Suggestion, make light party content tank/dps/healer/support

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Originally Posted by Rosy

1) "you're one of those guys" - is not "you guys" - "you're one of those people" would have been a more accurate way of including genders.
2) WHMs can heal main tanks...but if you have a WHM and SCH in group, SCH is main tank healer, WHM is better at raid healing.
3) Because it was a stupid comment that required a stupid answer
4) Did you read what I said "best....AOE DAMAGE...."
5) Nope you read it wrong again, and yes I play scholar, of course they have support skills.... on the fairy, that doesn't make them a support class.....they ARE healers.

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1) I can't believe you are arguing English semantics... take the subject and the object of the sentence (i.e. "you" and "guys") and you can add any participle or dependent clause between or around and receive the same meaning or action.
2) Again assumptions. If white mages can heal main tanks fine, then there is no point of saying that scholars are the main tank healer.
3) Answering a rhetorical and then replying to my saying that it was rhetorical says things by itself
4) Not sure why you doubt the ability of white mage. They have skills like divine seal (on the same cool down as aetherflow) and presence of mind too.
5) My suggestion (as noted in the opening post) was to reclassify due to them being better at the support role than other jobs (other than the other job i said should be support). Scholars have skills not on the fairy that are support. And a scholar is not a scholar w/o a fairy. A fairy is part of the scholar's skills. You treat fairy skills as scholar skills as no other class or job has access to these skills.

I agree with the OP.

SCH is too weak, we need buffs. We are unable to be main healers, especially in the second coil.

We need AT LEAST double the amount of Aetherflow charges per minute, and Adloquium should be raised to at least 600 potency. Also, Succor needs to be on par with Medica in terms of raw healing.

Only THEN we will be able to be considered true healers.

....

:)

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Originally Posted by AarinEphemera

Lustrate still wins. MP wise, no cast time (Don't say swiftcast+Cure II *wink wink*), and mobility.
Side note : Scholar is Healer class, with a portion of supportive skill.

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I didn't say anything about swift cast (scholar can swiftcast too). Scholar has support skills, just as bard has support skills. That's all I said. I didn't say anything bad about the classes.

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Originally Posted by RegnumMagik

This troll thread is too good, it's destroying my brain cells.

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Thanks for the reply? Well thanks for the bump, but i'm sure that's against the ToS so...

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Originally Posted by Pooky_Pasha

You must be a terrible SCH. The Physic/Embrace macro is quite common (As is putting your little pet on Obey. SMNs do that too btw). It gets used just as much as Cure II, if not more, at a fraction of the cost. It's all the rage among real SCHs.

Also, putting your fairy on Steady prevents it from throwing out extra embraces. But why do that? I want my fairy healing others. That's what it's there for! When it isn't, it heals the MT along with my Physic. It's win/win for me.

You're making yourself looking like an idiot for wanting the superior single target healer to be classified as support. I guess we're both idiots!



As a SMN, I whole-heartedly agree with the Aetherflow charge buff! :D

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I didn't say anything about not using obey (read the whole conversation as I said I used obey). You're the fool who replied to use obey, when that does nothing for your embrace macro. A good scholar would have know to use steady or guard if they want full control of their embraces. Again you reply with using obey, but we are once again (for the third time I say this is a quote) talking about the original conversation of using EMBRACE. Which is not affected by obey. But you're a terrible scholar so you don't know that.
P.S. Apparently there is a hard post per day limit, so I quote you back in time.

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Originally Posted by Susanoh

Every single ability listed here other than haste is a means of either HP restoration or damage reduction, which are exactly the type of abilities you would expect from a healing class.

I'm not against the idea of support classes, but I wouldn't give that title to any job currently in FFXIV.

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Damage reduction was given to all roles, not just healing. Selene only has embrace (as eos) and no abilities that a healer (as a job healing) would use.
And quoting back in time we go...

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Originally Posted by Shadowzanon

Well i must /doubt the OP. If he thinks sch suck in any way or form and should be reduced to support because of it, he is utterly clueless. This who concept of tank/healer/ dps/ support will just not work in duty finder. buuut i can see why he is making this suggestion, so if he is a bard he does not have to deal with long queue times. heh funny put both classes he is prob geared with to try to make a point, shaft the rest of the dps into longer queue times.

I am also questioning your main job bard. If you actually think bard is the bottom of the barrel in terms of dps, you need a reality check. well played bards, even if using songs can still outdps some classes in some of the turn 6-9 coils fights. Bards that do know their class well can potentially outdps /any/ class if they do not need to use their songs to regain tp or mana. By all means they are not in any weak state nor are the worst dps. The bard in my coils group will love to have a word with you as he will laugh in your face by these comments. Bard can be wickedly strong in the right hands yet at the same time be crippling weak in the wrong ones. In our coils run, no one holds a candle to our bard in turn 6, turn 7 our bard rivals the rest even when kiting the cyclops around. Turn 8 our bard is quit on par with our dragoon. Our group dps is in no way bad as we can easly bypass mechanics on turn 6 (only one honeyglaze) and turn 8 we skip the mine/dreadnaught tower.

Seriously if you think bards suck, look around and find the really good ones who can explain to you things you may not be doing right. I thought my dps was ok, found out new things by some fellow blm on my server that is not found in the dps fourms which pushed my dps as a blm where its supposed to be gaining me a 20 to 30 dps increase of what i used to pull.

Back on topic, no this is pointless. The only way a support can work to be added is only if they increase a party size. Also as it is, all regular dungeons are a pathetic joke. people overgear them as they are and even in lower lvl dungeons where your gear is lvl synced its hard to mess up and you are never in a situation where a limit break is the /only/ way to kill a boss. If anything dungeons should be tailored for 5 man and include an extra dps slot to quell the already long queue times dps are suffering.

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If your dragoon's dps is as low as the bard's then that's an issue with the dragoon player. Denying that all 4 other dps simply out damage bard will only void any chance of argument that you had. I still didn't find any post where I said that bard or scholar was bad or sucks (or any class for that matter). Do yourself a quick ctrl f and don't bother replying if you aren't going to at least read any of my posts.
P.s. Quote back in time

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Not sure if serious. I quoted your use of embrace. I did not say anything else about pet skills. Again, you have no control over your party members. If your party takes aoe damage your pet will embrace. There's nothing you can do about that. You make yourself look like an idiot when we are talking about macroing embrace and you reply "derp use obey".

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You must be a terrible SCH. The Physic/Embrace macro is quite common (As is putting your little pet on Obey. SMNs do that too btw). It gets used just as much as Cure II, if not more, at a fraction of the cost. It's all the rage among real SCHs.

Also, putting your fairy on Steady prevents it from throwing out extra embraces. But why do that? I want my fairy healing others. That's what it's there for! When it isn't, it heals the MT along with my Physic. It's win/win for me.

You're making yourself looking like an idiot for wanting the superior single target healer to be classified as support. I guess we're both idiots!

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

I agree with the OP.

SCH is too weak, we need buffs. We are unable to be main healers, especially in the second coil.

We need AT LEAST double the amount of Aetherflow charges per minute, and Adloquium should be raised to at least 600 potency. Also, Succor needs to be on par with Medica in terms of raw healing.

Only THEN we will be able to be considered true healers.

....

:)

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As a SMN, I whole-heartedly agree with the Aetherflow charge buff! :D

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

It just occurs to me that scholars have the most support abilities out of most classes. It has the fairy aoe haste, fairy aoe damage reduction, fairy aoe regen, fairy aoe heal buff, several shielding skills, several mitigation skills, etc... Along with a weaker heals than the pure healing class whm.

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Every single ability listed here other than haste is a means of either HP restoration or damage reduction, which are exactly the type of abilities you would expect from a healing class.

I'm not against the idea of support classes, but I wouldn't give that title to any job currently in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Thanks for the reply? Well thanks for the bump, but i'm sure that's against the ToS so...

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I'm simply congratulating you on this wonderful troll thread, there's no question about it baby.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

I agree with the OP.

SCH is too weak, we need buffs. We are unable to be main healers, especially in the second coil.

We need AT LEAST double the amount of Aetherflow charges per minute, and Adloquium should be raised to at least 600 potency. Also, Succor needs to be on par with Medica in terms of raw healing.

Only THEN we will be able to be considered true healers.

....

:)

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That won't help though. WHM can heal main tanks fine! They're the only healer!

Nerf WHM. Cure should have 50 potency and Cure 2 should have 51 potency. Benediction you say? Let's make that a 5% heal. Remove Regen too, that's a support skill! Give it to SCH!

Well i must /doubt the OP. If he thinks sch suck in any way or form and should be reduced to support because of it, he is utterly clueless. This who concept of tank/healer/ dps/ support will just not work in duty finder. buuut i can see why he is making this suggestion, so if he is a bard he does not have to deal with long queue times. heh funny put both classes he is prob geared with to try to make a point, shaft the rest of the dps into longer queue times.

I am also questioning your main job bard. If you actually think bard is the bottom of the barrel in terms of dps, you need a reality check. well played bards, even if using songs can still outdps some classes in some of the turn 6-9 coils fights. Bards that do know their class well can potentially outdps /any/ class if they do not need to use their songs to regain tp or mana. By all means they are not in any weak state nor are the worst dps. The bard in my coils group will love to have a word with you as he will laugh in your face by these comments. Bard can be wickedly strong in the right hands yet at the same time be crippling weak in the wrong ones. In our coils run, no one holds a candle to our bard in turn 6, turn 7 our bard rivals the rest even when kiting the cyclops around. Turn 8 our bard is quit on par with our dragoon. Our group dps is in no way bad as we can easly bypass mechanics on turn 6 (only one honeyglaze) and turn 8 we skip the mine/dreadnaught tower.

Seriously if you think bards suck, look around and find the really good ones who can explain to you things you may not be doing right. I thought my dps was ok, found out new things by some fellow blm on my server that is not found in the dps fourms which pushed my dps as a blm where its supposed to be gaining me a 20 to 30 dps increase of what i used to pull.

Back on topic, no this is pointless. The only way a support can work to be added is only if they increase a party size. Also as it is, all regular dungeons are a pathetic joke. people overgear them as they are and even in lower lvl dungeons where your gear is lvl synced its hard to mess up and you are never in a situation where a limit break is the /only/ way to kill a boss. If anything dungeons should be tailored for 5 man and include an extra dps slot to quell the already long queue times dps are suffering.

Scholar is a healer, Bard is the closest to a hybrid of DPS/Support but it won't really be fully there till an expansion and a few more abilities.
Changing the 4 man queue isn't necessary. Changing the 8 man might be prudent with an expansion and a few more support jobs in the game, but for 4 man stuff support can just queue as DPS.

(Assuming support will be like Bards, i.e. good DPS that can be sacrificed for utility instead.)

To give you an idea about SCH healing, OP.

Our turn 8 kill:

Me, SCH, healed: 58% (including Eos and Galvanize) [22% overhealing]
Our WHM healed: 40% [30% overhealing]

Does SCH still look like a support to you?

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Damage reduction was given to all roles, not just healing. Selene only has embrace (as eos) and no abilities that a healer (as a job healing) would use.
And quoting back in time we go...

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I'm not denying that there are some supportive abilities that scholar has. Just that giving a phenomenal healing class some support abilities does not make a healing class a support class. FFXI's white mage could do the same things that selene could do (haste and silence) and no one ever considered it a support class because its primary role was still healing, just as scholar's primary role in a group in FFXIV is still healing.

While I do understand the points from both sides, I gotta say, there's very little point in having both a WHM and a SCH in the 4 men content currently in the game unless SE change every single 4 men instance. Currently all this will do is changing scholar to summoner without the dps pet and fester.

And looking at the track record of 4-men instance so far, everyone would want SCH to dps anyway even if they fill in that support role, otherwise people will just prefer BRD over them due to higher dps, unless SE changes BRD and SCH to be similar somehow.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

I didn't say anything about not using obey (read the whole conversation as I said I used obey). You're the fool who replied to use obey, when that does nothing for your embrace macro. A good scholar would have know to use steady or guard if they want full control of their embraces. Again you reply with using obey, but we are once again (for the third time I say this is a quote) talking about the original conversation of using EMBRACE. Which is not affected by obey. But you're a terrible scholar so you don't know that.

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You never said anything about you using Obey before this, at least not in any replies to me, which is all I care about. You said something about guard once before (and in this reply):

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

...and unless your pet is on guard...

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You said something about "unreliable pet actions":

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

...(crits, unreliable pet actions)...

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, so I said Obey because that gives the user some control over what Eos/Selene does (even Embrace).

Steady gives you absolute control, which I basically said in what you quoted (ie-you don't want your fairy throwing out extra Embraces). Why someone would want to micro-manage to that extent, I don't know. It isn't really needed.
Guard gives you a little less control, but if the masters hit points go <90%, your pet will automatically cast Embrace on you.
Obey gives you even less control. If any party member's hit points go <90%, your pet will automatically cast Embrace on them if they are in range, prioritizing the master.
And guess what!!! A Physic/Embrace macro in any of those pet stances still works! If your pet isn't doing anything else, it forces your pet to cast Embrace on that target! Go Eos/Selene! And this is just as effective (actually more effective) as Cure II. Which was my original point waaaaay back when. And yes, you can control with varying degress.

Also, about the bolded part...I'm going to give props to myself because I must be a pretty good SCH.

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Originally Posted by Pooky_Pasha

The only ability not on Obey is Embrace.

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which I said waaaay back on page 4 of this silly thread.
And you're still the fool who seriously suggested classifying the superior single target healer as support.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

1. Read the OP.
2. Read the OP.
2. I don't see how worst of the 5 dps is one of the best.

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How is BRD the worst? If you go pure numbers with parsers you only get part of it. Does it show how much damage is increased by using Foe Req? No. Does it show how much extra healing in mana intensive fights Ballad does? Things that a BRD contributes but as it doesnt show on parsers, they get ignored.

L2 not rely on parsers, they lie.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

SCH is too weak, we need buffs. We are unable to be main healers, especially in the second coil.

We need AT LEAST double the amount of Aetherflow charges per minute, and Adloquium should be raised to at least 600 potency. Also, Succor needs to be on par with Medica in terms of raw healing.

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SCHs are true healers. Adlo and succor are lower potency because of the shield. To raise them to the same potency as cure 2 and Medica would make them OP. The shield is part of the heal.

This is a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Have SE implement something like this once more jobs are introduced. Right now, all this will do is make queue times much longer.

Just make the 4 man Dungeons 5 Man and up the difficulty a little Tank/Dps/Dps/Heal/Support.
Make 8 man Tank x2/heal x2/dps x2/support x2

Wouldn't WAR fit the support status too ? They can debuff the mob so it can do less dmg or some other job doing more damage ?
So PLD would be the only tank :)

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

SCHs are true healers. Adlo and succor are lower potency because of the shield. To raise them to the same potency as cure 2 and Medica would make them OP. The shield is part of the heal.

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http://herapereira.files.wordpress.c...sm-smiley1.jpg

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Originally Posted by AarinEphemera

Scholar in Support role...lol. SCH healing isn't that BAD.

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Support doesn't mean bad.

Gotta love how all the Scholar's are like "Nuuuuuuuuuuuuu".

Honestly what we need is Hybrid AND Support roles.

Scholar's and Warrior's can go in Hybrid.

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Originally Posted by Ryihito

Support doesn't mean bad.

Gotta love how all the Scholar's are like "Nuuuuuuuuuuuuu".

Honestly what we need is Hybrid AND Support roles.

Scholar's and Warrior's can go in Hybrid.

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The efficiency of SCH as healer is simply not allowing it to be considered a hybrid. A hybrid is supposed to do a lot of things, but do them worse than specialized classes.

SCH heals on par / better than WHM in lots of circumstances. How can you call it a hybrid, without changing the whole class in order to nerf its healing and buff its damage? That's not gonna happen as it will piss off all the SCH players that chose this job cause they wanted to be healers.

Also, why the hell would more healing be needed in a party when you can basically run 4-man dungeons almost without healing needed?

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

The efficiency of SCH as healer is simply not allowing it to be considered a hybrid. A hybrid is supposed to do a lot of things, but do them worse than specialized classes.

SCH heals on par / better than WHM in lots of circumstances. How can you call it a hybrid, without changing the whole class in order to nerf its healing and buff its damage? That's not gonna happen as it will piss off all the SCH players that chose this job cause they wanted to be healers.

Also, why the hell would more healing be needed in a party when you can basically run 4-man dungeons almost without healing needed?

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Can explain and ask that to someone else, pal. I really don't care, lol.

I just want more options, make both sides happy. No need to be scared of any nerfs to your precious SCH, SE doesn't want to do nerfs, so stop worrying.

Umm, Scholars are NOT support. I play both WHM and SCH and wouldn't say that we are support. It feels a bit biased against the SCH role. But it would be interesting to see them create support based classes. It would be a nice switch.

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Originally Posted by Ryihito

Can explain and ask that to someone else, pal. I really don't care, lol.

I just want more options, make both sides happy. No need to be scared of any nerfs to your precious SCH, SE doesn't want to do nerfs, so stop worrying.

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Why so on the defensive?

I am not scared of anything, lol. But what you want is not a simple matter of "hey SE, please give me more options, I am bored".

What you want requires a complete rework of pretty much every piece of content in the game. Not gonna happen anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Ryihito

SE doesn't want to do nerfs, so stop worrying.

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*Looks at bard's first nerf, laughs*
*Looks at bard's itemization in 2.2, laughs even harder*

Sorry, sorry, couldn't resist - on subject, but I agree - SCH is ALREADY a 'hybrid' of sorts. It's one of the few characters that can literally, at a high enough gear level - summon a pet, and then switch to Cleric's and -never- stop DPS'ing, only spacing healing with Lustrats. It is a powerful class, and trying to assign it to 'support' would just be laughable at best as that means the WHM spot is basically wasted because now you have two healers going into DPS stance 24/7 (Something I've done before back in SR of Wander's Palace.)

This thread will go nowhere with Scholars in the Support section.
Besides that, I disagree with the idea. Support isn't necessary. Tank, Healer, DPS is all we need.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Why so on the defensive?

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Yeah, you keep on assuming that.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

*Looks at bard's first nerf, laughs*
*Looks at bard's itemization in 2.2, laughs even harder*

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To be fair that was needed, though it was more of a universal nerf really since it was mostly Cross skills that got hit.

I miss Rain of Death though.

And you pretty much said why I suggested SCH to be an hybrid. I rejoice whenever I get them or a Summoner in the party.

Am I the only one seeing how Arcanist and Summoner are clear support jobs, considering they have CURE and BATTLE RAISE on top of their damage?

But I guess someone was quick to label only "AOE buffs" as support definition, and everything else is not support.

Oh snap monk has Mantra its boost hp recovery Via curing magic by 20% for self and nearby party members better throw them in that support role. Lol

Lol, what kind of thread is this?

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Originally Posted by KoujiMoreno

Lol, what kind of thread is this?

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Welcome to the official forums. It's that kind of thread.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

2. I don't see how worst of the 5 dps is one of the best.

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Yet you play bard yourself? You must have problems with your rotation or something. Cause I know my bard can put out more dps than melee and mages on most cases.

Either way, what you are suggesting will never happen. SCH is a HEALING job. It is NOT SUPPORT. I've seen SCHs SOLO heal end game primals. Which I would say put them pretty much on par with a whm on healing. What you are suggesting with put everything out of balance verses the way it is now(Higher que times for anyone who plays a dps mainly). So again, thanks for the suggestion, but no.

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Originally Posted by Kaela

Yet you play bard yourself? You must have problems with your rotation or something. Cause I know my bard can put out more dps than melee and mages on most cases.

Either way, what you are suggesting will never happen. SCH is a HEALING job. It is NOT SUPPORT. I've seen SCHs SOLO heal end game primals. Which I would say put them pretty much on par with a whm on healing. What you are suggesting with put everything out of balance verses the way it is now(Higher que times for anyone who plays a dps mainly). So again, thanks for the suggestion, but no.

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I played all DPS classes and it's simply not possible for bard to pass any of the other classes. Before you say anything stupid in response, check out the battle forums for a quick moment and see how good players play dragoon, monk, black mage and summoner. Also lol didn't know 1 move was a rotation. Refreshing dots and buffs when they drop off is common sense. They aren't any "rotation".

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Originally Posted by Ryihito

Support doesn't mean bad.

Gotta love how all the Scholar's are like "Nuuuuuuuuuuuuu".

Honestly what we need is Hybrid AND Support roles.

Scholar's and Warrior's can go in Hybrid.

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The party finder need a tank and a healer.
We have a WAR, a SCH and a bunch of DPS. Meaning a hybrid and a support, no tank nor healer. Damn ...
If we tinker around the duty finder so that we can use a support instead of a healer, it wouldn't work much either.

Scholars are healers. Plain and simple. I don't think putting them in the support category would help diversify the duty finder and how it makes parties.

Can't believe I read all 8 pages of this.

The TLDR for anyone who doesn't want to waste their time doing so:

People who think SCH isn't as good as WHM and should be support: Uberhaxed
People who think SCH is just as good if not better than WHM in single target healing: Everyone else

Also very telling when there's 8+ pages of people responding and the OP's suggestion has 0 likes.

Yeah it's a huge derail from the point of conversation that the whole idea is terrible in the first place, especially when they're about to add a new job that'd fit in that category. Hey guys let's take this new concept that a lot of people are gonna want to play, then put them all in one single-file line for being able to participate in dungeons! ...average wait time? What's that about?

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Do you play scholar?
Eos has (and only has) the healing buff, damage reduction, and regen. Selene has silence, spell speed boost, skill speed boost.

Edit:
First sentence should read: "Bro, do you even Scholar?"

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Eh, I play all the jobs and haven't played SCH a lot lately, so misremembered the different ability placement on the two fairies when I quickly wrote a post. Big deal. My point still stands: their support abilities are split between the two fairies, switching them mid-combat being not the best idea limiting their specific support uses. Eos allows for some serious power-healing. In fact, I've had a lot of in-game discussions where I'd argue that SCH is technically the overall more powerful healer than WHM.

The question is: bro, do YOU even Scholar? Because if anybody thinks SCH is an inferior healer to WHM, they've obviously never played one, or hell, even had one in the group. Oddly you seem to have SCH50 in your forum avatar right now, so I'm baffled as to why you'd argue this.


That aside, you completely ignored the point relevant to your own topic that I and now several others have raised, which is that there need to be way more support role jobs to justify a split on the DF, otherwise it bottlenecks the DF unnecessarily. Why is it a good idea to have one role with only one job in it? For instance, BRD being the only support role job in some people's theorycrafting, or WHM being the only healer role job in your example?

This would create a situation like with the tank shortage, only with different roles. The only good point it would have is that it would prevent the DPS slots being filled only with BRD and thus taking any dps LB capabilities away from a party.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

I played all DPS classes and it's simply not possible for bard to pass any of the other classes. Before you say anything stupid in response, check out the battle forums for a quick moment and see how good players play dragoon, monk, black mage and summoner. Also lol didn't know 1 move was a rotation. Refreshing dots and buffs when they drop off is common sense. They aren't any "rotation".

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Bard is cut and dry. I will admit. Keep up straight shot buff on yourself. Apply dots, use bloodletter and misery's end when up. When nothing else use Heavy Shot. But you are still ignoring the fact that they have 100% up time on an enemy in most fights. Ontop of Aoe for larger pulls. They can give Foe's Requiem for extra damage for others. So they supply support and a large amount of dps on their own.

If you ignore this and everything else everyone says. Then it is your problem not ours.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Can't believe I read all 8 pages of this.

The TLDR for anyone who doesn't want to waste their time doing so:

People who think SCH isn't as good as WHM and should be support: Uberhaxed
People who think SCH is just as good if not better than WHM in single target healing: Everyone else

Also very telling when there's 8+ pages of people responding and the OP's suggestion has 0 likes.

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Still waiting to find the post where you quote me saying scholar isn't a good as white mage. But reading comprehension is a lost art.