Doesn't it make more sense for Thaum. to have Raise/Rebirth II?

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Be a Thaumaturge, Join


p.s. we got cookies.
-D.

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The cookies are a lie.

:P

I don't believe one class = one job applies to mages because the classes are overly condensed. More likely to end up being 1 class = 2 jobs or a combination of magic + war.

Conjury is basically the summoning of spirits, and Necromancy is, historically, a school of conjury dealing with the summoning of ghosts and dead spirits for the purpose of divination. Thaumaturgy, on the other hand, literally translates to "miracle working"... in other words, a thaumaturge is like a saint.

That said, it would make more sense for Thaumaturge to be given Resurrection in its purest form, and Conjuror to be given a more "temporary" solution :)

Well, the poor Cons need something. The class just sucks right now.

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Originally Posted by allenshu

Correct.

Players can still play as classes in the future, which means classes are not replaced by jobs. Therefore, if you want flexibility, you can stay with classes without problems. On the other hand, if you want specific expert actions or equipments, you may need to put the job title on to be allowed to use those. This is why SE said, players can use classes in small party for daily leves or SP-gain purposes. For big events or fighting HNM, players will need full party and expert jobs to handle more difficult battles and situations.

Like I said, based on the released info, this class/job concept is essentially the same with what we have now. What SE doing is just give more hints to let players know what roles/jobs they can be based on the classes by setting some bonus and limitations corresponding to specific roles/jobs.

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I don't think it will be okay for people to just be their combined classes without the jobs because they have stated there will be situations and battles where roles have to be filled and done so particularly by a job. It can't essentially be the same as what we have now because the filter of jobs is going to stream line it into something different than the mix and match system we've come to know. They will both have their possible places in the game, (regular classes solo, jobs with parties) but you wouldn't have to worry about being a thaumaturge rank 50 and a conjurer rank 50 to be your ideal white mage if you possibly aren't allowed to use skills from the other class. This is speaking towards the immediate future jobs and not later on down the line combined class jobs. Which still probably would not require you to rank up both to the max level if you wanted the job.

THM and CON are both geared toward destruction. Conjurer is geared more toward Black Mage. Thaumaturge isn't geared to anything but being unique. Neither one is a White Mage. They can't be reconciled with the job system. The only sensible choice is to leave both paths open to the players. You can't make a nuker into a White Mage, sorry.

I think they should do away with the whole conal AoE mechanics being the specific mode of AoE for THM and instead build it in to different abilities and spells.

Hmm, I kind of was thinking that THM would get WHM, I think it would fit better with the existing lore, but those shiny new CON spells indicate otherwise. ;_; In the CON quests (and as seen in the Gridania storyline) the whole thing with the elementals is a pretty big deal, even a central one I daresay. And here are some copy/pasted tidbits from the NPC's at the THM guild:

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Tutubuki: If you would walk these halls, you must know of Nald'thal, the two aspects. It is Nald who rules over this world of the living, and Thal who keeps the realm of the dead.

Fyrilsunn: Arrzaneth Ossuary [the THM guild in Ul'dah] is the temple of Thal. His aspect is that of death and darkness, that which we shall all come to know in time. Many of the poor and destitute worship here. For it is they who seek a better place in death than they knew in life.

Totono: East of here lies Milvaneth Sacrarium. Within its halls, the exaltations and praises of life are sung. The aspect of Nald governs this side of existence─passions and possessions. Many who worship there are the wealthy and privileged─those most grateful for what they have.

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Based on that I'd have thought they could just give THM a quest to join the presumably more exclusive Milvaneth Sacrarium as their quest to unlock the WHM job.

Though I agree with a lot of posters here that neither mage job can neatly fit in WHM or BLM, and arguments can be made either way, so its gonna be sort of messy no matter what they do. xD Ah well, maybe they are planning something totally unexpected, who knows!

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Originally Posted by Fleur

Based on that I'd have thought they could just give THM a quest to join the presumably more exclusive Milvaneth Sacrarium as their quest to unlock the WHM job.

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Some quotes from NPCs in Milvaneth Sacrarium, Ul'dah.

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Anthoinette: You have come to the Milvaneth Sacrarium. here is the temple of Nald, Imbuer of Life. Do you care to make a donation to the faith?

Hahayo: Those who worship in the world of Nald value achievement over all else. Pray to him, and be rewarded in the here and now. Through him, salvation lies in the affirmation of life, friend.

Wise Moon: Place your trust in Nald. Give you life over to him, and we shall help you in whatever ways we are able.

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So for all those paying attention, only the Thaumaturges that worship Thal in Arrzaneth Ossuary embrace death (i.e. the Dark Side). Those of us Thaumaturges that embrace life (i.e. the Light Side) worship Nald at Milvaneth Sacrarium.

It seems even though fully half the reason we exist is to "imbue life", we're not getting the most powerful life imbuing spells. Seems very strange, no?

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

I don't think it will be okay for people to just be their combined classes without the jobs because they have stated there will be situations and battles where roles have to be filled and done so particularly by a job. It can't essentially be the same as what we have now because the filter of jobs is going to stream line it into something different than the mix and match system we've come to know. They will both have their possible places in the game, (regular classes solo, jobs with parties) but you wouldn't have to worry about being a thaumaturge rank 50 and a conjurer rank 50 to be your ideal white mage if you possibly aren't allowed to use skills from the other class. This is speaking towards the immediate future jobs and not later on down the line combined class jobs. Which still probably would not require you to rank up both to the max level if you wanted the job.

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I said the class/job "concept" is essentially the same with what we have now, and indeed they are.

It's obvious that, for now or even the beginning of FFXIV, if you want to solo or play in a small party, you will set more supply actions such as cure/sacrifice or drain MP to cover your HP/MP loss by yourself. However, when fighting hard enemies with a big party, you know a healer in your party will cover your HP, so you may just have one cure for emergency heal and you don't need spend much MP to cure yourself so then you may not need drain MP. Consequently, you will have extra action slots, and you can set more tank or attack actions to enhance your role in the big party. This creates the concept of "job".

In my opinion, there are not much fancy things SE will do in the future. SE now just completes what FFXIV supposed to be, and get players to know the game more enough to realize how to play (have fun). However, some compromises were also made, such as partially introducing Auto-Attack.

I always figured since con has 3 na spells cures and raise vs thm with just sacs and res, that con was more like whm

also, since con has all the elemental nukes, that one seems like blm over thm.

Thm seems more like rdm because it has the debuffs, and theres some drk in there too with the absorbs and all that life talk.

If the Development Team goes ahead with this, it going to be one of those "signature mistakes" that never get corrected. Dia and Bio being the perfect example from FFXI.

Bio is Dark Magic, but Dia, it's exact opposite in element and effect is Enfeebling Magic. It should have been Divine Magic. It just didn't make sense. That initial mistake carried over to Dia 2 and Bio 2, because the precedent was set. So now you have a small family of spells that don't make sense. Did it cause anyone to quit. Probably not. But it was just another one of those illogical game mechanics.

Conjurer White Mages and Thaumaturge Black Mages seem to fall into that same illogical trap.

Maybe all classes will have multiple job adv and conj can either be a blm or wm and maybe THM is going to become a RM or Blm possibly?

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Originally Posted by allenshu

In FFXIV, classes are not jobs, but you can create your ideal jobs from combining actions across classes.

For example, if you think a your ideal WHM can not only cure but also take a target's MP to keep your heal energy always full, you just need to put Siphon MP in your action list. Accordingly, you can even be a magic swordsman, magic archer, etc.

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I know that the Classes are not Jobs, but SE is going to connect the Classes to Jobs by making them the jumping off point to open said Jobs. Once we have the Jobs, SE already said players would be much more limited in what abilities that you can use on the Jobs, and that the Jobs would get their own special abilities to make up for the fact that you can't really use the large range of Class abilities on your Jobs. So in that sense, we might not be able to use Siphon MP with the Job WHM. So they are very difference things indeed:

Classes can use pretty much any ability from all other classes, making a great range of classes you can create.

Job will be unlocked by getting Classes to "X" level and will be much more limited in the use of Class abilities and given Job specific abilities that are Job use only.

So if that is the case, you can't create your ideal Job by combining Class abilities because Jobs and Classes are going to be two separate areas that can't exactly cross together.



On a totally different note... they have only announced Paladin, Dragoon (Dragon Knight), White Mage, Black Mage, Monk and Bard...

Also Musketeer and Anarchist (I believe it was) were announced classes that that have guilds but are not in the game yet.

So we have::

6 Announced Jobs

7 Classes

2 Missing Classes

1 Unannounced Job.... 3 if you count the missing Classes.

So in short, we don't have all the info, so there might be a missing job they haven't announced that connected to either CON or THAU.

Hope more info comes out! :D

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Originally Posted by KaiKatzchen

I know that the Classes are not Jobs, but SE is going to connect the Classes to Jobs by making them the jumping off point to open said Jobs. Once we have the Jobs, SE already said players would be much more limited in what abilities that you can use on the Jobs, and that the Jobs would get their own special abilities to make up for the fact that you can't really use the large range of Class abilities on your Jobs. So in that sense, we might not be able to use Siphon MP with the Job WHM. So they are very difference things indeed:

Classes can use pretty much any ability from all other classes, making a great range of classes you can create.

Job will be unlocked by getting Classes to "X" level and will be much more limited in the use of Class abilities and given Job specific abilities that are Job use only.

So if that is the case, you can't create your ideal Job by combining Class abilities because Jobs and Classes are going to be two separate areas that can't exactly cross together.

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Thinking it might be just DoM vs DoW. DoW jobs can only use DoW actions, DoM jobs can only use DoM actions.

Just taking a blind stab at it~

Con always felt more like an WHM it had more whm spells and everything. Also over 78% of the populous voted for drastic changes you cant complain about this stuff now. I already know any class i may like could be changed and i am ok with that.

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Originally Posted by Shyd

Thinking it might be just DoM vs DoW. DoW jobs can only use DoW actions, DoM jobs can only use DoM actions.

Just taking a blind stab at it~

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Yeah, see that's where SE really hasn't said heehee, they just said that class abilities would be greatly restricted and that's why Jobs would get their own special job abilities to make up for it.

I don't know how restricted SE is going to make it, but I can't wait for them to tell us so we know how much customization these new Jobs will have. To be honest, just from the information I've seen, it seems like they are going to keep the jobs pretty cut and dry to server a specific purpose.

They did say they wanted the jobs to be very specific, Tank, DD, DD Range, Healer etc... so that gives me the feeling they won't let us do much cross class customizing with the jobs. But that's just my opinion from what I have heard, and SE hasn't given full info yet. :)

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Originally Posted by Firon

Con always felt more like an WHM it had more whm spells and everything. Also over 78% of the populous voted for drastic changes you cant complain about this stuff now. I already know any class i may like could be changed and i am ok with that.

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I agree, I'm trying to stay open minded about the changes because everyone for the most part said they were open to it. Only thing that bugs me is when people ask for the changes, get the changes, then whine about them again... >.<

I'll be happy and adjust to whatever they do as long as in the long run it continues to imporve the game. :D

I'm all for change. As long as the changes make some logical sense. So far, the information given to us by the Development Team this go around doesn't make logical sense when compared to the lore of the game and the existing spell mechanics.

Now it is possible that the Development Team will make the necessary change to have things make logical sense. But those changes would have to include the following.

1. Move the 33 Elemental spells from Conjurer to Thaumaturge.
2. Move the 4 Astral spells from Thaumaturge to Conjurer.
3. Rewrite all the NPC dialog and in-game descriptions for all Thaumaturges and the Thaumaturge Guild.
4. Rewrite all the NPC dialog and in-game descriptions for all Conjurers and the Conjury Guild.

Or the Development Team could use the lore already in the game (i.e. Nald, the Imbuer of Life), and only have to do the following.

1. Move the 9 Astral/Curing spells from Conjurer to Thaumaturge.

This seems like the mother of all no-brainers to me.

soon the games is gonna change the jobs and 1.18 will be the first of the new way to play no one knows how its gonna feel yet.

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Rewrite all the NPC dialog and in-game descriptions for all Thaumaturges and the Thaumaturge Guild.

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they dont have to re-write much jobs & your name and possibly npc names are most likely a variables.

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Originally Posted by indira

they dont have to re-write much jobs & your name and possibly npc names are most likely a variables.

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I respectfully disagree. Because all the elemental magic has to be moved from the Conjurer's guild to the Thaumaurge's Guild, every NPC that refers to elemental magic or where Thaumaturges get their power from would have to be changed. That includes at least the following.

• 10 NPCs in Arrzaneth Ossuary.
• 9 NPCs in Milvaneth Sacrarium.
• 13 NPCs in Stillglade Fane.

This doesn't include the NPCs scattered throught Eorzea that refer to elemental magic, conjurers, thaumaturges ... or any of the Guild Quests. Agreed it's certainly not 100s of NPCs, but it clearly more than just a few.

wtf are the devs smoking

According to the lore, THM's dont get Raise cause they are just TOO magical, and Conjurers get Raise because during the third banana war between Goatzapeia, Windurst and the American National Front ended with Conjurers watching a daytime special on how to bring back the dead.

This was just before Mimsy Dimsdale rebuilt Ul'Dah out of Pokemon cards, following the 19th war of the cherokee indians.

(For those that don't know, this game has no lore, and what lore it has makes as much sense as the above)

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Originally Posted by Deceptistar

wtf are the devs smoking

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Exactly what will you NOT whine about?

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Originally Posted by KaiKatzchen

I know that the Classes are not Jobs, but SE is going to connect the Classes to Jobs by making them the jumping off point to open said Jobs. Once we have the Jobs, SE already said players would be much more limited in what abilities that you can use on the Jobs, and that the Jobs would get their own special abilities to make up for the fact that you can't really use the large range of Class abilities on your Jobs. So in that sense, we might not be able to use Siphon MP with the Job WHM.

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I think my previous posts in this thread already explained these =)

For those you quoted, I was simply saying that classes are not jobs in FFXIV (that's why they are called "Classes" in the very beginning). Therefore, it's meaningless to claim one class to be one job directly, and of course, it's also meaningless to discuss why CON is not like WHM or THM is not like BLM. (Because, again, classes are not jobs in FFXIV). Based on released info so far, it's known that jobs in the future are built upon the classes. Right now, players can set actions to play the roles/jobs they want in a party. After jobs are introduced, SE gives players job titles and corresponding bonus/limitations to let players know what classes/actions are required for specific jobs.

And again, jobs will not replace classes, they are built upon classes. Players can play as classes or jobs depends on different situations.

I think whatever class has cure is whm. Nuff said?

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Originally Posted by cdreamworld

I think whatever class has cure is whm. Nuff said?

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or Red Mage, being as they get it as default too... or Scholar... oh and Paladins... so yeah...

Guys, the lore is changing. There is no way they can keep the same lore and make this change to class play. Either the dev team will use the Seventh Umbral to change lore or they will rewrite it all anyway. I too would have liked to see CON = WHM and BLM and THM = RDM and TIME or something else but that's not the way it's going.

All of this would have been easier if they started the game off right. Since we are rebuilding we all have to roll with the punches. CONs should rejoice and THMs should chill, we were WAY overpowered anyway. We don't need more Raise spells.

In fact, there are more potential advantages for players to have this class-job system compared to traditional jobs one.

First, players only need to level fewer basic classes to play more jobs. Say CON can unlock WHM, THM can unlock BLM, and CON+THM can unlock RDM. Players only need to level 2 classes to enjoy 3 jobs. Same principles are applied to PLD, DRK, etc. No more start from level 1 like a noob when you obtain a new job.

Second, players have more flexibility to form a small party for various purposes. Say you want to make a SP party, but there is no tank out there. In FFXIV, you don't need to wait 1-2 hours to wait PLD or NIN pop. Players can simply rearrange their actions set to include more defense actions to become a tank capable for SP purpose.

Don't make the same mistake like ask Auto-Attack back (and it's back). SE will love to just put those old jobs back in FFXIV. Traditional jobs system wastes more time for players, and thus makes more money for SE.

Yes! THM deserve to have Resurrect II and something equal to Rebirth

or at least make Raise II and Rebirth unique to DoM instead of CON specific

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Originally Posted by Rubicon

Guys, the lore is changing. There is no way they can keep the same lore and make this change to class play. Either the dev team will use the Seventh Umbral to change lore or they will rewrite it all anyway. I too would have liked to see CON = WHM and BLM and THM = RDM and TIME or something else but that's not the way it's going.

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I believe there is a difference between adding lore, changing lore, and retroactive continuity of lore. Retcons are significantly more difficult to successfully execute than the other two. I've only seen it successfully pulled off twice ... Crisis on Infinite Earths in the DC Universe and the new Star Trek movie. Every other attempt has either been pitiful or disastrous.

I would feel better if the FFXIV Development Team did not go the retcon route to achieve their goals. In the end, it's their call though.

anyone whos done both the conj and thaum class quests would agree it makes more sense that thaum get Resurrect II and rebirth...

But maybe they plan to change the lore.

ALL will change, in multiple spontaneous combustions

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Originally Posted by Vahzl

Exactly what will you NOT whine about?

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forums are here to either discuss, help, rant, or just plain communicate for enjoyment.

I would appreciate it if you would keep personal attacks of forum members to yourself and not insinuate your ideas of what is worth or not worth posting. Please do not take it to a point where you yourself are posting to undermine someone who does not fit your beliefs, even tho the other has not attacked you.
i do not even know you...

thank you

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Originally Posted by Deceptistar

wtf are the devs smoking

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Becuase matter how you see it or others Conj= WHM and THM is BLM does not matter if Conj have the black mage spell it still a white mage Cure,cure2? it more of a white mage then BLM too me.

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Originally Posted by Deceptistar

forums are here to either discuss, help, rant, or just plain communicate for enjoyment.

I would appreciate it if you would keep personal attacks of forum members to yourself and not insinuate your ideas of what is worth or not worth posting. Please do not take it to a point where you yourself are posting to undermine someone who does not fit your beliefs, even tho the other has not attacked you.
i do not even know you...

thank you

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I like to welcome you to the forums good luck with that no one here cares this is why i block half the people on here :) "Blacklist is your friend.

It didn't make sense at first that CON=WHM and THM=BLM until the new Raise spells started pushing it into that direction. So THM/BLM's are gonna nuke with Scourge now instead of the elemental spells from CON? In my opinion, they kinda messed up the spell lists pretty bad for CON and THM in the beginning since they both have spells from WHM, BLM and RDM and now when they implement jobs it's going to cause problems because of the spells they both have that contradict a lot of things.

Although they did say they were going to change the abilities and spells around a bit right? I hope they make something work. ._.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

I like to welcome you to the forums good luck with that no one here cares this is why i block half the people on here :) "Blacklist is your friend.

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haha thanks XD
ill be careful of the weirdos, tho i have no intention of walking on eggshells for them ^^b

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Originally Posted by Roll

It didn't make sense at first that CON=WHM and THM=BLM until the new Raise spells started pushing it into that direction. So THM/BLM's are gonna nuke with Scourge now instead of the elemental spells from CON? In my opinion, they kinda messed up the spell lists pretty bad for CON and THM in the beginning since they both have spells from WHM, BLM and RDM and now when they implement jobs it's going to cause problems because of the spells they both have that contradict a lot of things.

Although they did say they were going to change the abilities and spells around a bit right? I hope they make something work. ._.

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THM unlock black mage you use Fire,wind,earth and so on from CONJ you set as a role but that does not mean you can't use conj Fire,earth spell with your Black mage.

Can someone please link me to the source that says that, currently as of development, there is one class = one job? I only thought it that the job will be locked to one class, but I haven't seen anything that said that classes can't have more than one job. It would be helpful to narrow it down to that so we can 'speculate' properly.

So far, if classes can have multiple jobs, I'll say that Conjurer will branch into Black Mage and White Mage, whereas Thaumaturge will branch into Arcane Mage and Time Mage. I will stick to that view unless it has been confirmed that one class will ONLY get one job. So someone, please, confirm for me, because this topic has just caused me to doubt that point.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

Can someone please link me to the source that says that, currently as of development, there is one class = one job? I only thought it that the job will be locked to one class, but I haven't seen anything that said that classes can't have more than one job. It would be helpful to narrow it down to that so we can 'speculate' properly.

So far, if classes can have multiple jobs, I'll say that Conjurer will branch into Black Mage and White Mage, whereas Thaumaturge will branch into Arcane Mage and Time Mage. I will stick to that view unless it has been confirmed that one class will ONLY get one job. So someone, please, confirm for me, because this topic has just caused me to doubt that point.

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Now you gonna make other people look for stuff for you huh? i see how it is..

That would take forever to find now. But Bayohne told us it was in the devs plans to have one class unlock one job.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

THM unlock black mage you use Fire,wind,earth and so on from CONJ you set as a role but that does not mean you can't use conj Fire,earth spell with your Black mage.

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Yeah but then SE runs into the Lore problem :/