Yoshi-P: Atma drop % = "it's just luck"

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

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While I tend to think a system that let's some people complete it well under the average acquisition time based solely on luck is bad...my argument has only been focused on those that are on the opposite side of the bell curve. Those that have been grinding for days (in played time) and still don't have the item. What I and others have suggested is a cutoff...not a hard requirement. More of a 'if you don't get the item in X attempts, you get the item'. Based on where X is set, there would still be plenty of room for RNG effects...allowing plenty to finish before X, but it would create a cutoff for the max anyone would have to work on a single Atma. This has 2 beneficial effects:

1. You eliminate the extreme cases of the most unfortunate. Ultimately, everyone would be done at or within a set amount of dedicated time, even if there was still a large spread in that time.

2. This system would be more casual friendly. When you've got very restricted play time, spending any of that on a task that could yield now progress towards a goal makes that task feel less worth it. With a cutoff, people can work towards the Atma with the knowledge that even if RNG doesn't favor them, they're still making progress towards an Atma, because every fate complete is one more towards the cutoff. With a pure RNG system, there is now sense of progress until success if obtained, because drop rate doesn't change with attempts.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

15-20 seems heinously simple... practically a hand-out.

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The Zenith currently feels like one to me. Besides, it still wouldn't stop the huge grind to get it to animus status. It's been 24 days and I just finished book 7. And I'm taking it semi-casually to get the books (daily duty roulettes for myths), hardcore to finish them (I finish them the day I get them). If you had casual on both, it'd take them around 2 months. And considering it takes around 2-3 months for a content patch to come, and that they'd probably do this when the Novus comes out, it won't cause as much problems as you think.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Seeing that zenith players can easily (by design) clear t7, "screwed over" is a gross overstatement, but I digress.

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While you're right...the issue usually arises with the community itself. I haven't played an MMO in the last decade where I haven't seen a growing portion of the community start to require an unnecessarily high level of gearing relative to the content the majority are working on.

Given that the relic weapon is going to continue to grow relative to the available content (some even saying ilvl 115), I won't be surprised when a growing number of groups start having a Novus relic requirement for turns 6 and 7...but I digress

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

While you're right...the issue usually arises with the community itself. I haven't played an MMO in the last decade where I haven't seen a growing portion of the community start to require an unnecessarily high level of gearing relative to the content the majority are working on.

Given that the relic weapon is going to continue to grow relative to the available content (some even saying ilvl 115), I won't be surprised when a growing number of groups start having a Novus relic requirement for turns 6 and 7...but I digress

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All evidence points toward future top tier weapons being tied in first. End raid and end relic.

Difficulty to earn must remain proportionally the same, one for skill, one for time.

So far, I feel they are working toward that goal quite well. Even if small tweaks may be needed, a full redesign seems totally unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

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The reason why people who like rng find the idea of any goal oriented grind or a failsafe so abhorrent is simple. Knowing the outcome and how long it takes to get there is mind numbingly boring. The heart will not race, the ears will not perk up of the Atma ding after every fate. It's just 1 down, 99 more to go.

But the bigger question is why must there be a failsafe? What's wrong with failing? Are gamers so spoilt nowadays that they must get everything in a relatively short span of time? Now before you run off calling me am elitist, ask yourself this. Is is a failure of the players or the failure of the system? Coming from the same server ooshima I can vouch for everything he said. In addition in my fc, those that have persevered in farming Atma have all got theirs a long ago while those that have not spend more time complaining than farming and those are just a few.

If anything the cutoff system is a lazy system that is worse than either pure rng or pure X number of fates. It seems like you want to hope to get lucky while not being susceptible to bad luck. Each system has its flaws and strength and it seems you want to have the cake and eat it at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

All evidence points toward future top tier weapons being tied in first. End raid and end relic.

Difficulty to earn must remain proportionally the same, one for skill, one for time.

So far, I feel they are working toward that goal quite well. Even if small tweaks may be needed, a full redesign seems totally unreasonable.

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I'm not so sure the top end weapons will be the same in strength, and I'm using the next upgrade of the Relic, the Novus, as the example. If enough people get the Atma/Animus before 2.28, they'll add Novus there, before a new Coil is added, making it surpass the T9 weapons. Plus I've heard whispers that the Novus may give 5 stats instead of just 4, which would make it far more useful up until probably the 3rd Coil's end.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'm not so sure the top end weapons will be the same in strength, and I'm using the next upgrade of the Relic, the Novus, as the example. If enough people get the Atma/Animus before 2.8, they'll add Novus there, before a new Coil is added, making it surpass the T9 weapons. Plus I've heard whispers that the Novus may give 5 stats instead of just 4, which would make it far more useful up until probably the 3rd Coil's end.

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theres magazine posts in jp showing progression of relics from i100 animus to i115... novus. and it wasnt 2.8, it was 2.28, mid may.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

theres magazine posts in jp showing progression of relics from i100 animus to i115... novus. and it wasnt 2.8, it was 2.28, mid may.

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Sorry, I typo'd hard there.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

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Your argument is having an RNG system with an extreme case failsafe completely eliminates RNG....ummm...okay. If the failsafe was set to 100, as an example, that's still 99 attempts for 'thrill of RNG'...per ATMA. That's still pretty RNG friendly if you ask me.

And I've never argued failure is bad. For instance, failure to complete a raid boss isn't bad. Failing a fight is an indication that your raid team needs to be stronger...a challenge to improve mechanics and group coordination. That is a good kind of failure in video games, because it forces the player to get better to achieve success. Failing the Atma grind doesn't do that. When you fail to get an Atma, you just go to the next fate and hope RNG favors you there.

And yes, failing this can have negative impacts on the players. Some people like working on long term quests like the relic. Others like the lore aspect, such as the small lore tidbits Gerolt gave players about their jobs in the first part of the relic quest. Others may be having equally bad luck with the other weapon drops and are starting to fall behind on the content their gear realistically allows them to do. When a system stops people from participating in the content they enjoy...solely based on an arbitrary decider like being unlucky with RNG...yes that is a failing of a system.

And I still don't think putting in a failsafe to limit the pain for the worse off outliers would have zero impact on your enjoyment.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

Your argument is having an RNG system with an extreme case failsafe completely eliminates RNG....ummm...okay. If the failsafe was set to 100, as an example, that's still 99 attempts for 'thrill of RNG'...per ATMA. That's still pretty RNG friendly if you ask me.

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How about a compromise. 300 fates, with a current 'chance' each attempt.

That seems more fair than merely 100. Even if it is on a silver platter at 300, at least it was reasonable level of effort.

It's not unfair. Everyone has the same probability of success.

However, what it is is completely meaningless. Making it entirely RNG dependent takes away any sense of accomplishment because you're not winning your reward, you're just being given it by the computer entirely at random. You're not better off for being good at something, you're better off because of a dice roll. It's like a lottery. I'm sure any one of us would be thrilled if you won, sure, you'll go on the internet and tell all your friends that it's really awesome and great and there's nothing wrong with the system at all.

Then again, you could have just made millions doing something productive rather than throwing money away time and time again on a one in fourteen billion possibility that you'd make it big.

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Originally Posted by Penguinmayhem

Then again, you could have just made millions doing something productive rather than throwing money away time and time again on a one in fourteen billion possibility that you'd make it big.

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That's ... kind of the point. It is a time sink. By design.

It is also optional and in no way prevents you from attacking the content in FFXIV, should you choose to pass on it.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

That's ... kind of the point. It is a time sink. By design.

It is also optional and in no way prevents you from attacking the content in FFXIV, should you choose to pass on it.

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Someone who actually get it's. I fear that most people have a problem with timesinks in general, but then again miss the point that Relic-Progression is just an Option beside bought ( Soldiery Weapons ) and actual Raid Drops. If people do not like the one way or the other, they still have 2 more ways to get an "equal" weapon.

You don't need an FC or static to run Levi Ex. Maybe 2nd Coil, but not Levi.

Have you made any friends that are good players? Perhaps joined a LS with some decent folks that know how to play the game?

Personally I have a few LS that have people that run Levi and I know a fair amount of them just from playing with them in the game. That's how I get things done, and I'm in a small FC and have not even been in a static even for 1st Coil.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The Zenith currently feels like one to me.

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Yes, the Zenith weapons were a hand-out.
This was also the reason why the allagan weapons got a ilevel increase with 2.1, because at the end it was too simple to get a zenith weapon.
If the time challenge for the final weapons is the same like for atma and animus, the chances are good that not too many players would have it so that the final weapons can have the same ilevel like the best coil weapons again.

Most i have talked with have already given up on their secund job because of atma and myth farm for books afterwards...
Most who do not have their animus yet said they will give up on novus weapon when i told them it is planed for 2.25 -> delayed to 2.28 was a good move from SE to motivate at least some to finish the quest...
They lowered some achivements because ridiculous ammount of time you needed... Once again they show us, that it is not in their interest to let us play more than one job!

SE have completely lost their overview. At least on achivements you can work from level 1 onwards, but those atma is limited to conditions that makes it impossible for any newcomer to ever complete it for ONE job (special after 2.8)...

the trouble is some player was complaining about the fact that they was playing only one class and had nothing to do.
but i want to say, this game was made with the idea behind that we can play multiple class with the same character, however, if the design after make impossible to use this! it's a huge mistake!
don't copy WoW model totally, since it can't be used with the arsenal system!

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

bleep

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But it's not even a very smart time sink. A better time sink would be just straight up forcing all players to grind for however long the team decides it should take on a strictly linear basis, not an RNG that may or may not completely at random give some players their incredibly rare, hard to obtain reward after their first attempt and others after their eleven millionth attempt.

The RNG reward mentality just makes no sense to me, in this context, because it's not decreasing the rate at which people get their reward, it's removing any actual quantifiable sense of progress and turning a grind quest into something utterly tedious and pointless. You're not working toward something that's RNG-controlled, you're not increasing your chances of getting one the more you do it, that's not how probability works. Every single time you do this quest, you have exactly the same one-in-a-million chance of getting your reward, and there is nothing you can do to improve that.

That's anti-player gameplay. That's 1980s gameplay. That's punishing people for wanting something.

I knew that "Theory" was a bunch of crap. Nice to have him put it out there clearly so it can die.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

See, you can't approach luck like that or you'll drive yourself crazy.

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I know tht lol thus why i gave up after the first few hours of atma grinding on the first few days of patch.
I knew it was going to be all badluck and bs from there on. So i was like nope and then left to go waste my time somewhere else doing something else. Logged off, turned on wii u and played some other games that were casual cuz it's more fun like that. (Mh3u, mario 3d world, nintendo land!! :D)
Then i thought while i was slaying monsters and jumping on goombas; what if i got an atma piece by now? Pfffft lol wtf am i thinking? Not even.

Fates hate me and i hate fates.
The feeling is mutual and we have both come to an agreement that we just cannot coexist with eachother while the other still being happy.
So thank you to all those fate parties zerging those fates around me, i really appreciate it.
Death to fates my comrades.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I knew that "Theory" was a bunch of crap. Nice to have him put it out there clearly so it can die.

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Pff. He *would* say that, wouldn't he. 300 FATEs no Atma, by Nophica's rump.

#DarksteelFoilHat

What I find funny about all this Atma and Zodiac weapon thing is that the Manderville quest line has a way more elaborate storyline and execution. That's telling a lot.

It's statistically fair- It's just a terrible design because of the vast variance in player experience.

I could also say that all players have an RNG based chance at renewing their subs- do YOU think SE would appreciate that their success rest solely in the hands of RNG?

I doubt it.

What sucks and is when a buddy been off the game for weeks. Then comes on and gets 12 atma in a few hrs. While you are still working on the last one you need spending 20hrs+ on. And he all ready got a few for the second relic. Yea that happen to me. Like wtf . Couldn't even laugh.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

It's statistically fair- It's just a terrible design because of the vast variance in player experience.

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It is not, the law of large numbers does not even begin to apply until your sample size=>1000. Since atma drops give a discrete yes/no result, you should be able to use the binomial distribution and work out exactly how many FATEs you have to do before your atma drop rate converges on the expected ~2%. It's probably a few hundred FATEs just to get the drop rate to converge within 1% of the expectation. I.e. one person could easily be seeing 3 times the drops of another after many hundreds of fates.

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Originally Posted by Kasathar

What I find funny about all this Atma and Zodiac weapon thing is that the Manderville quest line has a way more elaborate storyline and execution. That's telling a lot.

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I think people are looking a little too far into the purpose and symbolism that FFXIV intends with the relic quests. They have historical value, but aren't exactly the end-all be-all that people make them out to be for this game. I mean, consider the AF pieces. They traditionally have a similar purpose and role, like their weapon equivalent, but no one really cares about that anymore. There were complaints originally, but like anything people get up-in-arms about, they forget or don't care about it over time. And people wonder why devs shouldn't listen to players about long-term changes to every little thing.

With Hildibrand, it's purely a story related thing and has no symbolic meaning to it beyond FFXIV 1.0. They can essentially have fun with it and no one can argue otherwise. Creative freedom is a beautiful thing when you don't have to worry about unruly consumers.

Just had an idea for atma droprates to entice more weapons being earned- Just like when you hit your first 50 class, you get a +50% bonus on all exp forever more thanks to armory bonus, do the same for atma droprate once you earn your first Animus MH. It's so simple o.o

Let's face it guys, ATMA is basically Yoshi-P and/or SE slapping everyone in the face. He's just playing dumb in these interviews to politely sweep it under the rug. The whole quest chain could easily take a month or two of dedicated playing to complete. Even then, the end result is a tier two weapon that may take another month or two to upgrade again in future patches.

You need 33 hrs to even get the 13,500 myth tomes, assuming 100 every 15 mins. And that's the easy part. Plug in the avg time spend on atma, then downtime waiting for book related fate spawns. Essentially, for anyone that plays less than 4hrs a day (that's a LOT for anyone with any kind of life), this tier 2 weapon (maybe tier 3? compare to tidal wave and high allagen?) is still very far from reach. There you have it, progression for casual players, gone.

I never believed in the conspiracy theories floating around. Good to see them put to rest. Now those people who create them can just focus on farming their atma's instead.

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Originally Posted by skho01

Let's face it guys, ATMA is basically Yoshi-P and/or SE slapping everyone in the face. He's just playing dumb in these interviews to politely sweep it under the rug. The whole quest chain could easily take a month or two of dedicated playing to complete. Even then, the end result is a tier two weapon that may take another month or two to upgrade again in future patches.

You need 33 hrs to even get the 13,500 myth tomes, assuming 100 every 15 mins. And that's the easy part. Plug in the avg time spend on atma, then downtime waiting for book related fate spawns. Essentially, for anyone that plays less than 4hrs a day (that's a LOT for anyone with any kind of life), this tier 2 weapon (maybe tier 3? compare to tidal wave and high allagen?) is still very far from reach. There you have it, progression for casual players, gone.

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Meh, relics are most likely never going to be the best weapon out there. Given the Levi weapons included in 2.2, I'd wager that relic weapons will become like AF pieces. A filler/alternative for endgame raiders and primarily intended for "everyone". That is, it's there as an option for everyone and should satisfy non-raiders. Besides the "relic" identity it has, I doubt there's any legitimate reason complainers, that have access to better weapons, are trying to obtain them. Maybe it's for the "what-if" potential in future patches... okay, that's fine. If so, why the rush for something that may never happen and currently has no value compared to the alternatives? The players are the ones who are suckered into the "must have" mentality, evident by the fact there are better options available with (potentially) significantly less RNG/time needed.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Meh, relics are most likely never going to be the best weapon out there.

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2.28 has them slated for i115, so there's that.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

2.28 has them slated for i115, so there's that.

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Do you have the source for this? i doubt they will be i115 in 2.28 especially since we'll upgrade it more in 2.3

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Originally Posted by kiraan

Do you have the source for this? i doubt they will be i115 in 2.28 especially since we'll upgrade it more in 2.3

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bl97wQmCcAAYEO8.jpg

From left to right; Relic, Allagan, Soldiery, Primal ( Levi )

So according to this ( was Famitsu iirc ), the next Stage after Animus will be 115.

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Originally Posted by Nero

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bl97wQmCcAAYEO8.jpg

From left to right; Relic, Allagan, Soldiery, Primal ( Levi )

So according to this ( was Famitsu iirc ), the next Stage after Animus will be 115.

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hmmm brb i have some myth farming to do :p

I believe my aquisition of my atmas in a timely manner is a result of the game paying me back for all those times I've gone into coil and to this day NEVER seen a Ring of Striking or Ring of Maiming drop while I was there.

Someone had a great idea in a previous thread about Atma drops (let me know who it is and I'll credit them):

* Everyone starts off with the current Low Drop Rate.
* For every FATE completed with No Atma Drop (in that region), they increase the Drop Rate +1%.
* So eventually (if Start Drop Rate was, say, 1%), at the worst, it would take 99 FATEs to eventually get your Atma Drop (1% + 99% (99 increases of 1%)).

If people think 100 FATEs is too little, they can start the increase after X# of FATES Completed with No Drops.

This sounds like a good compromise with the RNG and Time Sink that Yoshi P wants (and that "lottery" feel), but eventually working your way to a guaranteed Atma Drop with patience and effort.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

This sounds like a good compromise with the RNG and Time Sink that Yoshi P wants (and that "lottery" feel), but eventually working your way to a guaranteed Atma Drop with patience and effort.

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100 is still really low. I would reconsider your 'compromise' if the odds didn't increase on a per-fate basis (remained low), but at 300 fates in an individual zone, an npc in the zone would recognize your efforts culling fiends in the area, and offered up an atma he/she "found". This feature would be zeroed-out, if an atma drops before the 300 mark, to prevent exploitation.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

100 is still really low. I would reconsider your 'compromise' if the odds didn't increase on a per-fate basis (remained low), but at 300 fates in an individual zone, an npc in the zone would recognize your efforts culling fiends in the area, and offered up an atma he/she "found". This feature would be zeroed-out, if an atma drops before the 300 mark, to prevent exploitation.

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I would actually agree with you. I feel 400 Fates is fair for all 12 atma, but honestly I'm at 700+ and I'm losing heart.

I'm 5/12 as of yesterday on my first atma weapon and I have no idea what will be my new main now that multispeccing is obviously going to be much harder in light of this new weapon system.

Paladin, White Mage and Dragoon are what I'm debating XD, I would say BLM but I feel like there are a gazillion casters (at least on Excalibur)

I already knew this.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Someone had a great idea in a previous thread about Atma drops (let me know who it is and I'll credit them):

* Everyone starts off with the current Low Drop Rate.
* For every FATE completed with No Atma Drop (in that region), they increase the Drop Rate +1%.
* So eventually (if Start Drop Rate was, say, 1%), at the worst, it would take 99 FATEs to eventually get your Atma Drop (1% + 99% (99 increases of 1%)).

If people think 100 FATEs is too little, they can start the increase after X# of FATES Completed with No Drops.

This sounds like a good compromise with the RNG and Time Sink that Yoshi P wants (and that "lottery" feel), but eventually working your way to a guaranteed Atma Drop with patience and effort.

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This is similar to how Blizzard addressed people's hatred of the RNG in Diablo 3 and it has turned the game around.