first it was crafting and gathers, now it pvpers...

Perhaps the 1st battleground is based on no morale as an introduction and next patches we might get new battlegrounds with morale.

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Originally Posted by Celebcarca

They could easily accomplish this with an exclusive gear set color.... No need for morale..... Same stats as comparable coil gear.

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Are you seriously suggesting people would go out of there way to obtain gear that's exactly the same as Coil gear, but a different colour?

Sorry, that isn't a system for progress. That's a vanity system. I honestly don't know if you're being serious or not. They might as well not add any new gear to the game, people will be happy doing Coil 3 just to obtain some gear that has a different colour, not need to increase iLv or stats. All progression takes is a different colour of gear.

Sorry if I hit a nerve pointing out that you were completely wrong with regards to PvE/PvP balance, though.

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Originally Posted by Ispen

You'd be surprised how far people will go or pay to look different on a MMO

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Still besides the point though. Vanity gear doesn't differentiate PvP gear from PvE gear. It would literally just be vanity gear. There's no "I obtain AF, then Darklight, then Mythology/Coil, etc." that we see with PvE. PvP should have an equivalent to that, and it almost did, but SE screwed progression over so hard, the progression "curve" for PvP was poorly balanced. i70 PvP gear should have been much easier to obtain, if that were the case, entering a i80 cap Frontlines with Morale wouldn't be such a massive deal. You do Frontlines, you like it, you grind some Wolves' Den and get i70 quickly, you're on an almost level playing field with everyone else in Frontlines (i90 PvP would be capped down to i80).

That would have provided motivation for players to actually use Wolves' Den, instead Frontlines looks set to kill Wolves' Den in its entirety and then fizzle out after a few months. Without progression and a core community behind it, queues will just be far too inconsistent for people to realistically enter "for fun".

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

That is pretty much what the Myth/Soldiery gear is.

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Except for the fact that you could only obtain a finite amount of Myth/Coil1 gear a week, and can now only obtain a finite amount of Sold/Coil2 gear a week, sure.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Are you seriously suggesting people would go out of there way to obtain gear that's exactly the same as Coil gear, but a different colour?

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You'd be surprised how far people will go or pay to look different on a MMO

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Are you seriously suggesting people would go out of there way to obtain gear that's exactly the same as Coil gear, but a different colour?

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That is pretty much what the Myth/Soldiery gear is.

I'm still surprised that there are people who legitimately think uneven stats make PVP exciting.

http://i.imgur.com/9aXYEWt.gif

I'm really starting to think that a lot of people commenting here are coming from the perspective of not actually having played much PvP, because there's a lot of stuff that is either flat out wrong or hyperbole.

PvP even with Morale gear at lvl.50 is STILL very much skill-based. If you don't know what you're doing, morale gear isn't going to help you. As Nalien points out, all it does is give you a slight edge. You still need to know how to move, how to attack, which abilities to use in which order, how to set up a defensive/offensive strategy, etc.

Many of you seem to think that Morale being null is going to help you win. It will not. What good is hitting or guarding at a slightly higher percentage gonna be if the opposing team's BLM knows how to effectively lay down a screen of sleeps, or if the tank keeps the healer stunned/isolated and the rest of the team blitzes against the opposing ranged DPS? Morale is a tool, but it doesn't set the pace of the game. The players do. I'll be honest. In the hands of a person who knows the ins and outs of a PvP match, Morale can be pretty beastly, but if the person doesn't know what the hell he/she is doing(like a lot of win traders who just want glamour gear), all morale does is make a slightly more beefy target. And I say this as a rank 24 MNK who has decimated rank 40 PLDs in full rank 30 - 40 gear. Have any of you actually looked at the minute increases you get in different sets of gear anyway?

Finally, as Nalien points out, PvP as another game type in FFXIV adds another progression chain for the people who for whatever reason don't want to/can't easily get high-level PvE groups going. It adds an extra layer to the game's appeal, and frankly I can't see why anyone would be opposed to that.

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Originally Posted by Ganvire

I'm still surprised that there are people who legitimately think uneven stats make PVP exciting.

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That's OK, I'm still surprised that there are people who legitimately think Morale would be the reason they'll get curb stomped in Frontlines.

I look forward to 2.3, where all the people will enter Frontlines, get completely owned because they don't know what they're doing, then proceed never to do it again. All because SE refuses to give PvP a proper sense of progression. If it was wise to at least do Wolves' Den to obtain some i70 gear before hand, at least newbs would get a sense of how to PvP before jumping into Frontlines and damning it the moment they lose.

In fact, the majority of this thread is exactly why the should lock Frontlines behind some form of rank requirement, be it a strait up rank requirement or simply obtaining Morale first. People who claim to want to do Frontlines "for fun" seem to have zero understanding of PvP. Once they do it "for fun", they're not going to do it again, because losing isn't fun. At least if you have to put a few rounds of Wolves' Den in first, people can get a feel for PvP before throwing themselves into Frontlines.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

...Once they do it "for fun", they're not going to do it again, because losing isn't fun. At least if you have to put a few rounds of Wolves' Den in first, people can get a feel for PvP before throwing themselves into Frontlines.

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Pretty much this. The people who are only slightly interested in PvP are going to get stomped. They're going to rage about it in their FC, and then proceed to never do it again. The only people who will probably stick with it are the ones who have been having a blast progressing through PvP as is. And it won't be because of any gear bonus this time if the translation is accurate and morale will play absolutely no part. It's because there will ALWAYS be more skilled players than you(plural) or I.

So please, Yoshi P and dev team. Throw us a bone here. It'd be great if we could have a dev comment on this thread(or any thread in the PvP forum) when they are able to talk about more details to really tell us what's what.

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Originally Posted by Celebcarca

Really? You can identify glamoured PvP gear from a distance? Yeah, no....

Ohhh, you never thought to glamour your gear to look PvE or lower lvl PvP? Now who is ignorant?

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Still you, since Glamours don't work in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Celebcarca

Your view is simply the tantrum of a child---I'll prove it

PvP'ers whining that they need a stat for incentive to play PvP. How many PvE'ers will quit playing without a separate stat for them?

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PvE doesn't need a separate stat, ALL the other stats are PvE stats. If gear had no stats, do you still think people would bother progressing? You really think a gear treadmill MMO would work when the gear treadmill is solely vanity?

Look, dude. It's OK to admit you were wrong. You seemingly don't know anything about PvP, do you really think you should; A) Be posting in a PvP thread, and B) Be calling someone a child just because they actually know what they're talking about? You're really not helping your case by constantly showing you know nothing about PvP, leave it for the people who know about PvP to try and convince me I'm wrong.

EDIT: Yay, daily post limit reached!

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Originally Posted by Celebcarca

If you want morale on PvP gear, then are you willing to make PvP gear only useable in PvP? You know, so that you have to progress through PvE content the same way you expect PvE'ers to progress through PvP? Because I want to know about your PvE progress when you step into a dungeon or coil with me...

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PvE gear isn't excluded from PvP, Morale just means it's not encouraged. Likewise, since PvP gear has Morale on it, it's not encouraged for PvE; it's missing a useful stat.

If someone uses PvP gear in PvE, they'll replace it with PvE gear when they can, because PvE gear is better. The same should hold true in PvP; you can use PvE gear, but once you can get some PvP gear, you should use that, because it's better. Both have their own progression.

You're welcome to not do Coil with someone in PvP gear though. I mean, someone who's done Brayflox back to back to obtain Tomestones is bound to have more experience at Coil.

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Originally Posted by Celebcarca

I don't know anything about your playing, I am speaking from experience in dealing with other PvP'ers.

PvE stats ARE PvP stats...they don't stop functioning in PvP, so they aren't exclusively PvE stats.

And I never said that soldiery gear shows skill. Just like i90 myth gear doesn't---just like having all 50's doesn't.

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So... What's your point?

PvP gear should stop working in PvE because, just like 90% of PvE gear, it doesn't show how good you are at PvE?

I want Morale on PvP gear, because that gives PvP progression. They could work it either way, they could have made a PvE stat that doesn't work in PvP and makes PvP gear more appealing, but they didn't because, like someone stated earlier, PvP is more of an afterthought in this game. It's 90% PvE, 10% PvP. It makes more sense for PvP to get the unique stat with that in mind, you need to differentiate PvP from PvE, so you give PvP its own stat. Since that stat does nothing in PvE, PvP gear isn't something you'd even want to use in PvE.

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Originally Posted by Celebcarca

Would it help you if I put all my coil gear back on? On this job? On all the other jobs I have to 50? Sure, it won't validate skill even then, but it will invalidate you talking about ilvl 100 while your avatar is decked out in i90 myth gear.

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Ahhh... Now I see.... Ad Hominem...

So, what's your game plan here? Say I can't talk about iLv100 unless I equip some, because I said you can't talk about PvP because you've frequently displayed a gross lack of understanding of this games PvP? Classy.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

I'm really starting to think that a lot of people commenting here are coming from the perspective of not actually having played much PvP, because there's a lot of stuff that is either flat out wrong or hyperbole.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Celebcarca

Really? You can identify glamoured PvP gear from a distance? Yeah, no....

Ohhh, you never thought to glamour your gear to look PvE or lower lvl PvP? Now who is ignorant?

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I rest my case. :(

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Originally Posted by Celebcarca

I guess so then... I like how you gloss over the points that you find inconvenient to your case, though.


If you want morale on PvP gear, then are you willing to make PvP gear only useable in PvP? You know, so that you have to progress through PvE content the same way you expect PvE'ers to progress through PvP? Because I want to know about your PvE progress when you step into a dungeon or coil with me...

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Please, stop, don't write anything more because you are failing so hard

Bard ilvl 100 pvp
http://puu.sh/9tQH1/62dc0aff06.png

Check the sentence

Materia effects active during PvP only.

Bard ilvl 100 soldier
http://puu.sh/9tR3t/87f6ab2bf1.png

Both have got 34 dext, 39 vit.
Pve gear provide you with 38 crit and 19 det
Pvp gear give you 38 skill speed and morale

So you could use pvp gear in a pve scenary but your dps is not compared with a pve. Ofc you can do brayflox hm, halatali and primals, but try to do second coil wearing pvp gear, you miss a lot and your dps will be low.

Now, we have the same in frontlines, where the 4th stat, morale, doesn't work and using a pvp gear in a pvp scenary is useless.

I don't care about if i am synch to ilvl 80, i just enter in frontlines wearing my pvp gear because i spent months to can gear it.
Without the morale you snatch the advantage from pvp player to give it to pve players.

My mistake...my apologies....my departure

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Originally Posted by Ganvire

I'm still surprised that there are people who legitimately think uneven stats make PVP exciting.

http://i.imgur.com/9aXYEWt.gif

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The player base of a PvE game :/

The most popular pvp games in the world are these where there is no vertical progression at all (cs, dota2, sc2) or minimal, very easy capped vertical progression (league of legends). This way everything becomes decided by player skill, rather that grinding best gear by win trading.

Players who have Morale gear are still going to be better than you, even if Morale means nothing. They've taken part in this games PvP to obtain that gear (sans win traders), they know how to win.

The idea that removing Morale will create a level playing field is absurd. It doesn't. People who put time into PvP in this game are still going to destroy those who haven't. The only thing Morale does is create the illusion that, by also obtaining that gear, you'd be just as good. That provides incentive for people to participate in Wolves' Den. That creates a health and active PvP community in a PvE game. One which allows people to just queue randomly, because there is always a core community there allowing people to join.

Seriously, you can all pretend Morale is some super stat that will prevent you all from winning, but... What is actually stopping you from obtaining Morale gear yourself? You don't want to? So... You want to partake in Frontlines, which is PvP content, but you don't want to bother with PvP content? If I was complaining for Coil to be adjusted such that you only need AF to beat it, I'd be laughed at; "You should have to grind for i70, i90, and i100 to do Coil!", yet when it comes to Frontlies we shouldn't have to obtain anything?

For a PvP game to be able to survive solely on "fun", it needs to be insanely popular. Do you really think Frontlines is going to draw the same numbers as LoL? It wont. Comparing a pure PvP game to a PvE game that has PvP is utterly inane. There will be an initial hype, then it'll die down and queuing will take so long people wont bother. Without any sense of balanced progression in PvP (the current progression we have is far from balanced), people simply are not going to partake in it for long. Yoshida can either give XIVs PvP proper progression to keep people coming back, or he can hope to churn out new PvP content as frequently as possible and make it a "flavour of the month" style PvP experience.

Personally, I'd rather see him focus on balanced progression, because the other option seems like a waste of resources. Why make the old content moot when it can be part of the progression? Wolves' Den will server no purpose in XIV if you build Frontlines around a "balanced playing field". If someone who has put more time in than you has an advantage, you go and earn the same advantage in Wolves' Den. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by TornadoFury

reason i don't pvp is because its to unbalanced and unfun kill healer gg... i love frontlines i hope they add more gametypes. maybe add a fc vs fc and other stuff.

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How can you love something before you've even tried it? I really cannot see Frontlines playing too differently to Wolves' Den; taking out the healer is still going to be a priority.

Frontlines give wolf marks. For PVP gear. That adds morale.

Why would anyone think morale is negated in Frontlines? It doesn't add up. SE never confirmed this and people need to stop spreading this until it's official.

reason i don't pvp is because its to unbalanced and unfun kill healer gg... i love frontlines i hope they add more gametypes. maybe add a fc vs fc and other stuff.

PVP is unbalanced because pve players go to 50s queue where PVP players know his jobs and how kill a unexperience player.

Hello, i am a healer/dps having 3k hp 0 morale, i queue pvp for fun. Oh no, i die so fast, pvp sucks. I gonna farm myth to get my novus

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Originally Posted by rappa

PVP is unbalanced because pve players go to 50s queue where PVP players know his jobs and how kill a unexperience player.

Hello, i am a healer/dps having 3k hp 0 morale, i queue pvp for fun. Oh no, i die so fast, pvp sucks. I gonna farm myth to get my novus

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Main reason we need Wolves' Den to have brackets like I suggested earlier in this thread; i55 capped Wolves' Den would be a perfect addition to PvP. The gear is readily available, and the difference between i55 Morale and i55 PvE is marginal at best. It would be something anyone can jump into (Roulettes for PvP bringing people in higher iLvs to it to boost numbers) and allows you to farm i70 PvP fairly easily, which would be ideal for Frontlines.

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Originally Posted by TornadoFury

reason i don't pvp is because its to unbalanced and unfun kill healer gg... i love frontlines i hope they add more gametypes. maybe add a fc vs fc and other stuff.

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When the healer stops being the person who can revive players and restore their wounds, then they'll stop being the prime target for players in PvP. :P

Wolves' Den, Frontlines, whatever. You're never gonna get a break on this one.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Main reason we need Wolves' Den to have brackets like I suggested earlier in this thread; i55 capped Wolves' Den would be a perfect addition to PvP. The gear is readily available, and the difference between i55 Morale and i55 PvE is marginal at best. It would be something anyone can jump into (Roulettes for PvP bringing people in higher iLvs to it to boost numbers) and allows you to farm i70 PvP fairly easily, which would be ideal for Frontlines.

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Or, they can do what they're planning to do and make the gear mostly irrelevant. So that way, the players who can play well themselves and with their group will have higher amounts of success.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Or, they can do what they're planning to do and make the gear mostly irrelevant. So that way, the players who can play well themselves and with their group will have higher amounts of success.

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Yes, and all the new players who don't know what they're doing, and get completely destroyed by veterans as a result, can rage quit. There really is no sense in making Frontlines the entry level content for PvP.

New players who get destroyed by veterans aren't going to enjoy it, and they're not going to come back. If they had some sense that they should do Wolves' Den with other newbs to get a sense for PvP, then they'd at least stand a chance. Saying "Go to Wolves' Den to get Morale gear" works in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Yes, and all the new players who don't know what they're doing, and get completely destroyed by veterans as a result, can rage quit. There really is no sense in making Frontlines the entry level content for PvP.

New players who get destroyed by veterans aren't going to enjoy it, and they're not going to come back. If they had some sense that they should do Wolves' Den with other newbs to get a sense for PvP, then they'd at least stand a chance. Saying "Go to Wolves' Den to get Morale gear" works in that regard.

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And those aren't the type of players suited for PvP, figured this would be common knowledge. You don't bring the laid back and relax attitude to PvP, since it runs contrary to it.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

When the healer stops being the person who can revive players and restore their wounds, then they'll stop being the prime target for players in PvP.

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That's the same in all the set-team and open-team PvP I've ever participated in. "Kill the !@#$% Healer!" "Ignore the Tank until last, he's got too much Health and does about as much damage as a paper cut!"

Unless you get novel formats for PvP, like SWTOR Huttball, where it's more like "Kill that @## Sorc/Consular!" because they've got Force Sprint and make awesome ballcarriers :)

I don't see why there even needs to be a PvP stat in the first place. I never could understand why it would be a problem for PvP to reward gear for people who want to PvP only, but have that gear be the same as any other gear. Would it really be that bad if people could use their PvE gear in PvP and their PvP gear in PvE?

I do fixed gear 4v4s (AF1, no PVP gear) with my FC every weekend. I wear 70 stuff on my right side while everyone else is permitted to use anything. I still wreck everybody's face, and I'm pretty sure the handful of extra points I get for being r37 aren't the reason for it.

It's just really annoying that my awesome looking animal set I busted my ass in solo queue for months to get, is going to be unusable in frontlines. Unless I want to run around missing a whole secondary stat compared to everyone else. At least let me use the gear, they even confirmed that you get wolf marks from frontlines...so why reward people with worthless gear? Makes no sense.

Morale was a dumb idea in the first place.


/thread.