Solutions to stop speedrunning

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Originally Posted by sheepysheepy

how does adding myth drops to trashmobs make people kill them slower? surely all that does is make mythflox give 70~ myth instead of 50

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Part of it has to do with just straight up skipping mobs. The keys do force certain mobs to be fought, but otherwise there's a few spots where you reach the boss and you can 'lock out' mobs, simply by having your tank stand just across the line while the boss fight is started by your allies. Once "[area name] is now sealed" pops up, the mobs are sealed off, the boss is fought as normal, and then you move on. They're not even fought.

That's what speedrunning is. Kill as little as possible, and when you have to, group up as many as you can possibly survive and then AoE splatter them, then move onto the next group.

The speed runs where you rely on AoEing large groups of mobs, can be discouraged by ilevel sync. If they ilevel sync all with high ilevel in ilevel 55 dungeons to ilevel 58, you will not be able to survive the big pulls.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

Part of it has to do with just straight up skipping mobs. The keys do force certain mobs to be fought, but otherwise there's a few spots where you reach the boss and you can 'lock out' mobs, simply by having your tank stand just across the line while the boss fight is started by your allies. Once "[area name] is now sealed" pops up, the mobs are sealed off, the boss is fought as normal, and then you move on. They're not even fought.

That's what speedrunning is. Kill as little as possible, and when you have to, group up as many as you can possibly survive and then AoE splatter them, then move onto the next group.

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like i said, you'd just end up with 70~ myth instead of 50 and no one would change how they play, so i still don't understand how the suggestion slows the dungeon down

Why does speedrunning matter?

If the group agrees to it, let them do it. I like to do daily roulette sometimes, and low level really gets me. Once, there was a group of us level 50's and a 48. We didn't know why we got into COPPERBELL. Anyways, we all agreed on speedrunning and it was fine. Doesn't affect anybody else, and we all agreed on it. What's the deal

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Originally Posted by Angry_Goat

Why does speedrunning matter?

If the group agrees to it, let them do it. I like to do daily roulette sometimes, and low level really gets me. Once, there was a group of us level 50's and a 48. We didn't know why we got into COPPERBELL. Anyways, we all agreed on speedrunning and it was fine. Doesn't affect anybody else, and we all agreed on it. What's the deal

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Because sometimes, people don't agree, and they get bullied into complying, or leaving. Or they simply get expelled from the dungeon.

In all three cases, their experience has been ruined.

Not sure why we have to keep repeating, it's been explained multiple times in this thread, and if you're not seeing it in your runs.. Then you're kinda blind, or just part of the problem.

As a tank you control the pace of the dungeon, so just let ppl complain all they want. It can get tedious on a healer though, specially when a tank decides they understand "speedrunning" yet manage to reach their last pull at half hp or less. Most grps do tend to tone it down after one wipe though :P
As someone pointed out the ilvl "doing" and the intended ilvl are way different though so I don't see them buffing anything. As for a-holes? well there are a-holes in every facet of life lol. Just ignore them and do your thing.
(pre-nerf pharos sirius is a good example of what happens when you try to make the "lowest" content too challenging for the intended ilvl: ppl just completely ignore/drop it XD I would like to see a 30min+ design philosophy implemented for future content though, even if they ahve to make the dungeons "spread out more" and use similar systems to CT pulls. that adequately reward your time of course :P)

edit: The ilvl sync idea mentioned above would be pretty cool to be honest, but there is a point were ppl start to feel "restrained" too much if their current gear never gets taken advantage of. Regardless, if they ever did decide to do this I would agree to it. (I feel it would help with "training" newcomers to content too)

I personally prefer speed run. It's simple to remove it....Just don't do it.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Or ask the tank to do smaller pulls?

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it really depends on what tank you get. if they say okay then sure, but unfortunately not all tanks are nice.

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

no there are not. other than hacking. you gotta kill adds to unlock doors, simple as that. only a few points where you can take big pulls and it actually matters.

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I think we are talking about the same thing here. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, a speed run is a tacit agreement that you group together as many mobs as necessary to kill and kill them, ignore as many mobs as possible, getting everything done in as short a time as possible. Even in Brayfox HM you have to kill certain mobs to open doors, and open those doors to move forward. Isn't that the same concept in Mannor HM?

I enjoy the idea of an extra bonus if you happen to clear all the monsters in the area. You won't stop sac pulls, even if you make mini objectives between bosses it will still have them pull up to that point. Then you would have to see if the time to go out of your way to pull the extra mobs is better than just pushing through.

Part of me wants to say puzzles, but that could easily take a casual dungeon run and put it into something that's too long for it's own good.

We can't leave it to the player base no more to decide if the runs can be speed or casual runs because there's always someone who will push for the speed runs. it takes a tank who wants to over pull and a healer who isn't up to par, or a DPS who moves ahead and pulls everything or even a healer who sits back and yells for a quicker run. This only hurts the party who aren't geared to speed run or don't want to, but it's not as simple as telling the party you don't want to.

Someone suggested making mobs harder, this would slow down the speed runners but make it harder for the new people and they're out there now in PS4 world / PC land. We don't want to do that.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

Someone suggested making mobs harder, this would slow down the speed runners but make it harder for the new people and they're out there now in PS4 world / PC land. We don't want to do that.

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I was thinking about this on the way home from work, and my ideal solution personally would be to have iLvl sync on upper-end content. Speedrunning tactics are easy because you have so much goddamn HP/curative power/damage that you can actually do it, because you're bringing in gear that's 30+ levels higher than what was intended to be worn to do the dungeon.

You can't speedrun a place like Qarn or Aurum Vale. Well, you can try - but your success will be limited. It's because there's a maximum to the power you can bring in with you, which level 50 content simply doesn't have.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

You can't speedrun a place like Qarn or Aurum Vale.

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I'd like to point out that this is untrue. I've done both.

I'm guessing OP hasn't started working on an Animus weapon.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

1: queue as a healer, (optional)
2: wait for tank to do large pull.
3: when he dies, yell at him for trying to force you into a speedrun.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Just like what saber said let the tank pull and die if they pull the whole speed run bs in DF.

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Originally Posted by AlrikRouge

Also, if I tank and others take off before me, saying "go" or "SR" without even asking or even saying hi, I usually "/sit" and wait for them to die or come back.

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Passive-aggressive nonsense like this doesn't clear the dungeon, doesn't stop speedrunning, and doesn't improve your standing in the eyes of anyone. It is as selfish as you can get without, well, implicitly speedrunning. But at least speedrunning produces tangible rewards.

Consider asking the tank, how will you pull today? or make a straight request.
If you are the tank, state how you intend to pull from the outset. You control the flow of the dungeon, after all.

Don't be on either side of the problem.

DF is about playing with total stranger:
You know there will be unpleasant people.
You know there will be people forcing you to SR.
You know there will be drunk people.
You know how people are!

Oh also, there are bots in there too now!

If you think you can control how people will behave in DF(or anywhere), think again.
Duty Finder is about adapting to the group and play the best you can to make the team win. Not forcing your god damn opinions by saboting the team.

Party Finder is solving all of your problems! Use that instead and discriminate the people you dont like. Done!

gosh!!! /flipsatable

That being said, I understand not everyone has a strong personality, not everyone is able to adapt, not everyone is strong enough to defend their ideas and not everyone is open to criticism.
But please, please, please, stop trying to soft cushioning stuff up. Dirty stuff are fun too!



EDIT: By DF I mean Duty Finder AND Roulette as they both force you to play with strangers. Don't do either if you can't play with strangers.

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Originally Posted by AlrikRouge

I think we are talking about the same thing here. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, a speed run is a tacit agreement that you group together as many mobs as necessary to kill and kill them, ignore as many mobs as possible, getting everything done in as short a time as possible. Even in Brayfox HM you have to kill certain mobs to open doors, and open those doors to move forward. Isn't that the same concept in Mannor HM?

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yes but the difference between speed and normal in Manor are tiny. Bayflox you can do with 4 pulls total and it's stupid.

If you really want people to be more willing to take their time then the only way to do that would be to make things less of a grind. Seriously think about it. Why do people speed run? Because it's not fun grinding for myth or sol for most people. They just want to get it out of the way for the week. And doing the same few dungeons over and over, week after week, gets old fast. Even if the dungeons are well designed and actually pretty nice this time. Haiti hard or whatever it's called was cool doing it for the first time. Doing it for the 20th time? 50th time? Etc. Not so much.

They should give a lot more myth per dungeon. A lot more. Make capping your tomes not a chore by making it something you can easily do at your leisure. Then people would be a lot more willing to take it a bit slower in dungeons.

Try any method to make it harder to speed run, however, and people will just all find the next fastest way. It will ALWAYS solve nothing to try and prevent speed runs if the root problem of tome grinding being a huge chore still exists.

Now, I know there are people who are going to be like "Hurr durr MMO HAZ 2 haf teh grindz" or whatever. Fine. Keep the grind, deal with the speed runs. Can't have it both ways. You can't. People will always want to get their chores done as fast and efficiently as possible. That's why we invented things like washing machines instead of sticking with cleaning our clothes by hand using a washboard.

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Originally Posted by Miburo

Try any method to make it harder to speed run, however, and people will just all find the next fastest way. It will ALWAYS solve nothing to try and prevent speed runs if the root problem of tome grinding being a huge chore still exists.

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This, SE has tried this and never worked, players are always finding another way to speed run. It doesn't matter if you make mobs tougher, that will just make it less new player friendly. You can stack mob groups up, very geared players will AOE them down fast. There's nothing you can do then just accept it.

@Almalexia
Virtually any quote taken out of context can misconstrued.
I DF all the time. It is VERY VERY VERY rare that I have a problem with the team that I enter in with on the dungeons I land into.
Since you singled out my one comment out of context, I just want to clarify that if I enter a dungeon as a tank and no one communicates, or the only thing said is "go", then Im inclined to just pull how I wish to, and if DPS or healer decides to pull more (again, only if no one has started some dialog) I tend to let them take on what they pull for a little bit while I hold the other mobs, and then ask if again if they want a faster run.

I have never rage quit, never belittled and in fact, more often than not, will take 20-45 minutes to help people through a dungeon discussing details and such but only if they want them. If Im in a sour mood, I wont even go into DF.

I think it really boils down to what you want to do and how you want to play. In DF I always let them know how I pull and if they are good with that. If they can't 8/10 they speak up, or we wipe lol.

Generally I go into DF with the mindset that it is not a speed run. It is a normal run. If the others bring up SR then I am in to win. SR's are saved for PF groups where you can get optimal setups for the duty.

If you don't want to SR, don't set your PF up that way, clearly expressing, NORMAL RUNS.

SE won't change it, as stated above, we will work around it.

On a side note, I prefer to SR when possible. During the week after work I have only a few hours of play. I need to hit tome caps etc, so SR's help out with that.

Just my 2g

Syn

The funniest part of the speed run thing is in v1 we speed ran everything cause it changed what drops you got at the end of the dungeon and was a bane to most players. Yoshi made the promise of removing the speed run mechanic. And even tho he did, to a point. They should tinker with the system just a tad so you aren't doing your dailies and someone afks on purpose after the second boss dies to wait for a kick or give some sort of incentive to run the dungeon in its entirety.

Esp since gear is almost irrelevant from dungeons and already outclassed for the most part, esp in the lvl 50s.

I start brayflox with a SR superpull. If no one dies or cries about it, I keep the SR up. If the first pull goes terribad, I pull normal pulls and feel sad for the extra 15 min I gotta be in there.

Here is something I think would be neat. In another MMO I was playing for a while they had different ways to do an instance. The normal way, like the duties are set up now, then challenge mode. Every instance started with the challenge activated, with certain conditions to be met. If you missed a condition or didn't do something in a certain amount of time, challenge mode disappeared and the instance was then "normal". Completing challenges granted extra items, special tokens, and extra chest at the end, etc.

This could possibly help, some for SR some for making sure people stay in for a chance at that "special item" at the end.

Then again, maybe not.

Syn

I'm not a fan of speedruns myself, but unless I'm playing healer (which is rarely) I don't really have a problem with it. When I am heals, it's only a problem if the tank grabs more than I can heal and doesn't listen when I ask him to slow down a little so I can keep up. Most tanks I've landed that do the speedrun tactics are crazy good at holding emnity and managing their CDs though, so I don't have much room to complain.

More than the problem being speedrunning itself, it's the abrasive and impatient players that are the problem. The kind of tanks that don't listen to their group, think their role entitles them to be the king of the party and has the "my way or the highway" mentality...

They could set it up so certain mobs provide stacking buffs to all the other mobs. Something that wouldn't matter much if you pull the enemies one group at a time, but would easily overwhelm the party if they pulled everything.
That said, I speed run bray every day. As a healer, it's the only way to stay awake. I wouldn't welcome an end to speed runs.

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Originally Posted by Pizzaparty7

I start brayflox with a SR superpull. If no one dies or cries about it, I keep the SR up. If the first pull goes terribad, I pull normal pulls and feel sad for the extra 15 min I gotta be in there.

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That extra 15 min would be much less if you just took 15 seconds to talk to your group.

Why on earth people would ask for an Ilevel cap. Maybe it's just me, but I like new items cos they make me kill shit faster. I don't see any valid reason to be gimped at 50.

If they make any change to the current mechanics (myth and soldiery at bosses), the speedrunning community will just gravitate towards the next best method, whatever that will be.

Going back to the OP, I don't really see how this could affect you. Maybe if you are trying to do your soldiery on Monday when many other people only want myth speedruns, I can see this being a problem. But even then (and from my own experience), make a PF for soldiery runs. Even on Monday evenings I get a party within a few minutes. What other players are doing in regards to myth speed runs doesn't really affect you as much as you are thinking.

Even if they put in some sort of "challenge mode" like another poster mentioned, it all comes down to myth per minute. People will find the fastest way and simply grind that, no matter what.

If they go the ilevelsync route I would hope they use these caps:

Amdapor Keep/Wanderer's Palace: ilevel 55
Haukke Manor HM/Copperbell Mines HM/Pharos Sirius: ilevel 60
Brayflox Longstop HM/Hatali HM/Lost City of Amdapor: ilevel 70
Labyrinth of the Ancients: ilevel 80

If done this way the best gear for the dungeon would be either the stuff that drops in that dungeon and a HM Primal weapon or HQ Crafted Gear of that ilevel instead of the absolute best gear available that allows for surviving all of those big pulls and ignoring boss mechanics.

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Originally Posted by blacksheepwall

Why on earth people would ask for an Ilevel cap. Maybe it's just me, but I like new items cos they make me kill shit faster. I don't see any valid reason to be gimped at 50.

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What's wrong with the EXPERT roulette having an ilvl cap? This entire thread has a common theme of: "I'm entitled to not have to work for what I want." <- wat (aka - what's wrong with the world today)

I don't understand what's wrong with speed run as every content has time limit, players should have done it as soon as possible.
If you need a solution to stop speed run, maybe just change the time limit from count down to count toward, and players cannot complete it before n minutes? ^^;

Seriously, adding extra reward for fast completion would be a nice solution as no one will complain then.

"One or more Party Members are new to this Dungeon"...

That is your clue to not do a Speed-Run. Try to be courteous to 1st-timers.

I can speak from personal experience that it is not fun to be rushed through content when it's new.

Speed Runs are fine if the entire party agrees on it, but don't force it on people, please.
Try to keep in mind that Duty Roulette was implemented to help lower level/new players.

As for normal Duty Finder parties, if you don't see the "one or more members are new" message, it's still common courtesy to tell the PT that it is going to be a speed run and explain how it works to anyone that doesn't know what to do.

A little courtesy and patience goes a long ways towards creating a better gaming community.

"One or more Party Members are new to this Duty" only works for low-level dungeons.

On high levels (what we are talking about here) it does not show and you can slip through till the end. Then you get your mapping achievment :)

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

"One or more Party Members are new to this Duty" only works for low-level dungeons.

On high levels (what we are talking about here) it does not show and you can slip through till the end. Then you get your mapping achievment :)

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They need to keep that message for the level 50 ones. Give more gil/myth/soldiery on completion that one time as their bonus.

I do like a good speed run when everything clicks. But getting an ideal group for a speed run in the Duty Finder, or Roulette is really a crap-shoot and you really shouldn't count on it, rather, the expectation from these shouldn't be a fast run, but rather a smooth, fun run.

Square Enix wouldn't have to tweak anything if more people simply took a moment to talk among themselves right at the start. The tank really should ask the group if they would be comfortable doing a speed run, and if they say no, then they should abide by the wishes of the group.

Good tanks can tell right-off the kind of tempo they should set to get their group through the dungeon. Personally, I do like running at as quick a tempo as I can manage, which can be slow at time. As long as everyone in the group is trying their hardest, and we all have fun, than really that's all I can ask for.

It's simple, if a player cannot detemine his party wants speed run or not, probably he should not initial a speed run.
However "Speed run" is not concrete, someone says 12min is a SR for a place and someone says you are doing wrong if it takes more than 8min.
Simply just determine you party, try to make everyone enjoyable. ^^

10 brayflox df yesterday, 10 speedruns without any communication apart from i occasionally use /nod to let people know i'm ready
no deaths, all complete in 10-14 minutes, soldiery finished in one afternoon

am i the only one that loves that? i hated joining PF groups to do wanderers palace runs and then someone always had to leave after 2 runs, now i just wait 20 seconds in DF and go again without having to check if anyones gone to the bathroom etc.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

I'm not saying something harsh but when you can grab all the mobs from the start to the first boss with little effort.... You have an issue. Even a 15% buff would solve this.

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The issue is that the instances are tuned for iLvl50-60 while everyone and their mother runs around in iLvl 90-100. That is not a dungeon error but a design error that forces us to run these easy dungeons over and over. At the ilvl most players are the proper farm content would be t1-5 coil. I would propose making those more rewarding than running HM Brayflox.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

The issue is that the instances are tuned for iLvl50-60 while everyone and their mother runs around in iLvl 90-100. That is not a dungeon error but a design error that forces us to run these easy dungeons over and over. At the ilvl most players are the proper farm content would be t1-5 coil. I would propose making those more rewarding than running HM Brayflox.

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Personally, this is why I want to see an iLvl Sync enabled. The problem of people being overgeared for content isn't going to go away - it's only going to aggravate, actually. And while I can see this being okay to an extent, especially as Square has stated they want earlier content to become 'easier', it's making plenty of locations easier than things you did back before level 50.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

Personally, this is why I want to see an iLvl Sync enabled. The problem of people being overgeared for content isn't going to go away - it's only going to aggravate, actually. And while I can see this being okay to an extent, especially as Square has stated they want earlier content to become 'easier', it's making plenty of locations easier than things you did back before level 50.

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This so much