^ Best feedback yet on the topic of Atma/Animus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybris-Maenad
Finished my Animus last night, guess I'll supply feedback just in case this is read by anyone on SEs side.
Don't change anything about the rng/grinding aspect of this weapon. You provided many alternative and superior paths to obtain i100+ weapons for anyone that is skilled at the game. This weapon is in no way necessary for anyone only aiming for endgame raiding nor is it necessary for any content outside of coil. It is a trophy for those of us that are up for a long-term grind, something that was generally lacking in this game.
The only negative thing I can say about the quest is that it brought back a high level of impatience to the duty finder. Brayflox hm runs via duty finder are in no way enjoyable due to the speed runners throwing a fit every time someone new to the quest joins. Main scenario roulette has also been negativly affected by bringing back a higher number of people that are unwilling to let those newly completing the game to enjoy the experience.
I would have no problem if the book completion requirements were doubled or tripled to compensate for a reduction in myth tomes required for each book.
Aside from all of that, thank you for including content that takes a long time to attain/upgrade. I'm proud of my effort and happy to have something not everyone has the patience to complete.
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05-12-2014, 08:15 AMDuuude007^ Best feedback yet on the topic of Atma/Animus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybris-Maenad
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05-12-2014, 04:19 PMYumi_umi
If only someone with all 9 animus weps could post a reply to SE lol.
Cuz only that person will know the true feeling of what kind of grind atma / animus is.
Cuz that's 108 atma pieces &
121,500 myth tomes.
Do that and you shall earn the rights to most important poster in atma threads! Seriously only an insane player would do this. -
05-15-2014, 03:26 AMTeslo
It's easy to say that there's nothing wrong with the RNG factor when you've beaten it. Those of us who do have the patience to complete this and are still only 5 Atmas in after; how long has this content patch been out?; despite constant farming, we obviously have a different opinion. We've been totally screwed over by this and a lack of any kind of communication is only making it worse. I don't mind taking a long time to farm something. I like the idea that something is hard. But this isn't HARD. It's LUCK. Bashing my face into a screen for months on end praying to any deity that'll listen to just LET IT DROP THIS TIME is not FUN or CHALLENGING. I'm looking forward to several months from now when I can start doing books, because at least I'll have a metric by which to gauge my progress. THAT makes a long grind tolerable. Get off your high "I won, you're impatient and suck, so stop bitching" horse. There's a real problem here and people with that kind of attitude are making it worse.
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05-15-2014, 07:33 AMDuuude007If they consider making zodiac gating easier, then they will be forced to consider the same for high allagan weapons. For balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teslo
Be careful what you wish for. -
05-15-2014, 07:42 AMLangureion
Humm....maybe spend your valuable time on real life stuff rather than this? lol
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05-15-2014, 07:42 PMRaestlozI don't get your reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
High Allagan Weapons drop from the last Turn of Bahamut. If you somehow managed to procure it, you've just defeated the entirety of Bahamut WIHOUT it. It's now nothing but a bragging rights until the next turn of Bahamut rolls.
At that point, no amount of balance will counter the fact that you've finished Bahamut. I'm not saying that they can make them have 99999 damage and be totally a-okay, but what kind of balance can you bring to the table to counter removing the RNG aspect of Atma? -
05-16-2014, 01:39 AMUnmotivated
I honestly can't wait to see what crap they're going to pull for the next step.
I really don't think they put a lot of thought into these as typical weapon progression, their main concern was to funnel people back into old content that doesn't see any play on it's own merits. Do you think it's a coincidence that upgrading to atma requires you to do level 10 content in the starter zones just in time for the new PS4 players? That the books require you to do dungeons that you are guaranteed to have completed already, and that the FATEs you need for the books that were once regular occurrences now seem to respawn a lot less frequently than they used to?
That's ultimately my only real problem with the relic upgrade path, how blatant they're being about what it's really for. Instead of a reasonable challenge to upgrade like it was to make in the first place, they're simply using it as an excuse to pad the numbers of their less successful content. -
05-16-2014, 03:47 PMNekodarI thought the comment was obvious... easier zodiak gating might lead to second coil nerf...Quote:
Originally Posted by Raestloz
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05-17-2014, 08:33 AMKatchii1) The Zodiac content isn't hard now, it's completely luck based. An FC member got all 12 of his Atma in about 13 hours in 1 day, while someone else spent 4 days, 3-4 hours each day on ONE.Quote:
I thought the comment was obvious... easier zodiak gating might lead to second coil nerf...
2) The main grind for the Atma weapons comes in the form of the books. If they increased or changed the drop chance of Atmas, they could easily tweak the books to account for the difference by making them cost more, or increasing the number of tasks needed to finish them.
3) The Turn 9 Weapons are acquired from skill, while the Zodiac weapons are acquired by time are inferior to the Turn 9 weapons, equal or inferior to the Leviathan Ex weapons. Making the Atma for Zodiac weapon chain easier to get would not change the mechanics needed to acquire those other weapons and would have a negligible affect on game balance. Those with skill and are in Turn 2 content, already have weapons equal to or better than the Zodiac weapons -
05-20-2014, 12:27 PMomfgwtf
have any of the people griping about this ever played any other ff title... the relic weapons are a staple of the game.. they are supposed to be incredibly hard to obtain and make you very OP. if you don't like grinding or rng.. maybe mmorpg is not for you. not everyone is supposed to have them.. im not sure why Yoshi is catering to whiney people and not to the hardcore ff fans that have stood by them for YEARS. im currently working on my 4th atma weapon with 2 animus already complete... and some of those at atmas took me a LONG ass time to get.. but you eventually WILL get them...
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05-20-2014, 08:17 PMGrotesqueRun a business and learn $$$Quote:
Originally Posted by omfgwtf
He who pays the piper calls the tune. -
05-20-2014, 11:28 PMTresparYeah man, doing fates and farming 6 minute dungeons is so difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by omfgwtf
I'm sure that most people against atma and animus would very much prefer to do some actual challenging content to get the next stage of relic. I know I do.
Locking relic weapons behind a bore-wall is not the way to do. -
05-21-2014, 12:02 AMKingOfAbyssBecause its the new generation that has everything handed down to them with a little whining.Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Magical_Unicorn_Rider
*they never played old MMOs to compare, and I'm not referring to WoW.
(just wait until SE will make 'hopefully" Zodiark better than the high allagan, for all of this hard work: people will fate, fate, fate.. ;) ) -
05-21-2014, 12:05 AMKingOfAbyssQuote:
Originally Posted by Grotesque
Almost similar to "The client is always right" - right.
I prefer to get rid of a bad client that will give shit to me everyday, and keeping the few but nice ones, even if it means having a lower revenue. -
05-21-2014, 12:24 AMSpoekesYou have to look at the amount of complaints and react accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss
In an mmo, losing a significiant enough number of a players can or likely will lead to more players being unsatisfied (i.e. less player may lead to longer queues which may lead to even less player which may lead to even longer queues and so on - this circle is very hard to break. There are players who decide not to play a good game because it has to little population) -
05-21-2014, 03:52 AMMilesSaintboroguhQuote:
Originally Posted by Spoekes
Pretty much this. Just look at PvP with everyone whining about long wait times. I bet most have given up on the mode because of it. -
05-21-2014, 04:39 AMMythToken
I think, for the next Atma upgrade in the new patch, they should have us get 24 shard crystals 2 of each.
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05-21-2014, 04:40 AMMythTokenAre you quitting?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoekes
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05-21-2014, 05:00 AMZophar
I would love to see challenging content added to the makings of these weapons. At the same time, I want it to not be like trials. I want a setup that proves that the owner of one of these weapons has the skill to have it. Now, the way things currently are, you are forced to do the work yourself, you really can't just buy your atma/animus. On the other hand, with the relic/zenith, you could just pay money and be carried through the whole thing. I want a quest that mixes the best of both worlds; challenging content that forces you to actually pull your own weight and do the work. Maybe setup fights with an evaluation system. You have to do so much damage/healing/tanking, otherwise, no KI for you. I mean, after all, if you don't have the skill to earn the weapon, then you don't have the skill to do any of the harder content for which you would need said weapon.
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05-21-2014, 05:12 AMLogoThats already in place for high level weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_Berry
The Binding Coil of Bahamut -
05-21-2014, 05:28 AMKingOfAbyssWhat people on forums are getting into: complain much - SE will nerf it. ( I mean, why getting into a forum anyway, to give constructive ideas? To say that so far ARR is a very good rehash of version 1.0, a great game so far? - nuuuuuu)Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoekes
Smart ones catched on very quickly, and now the trend has changed from - it's challenging and fun, I like it that way! to - it's challenging, I don't like it, SE has to change else I will rage/quit the game.
Plus.. I don't know about your FC which I see lots that have 150 members, only 20-25 online at any time, each doing their own stuff, and not having the luck of being mixed with more than average players to down Coil and EM Primals. (do we really need to be that perfect to complete the endgame?)
Less people will enforce grouping, and FF Fan boys-girls might still stick to it. - No queue cause you would be playing entirely with your FC mates. Duty Roulette? bah, we can skip and help lower ones by becoming our member and helping them through content. (sorry japanese solo players - the which DR was implemented for? - you'll be on your own)
As for PvP - Sadly, I don't like PvP. I am just tempted by it because of the Lion set gear.. go to with my Warlion.. ty Glamour.
There will always be some that will be unpleased by any game features added.
I hate RNG myself, but if it's how SE made it for this game, and I play this game.. good luck to all, even Yoshi ;) -
05-21-2014, 06:15 AMgryphn
The fate situation for Atma grinding basically sucks Yoshida because this. Everyone in my server is constantly (24 hours a day) destroying the fates so most people don't even get to join in on and roll the proverbial dice to get atma, if that's even possible. I have spent 3 weeks and gotten 6 when other players get them in a day. This is pretty F#$%ED up and completely biased.
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05-22-2014, 06:56 AMTesloThis. ^Quote:
Originally Posted by gryphn
I'm not whining to get SE to make it easier. I don't want it to be easy. I want it to be FUN. The two are not mutually exclusive. I'm raging at the fact that I could literally be stuck at the number of Atmas that I currently have until the end of time, no matter how many FATEs I do. Is that likely? No. Have I spent a LOT more time than most people farming for these things with no payout? Yes. If this was a challenge of some kind, through some boss, or just a simple "Put in your time to get the stuff to advance the quest" I'd have it by now. THAT'S what I'm raging about. -
05-22-2014, 12:54 PMZophar
It's actually the opposite thing on my server. Everyone swarmed the fates the first week or two then stopped almost all together. Working on my third right now, and for the most part, I'm soloing. There may be a group running around during prime hours. But try going at night, and the zone is abandoned, and based on the number of fates it took me to get my first two sets of atmas with people running around destroying them in a minute or two, going to soloing each one over the span of 5-10 minutes each is.... unsettling. But, it does give me something to do.
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05-24-2014, 04:07 PMImmut
My major issue with the atma quest is how it doesn't reward skill at all. You're doing ilvl 50 or less content to get an ilvl 100 weapon. That's just not right. I think Novus should require the completion of an ilvl 100+ 4 man instance. Mostly because we also need ilvl 100+ 4-man instances.
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05-24-2014, 05:03 PMEnepttastic
Gonna chime in here and throw some info, that I'm sure has already been mentioned, as well as a suggested change. Before I begin, I played during beta, wasn't terribly thrilled with how many things were. Subbed because some RL friends are playing. That said...
Source: Live Letter Q/A 04/09/2014Quote:
Until now there have been mainly two means of progression: the first being defeating powerful enemies in end-game content to obtain high-item-level equipment, and the second being collecting Allagan tomestones to purchase gear. The Zodiac Weapons do not have the restrictions of these two methods, but are designed to take a long time to complete.
If the Zodiac Weapons aren't to be restricted by tomestones, I have to wonder as to why they currently require more tomes than it'd take to fully outfit a character with?
Radz-at-Han Quenching Oil - 225 Tomes
Thavnairian Mist - 300 x 3
Books - 1500 x 9
Total: 14625
This is compared to a full set of Myth Tome gear:
Head - 495
Body - 825
Hands - 495
Waist - 495
Legs - 825
Feet - 495
Earrings - 375
Necklace - 375
Rings - 375 x 2
Total - 5130
With the tomes one would use to upgrade a single relic, you could get THREE jobs worth of tome gear and have overlap thanks to the waist and accessory slots.
This is absurd in an of itself before even getting into the hells that is Atma farming, which is honestly a slap in the face toward the player base IMO. That said, here's my suggestion on reworking both Atma and book acquisition, while keeping in mind the stated purpose of the grinds:
Atma Acquisition: Head's up, still FATE grinding and dealing with RNG here, but with a few tweaks.
First off, upon receiving the quest, one obtains twelve key items, Atma Synthesizers, each tied to the appropriate Atma. Lore-wise, they exist to harvest energy from the Fate mobs and create Atma out of it. Participating in Fates in the appropriate zone allows the Synthesizer to collect a percentage of energy. Once full, use it to get the Atma.
This method has a few perks to it compared to the system as-is. For one, you can actually see progress. It may not be much but at least you see some. This also helps those who have the misfortune of having the RNG absolutely hate them. Even if you get the lowest amount of energy from each fate, you know you will get there eventually. Additionally, having the synthesizers would also remove the requirement of having a Zenith weapon equipped to farm, meaning you would have the option to level other jobs while farming for Atma. This would also help relieve some of the tedious nature of the system as-is.
Book Acquisition: Only changing HOW one gets the books here.
There's nine books and 11 pre-50 dungeons. Pick nine dungeons, make a quest for each book that requires you to defeat the final boss of a dungeon. Make each book a 100%(preferably 100%, no lower than 25%) drop from the designated dungeon instead. This would be given to the player directly and not something rolled on either similar to how Atmas are distributed currently.
What this does: Gives some incentive to run the low-level dungeons, and yet again can be done as one levels a different class as well which can aid in the tedium. This also removes the absurd Tome requirement from the books, which reduces an idiotically priced grind that was stated to not be a part of the Zodiac weapons to begin with. -
05-24-2014, 06:43 PMSecsyMancat
Do you want an i100 weapons --> No --> stop reading
Yes--> Do you have skill? --> Yes --> SCOB
No --> Then do you really need an i100 weapon? --> No --> stop reading
Yes --> What size groups do you like? --> 8 man --> Go do Levi EX and pray to RNGesus for a mirror
1-4 man --> Get a Zodiak
--> But I came from WoW and really really really want free loot --> Go back to WoW -
05-25-2014, 03:54 PMFreyar
It's not about free loot, it's about not wasting an absurd amount of player's time.
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05-25-2014, 05:57 PMDuuude007Who's time is it wasting? If you want to save time to get an i100 weapon, you would be farming SCOB or Levi (or SC2 in a month).Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyar
Those are for people who are hardcore or casual, respectively. Animus is for everybody else who fits in neither category (or both).
You were granted 4 different i100+ weapons, pick your own play style and shoot for that one. Don't try to force something from the rest of us who legitimately like the Animus process.
It's not broken, don't try to fix it. -
05-25-2014, 07:48 PMJeniLinsky
The bottom line is that we speak the wrong language for Square Enix to give two poops in a barrel what we think about anything in the game.
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05-25-2014, 08:03 PMLuxLeonhart
The point is, I don't have the feeling like I am progressing in something. Making us doing FATEs over and over is painful, yeah, but also is unrewarding. How about this "each fate drops a quantity of stones required to get an Atma"? They could be even "you drop two, for an atma you need 200", or be weekly capped, but at least you can actually see your progresses somehow.
We have people who can virtually (and not) get their Atma Weapon in one or two days, while other may take months.
If SE wanted to make us grinding using low levels FATEs in order to help others, they could have developed the system better and different than this. -
05-26-2014, 11:07 PMThirdChild_ZKI
This argument really is going in circles. Anyone who makes a legitimate complaint is "whining" and wants everything handed to them, which isn't always the case. Anyone who already has an Atma/Animus weapon sees no problem and suggests "Run SCOB/Levi EX and stop complaining"
Actually, do just that. Forget about Atma/Animus weapons, and that'll REALLY get their attention, the alternatives are already in place for you. Nothing says "I don't like your product" like complete disinterest, sudden decline, or massive migration to a different "product". By this, I mean let the numbers do the talking. SE has already shown you that these are factors they consider when it comes to implementation:
Lots of people complained that getting Zenith weapons was too easy/too quick -----> Atma/Animus system
Not enough people had Animus weapons by a given time -----> Novus upgrades got pushed back
Decreased numbers in Tanks -----> Bigger rewards/incentives for Tanks
Fewer people moved to the Goblet (Ul'dah housing) because of the uninteresting view -----> Ul'dah housing slated for change
So yes, go for the Coil/Leviathan/Ramuh weapons and bring the Atma/Animus/Novus grind to a complete stop. THAT will get their attention. As for those who see no problem with the system, keep in mind, this will affect your progression too. It already has once. -
05-27-2014, 11:14 AMLDSkinny
I know that no one really cares, nor is anyone of consequence paying attention to this forum, but I canceled my account as soon as I saw there would be no changes to the atma system in 2.3.
They could have done many things to prevent people from getting it too quickly, but I crossed the 50 hour mark last week and I have two atmas. I'm just done with it. It's gotten to the point where each time I complete a fate I get angrier and angrier, as I am the only person in my FC who does not have their animus, and I know that my inability to obtain one will eventually hold us back.
I love difficult challenging content, but Animus requires no skill to obtain at all. Each player is assigned an amount of time they need to invest to obtain it, some 5 hours, some 5 weeks, some a year. For someone like me who has spent weeks with two atmas to show for it, well, Square Enix has made it clear that they no longer wish to allow me to progress. Thus I no longer wish to provide them with money -
05-27-2014, 11:40 AMDuuude007Ironically, to my benefit. Instead of 2 atma weapons complete, I have six now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Your "consequence" was many of our 'silver lining'. -
05-27-2014, 12:15 PMThirdChild_ZKI
Good for you, Duuude. I'm sure that gave plenty of players, myself included, time to catch up. One could even suggest it was a ruse intended to push players to work harder for it, but I'd rather not get into speculation like that.
Anyways, those who actually like the Atma/Animus system, you are unfortunately the majority. By and large, players both hardcore and casual, Japanese or otherwise dislike the system. It's not the length, it's not even really the grind. It's the completely random element. Imagine if even with the best gear, the most solid team, and the best strategies, it was still based around RNG to survive a Primal fight? No patterns, no warnings or visual cues. A pure RNG battle. . . Do you think people would be satisfied with that? (I'll head off the sarcastic responses ahead of time: some would. But with patterned battles already posing a challenge, adding a completely random one would be a step in the wrong direction, and even SE has noted that themselves.) That is what we're dealing with. It doesn't matter where, it doesn't matter how, it doesn't even matter which FATE you run - you have virtually NO control over whether you get it or not. That's not a grind. That's a gamble.
I said it before, hit 'em where it hurts. Just don't go for Atma/Animus weapons. I've got one, and one is enough for me. Any other classes, I'll gladly take the alternatives for, knowing that the time and effort put in (loot drop rolls being the one random factor, but to a FAR less severe degree) will give more clear results. The numbers will speak for themselves. If that holds back content, to those who've successfully gotten Atma/Animus weapons, I'm sorry. I would hope it doesn't affect it in the future. But I gave pretty clear examples before. You want their attention on the Atma/Animus issue? Stop GIVING it attention. -
05-27-2014, 12:30 PMDuuude007These two arguments... seem to contradict each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Well, a few points here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
1: This weapon tier was never meant to be skill based.
2: Its not the journey here that is RNG based, it is the reward. Much like the original Ifrit HM. (which was ironically dumbed down to 100% weapon droprate, and still a /dice roll rng to earn that, instead of mostly Dark Matter piles)
3: People seem to like RNG making a comeback in FFXIV, as they are making an optional high-end boss battle which has heavy RNG conditions, as mentioned in the latest live letter.
Welcome to the nature of RPGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
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05-27-2014, 01:02 PMThirdChild_ZKI
I made typo as I was rushing to start a dungeon. I'll fix it later.
As for your other points:
1. Apparently it wasn't meant to be skill based. Which - for ME and ME ONLY - really just invalidated it completely. Especially after I had to get good enough skills to beat HM Primals and grind up tomes from all kinds of different content to get Thavnairian Mists to make my Zenith weapon before. Sure, I'm only speaking for myself, but I'm certain there are plenty of others out there who felt/did the same. Oh well, I'll see what Second Coil has to offer once I get there.
2. So, a journey that takes time, not exactly effort, no skill - not that it was intended to - in order to get a purely random, low probability reward? Which only serves as a gateway to another grind? You're not selling me on this, honestly. Might be fine for some, and I'm not exactly an impatient person, but I can find plenty of other ways to occupy my time.
3. If that's what people want, well, I'm happy to see them deliver. Curiosity might bring me to try that battle, but that, much like FATES, Atma, and some other content that was there from day 1 won't really pull my interest. Mind you, I'm just one person saying this. . . On a larger scale, that won't really mean much. But if my opinion were the majority opinion of most players, would you agree that it'd be of concern for SE?
Lastly, I've played RPGs with worse grinds. Some I stuck with. Others I didn't. Gamers are a fickle lot; I know that all too well. I wouldn't doubt that any of us are lacking for other games to play and enjoy. That's not a "I'm quitting this game" threat; hell, it's not a threat at all. Just a reminder that I'm well aware of what control I have here. I don't have control over the Atma grind, no. But I DO have control over whether I support it, either by accomplishing it, or by even playing FFXIV. I like this game, but I dislike the Atma/Animus system. For that reason, I'm disinterested in the Novus system. <---- Feedback.
But there's plenty else to enjoy, so I'll do just that. -
05-27-2014, 01:24 PMDuuude007Certainly, but how exactly would you quantify that? I doubt even a percent of the players have ever posted in here, let alone voiced a yea-or-neigh opinion. And as we know, complaining is ALWAYS more common than support. A: its easier, B Those who like: play, they tend to not follow stuff in here as much, C: WK stigma, harassment, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
I mean yeah you could do a poll, but refer to B.
Granted. In fact, I believe your exact stance was expected by SE. Some will grind it all now. More will just get their favorite weapon and stop. More still will find another progression path. All valid choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Aside: No single faction of players will always see eye to eye to every other faction. and this MMORPG is meant to be a place where fans of the entire series can find stuff they like to do, no matter which title they liked the most.
Injecting this playstyle into a few facets of the game, while not creating lockouts to explore new areas, is a smart way to add variety. Just like many elements of the tanaka-esque atma are here, FFXII's marks in 2.3, and ffIII's crystal tower, Gilgamesh's FFV similarities. -
05-27-2014, 01:49 PMThirdChild_ZKI
Well said. I'm all for diversity, even if I myself might ever have the more unpopular view. And I'd call it good planning ahead on SE's part to provide alternatives. Took me forever to get into Coil, and now that I am, I love it (human elements aside). That might not be for everyone, but for me, it's a more tangible and rewarding system. That will be MY path forward.
Still, I am all too aware of the sting of the Atma system. Elsewhere, you did mention a "divining rod" concept. I'm interested in this. -
05-27-2014, 06:24 PMJeniLinsky
At least they're unlikely to repeat this particular mechanism going forward. The purpose seems to have been to get experienced players back into the lowbie areas for the PS4 release, and on that level, it worked as intended. And there aren't any other major platform releases coming up anytime soon. So....