binding of coil extreme mode

...so we are getting the bugged version of T5 twisters again?

Whats the point in adding a Brutal version if your gonna nerf it 3 months down the road.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

Also, we need Brutal Labyrinth of the Ancients.

I heard your original design was so outlandishly difficult, you had to tone it down a ton.

Put that in the game!!!

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^THIS !!

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Originally Posted by Beetle

Whats the point in adding a Brutal version if your gonna nerf it 3 months down the road.

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The version you have currently is a nerfed version, even T9. If they ever release the "Brutal version" (aka, untuned versions), they won't nerf it at all. Else it would defeat the purpose

More recycled content. Great.

Well the hardcore and elitists are getting their "challenges". Still no sign of progressive content for mainstream players like open world dungeons and roaming primals. At least get more farm content like beast hunts, I think. Really hope Golden Saucer has good minigames though can't expect triple triad, blitzball, and command board.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

...so we are getting the bugged version of T5 twisters again?

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They weren't bugged, they were just very particular about what was safe and what was not, made further difficult by player latency.

You could almost say that those twisters were...brutal.

Going by what the stream said, were getting the pre-release version. You can consider the original (for us) version of T5 as nerfed. Due to that...

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Originally Posted by Zephyranthes

More recycled content. Great.

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This isnt correct.

Recycled crap, yaaaayyyy

My guess is BG will probably have cleared Brutal Mode within a month of it's release just like with Coils 2.

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Originally Posted by MDC

Stop recycling your content. It is starting to get old really fast.

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They could very easily not add extreme and brutal versions of fights. That wouldn't magically make new content come out. It takes a lot less work to tweak a fight to make it harder than to create new content. Having recycled content gives us something to do, so stop complaining.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

Also, we need Brutal Labyrinth of the Ancients.

I heard your original design was so outlandishly difficult, you had to tone it down a ton.

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So basically Atomos styled fights from start to finish. They lowered the difficulty in CT by making the fights less alliance reliant (one party can't progress unless another party is doing something that let's them).

No, making recycled content does take company time and money. This time could be better spent giving us more quality new content which does not need recycling in order to keep us busy. Slower released content with more meaning is more important than Monster Hunter style fights with different difficulty modes for no reason other than to buy time.

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Originally Posted by MDC

No, making recycled content does take company time and money. This time could be better spent giving us more quality new content which does not need recycling in order to keep us busy. Slower released content with more meaning is more important than Monster Hunter style fights with different difficulty modes for no reason other than to buy time.

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It think myself and several others can disagree that Monster Hunter fights are awesome. Coil is anything but a Monster Hunter style of fight let alone the upcoming brutal mode. As for time. They take the coding for the original versions they made, program a quest. Test the quest. Release. Not NEARLY as much work as you think.

You know what

its nothing more than just another Myth Grind if they care to add 200 myth rewards by clear it lol (each)

The brutal coil will be "clear once and forget about it" because of no additional rewards, but its exactly what it should be like.

This is part of A REASON, why players are migrating to other games, like Wildstar, because you introduce high risk with no reward-- I'm sorry, but a title isn't rewarding enough by itself. I hate to reference this game on here, because of all the hate, but take a great game like World of Warcraft in it's prime-- Heroic mode encounters or "Hard Modes" would reward players with increased ilvl equipment and weapons, TITLES, and MOUNTS. That was great incentive for many players including myself, whom aspired to be the best. There were even server first exclusive titles for a time as well. I understand that this concept creates division among the casual and the hardcore players, but people play the game for different reasons. Some like the challenge AND the reward. Why can't the Developers cater to both sides equally, instead of truly catering towards the casual player-base.

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Originally Posted by Illa

Why can't the Developers cater to both sides equally

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Such a notion is preposterous. There's no such thing as different sides all consumers fall under the category of "consumers".

I kid but what is noticeable on every major patch is that their priority is Coil, CT, Primals, Dungeons, Main Scenario, beast tribe dailies, hildebrand, and other small tidbits I can't remember all at once.

To cater to both sides equally that would require drastic change from what they are currently doing. I keep hearing that everything is perfectly planned and what not and set for I dunno how many years. Yet at the rates everything is happening they really need to revise that to be more enjoyable than simply being a development existence we have no clue and input on.

So this is basically what I've got from this discussion.
Group A OMG pls no recycled content.
Group B Yay a new challenge but not enough reward.
The development cycle for a AAA MMO is very long, those nice shiny graphics take a very long development cycle to refine and lots of man hours, much more so than an older MMO like FFXI and WoW. They've planned out the direction for the game 12+ months in advance based off of expected subscription sales. FFXIV is way above those expected values however it is unlikely we will see much change int he current development of the game. Possibly in the future with an expanded team (based off of actual subscription numbers) we could see larger scale development with more overall content but they just don't have the budget to do that. Honestly if they don't increase their amount of raid content after their first major expansion then I'd see reason to complain but at this stage in development they're still releasing their base systems (housing, gardening, treasure hunting, sightseeing, hunts, chocobo raising, arena pvp, objective pvp, gold saucer, personal housing, dungeons, primals, beast tribe quests etc.) It's hard to make an argument that they aren't developing lots of content. It's just not all raid focused. This version of coil that they are releasing is a low development budget easy to implement way of adding more content for the top tier elite players. They've already done the development cycle and testing for it (where they deemed it too hard). Adding a new title and access quest is easy, adding new sets of gear or other rewards, not so much. I'm not saying we shouldn't let our wants known and demand more. Just don't expect and major structural changes to their raid system until post 3.0

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Originally Posted by SecsyMancat

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Personally I just want them to be less restrictive and more creative and fun on their process of creating.

Really disappoints me when a fun idea is left out because of "balance".

I think a lot of people have totally missed the point of this... it is not MEANT to have much of a reward and it is not MEANT to be completed. This is meant to be the Absolute Virtue of FFXIV; a boss that is supposedly undefeatable giving the most elite of the elite a chance to prove the developers wrong.

If you need a reward to do it then you are not the intended audience, if you don't like challenging content then you are also not the intended audience. This is quite literally ONLY for the people that cleared the Second Coil in those first few weeks and are getting bored of it. Considering that this is the untuned version of the raid it actually will take very little development time to implement as all the work has already been done; all they need to do is add it to the minstrel in Rev Toll and have it unlock as a new Minstrel's Ballad.

For the record I will likely never even attempt this but I appreciate that there are some that will enjoy the challenge.

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Originally Posted by MDC

Stop recycling your content. It is starting to get old really fast.

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They release a ton of brand new content every major patch, and then make more difficult versions of old content so people can enjoy them again without facestomping it. How dare they make varied content to meet various needs?!

The only groups that will manage to clear Brutal Mode are those groups that have a high level of dedication.

I look forward to BG clearing this within a month of release.

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Originally Posted by MDC

Stop recycling your content. It is starting to get old really fast.

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this so much. i cant believe how lazy these devs are.
recycled dungeons. recycled bosses. recycled gear (lol novus and animus, you dont even get a differet looking weapon). recycled raids now. whats next?
also they cant even code the current encounters properly (with phase pushes breaking encounters and puting you in unwinable situations effectively punishing you for playing well). what makes you think they can develop harder content which needs better debuging and design?!

So many unrealistic expectations in this thread. If you aren't beating T9 then this isn't for you. It's probably taking one dev like 2 days to get it all implemented so it's not like this is sidetracking major development of other features either. Everyone needs to chill out and remember a real content patch is coming on July 8th and that will have what the average player is looking for.

/cry omg it's not accessible.

That's the point.

i remember how they once said that extreme difficulty would be the highest difficulty for primals. so if they retune them once again, i expect those recycled battles to continue endlessly.

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Originally Posted by IgnisFatuus

i remember how they once said that extreme difficulty would be the highest difficulty for primals. so if they retune them once again, i expect those recycled battles to continue endlessly.

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1) It's not "retune" it's "untune"

2) it's supposed to be a version even devs couldn't beat before release. Extreme version is a nerfed version of that.


Really, people whine for difficulty, then whine because said difficulty comes from totally un-nerfed content... What do you want, major update with a whole new fight totally untuned and not tested at all ?

You surely know that developers have a game to create right ? They don't have time to create an unbeatable fight (minus by a few crazy guys) just for the sake of it..

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

1) It's not "retune" it's "untune"

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you can believe that if you want, but this thing has to go through QA like anything else. they won't release anything that's unbeatable by design.

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Originally Posted by IgnisFatuus

you can believe that if you want, but this thing has to go through QA like anything else. they won't release anything that's unbeatable by design.

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Have you watched the live interview ? They said that the content had not been cleared by the devs. It doesn't mean it's unbeatable by design. Devs are regular humans you know ? Knowing the fight ins and outs just isn't sufficient for these apparently.

I'm pretty sure we're done with Ifrit, Titan and Garuda.

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Originally Posted by razzgrizz3

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I see people making more of this than what it is. The hard mode dungeons have some different mobs different bosses with different mechanics and often different looks to the dungeon so not so recycled as what your making it. So they make one weapon upgradeable and because they don't make it change drastically in appearance they are recycling the crap out of gear? I know some gear models are reused but every game does that not an excuse but true none the less and like Corfish said a few posts above they bring out plenty of other new content as well.

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Originally Posted by IgnisFatuus

you can believe that if you want, but this thing has to go through QA like anything else. they won't release anything that's unbeatable by design.

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SE did it before in FFXI...

Did you actually watch the live letter? YoshiP basically said they don't actually know if it's beatable because they've never managed it. This fight is intended to be the ultimate challenge because it is unknown if it can ever be cleared. My guess is that in terms of numbers on a spreadsheet it COULD be beaten (as I assume they use a system of some kind to calculate a first pass on boss stats and other numbers) but once you factor in human reaction times it gets a little too much. A perfect team has the potential to beat it... hence why it's only aimed at those teams that downed T9 in the first few weeks.

though i like the idea of it as is. only a title gain. the only suggestion to added incentives is if you beat 2nd coil brutal, t9 brutal will just have 1 extra chest that contains 1 random drop of anything that could be obtained from 2nd coil. so a t6 drop to a t9 wep. i mean why not. if you beat t6-9 on brutal, which if it is as hard as they say it will be, minus well just get something that's already there. keep the lock out. Besides teams are already farming t9 and selling runs, i dont see 1 extra random chest being a problem in brutal. just make it so that the drop rate of a 2nd i115 wep is the lowest for the chest.

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Originally Posted by Legacy_Wolfwood

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if you need rewards for a "bragging rights" content, it is not for you

Are people really complaining about "recycled raids and dungeons in FFXIV"? I mean, come one people, almost every other MMO does it, and it's not to save on development costs. It's to increase the amount of content available to all player types. In the case of hard mode dungeons all they're recycling is the zone. You get all new bosses and typically clear a different path. Raids, well this is a first for FFXIV and it's unknown if this is going to become the norm or not, but they already had the encounters just sitting there on their hard drive and figured it would be an easy thing to implement. I feel like a lot of people complaining here didn't watch the broadcast and or has never played another major mmo.
Wow
-at one time had 4 difficulties per dungeon 10/25/10 heroic/25 heroic with 4 unique gear pools, now they've simplified down 2 normal and heroic.
-normal and heroic mode dungeons which are usually quite similar, the heroics might have 1 extra boss and slightly different mechanics.
Guild Wars 2
-each dungeon has a story path and then multiple different sidepaths
SWTOR
-Easy/Hard dungeons, pretty much the same
-Story/Hard/Nightmare raids. Yes, they really reuse their raid content. The different tiers of gear look the same just came out in different colors.

In the case of FFXIV since the only reward is bragging rights I imagine this is just a one time deal that they implemented because it's there.

this game really needs an easy mode of binding coil. one where players can work thru mechanics and not get 1 shot when they mess up. maybe the reward is no gear and only tombs, but at least they can see the mechanics and get used to them.

@Vivejun, that's what Crystal Tower is for. I like that they've set the bar at least somewhat high for the Binding Coil section of the story. Give us something to work towards and of course it will eventually get echo buff and minor mechanics tweeks once the next section of coil is out so people can catch up. The problem I see with the current setup is they release each tier of coil before each tier of CT so until 2.3 there isn't really any relevant casual raid content.

Some of you whiners need to stop flapping your gums without actually knowing what you're talking about. They said on the live letter that this was a previous version of the second coil that was too difficult for the devs to beat so they had to alter/remove some mechanics and tune some lower to make what we have in game right now. They're merely releasing this older version to see if the very best players can do what the game developers couldn't and actually beat the previous version. It's meant to be (possibly) un-winnable so why would they have a reward for something that might be impossible to beat? The actual reward for any groups who might actually be able to beat it will be the title and bragging rights so that they can say that they beat something even the devs could not. Absolutely nothing about it is recycled... it's not taking away from any new content that's coming along. (2.3/2.4 looking to be quite packed actually)

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Originally Posted by SecsyMancat

@Vivejun, that's what Crystal Tower is for. I like that they've set the bar at least somewhat high for the Binding Coil section of the story. Give us something to work towards and of course it will eventually get echo buff and minor mechanics tweeks once the next section of coil is out so people can catch up. The problem I see with the current setup is they release each tier of coil before each tier of CT so until 2.3 there isn't really any relevant casual raid content.

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I wish they reversed the order of CT/Coil updates since Coil gear is lower ilvl than CT. Would make gearing up to do the next coil easier. As it is my WHM is sitting in full soldiery gear since there is no other options (besides Mog Necklace) at i100. I'm working towards clearing Coil 2 but haven't been able to get any drops yet.

@Yonko I agree that the order should be switched, however when a section of coil gets released the previous one will get echo, so at least the casual players who were not through T5 yet have an opportunity now to do so. Also it's been announced that Oil of Time and Sands of Time will drop from CT2 so this time around there will be i110 gear progression from CT.