with this mindset the future looks dim

It doesn't have to get worse.
I go through great lengths to avoid using DF because I don't want to deal with immature pricks.
If people harass you report them. Their behavior is unacceptable. Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself or others if the situation calls for it.
Mind you, never, ever get into an argument with those people but also, don't be a doormat.

However, I strongly suggest you do your best to get at least part of a static going so that you can, at least a couple of people you can queue up with- it will make the world of difference.

That being said, looking up the fight would have been helpful. Mainly because of how quickly the fight goes and the positioning can be a bit tricky if it's your first time there. However, that is not exactly a requirement when queuing up via DF. You seem like a smart lad, no doubt, you would have figured it out if that person bothered communicating.
If that person wanted a 100% clear then he should have PF'd it~

It's really disheartening to see people actually try to argue that you should be looking up fights before you even do them. I've loved most of my time with this game, but I'm not sure I can go on playing when there's so many people who make it feel like work. I just hit level 50 the other day, and have been putting off all the dungeons I have left just because I really don't enjoy playing with most of the community anymore. On rare occasions, I'll run into a really friendly group that help me through stuff when I ask for help and it's an absolute blast, but most of the time there's just a really hostile air in the group that ruins the entire dungeon for me.

I don't understand why people even get mad, either. It's not like you lose anything more than a small amount of gil when you die. Well, at least in the normal mode stuff, no idea what happens in the " end-game " stuff.

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Originally Posted by Steadying

It's really disheartening to see people actually try to argue that you should be looking up fights before you even do them. I've loved most of my time with this game, but I'm not sure I can go on playing when there's so many people who make it feel like work. I just hit level 50 the other day, and have been putting off all the dungeons I have left just because I really don't enjoy playing with most of the community anymore. On rare occasions, I'll run into a really friendly group that help me through stuff when I ask for help and it's an absolute blast, but most of the time there's just a really hostile air in the group that ruins the entire dungeon for me.

I don't understand why people even get mad, either. It's not like you lose anything more than a small amount of gil when you die. Well, at least in the normal mode stuff, no idea what happens in the " end-game " stuff.

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If you read what the image in the OP says, he asked for info on the fight in the chat. Which contradicts his whole post. Also it's time, not gil, that is the problem. People think that teaching a few people here and there should be no big deal. People think that's all that will really ever happen, which is wrong. When you do as many dungeons and raids as some people, you practically get pigeonholed into teaching people near constantly. And one last thing, someone in the thread mentioned they wiped their group a dozen times because they didn't pick up the mechanics quickly enough. A dozen. I myself would not allow myself to take that long to learn.

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Originally Posted by ispano

And one last thing, someone in the thread mentioned they wiped their group a dozen times because they didn't pick up the mechanics quickly enough. A dozen. I myself would not allow myself to take that long to learn.

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Then you are godblessed with incredible knowledge/reflexes so that you can learn and master anything in under 2 tries, or you gave up on anything you failed to master in the same amount of time.

Or you are incredibly intolerant with people who are slower to learn than you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steadying

It's really disheartening to see people actually try to argue that you should be looking up fights before you even do them. I've loved most of my time with this game, but I'm not sure I can go on playing when there's so many people who make it feel like work. I just hit level 50 the other day, and have been putting off all the dungeons I have left just because I really don't enjoy playing with most of the community anymore. On rare occasions, I'll run into a really friendly group that help me through stuff when I ask for help and it's an absolute blast, but most of the time there's just a really hostile air in the group that ruins the entire dungeon for me.

I don't understand why people even get mad, either. It's not like you lose anything more than a small amount of gil when you die. Well, at least in the normal mode stuff, no idea what happens in the " end-game " stuff.

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Its actually rather simple, if the rest of the party knows the fight, it is exceedingly selfish to expect 7 other players to silently wipe with you while you enjoy the process of finding out the mechanics.

If you want a first-timer only party to practice without watching video guides or reading guides, the onus is on you to create your own party, as your preferred way of approaching end game content just isn't the way most of the other players prefer it to be.

Honestly, I can see both sides of the argument.

If you enter a duty finder dungeon/raid, and everyone but one person knows what they're doing, and that one person ruins the entire experience and makes it impossible to complete, then it can be very frustrating. On the other hand, I do believe that watching YouTube videos beforehand ruins the experience of seeing a dungeon or raid for the first time, especially in a story dungeon. The main problem here is experienced players being partied up with first-timers against their will.

I think SE should implement a 'first time' filter within Duty Finder that is on by default (and can't be changed) when a person signs up for a duty for the first time, and maybe experienced players can click the 'first time' filter for a dungeon to help out for a reward. The reward for completing a dungeon or raid with 1 or more new persons (which is already in place) should also be increased dramatically.

Until then, users should make their own party within Party Finder for their first time in a dungeon or raid, specifying that it's their first time and SE should make a point of advising players to do this within game. Make it so that the 'newcomers' filter within Party Finder can only be selected if the Party Leader is new to the dungeon / raid, and enabling that filter means a reward (soldiery or whatever) is distributed to all party members if that duty is completed. This reward is automatically advertised on the Party Finder selection screen so that anyone browsing can see it would benefit them for helping out.

I'm personally not a fan of DF becoming a learners tool.

I said it in another thread, and I'll say it again.

If you use the DF, and then are confused as to why people don't know the fights, then you're ignorant of the tool you're using.
If you want a group that knows fights, then use Party Finder with the requirement that everyone knows the fights.

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Originally Posted by Dano

to be fair,

you did asked "What do we need to know?"

in which the person answered "Go watch a youtube video of it", so nothing wrong with this.

you were going in expecting to be spoonfed with the info but people didn't bother to do it for you so now you complain.

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No the person actually said "You come into fight without lookign it upo?" Lol.

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Originally Posted by Macka

No the person actually said "You come into fight without lookign it upo?" Lol.

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it wasn't put across well but it practically meant the same thing, if you could ask what to look out for, you could well go research on your own too.

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Originally Posted by DarkStaoneDragon

I was just in a T4 run that just started off with a bang... here is a screenshot of the chat, I have a brown line through my name green line through his, and circled what was said after I asked what I needed to know, I hid all the names,

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Honestly, what did you expect? That everyone would teach you? It is not their job, they are paying to play, not paying to teach.

This is the key point.
You went into the fight asking what to do, you wanted them to teach you something you could have done before by reading a couple of strategy guides. So due to laziness on your side you expected others to do what you couldn't be bothered to do before.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

The plague of youtube warriors has been here since day one, and it will never go away. If you do not know a fight, that is what duty finder is for. If you are in a party finder, and do not know what a fight is, especially if it is a group listed as a kill group / farm group, you are going to get chastised for it. Otherwise, you were not wrong for going into t4 without previous knowledge in duty finder.

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You are if first thing you say is asking what to do. You are not going in blind then. You are going in with a guide. Same as looking at a guide on the internet written by people willing to explain mechanics to help people like the OP. You know those strats people type out for those that don't research the fight but expect others to teach them? They the same thing as guides on the internet they can look up beforehand... go figure.

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Originally Posted by Luxx

You're still taking the time to explain it.
Well, you cannot force one to watch a video, nor can you force one to tell you what to do, or explain.
We still have people doing T1 for example, screwing up 100 million times
and people just reiterate. I still explain to people anyways just because I guess I'm nice enough to do so.
Also, not going to apologize for not watching a video. Wtf? lol.No one is obligated to watch a video neither.
So now what lol.

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There a major difference between "sorry not sure how i gained enmity here" - "it helps to use SoS" and "hi first time what do i do?!!!" - "well in the first phase ...." major difference.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

There is a little difference between having read a detailed guide/watched a video and just have a few guide lines in the beginning of a new fight. I guess it would be the difference between being spoonfed and being served a meal.
You still have to figure out what the hell is happening to you in real time
As an example, I went in a moggle Ex group as a tank. No video, no guide, nothing. People just said "tank the kind, trade hate cuz stack, don't kill the adds". I still wiped us like a noob a dozen of times because I was late on trading, letting the adds having the damage buff, taking the meteor... Tons of fun really (joking here..).
Though it's true that there isn't much difference, as watching a video beforehand is about as useful as doing nothing. You know the big lines, and missed the tons of details which would allow you to do a proper job.

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There is a difference between going in with a general idea of what to do and going in with zero knowledge. Those dozen of wipes would have been cut a bit had you went in with even minimal understanding of the fight. People will be happy to give you pointers and tips, but not when you go in knowing nothing and expecting them to explain to you what you could have pretty much known had you watched a video/read a guide.

So you want to go into the dungeon and have someone tell you what to do...as opposed to finding a website that tells you what to do.

That's really all this comes down to. There is absolutely no good reason for doing what you did.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Then you are godblessed with incredible knowledge/reflexes so that you can learn and master anything in under 2 tries, or you gave up on anything you failed to master in the same amount of time.

Or you are incredibly intolerant with people who are slower to learn than you.

---

Regardless of the reason, if the group is random, you're potentially taking up the time of people who know the fight to learn. That reason is the biggest reason I am the way I am, more so than wanting to push myself to get better. Also, if you learn slower than others, why not try to push yourself to notice things better or more quickly? There ARE things that a person can do to become better learners.

If you want to go into a fight blind, by all means feel free. My coil static likes to do a few blind run attempts on a new turn before looking up strategies, just for the fun of it. If you aren't running with a group of people you know, there's no obligation to have any knowledge of the fight. DF is DF, and people going into a DF group should know that it is possible they will get matched up with first-timers going into a fight blind.

But, you cannot say... "I like to go in blind" while at the same time saying other people should explain fights to you. There is no functional difference, in that sense, from looking up a strat online and asking people to explain. You aren't blind either way, because you knew exactly what to do beforehand. Whether that is a few minutes beforehand, or a few days after watching a video, is up to you. The only real difference is that you are expecting people (probably strangers) to explain the fight when you could have just as easily looked it up, thus using your time to research the fight and not forcing others to wait.

Now, I am not saying you did anything wrong. Wanting to go in blind is okay. But, please consider the time use of things before saying others were necessarily being mean. I teach people coil turns all the time, usually by giving a little speech beforehand... but in this situation, there really isn't a right or wrong... just difference of opinion, because you DID ask what to do. The other player didn't need to be that rude, but I understand where they are coming from. T4 isn't exactly hard, but depending on your role there is a lot to know (what order to kill things in, etc). Personally, I prefer to know what needs to get done before I enter a DF group, but I don't expect/assume others will.

Get a FC or a link shell then you can avoid as many assholes on here like the plague. Just take comfort in the knowledge that people act tough on the internet because they can.

In my experioence, watching a video before a fight does more harm than good. I find myself trying to remember what I saw and how it fits with what is going on instead of paying attention to what is actually happening. I prefer to go in and feel the environment and then I hav a frame of reference when I watch a video. I can't recall how many times I saw the Titan HM video before I went in. It still took me 65 runsto beat it and most of the fight never made sense for the first 30 even watching the videos ahead of time.

Even now, I still haven't beaten Titan EX. I watched a video but with no real frame of reference, i.e. doing it, I didn't know what was happening. Now that I have seen the majority of the fight, up to the adds, I can watch a video because it makes sense.

Not everyone can learn by watching. I am much better at learning while doing. Then I suppliment my learnign by watching a video or reading a guide after if I can't figure it out.

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Originally Posted by Luxx

Tell me about it lol.
I play on PS3 tbh, I think it's just whoever being a butthead tbh. It's people always worrying about 'time' in this game so
we must know everything or get knocked upside the head.

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And you are part of that toxic player base not bothering to look up any tacts because you want someone to tell you. That's lazy.

People like the OP are the reason i don't run T4 anymore at all in DF, even with my mostly istant queue as a Tank.

If you don't want to spoil the fight for yourself or are against watching a guide for some weird reason, then make a Party Finder group on your server and do it that way with people like you.

Coil is not Sastasha or Copperbell Mine, you just can't go in blind and expect to rollface the content somehow. You won't beat the encounter and you'll waste other people time and also piss them off. This is especially true for Tanks and T4, since both MT and OT play a major role in that encounter, so much that going blind will result always in a waste of time and no kill.

The fact that you even felt entitled to make this kind of post is just hilarious to me.

One thing is this Duty Finder which is a random mechanism for putting parties together.As it is random then you should expect to go into a fight with any sort of player and not put any expectations on them. If you want a certain level of ability or knowledge or really any requirement then this is what party finder is for. At the same time though this is the top tier of duty finder content so going in completely blind in my opinion is not exactly acceptible as its our equivalent of top tier static content. I'm not suggesting everyone should watch a video but reading the key points of a fight should be the minimum. Again if you want to do coil completely blind then party finder is where it should be. FOr content on duty finder bellow this though this should not be an expectation as I said because its random. I always read or watch only because it makes me feel more comfertable but if its not top tier duty finder then there should be no expectations.

so let me get all this straight...

you have made it to lv50 pld, an still not figured it out that it is part of your job to know what your doing and lead the way?
you think your time is > 7 other peoples?
you think there is a difference between reading what someone says on a chatlog an what someone says on a website?
coil is /faceroll an requires no preparation at all?

sounds legit

Common practice for me is to always watch a video before a fight... I like to know what to expect, and I like to not waste people's time. I will commonly join a "clear party" group having only watched the video and have minimal issues. I don't like to look like an asshat, and if I'm causing wipes, I'll always drop the party so not to waste more time.

Learn with the DF, don't bring apathy to the PF.

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Originally Posted by Adiell

Coil is not Sastasha or Copperbell Mine, you just can't go in blind and expect to rollface the content somehow. You won't beat the encounter and you'll waste other people time and also piss them off. This is especially true for Tanks and T4, since both MT and OT play a major role in that encounter, so much that going blind will result always in a waste of time and no kill.

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I agree. I stated my opinion earlier in the thread, but I forgot to mention that it is also a role dependant situation. If you choose to play a tank, then you have to accept a level of responsibility that comes with the role. A DPS or healer can, for the most part get along just fine without much prior knowledge (although it's still best to have some) but going in absolutely blind as a tank is just insulting. There is pretty much no other end result than wasting 7 peoples time, especially at coil level.

Lets not forget that creating an environment you like to play in, is your job and your job only.

That's why you can create an LS: inv people you like playing with or need the same content. Join a lvling FC, add friends. Use PF with search comment: going in blind, so if you are inexperienced but watched the video, do not say anything 'cause I could have watched it myself but Im against it. (Because whats the difference again when someone writes an essay in party chat about the fight?)

It just amazes me how people think it should widely be accepted that others have to teach them over and over again. We had to learn it too right? It's not like every single time people will go elite on you, thats just emphasizing your argument to make your opinion look stronger.

Now, when you join through DF, people should know by now: high risk of less experienced people. So I do understand where the OP is coming from. I for one would have made my own PF group.

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Originally Posted by AiChyan

Genuine question, why didn't you look it up?

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This. These are considered tough fights with specific coordination required to beat them. Sure, that guy might have been a d-bag, but that doesn't excuse you from going into one of the toughest dungeons in the game without any prior knowledge and expecting one of the other players to painstakingly explain the fight to you via text. Do your homework in these dungeons. It saves everyone time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adiell

Coil is not Sastasha or Copperbell Mine, you just can't go in blind and expect to rollface the content somehow. You won't beat the encounter and you'll waste other people time and also piss them off. This is especially true for Tanks and T4, since both MT and OT play a major role in that encounter, so much that going blind will result always in a waste of time and no kill.

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I think this is pretty key. In Duty Finder, people generally won't get mad if you're jumping into Sastasha or Qarn or Ifrit HM or Brayflox HM or something for your first time, so long as you actually say, "hi, first time here". Hell, people will be glad to help you out - compared to the angry they will be when you muck it up because you missed some mechanic and didn't say anything.

However, that's them.

Coil and EX Primals, especially as you get further on in both of those? The levels of coordination, knowledge, and execution required is way above the rest. Going into a random party when you have 0 idea what's expected of you, and zero willingness to try to find out in advance, is painful at best to everyone else in your group because now the group is functionally starting from scratch.

If you want to do that super high tier content blind, make a Party Finder group, say you're learning. You'll get a group easy, and you won't be forcing people to watch you wipe 10 seconds in, over and over.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Did you mean, the first FC going into an encounter just released, will have to hack the SE code to know how it works before doing it?

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They went blind because they had no other choice. FC's that completed the hardest content in the game are made of people who know how to squeeze everything out of their job. Most players in this game do not fall inside this category, and most groups that wipe will do so not from mechanics, but from now knowing how to play their Job to the fullest extent, whether it be tanks who cannot mitigate/hold enmity, healers who overheal, and DPS who don't have the slightest clue about their rotation (and get very mad when you point it out).

It's good to know that there are decent people who will take a few minutes to explain things to a first timer rather than use the watch a video solution.

I remember the days when people actually work together to figure out a fight as a group instead of watching you tube videos. Sad times, sad times.

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

It's good to know that there are decent people who will take a few minutes to explain things to a first timer rather than use the watch a video solution.

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Despite the fact I would rather you watch the video I have explained the fight dozens of times to people regardless. It's exhausting, but I do it. I still find it very disappointing when people want me to do everything for them, and it's disappointing how many more wipes are required before we make progress. Yes, people won't learn everything from watching a video so some explanation for clarity is always required anyway, but it absolutely still saves time since it effects how many times we will wipe to silly mechanics that were easily explained away in the video. This allows my summary to be more productive and we don't wipe as much. Wasting the time of 7 other people because you're too lazy to do minimal levels of research is insulting to every person there. You care so little for their time.

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

It's good to know that there are decent people who will take a few minutes to explain things to a first timer rather than use the watch a video solution.

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Why spend "a few minutes to explain things" when you can address them to a video that does exactly the same thing?

This isn't a matter of wanting to experience the fight blind, this is a matter of wanting someone else to digest information for you; information you can find for yourself. This is the reason lmgtfy.com was created, basically.

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As for wanting to experience content blind, I can see the merit in that. It is, however, very inconsiderate of the person to force a group of strangers into this, as it pretty much will ensure a completely failed run and most likely these strangers that joined DF wanted at least a legitimate chance at beating it. Yet, it's anyone's right to play as they want.

I rarely DF these things anymore, but if I was to find a key class joining completely blind to a duty like Coil 4 or 5, I would likely just leave. There's a line where kindness becomes pampering.

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Originally Posted by Bizniztyme

I remember the days when people actually work together to figure out a fight as a group instead of watching you tube videos. Sad times, sad times.

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Do you remember a time when you were in college and had 12-14hrs a day to play and wiping to something for 8hrs was no issue instead of working full time with a social life and only playing a couple hours a night a couple nights a week... Pepperidge farm remembers.

Seriously though if you want to learn as you go that's fine but if you are going that route don't ask for any info because you are no longer going in blind to learn on your own you are going in lazy.

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Originally Posted by dannycookies

If you're not going to make the effort to watch a video or read a guide, why should your group make the effort to explain the mechanics?

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I have to agree with this. If I know what dungeon I'm going in, I damn sure try to find a video on it. I'm not that good that I don't need some prep.

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

It's good to know that there are decent people who will take a few minutes to explain things to a first timer rather than use the watch a video solution.

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The problem with this is that explaining fights to people isn't a one-time thing. I'll explain a fight to people, and 7 wipes later, after the duty is abandoned, you learned from your deaths and maybe you'll get it right the next time you queue up. After 5 more queues from me and encountering the same situation every time, you can see how this might be incredibly frustrating. You are asking other players to do what you could have done on your own time, and that is lazy, no matter how you look at it.

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Originally Posted by Yurimi

Do you remember a time when you were in college and had 12-14hrs a day to play and wiping to something for 8hrs was no issue instead of working full time with a social life and only playing a couple hours a night a couple nights a week... Pepperidge farm remembers.

Seriously though if you want to learn as you go that's fine but if you are going that route don't ask for any info because you are no longer going in blind to learn on your own you are going in lazy.

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I don't expect anyone to explain anything to me. I couldn't care any less about wipes. It's a freaking game. Chill out yo. My point stands. Sad sad times indeed.

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Originally Posted by dannycookies

If you're not going to make the effort to watch a video or read a guide, why should your group make the effort to explain the mechanics?

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cause maybe its the nice thing to do, this is why this community is volatile, no one is willing to help. some ppl may not have the chance to go watch a video shit happens. this is why there is less and lees ppl who know how to do certain fights no one is willing to giv a helpin hand, and i already know some1 is gunna reply with the asinine statement well if i had to learn the hard way why shouldnt they. ppl learn differently ppl play differently. self entitlement is very unbecoming

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Originally Posted by xenosuke1

cause maybe its the nice thing to do, this is why this community is volatile, no one is willing to help.

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Right? They play this GAME like their life depended on it or something. lol Raging just because they didn't get their precious shiny.

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Originally Posted by AiChyan

Genuine question, why didn't you look it up?

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If it's needed to look up, why isn't it in the game?

The Stages of an (New Age) EndGame MMO player:
Day 1 (newbie) - "I don't like spoilers, I'll figure it out on my own
Day 1.2 (2-hours later) - "The hell am I suppose to do?!? -> Youtube
Day 2 (I got this guys) - "This should be easy"
Day 2.2 (+1 Wisdom) - "I have much to learn"
...
Day 7 (Kill group) - "That was easy"
Day 8 (Elitist) - "You didn't look up the strat?!?"


Basically, it's up to the players to find like minded others to raid with. If you get in a party and it turns out you're the only one not knowing the fight, then you're at fault. If your the only one knowing the fight then...well, sucks to be you. If it's split, then it's basically your standard PF group.

This is why static groups tend to shine over the rest.

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Originally Posted by Bizniztyme

Right? They play this GAME like their life depended on it or something. lol Raging just because they didn't get their precious shiny.

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Because I'm tired of wiping for 2 hours because of people like you

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Originally Posted by Odett

Because I'm tired of wiping for 2 hours because of people like you

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My point confirmed AGAIN. Oh the rage in peeps. Too funny.