It isn't like someone going in spiritbond gear to a fight, it's someone not WEARING gear to a fight. It isn't about the stat loss per say, it's about the intention of trolling on purpose.

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I was responding to someone saying the loss of the stats alone are worth kicking the paladin, that's why I brought up the fact that people spiritbond, I compared it to a belt because a belt has slightly higher stats than a shield of the same ilvl, where a chest piece is like three times the stats, that's not even close.

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Originally Posted by Dgsoil

Do I think there should be an extra vote kick options? No. What this player was doing could be considered harassment .

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The OP tried to kick for harassment and failed, if he felt it was harassment, he should have reported and gone about his day, not come here and cry that we need another vote kick option.

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Originally Posted by Dgsoil

you are super smart.

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Thank you. If you stay in school and study hard I'm sure you will have a bright future.

So honest question. Why didn't the MT stun? If he was a warrior, then it'll be no problem. If he were a paladin, they could just switch roles? Do you see me vote kicking a healer every time they say they can't get the doors in City of Amdapor (which btw they should since no one is getting damaged while he casts for a good 15 seconds). You just want to do things your way, but there's an easy solution. I'm sure your party (rightly so) thought you were an idiot when you attempted the vote kick and that's why it didn't go through. You were probably quickly replaced and they one shot it after you left.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

So honest question. Why didn't the MT stun? If he was a warrior, then it'll be no problem. If he were a paladin, they could just switch roles? Do you see me vote kicking a healer every time they say they can't get the doors in City of Amdapor (which btw they should since no one is getting damaged while he casts for a good 15 seconds). You just want to do things your way, but there's an easy solution. I'm sure your party (rightly so) thought you were an idiot when you attempted the vote kick and that's why it didn't go through. You were probably quickly replaced and they one shot it after you left.

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I already answered. It's not that he wasn't trying. He did stun once or twice, but most of the time he was locked down by GCD. As for why they didn't switch roles I cannot say. He never really said anything for the entire time I was there.

It doesn't really matter what reason you choose. It's not like you're going to get in trouble for picking AFK when someone was actually harassing you or vice versa. Devs have already basically said as long as the majority agreed to vote kick, that's a good enough reason for them.

@OP I both like and hate this idea. I like it because I was recently in a similar position with a horrid WHM who refused to heal purely because she was "sleepy" (why que then?) and
I hate it because It should not have to come to that to get players to play nicely. People should be prepared to do their role upon queuing for a dungeon. If you're sleepy or watching your kid, or cooking supper, then please dont queue. Wait until your done the other task!

Coincidentally, I made a topic about reform to the vote dismiss system. But not along the lines as being suggested here.

However, the bunch of you need to focus and come back to why this is a pertinent issue to overall game enjoyment.

As I recall, every automated ticket answer I get from the Support Desk includes some snippet about "we understand that you are trying to enjoy the game without interruptions and blah blah blah." If this is true in any sense, then surely something such as a player intentionally refusing to do their role, or even come properly prepared, is a relevant concern.

Yes, OP voluntarily joined a random duty. Note the key word here: Random. No one made him, or forced him to participate in what can be considered a gamble. ("It's like my momma always says, life's like a box of chocolates. Ya never know whatchu gonna get.")

But OP did not choose to suffer the trivial antics of what could possibly be a 12 year old on a sibling's account. (Remember, game is rated T for teen. Though of course, that doesn't prevent idiots from playing anyway).

Despite the mechanism behind matchmaking with random duty-finding setups, each participant has a typical set of expectations. 1. The party will consist of the basic setup: 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 DPS. That means there are expectations that tanks will do what tanks are supposed to do, healers do what healers are supposed to do, etc. No, there doesn't need to be a profound level of proficiency, but at least the basics grasped since they are level 50 or whatever level of expected experience.

Ifrit HM: Are you to tell me that the OT without a shield is a grandmaster player of some kind? He played GLA and PLD through all its entirety to level 50 only to now come to a conclusion, "shields suck! I'm gonna throw mine away!" Highly doubtful! Of the dungeons he needs to complete via random DF queueing to progress through that storyline, he must have met people whom he had a shield on for. Or, he must have met people who made suggestions like, "umm... dude? Shouldn't you have a shield equipped?"

Don't try to defend someone like the described OT in OP's post. There is no excuse. It is a clear case of "trolling." While in combat, you cannot change equipment. So by not having the shield equipped, there is nothing he can do about it despite wipes, deaths, or defeats. Yes, after a defeat he can re-equip it. But oh gosh, look at that, forgot again! Oh well! Combat's already begun! Chop, chop! Ifrit's hungry!

Clear case of trolling and/or making lame excuses so he doesn't have to feel obligated to do something that would be "expected" of him. "I don't have a shield so I don't have to MT or be a stun biotch."

I firmly support any means to promote change for the vote dismiss system so that it can be more defensible vs those who take advantage of it, and to punish those who play solely to ruin others' experiences.

Relax in the end it is just a game that seems like too many take too seriously. SO what if the party wipes? BFD imo. I only care when it's obvious that we're being wiped on purpose. Players need to learn and practice, need help. Some don't learn some do, usually won't learn when other's are being jerks. No patience at all is what I mostly see. Not like you lose xp or delevel ie: Dynamis.